Wall st UP, Jobs DOWN

[Takid455]

Trying to figure something out here. While the dow jones and other markets are recovering nicely, the market place in blue collar and white collar occupations is either steady or down. this doesn't make sense or is it all speculation?

Lets try to keep this non political as we can.

discuss.

[Twentyover]

Stock market is driven by fear and greed. Remember , 2 years ago, the Dow was at 14,000- makes the current 9700 look a little lame.

While the market is up from it's low of 6700, they were loosing 2.5 million jobs a month back then. They are losing alot less now, so while the recession is "over" (according to Bernake), traditionally jobs is a trailing feature, so anticipate jbs will be off for a while. So much for a traditional perspective.

My perspective isthat fear drove the march down tto 6700- maybe if truemarket forces were in place, based on value of assets and liabilities, the market wouldn't have crashed that far (can someone explain to me that when a stock misses it's projected dividend, by two bits, it's value falls five bucks?). So I'm not sure we are in a recovery so much as seeking true value of stocks.

The other deal- the forclosure situation- is still in place. The reduced equity due to drop in housing price is weighing on people making purchases- we're just buying essentials and paying down debt (both are good things) Unfortunately, that means people who lost jobs due to fear are not going to be working until we housing values stabilize, we become comfortable with a new norm of comfortable debt level, and consumers start consuming again.

In the interests of transparency, I say this as an out of work mechanical engineer in the automotive industry

[69LT1Nova]

I personally think that the "recovery" will be a jobless one. Greedy Wall Street investors demand high profits from corporations, and corporations have discovered that they wield a tremendous fear factor over their employees - unemployment. So... what have the corporations done? Hacked out millions of jobs, demanded that the remaining workers do the work of those whom they laid off, and take a pay cut while doing it... because "you could be the next one".

Jobs will be hard to come by in the following years, and they will pay less than we are accustomed to... in order to make Wall Street a buck.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

great!... i cant wait!

[69LT1Nova]

great!... i cant wait!

I know... this economy/Wall St. thing is so encouraging. :machine:

I sure hope I'm wrong in my predictions, but from what I've seen... it's extremely depressing.

[Bryce]

i am an Mechanical engineer for an aerospace company. one thing i have noticed is we have cut the weak parts out of our company. Yes this is to improve profit, but it also made us more efficient. i think alot of other companies are using this downturn to cut out the slack.

the reason the stocks are going up is because the companies are more profitable and are beating their expectations. The analysts thought with job cuts they would produce less. which didnt happen.

[John Wright]

i am an Mechanical engineer for an aerospace company. one thing i have noticed is we have cut the weak parts out of our company. Yes this is to improve profit, but it also made us more efficient. i think alot of other companies are using this downturn to cut out the slack.

the reason the stocks are going up is because the companies are more profitable and are beating their expectations. The analysts thought with job cuts they would produce less. which didnt happen.
I'm going to agree with this post^^^^

We had a downsizing here as well, and I saw the same thing with us. We are trying to be more competitive during the bidding process by lightening our overhead every place we can.

[69LT1Nova]

the reason the stocks are going up is because the companies are more profitable and are beating their expectations. The analysts thought with job cuts they would produce less. which didnt happen.

Ah, but I'd still like to maintain that corporations are using FEAR to boost productivity of their remaining workforce. This fear (unemployment) can only produce temporary productivity gains (or sustaining production levels). :enguard:We shall see if productivity/profit stays up. I doubt it. 6 months from now, profit will dive. How can it say up if nobody has a job to buy stuff?

As a fellow engineer, I have seen first hand that with the layoffs, everybody else is expected to pull up the slack... at a reduced pay and/or reduced hours. My personal experience... and it grinds my gears.

[tones2SS]

The good thing about the market being up is, if you have a 401k, like myself, at least that is making money for my retirement.
Since I'm out of a job, the paycheck is less and the interest that banks are offering are crap, so at least, it's one way of making some money.

[John Wright]

everybody else is expected to pull up the slack... at a reduced pay and/or reduced hours. My personal experience... and it grinds my gears.
True, but it is what it is....times are tough all around, the company I work for is in business to make the boss money...period. And as long as he is making money he stays in business which keeps me employed....when he quits making money, my job will dry up and that is just the way it is, whether I like it or not. So I look for ways to help us stay efficient fabricating and welding, "but" without sacrificing the quality of our product. I'm a welding inspector so I have a code of ethics that I have to follow and there is no way I can let the quality slide.

[dogtag]

My Wifie and I employ 31 people in our little business.
We're still trying to figure out how we're going to afford to pay for all their benefits and salaries.
The State, federal and City taxes are raping us into submission.
Wifie and I have been living on our savings for the last six months but don't have the heart to lay everyone off.
We haven't taken a paycheck since May.
Yeah, blame it on us employers for being greedy......

Anyone thought of stopping some of the excessive government spending?
That might allow us to reduce taxes and balance the budget.
We're not asking for a bail out, we just don't want to be suffocated.

Wifie and I are thinking about finally laying every one off and going on government assistance our selves. Not sure who's going to pay our salary though.....Perhaps the greedy employers that are left?

Dogtag

[68sixspeed]

So many factors, because of the cuts companies may be profitable despite the reduction in overall sales since overhead and benefits are down. So they will pay a dividend, people buy the stock.

Another big one, the dollar is way down, a lot of investors outside the US are bargain hunting, if the stock goes uip 20% int he next few years and so does the dollar (say in ref to the Euro or Yen, etc.), then they make money on both the stock and currency.

Last, the market tends to lead a recovery, it is a legal gambling place for what's going to be the situation in 6-12 months.

[Takid455]

many valid points. Often wondered if this current rise is simply due to balancing to true value or simply a speculation and a future crash. although the future is unpredictable, just thinking about when all the gov spending as dogtag mentions catches up and the tax payers are stuck with the debt. not sure how I could pay back 2.xx trillion. along with the lower overhead and same production scenario, I feel there is some speculation involved which will evidently fail. Am I too far out on the limb here?

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

you will pay the trillion debt.. we all will.. with our lives.. if not ours then our childrens.. or childrens children..

either it will be revolution or war... either way.. the debt will be resolved in a drastic way... there is no other way than that..

or its never paid..

[killer69]

hey my
RRSP (401) is up 38% in the last 4 months,gained back almost 1/2 of what i lost the 4 months previous. now all i have to do is try and keep the front door open and all is well...........

yea right!

[dogtag]

I keep reminding myself that the tax season isn't here yet.
Everything might be ok by last years tax assessments but what will they be in the future. Our property taxes on our office building managed to not go down even though our assessed value dropped like a rock, just like our other real estate.

We had to raise our prices quite a bit to keep the doors open this year and it was greeted by lots of complaints and bounced checks from customers.
I hope and pray that things will turn out ok.
I'm just worried sick.

Dogtag

[John Wright]

My Wifie and I employ 31 people in our little business.
We're still trying to figure out how we're going to afford to pay for all their benefits and salaries.
The State, federal and City taxes are raping us into submission.
Wifie and I have been living on our savings for the last six months but don't have the heart to lay everyone off.
We haven't taken a paycheck since May.
Yeah, blame it on us employers for being greedy......

Anyone thought of stopping some of the excessive government spending?
That might allow us to reduce taxes and balance the budget.
We're not asking for a bail out, we just don't want to be suffocated.

Wifie and I are thinking about finally laying every one off and going on government assistance our selves. Not sure who's going to pay our salary though.....Perhaps the greedy employers that are left?

Dogtag
I hear ya man...I can appreciate your position as a business owner, and I want to commend you for looking out after those 31 families in these tough times.

If folks listen to the news media too much they can quickly lose perspective of the goal as an employee of a company, and that is they have to make the boss some money so they can keep them employed.

[protouring70]

I work at a local gum company. And we as the workers aand consumers that are buying the gum have said to them," We need to go back to selling a .35 cent pack of gum!, It's easier to pull the change out of your pocket than to pull your wallet out". They tell us that the bigger pack is a better buy.(this is over a 1$)
Once again, the people who use common sense can't get through to the "over" educated ones!:idea:

Sorry, just felt like :machine:

[Tony_SS]

My Wifie and I employ 31 people in our little business.
We're still trying to figure out how we're going to afford to pay for all their benefits and salaries.
The State, federal and City taxes are raping us into submission.
Wifie and I have been living on our savings for the last six months but don't have the heart to lay everyone off.
We haven't taken a paycheck since May.
Yeah, blame it on us employers for being greedy......

Anyone thought of stopping some of the excessive government spending?
That might allow us to reduce taxes and balance the budget.
We're not asking for a bail out, we just don't want to be suffocated.

Wifie and I are thinking about finally laying every one off and going on government assistance our selves. Not sure who's going to pay our salary though.....Perhaps the greedy employers that are left?

Dogtag

At the same time you might be doing them a disservice.. as their salaries stress the business it could fold and no one will have a job.

I think though, the each and every one of those 31 employees would sacrifice what it would take to keep themselves employed and your doors open.

[dogtag]

We need to go back to selling a .35 cent pack of gum!, It's easier to pull the change out of your pocket than to pull your wallet out".

There's nothing wrong with this idea.
Makes perfect sense, otherwise why are they selling cigarettes by the singles, etc......

Dogtag

[69LT1Nova]

Dogtag,

What I commented on does not apply to small privately owned businesses. IMO - there should be more small business, and it should be encouraged. WA state is one of the worst environments for encouraging business. *not going to go political here, but you know the details*

What is wrong with the system - and what this thread was originally about - is publicly traded companies bending to the whim of greedy Wall St. investors. This pressure from a bunch of greedy eggheads makes life miserable for the working stiffs who happen to be employed by a large company.

[dogtag]

Yeah, I re read the thread.....I'm just wound a bit to tight lately.....LOL.

Dogtag

[69LT1Nova]

No problem. Just didn't want it to look like I'm bashing small business owners. :)

[tones2SS]

My Wifie and I employ 31 people in our little business.
We're still trying to figure out how we're going to afford to pay for all their benefits and salaries.
The State, federal and City taxes are raping us into submission.
Wifie and I have been living on our savings for the last six months but don't have the heart to lay everyone off.
We haven't taken a paycheck since May.
Yeah, blame it on us employers for being greedy......

Anyone thought of stopping some of the excessive government spending?
That might allow us to reduce taxes and balance the budget.
We're not asking for a bail out, we just don't want to be suffocated.

Wifie and I are thinking about finally laying every one off and going on government assistance our selves. Not sure who's going to pay our salary though.....Perhaps the greedy employers that are left?

Dogtag

Dogtag, let me say THANK YOU! to you and your wife for being decent people. (God knows, the crooks in Washington are not!!) I was laid off in March of this year working for a small business, about 100 workers or so. They did all they could to do lay offs last and I appreciate that from them.