Hotchkis TVS vs. DSE

[cobrakillerta]

I'd like to build up a '69 Camaro with an LS3 & T56. I really just want to build a great all-around car that can handle and ride just as well as a C6 (or dare I say even a C6Z06)...

Basically, what would it take?
Would I need an aftermarket sub-frame and rear suspension set-up or will drop springs/control arms/better leafs give me what I'd like out of the car. I just want something that will handle well and still be enjoyable, a 'race-car' set-up is definitely not what I'm looking for.

Checking out the Hotchkis and DSE websites, I came across the Hotchkis TVS kit with Bilsteins and with DSE I though of maybe their drop coils/sway bar/leafs and Koni's...can anyone chime in on these two set-ups?

[daredvl22]

My vote is DSE. You won't regret it.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Well, no matter what you do you will be hard pressed to out engineer the General and his ZO6. Your talking about one of the worlds greatest cars. And if anyone tells you there stuff can out perform a ZO6 in all areas, ride and handling, there blowing smoke up you ass for a sale.


We sell and install 5 different brands of suspension products including both DSE and Hotchkis. We build a lot of F bodies. We most likely have more experience hands on and through sales then anyone with multiple suspension product lines. Also, there are many suspension products we DO NOT sell for various reasons.

So with that out of the way..........

No leaf spring set up, no matter who makes them is going to ride very well, especially in a lowered spring. A leaf spring by it's nature supports weight with arch and spring rate. As you remove arch to lower the car, you have to beef up the springs to support the car, so they ride harsh. More harsh then your ZO6.

Now can you get good handling with them? Yes you can. Either companies you mentioned leafs and coils, combined with sway bars, Good shocks, A Arms and Gulstrand mod, steering box and heavy duty steering components, will give you drastically improved handling, but know in advance it will ride firm. Not uncomfortable, but firm. BTW, there are some brands not mentioned here, NOT DSE or Hotchkis, that do cross the line to uncomfortable and ride VERY hard.

If you want to soften the rear a bit which is the big kidney killer here, you can do a 4 link and really get a nice ride and equal or better handling to any leaf. you will spend a additional $1500 or so on a four link VS a Leaf kit.

The next step of coarse is a aftermarket subframe which will ride nice and has better handling then the best modded subframe. But were talking $5500 to $8000 to the door VS $2800 invested in a stock subframe.

[noobwrench]

No leaf spring set up is going to ride very well,

???? :( gonna have to disagree there. The ride quality on a hotchkis spring is great. At least as good as a factory spring. DSE's kit for first gens is pretty badass though, dont think youll find much better wihtout spending 30-50% more. Worth every penny IMO.

[David Pozzi]

A lot depends on how rough your roads are.

[ProdigyCustoms]

???? :( gonna have to disagree there. The ride quality on a hotchkis spring is great. At least as good as a factory spring.

I sell a ton of Hotchkis stuff and they are my choice for leaf springs. They work plain and simple. But as David mentioned, depending on your roads, you will feel the frimness more then other places. It is real simple math, the spring has less arch and more rate, it rides harder. And we have a guy asking for a C6 ride, and I am not going to BS him. If you ride in a C6, even th4e ZO6 model, you will be quite impressed how well they ride for how great they handle................like some of the 4 links do.

[LowBuckX]

A lot depends on how rough your roads are.
True My hotchkis ride beautiful on perfect roads Which make up 5% of of the roads in my area. Frank hit it on the head with the Kidney buster comment...... Thats why Im fabricating my own 3 link. If I had the money to spend I would do a DSE Quadralink but all offerings from the sponsor list would be good choices.


Z06 perfomance well your aiming high.

[Project69]

Im gonna have to say Global west, had Hotchkis TVS on my 69 and went with the Cat 5 set-up and it rode alot better.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Im gonna have to say Global west, had Hotchkis TVS on my 69 and went with the Cat 5 set-up and it rode alot better.

1st time in the history of the world I heard that. It is always the other way around. GW are famous be being harsh. Part of it may be attributed to the solid front bushing in the GW, but we have had a few change to Hotchkis.

[Project69]

1st time in the history of the world I heard that. It is always the other way around. GW are famous be being harsh. Part of it may be attributed to the solid front bushing in the GW, but we have had a few change to Hotchkis.
Sorry, I should have been more specific.

The Hotchkis was PERFECT for daily driving and at the local auto x. The ride was smoother then the GW set-up by miles but I liked the GW because of the handling it offered over the Hotchkis.

The TVS is the best all around set-up, if your looking for something more GW is what you need.

[David Pozzi]

I found the same, Hotchkis leaf was a good street leaf on smooth roads, a bit rough on rough roads, and a bit soft for higher horsepower cars on a track or autocross. The Cat 5 is a 100 lbs stiffer rate for competition, but the spherical bearing feeds through sharp jolts and you feel and hear them more. Either one has more unsprung weight than a link type rear suspension. I've driven the same roads with stock, Hotchkis and Cat5 leafs, also the Lateral Dynamics 3 link and the 3 link is best riding. I'd assume any link type rear would ride better, still not as good as a full independent rear like a Corvette. Also the Corvette has very soft rubber bushings.

[Rick Dorion]

Good info, David. So the Cat5 is 275#? I have a set of DSE's and 'Betts' on hand. I think the DSE is 175 and Tom had said the Betts design was 230-ish.

[David Pozzi]

Sorry, I didn't give a very accurate number above.

Mono leaf is below 100, stock multi leaf is 100 to 120, Most aftermarket leafs like Hotchkis are 175, GW cat 5 is 240 by my testing, but your results may vary. Multi leafs have a rising rate, so act stiffer on a heavier car.
David

[68sixspeed]

I'd like to build up a '69 Camaro with an LS3 & T56. I really just want to build a great all-around car that can handle and ride just as well as a C6 (or dare I say even a C6Z06)...

Basically, what would it take?


As Frank from Prodigy mentioned, very hard and high bar to reach. My 68 isn't there and it's on coilovers and a ground up custom suspension all 4 corners.

IMO No way to get there on leafs and a stock spring location subframe (i.e. TVS, coilover conversion, etc.) Even with the suspension in check (say DSE/AME front clip, 3 or 4 link out back) the chassis stiffness isn't going to be there without a full cage (12-14pt).

Back on topic, the guys are right, ride stiffness depends on where you drive, I'm in pot-hole heaven and the leafs ride, well like a horse drawn buggy. Southern CA or Florida may be a different story, they don't know what frost is!

-Dan

[Hotchkis]

Lots of good info in here, and we have to agree: Even with an unlimited budget it would be difficult to beat a C6 with an older muscle car. GM has a nine-figure engineering budget, a light rigid platform and a shorter wheelbase. However if you're looking for a bolt-on system that will make a HUGE improvement in the way the car drives and ramp up the fun factor, our TVS works really well. We also have several new 1st and 2nd Gen F-Body parts getting prepped for SEMA that are pretty darn cool. Stay tuned.

[CamaroJesse]

I have DSE 3 inch drop springs and i hate them. I cant stand the way the car rides. plus it has horrible wheel hop.

[Yenko boy]

Do you guys think a car like JA can out perform a Z06 in the handling department?

[68sixspeed]

Do you guys think a car like JA can out perform a Z06 in the handling department?

What's JA?

I might be biased, but not much is going to touch a z even on it's stock runflats it will pull 1.2g in the corners. Ultima GTR, FFR GTM, possibly Ford GT (close), ACR Viper, that's about all that's going to give it a run outside of a high end exotic like a 599 Ferrari.

[bret]

A C6 Corvette rides quite nicely...but is not that hard for a well tuned musclecar to beat on the track. We've done it plenty.
Although a Z06 is a formidable race car, you may want to ride in one for awhile before aspiring to that particular ride quality. My Z06 will corner harder [slightly] than Velocity, but I cuss the ride quality every time I drive it.

To get the best of both worlds [ride quality and cornering performance] you may want to consider an air suspension.

This is a link to the product page
http://www.ridetech.com/products/Chevy_Camaro_67_69_Street_Challenge_Kit-1316-935.html


Here is a video of our 68 Camaro at the Optima Challenge last year. There are more videos on the ridetech TV site:
http://www.ridetechtv.com/featured_landing.php?reset=true

The idea here is that you can set your air pressure and shock valving for the best ride quality [which is where you will likely spend 90% of your time] and then adjust it appropriately for the track...whatever those conditions may be at the time...without changing components.
The downside...it costs more than leafs and coil springs, not as much as a full frame, about the same as any higher end coilover/swaybar/tubular control arm/4 link system.
Don't forget my obvious bias...but don't dismiss the idea because of it either!

We'll be in Pigeon Forge this weekend and at the Optima / RideTech Challenge in Vegas after SEMA if you want to see / ride in the car.

[Yenko boy]

What's JA?

I might be biased, but not much is going to touch a z even on it's stock runflats it will pull 1.2g in the corners. Ultima GTR, FFR GTM, possibly Ford GT (close), ACR Viper, that's about all that's going to give it a run outside of a high end exotic like a 599 Ferrari.

Sorry Charley L's 1969 camaro.

[Lowend]

I've worked with quite a few VERY fast Camaro's they are fun, they can work very well. My 71 was no slouch. But I also learned the limitations.
I don't feel that any solid axle car can really compete with a similarly equipped IRS car on anything but the flattest of surfaces.
Solid Axles hop around too much over bumps and are too heavy

Given the same tires, similar HP, shocks ect... The Vette will be faster