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cheapthrillz
08-26-2009, 10:44 AM
Just wanting to see what all you guys are running for pedal assemblies. The pedals on my Galaxie are shot, so I'll be replacing them. Any advantages to running specific types, styles, or brands of pedals? I'll have to get the clutch, brake, & gas pedal assemblies probably, so I'm just looking at my options. Thanks in advance.

cheapthrillz
08-27-2009, 04:43 AM
I know most of you just run your stock pedals, but I know JP used Tilton Eng. pedals in II Much but I couldn't find a finished picture or the style that he used.

Tilton's website: http://www.tiltonracing.com/content.php?page=list2&id=1&m=b

I know Wilwood makes pedal assemblies too.

Anybody have any luck with either of these companies?

parsonsj
08-27-2009, 05:57 AM
JC, I started with using a Tilton remote pedal setup, and my own fabricated pedals.

See pgs 18-20 of Tilton's brake catalog. My setup is dual pedals and 3 masters, and it seems that Tilton doesn't offer that any more; they only offer a 1 pedal dual MC setup.

But you can see a drawing of my exact part on pg 20, along with some fabrication suggestions.

It's complicated, but it turns out that I'm actually using a Wilwood part (I removed all Tilton parts at their request). I got a Wilwood dual pedal assembly and turned it upside down and backwards, and adapted the Tilton fulcrums and balance bar to it. Added my own pedals and their own hangers and linkage.

Which means... I've still got the Tilton part pictured on pg 20. You can get all the linkage parts and build your own remote pedal assembly.

Pictures are difficult... since it is all buried under my dash, but I'll try and snag something for you if you want.

jp

cheapthrillz
08-27-2009, 07:06 AM
JC, I started with using a Tilton remote pedal setup, and my own fabricated pedals.

See pgs 18-20 of Tilton's brake catalog. My setup is dual pedals and 3 masters, and it seems that Tilton doesn't offer that any more; they only offer a 1 pedal dual MC setup.

But you can see a drawing of my exact part on pg 20, along with some fabrication suggestions.

It's complicated, but it turns out that I'm actually using a Wilwood part (I removed all Tilton parts at their request). I got a Wilwood dual pedal assembly and turned it upside down and backwards, and adapted the Tilton fulcrums and balance bar to it. Added my own pedals and their own hangers and linkage.

Which means... I've still got the Tilton part pictured on pg 20. You can get all the linkage parts and build your own remote pedal assembly.

Pictures are difficult... since it is all buried under my dash, but I'll try and snag something for you if you want.

jp

JP,

What are the advantages and disadvantages to running a remote setup? Currently, the '65 Galaxie has 2 stamped steel braces running parallel with the ground under the dash, and the pedals are supported by a rod and bushings running through the braces. The bushing is worn out and the rod has broken off one of the braces, so I need to do something. I figured I would spend my money on a nice pedal setup instead of trying to fix the 44 year old factory junk.

What are the advantages/disadvantages to running floor mount vs. firewall mount vs. reversed firewall mount vs. overhung pedals?

Also, why did tilton "recommend" that you remove their parts?

Sorry for all of the questions. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about everything.

When I build the car, I want it to perform well, but no car can perform well if you are not comfortable when you drive it. Therefore, I want to make the "driving" aspect of the car as use-able as possible...

parsonsj
08-27-2009, 07:43 AM
I agree: pedals is an important of the driving experience. Getting that right will make a difference in your driving experience.

Wilwood asked me to remove the Tilton parts. Wilwood is a sponsor of my car. :)

Look at pg 20 of the current Tilton catalogue... that will explain what a remote pedal setup is, and why it's the best way for factory firewall/floored cars.

We can go from there.

jp

cheapthrillz
08-27-2009, 10:08 AM
The adjustable mount looks alot like what I have now, so that would probably be the easiest to install. I will pull the carpet back and try to snap some pictures of what I've got. I don't mind fabricating the floor to do a floor mount (or firewall mount for that matter), but I don't know the performance differences between the different styles of pedals.

I have driven Porsches with the floor mount pedals, and they are awkward, but after a while, you get used to it. When you drive a truck or some vehicle with a long clutch pedal stroke, you end up using your upper leg more so than your ankle. Performance-ly speaking, I would think the floor mount would be the "fastest", "least movement" stroke, but I don't know what the disadvantages would be.

I know that pedal size and distance between the pedals makes a difference in the amount time it takes to move your toe to the brake pedal.

Tobin @ Kore3 is helping me out with the brakes, and he said that he usually recomends the Wilwood Universal 7/8" bore MC, but either way, I will have to get a new MC...

wingman
08-27-2009, 01:40 PM
JC,
I just went through the same exercise with a hotrod I'm building. Whether floor mount or swing, mc inside, under the floor or under the dash. I finally decided on swinging pedals with the mc's under the dash (to keep the firewall clean) Wilwood's setup is really nice, they were really helpful about mc sizes and mounting. That's my .02.

cheapthrillz
08-27-2009, 03:48 PM
JC,
I just went through the same exercise with a hotrod I'm building. Whether floor mount or swing, mc inside, under the floor or under the dash. I finally decided on swinging pedals with the mc's under the dash (to keep the firewall clean) Wilwood's setup is really nice, they were really helpful about mc sizes and mounting. That's my .02.

Thanks Hans. I will definitely be in touch with Wilwood and Tilton trying to figure this out. I was just trying to see what the pro-touring community thought about pedal design. Maybe I need to be thinking about this from a racing stand point like JP instead of a streetcar standpoint.

parsonsj
08-27-2009, 03:51 PM
JC,

Are you going to use a balance bar setup with dual masters? That's probably the first question to answer.

jp

cheapthrillz
08-27-2009, 04:13 PM
JC,

Are you going to use a balance bar setup with dual masters? That's probably the first question to answer.

jp

HaHa.... I have NO idea. That's why I'm asking all of these questions. What would you recommend and why? I've never researched into braking systems, so I don't know what is best for specific applications.

The car will be a manual w/ 4 wheel disks from Kore3 (hopefully!)

parsonsj
08-27-2009, 06:09 PM
Well...

Balance bar setups are superior to traditional dual master cylinders with a proportioning valve. Here's some tech:

http://www.stockcarproducts.com/tech1k.htm

You need to see if you can package 3 masters (1 for front brakes, 1 for rear brakes, 1 for clutch) in your firewall/under dash area.

If you can't fit the masters in the space, no sense in pursuing a balance bar setup. If you can fit them, I'd recommend it. You'll be able to get better brake performance and superior tuning.

jp

MCMLXIX
08-27-2009, 09:03 PM
I was looking into this as well. I will probably go with the Wilwood pedals and I plan on smoothing my firewall. I need to figure out if I want the MC in the engin bay or under the dash. Under is cleaner but would be a PIA to fill / maintain. Project Re-Peeled documented on this site used Wilwood pedals and and Ididt column. Here are some pics and a link to the thread... https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53048

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/3332348908_75af0ce447-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/3332348570_79c345c1e4-1.jpg

Here are the part numbers:
The pedal assembly part # 340-3950
master cylinder part # 260-10372 for 3/4in. bore
master cylinder part # 260-10374 for 7/8 in. bore
master cylinder part # 260-10375 for 1 in. bore

Here is a link to the .pdf instructions for 340-3950
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/340-3950.pdf

Here is a pic of the reverse mount pedals. (MCs under the dash = smooth firewall)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/wil3403342_cp-1.jpg

parsonsj
08-28-2009, 05:18 AM
The main problem with the pre-fab'ed pedal setups is that they make a basic tenant of proper machine-human interface difficult.

Have a look at any OEM pedal setup, and note where the brake pedal is in relation to the steering wheel. You'll find that in nearly all cases, the brake pedal center is directly under the wheel. The Wilwood and Tilton pedals are high quality pieces, but I've never figured out how to package them to allow the brake pedal/steering wheel relationship to be where it needs to be.

jp

Payton King
08-28-2009, 06:57 AM
Tilton remote set ups and never used it. It is for a dual master with balance bar. Still in the box...if you need one

I had a guy fab up a dual master with balance bar using my existing camaro stuff.

cheapthrillz
08-29-2009, 04:10 PM
This is what it looks like now....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSCF0522-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSCF0523-1.jpg

JayR
08-30-2009, 10:31 AM
Have you guys seen the pedal assembly from Clayton Machine? http://claytonmachine.com/prd_pedals_directboltin.html

The thing is frickin' jewelry.

cheapthrillz
08-30-2009, 03:25 PM
Have you guys seen the pedal assembly from Clayton Machine? http://claytonmachine.com/prd_pedals_directboltin.html

The thing is frickin' jewelry.

Yea I remember those, they're sharp! I bet they don't have an application for '65 Galaxies tho.

parsonsj
08-30-2009, 05:40 PM
JC,

Based on that picture, you could adapt the factory brake pedal to work with the Tilton remote assembly. Your existing pushrod could be used... the only issue I see is that the balance bar assembly would be in the engine compartment, and I don't know how much room you have.

jp

The WidowMaker
08-30-2009, 08:06 PM
my plan is to use the wilwood triple master pedal setup with the mc's in the engine compartment on my 70 chevelle. im shaving the firewall, but i love the mechanical look of them, so no need to hide them. i have no idea what its going to take to mount the pedal setup, but i plan on fabbing up some brackets and reinforcing the firewall a ton.

im going to use the wilwood masters with the aluminum reservoirs since i dont like the plastic ones.

Tim

cheapthrillz
08-31-2009, 05:49 AM
JC,

Based on that picture, you could adapt the factory brake pedal to work with the Tilton remote assembly. Your existing pushrod could be used... the only issue I see is that the balance bar assembly would be in the engine compartment, and I don't know how much room you have.

jp

I will snap a picture of the engine bay when I get home from work today.

69stang
08-31-2009, 08:47 AM
I was looking into the whole pedal thing lately. I pulled the pedal support out of my mustang last week and have been cleaning up all the pieces and painting them. I planned on going with mustangsteve's bearing kit (http://www.mustangsteve.com/clutchbearings.html) to replace the bushings in the pedal support bracket. Might be another option for you as the bracket is similar and I would guess the shaft and bushings are the same size.

cheapthrillz
08-31-2009, 09:00 AM
I was looking into the whole pedal thing lately. I pulled the pedal support out of my mustang last week and have been cleaning up all the pieces and painting them. I planned on going with mustangsteve's bearing kit (http://www.mustangsteve.com/clutchbearings.html) to replace the bushings in the pedal support bracket. Might be another option for you as the bracket is similar and I would guess the shaft and bushings are the same size.

Awesome! That is exactly what is wrong with mine, but instead of spending $90 to fix it, I'm going to look into new pedals that come with the ball bearing shaft... Thanks for the link!

cheapthrillz
08-31-2009, 12:30 PM
Here is how my MC is currently... Looks like there is a good bit of room.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSCF0530-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSCF0529-1.jpg

parsonsj
08-31-2009, 12:39 PM
Oh yeah. I'd go get one of the Tilton remote setups, (either new or used)
and hook it up to your existing pedals. Just make sure your pedal ratio is about 6:1, and that should work very very well.

jp

cheapthrillz
08-31-2009, 06:22 PM
Oh yeah. I'd go get one of the Tilton remote setups, (either new or used)
and hook it up to your existing pedals. Just make sure your pedal ratio is about 6:1, and that should work very very well.

jp

You think I should go with the balance bar too? How street-able is a balance bar setup, or is it strictly a race set-up. My car will see A LOT more street than it will track, so I have to make sure that it will work to the best of its ability in any weather condition or road surface.

I guess I could go ahead and get crackin on the pedals (better finish up the radiator install first tho).

parsonsj
08-31-2009, 06:52 PM
Exactly. A balance bar allows you to get the right amount of bias towards the front brakes, and uses two separate master cylinders. It's a far superior method for manual brakes, both for safety and performance.

jp

AButler
08-31-2009, 08:31 PM
Isn't there a way to adapt two masters to the original pedals. I was sold on the wilwood set up till I just saw the clayton pedals those things are amazing but I still want 2 masters

parsonsj
09-01-2009, 04:23 AM
Isn't there a way to adapt two masters to the original pedals?Yes. It's what we've been talking about: Tilton's remote pedal setup.

AButler
09-01-2009, 09:17 AM
John
How did you attach the pedal to the balance bar linkage. Is that stud that points toward the pedal threaded? I can't tell in their pictures

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 09:47 AM
Ok, heres the deal. In correlation with JP and Tobin @ Kore3, a balance bar set-up w/ dual MC's (although not easy to install) would be best for my car (as a streetfighter build).

Question for John: You keep referring to remote pedal/remote assembly/remote setup, what exactly is remote? The resevoir? The MC? I assume you're talking about the MCs not being mounted to the pedal assembly (instead they're mounted on the firewall) correct?

How much of my stock components would be retained if any? I'm trying to get a cost picture and checklist in my head of what I will need.

What is my next researching step?

parsonsj
09-01-2009, 10:24 AM
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/IMG_4027JPG-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/IMG_4082JPG-1.jpg

Have a look at these photos. This is an early prototype of my remote pedal setup. My actual pedals are full custom fabricated instead of the goofy method you see here, but the remote part is the same. On the lower photo, the whole setup is upside and backwards in the photo.

The pedals themselves are not part of the master cylinder assembly. They are connected by a pushrod to the assembly, which is why they are called remote. The cast part you see is the Tilton frame, and is what the masters and balance bar are attached to.

jp

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 10:34 AM
I think I can answer my own question. The remote part is the balance bar assembly right?

I refurbish my pivot point and install the balance bar in place of the original MC pushrod and install 2 new MCs w/ 2 new pushrods in place of the stock single (in the engine bay).

Then when the time comes, get another MC for the hydraulic clutch if I go that way.

Correct me if I am wrong. If not, I need to figure out the bore of the master cylinders in relation to my braking system (which is not decided yet).

Then install it on the car while making proper adjustments to stroke length.

Also, would installing a proportioning valve in the rear circuit be a good idea to have further adjustment on the rear prake pressure?

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 11:06 AM
OH GOD..... My head is spinning in circles!

So I cant use the remote mount unless I A) move/redesign the pedals or B) fab it to fit on the firewall.

Can't use the overhung or firewall mount (right now) because it has 2 pedals and I don't have a hydraulic clutch right now....

parsonsj
09-01-2009, 11:13 AM
The remote part is the balance bar assembly right?Yes, along with the master cylinders.


refurbish my pivot point and install the balance bar in place of the original MC pushrod and install 2 new MCs w/ 2 new pushrods in place of the stock single (in the engine bay).

Then when the time comes, get another MC for the hydraulic clutch if I go that way. Correct. I would only add that the sideways spacing of the masters in relation to the balance bar is important.


Correct me if I am wrong. If not, I need to figure out the bore of the master cylinders in relation to my braking system (which is not decided yet). I think you've got it. The nice thing now is that you are free to size your masters based on the size of the corresponding brakes, rather than to find the best compromise between the fronts and backs.


Then install it on the car while making proper adjustments to stroke length. Yes, but most master cylinders are based on a 1" or 1.1" stroke.


Also, would installing a proportioning valve in the rear circuit be a good idea to have further adjustment on the rear prake pressure?No need. The balance bar will provide what you want to bias the brakes properly.

jp

parsonsj
09-01-2009, 11:16 AM
JC,

Have another look at Payton King's post (#14 on page 1). His photo is very good.

jp

The WidowMaker
09-01-2009, 12:26 PM
anybody have install pics of the pedal/triple master setup?

i guess it still seems easier to me to just fit an entirely new setup, vs using old and new parts and making them work. i know for the remote setup its only supposed to be attaching pushrods to the pedals and getting them lined up with the master. but, the masters are attached to the pedals on the non remote assembly.

reinforce the firewall, attach the mounting plate, mount the pedals and attach the masters..... besides packaging, what am i missing?

Tim

parsonsj
09-01-2009, 12:37 PM
Tim,

The packaging is a big deal. As I mentioned above, proper ergonomics has the brake pedal directly below the steering wheel. The full pedal setups make that difficult with a factory column. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it done.

Other considerations are brake light sensor, clutch depression sensor, pedal movement and feel, and integration with the throttle pedal.

With a factory dash, firewall, floor, steering column, and throttle, integrating a balance bar into the factory setup seems easier to me.

jp

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 02:54 PM
Well........... I guess I'll be up for any packaging of the pedals because I well.............. I did this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSCF0532-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSCF0534-1.jpg

To get this---------------------

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSCF0531-1.jpg

parsonsj
09-01-2009, 02:56 PM
Dude... Uncle Vernon is never gonna buy that car now. :)

jp

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 02:58 PM
And I wonder why the pedals didn't half work

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSCF0537-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSCF0538-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSCF0535-1.jpg

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 03:01 PM
Apparently the first piece of anything that they put in the interior of these cars was the pedal support. Then they wrap everything else around this one piece a dozen times....

I hate how something small like brakes turns into a new interior. I might as well say screw trying to keep this thing on the road and tear it all the way down....

Ugh... I hate cars

parsonsj
09-01-2009, 03:01 PM
That's good. An easy thing to fix. Now you need to weld in your balance bar to the brake pedal at the 6:1 ratio spot, mount up your master cylinders so the geometry is right and you have an inch of push-rod travel, and you're good to go.

jp

parsonsj
09-01-2009, 03:03 PM
The pedal support is ultra-important to your safety. That's why they do indeed go in first, because they have to bolt securely to the firewall because you want the pushrod moving when you press on the brake pedal... not the firewall moving.

jp

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 03:56 PM
That's good. An easy thing to fix. Now you need to weld in your balance bar to the brake pedal at the 6:1 ratio spot, mount up your master cylinders so the geometry is right and you have an inch of push-rod travel, and you're good to go.

jp

So you're saying retain the stock pedals and assembly but relocate the pivot point on the mount to fit in the balance bar?

Or fab up a new mount and everything?

I'm not sure if I want to go back with that dash or not yet... what about including a roll cage? Do I incorporate the pedal mount into that too?

JP, I saw your car a few years back at Road Atlanta for the yearone Bandit Run before I was a member of this site and fell in love with it. I told Wes (Formula) that one day the Galaxie would be that bad ass, and I still mean it.

69stang
09-01-2009, 06:03 PM
And I wonder why the pedals didn't half work

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSCF0537-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSCF0538-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSCF0535-1.jpg

Cheap,
My original bracket was like that and the shaft was worn half through. I'm now rebuilding my replacement that's been in the car for awhile.

I was gonna use the adjustable proportioning valve I already have but I think I'll go this route now. I'm going hyd clutch anyhow.

AButler
09-01-2009, 06:11 PM
JP, I saw your car a few years back at Road Atlanta for the yearone Bandit Run before I was a member of this site and fell in love with it. I told Wes (Formula) that one day the Galaxie would be that bad ass, and I still mean it.

John now you gotta fly out there and build this set up for him. Just think it practice for when II Much sells and you gotta do another over the top project that makes us all say wow

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 06:28 PM
John now you gotta fly out there and build this set up for him. Just think it practice for when II Much sells and you gotta do another over the top project that makes us all say wow

haha! How awesome would that be! Or maybe I should just buy II Much and be done with it.... If only I had that kinda money....

The WidowMaker
09-01-2009, 07:26 PM
well, i was going to sell my brand new opg pedals, but i guess i'll hold on to them. i have some mocking up to do.........

btw, just checked out the pedals on my 70 chevelle, and they are much like those on the OP's car; they drop down to the left of the steering column, and the brake pedal bows to the right around the steering column to end up right underneath it. but, the one thing i have never liked about the wilwood/tilton pedals was their size. with the issue of the brake pedal and gas pedal now being further apart it might lend the opportunity to make the pad much bigger, and more stock appearing. if it was extended about 1.5" - 2" futher to the right, it would almost place it in a stock position. the only other option would be to make a brake pedal to replace the straight shaft of the wilwood setup, but at that pt, its almost better to just use the remote setup.

Tim

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 07:37 PM
That's good. An easy thing to fix. Now you need to weld in your balance bar to the brake pedal at the 6:1 ratio spot, mount up your master cylinders so the geometry is right and you have an inch of push-rod travel, and you're good to go.

jp

John, thanks for letting me stew for a bit. I think we're on the same page now. My next question would be: What do I do about balance bar interference with the clutch pedal? If the smallest balance bar that tilton offers is 4.75 in long, I will definitely have interference. Do I redesign the clutch pedal or relocate the balance bar? Redesigning the clutch pedal would be the cheapest route for sure....hmmmm I guess I've got more reading to do.

1) Fix the worn out bushing
2) Weld the balance bar into the brake pedal at the 6/1 point & correct clutch interference issuse
3) Size MC bores
4) Fit the MCs correctly on the firewall and extend the pushrods to the balance bar.
5) Reattach clutch linkage

formula
09-01-2009, 07:47 PM
this is some serious sh*t! I'm coming over tomorrow and we're nailing down the plan and all the details on this.

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 07:53 PM
this is some serious sh*t! I'm coming over tomorrow and we're nailing down the plan and all the details on this.

At least there will be one brain functioning tomorrow.... And it most definitely wont be mine

parsonsj
09-01-2009, 07:58 PM
Hey guys, thanks for the nice words about my car.

I'm glad we're all talking the same pedal language now! Anyway, JC, I think your plan is workable, and moving the clutch arm shouldn't be too hard. You can weld the balance bar off center (towards the throttle), but just remember the masters will have to move over accordingly.

About the roll cage: if you do plan on putting one in, hanging your pedal assembly from the dash bar (or under dash bar) is definitely the way to go.

jp

cheapthrillz
09-01-2009, 08:24 PM
Hey guys, thanks for the nice words about my car.

I'm glad we're all talking the same pedal language now! Anyway, JC, I think your plan is workable, and moving the clutch arm shouldn't be too hard. You can weld the balance bar off center (towards the throttle), but just remember the masters will have to move over accordingly.

About the roll cage: if you do plan on putting one in, hanging your pedal assembly from the dash bar (or under dash bar) is definitely the way to go.

jp

I brought the pedal assembly in and did some measuring. The pedal ratio stock is 6.4:1 (assuming the MC had a 1" stroke that would be 6.4" pedal travel), but there is no way in hell to put the balance bar there OR anywhere on this side of the firewall inline with the brake pedal. The balance bar mounting point would be up in the pedal pedal support as you can see in this picture:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSCF0541-1.jpg

Now what?

cheapthrillz
09-02-2009, 04:59 AM
Do I cut the pedal support to fit the balance bar? or go ahead and start researching for the roll cage?

parsonsj
09-02-2009, 05:21 AM
Well... this is a turn for the worse. :(

If you cut it, you'll need to add reinforcements to put the strength back. I wouldn't get signed up for a roll cage yet... so I'd at least see if there's a way to use most of the pedal support.

jp

cheapthrillz
09-02-2009, 05:29 AM
Well... this is a turn for the worse. :(

If you cut it, you'll need to add reinforcements to put the strength back. I wouldn't get signed up for a roll cage yet... so I'd at least see if there's a way to use most of the pedal support.

jp

I guess I could move the balance bar down on the pedal and have like a 5:1 pedal ratio, but that is going to require a lot more pedal effort for braking..... Have any thoughts about that? I would still have to relocate/redesign the clutch pedal though.

parsonsj
09-02-2009, 05:39 AM
No. With manual brakes, pedal ratio is the key. 5:1 will get old fast.

After looking over the pics again, I'd cut 1 to 1.5" out of the pedal support "height", and somehow keep the lower lip.

Or: make a jig from your original pedal support, and fabricate a new tubular-style one that will still bolt in, have the strength you need, and maintain the right geometry.

One thought: is it the clutch that caused the wear since it was mounted in single shear? Maybe you can fix that too...

There is a *lot* of engineering in pedals!

jp

cheapthrillz
09-02-2009, 06:04 AM
No. With manual brakes, pedal ratio is the key. 5:1 will get old fast.

After looking over the pics again, I'd cut 1 to 1.5" out of the pedal support "height", and somehow keep the lower lip.

Or: make a jig from your original pedal support, and fabricate a new tubular-style one that will still bolt in, have the strength you need, and maintain the right geometry.

One thought: is it the clutch that caused the wear since it was mounted in single shear? Maybe you can fix that too...

There is a *lot* of engineering in pedals!

jp

I may go the tubular route and set up a jig....What would you recommend material wise for the support? DOM?

Yes the clutch caused the wear. You can see the pic of the clutch mount shaft has a worn spot in where it was rubbing on the support after the plastic bushing wore out.

parsonsj
09-02-2009, 06:39 AM
Sure. DOM tube will be fine. Even cheap electric weld tube will work. Consider square or rectangular tubing... it may be easier to fab with.

jp

cheapthrillz
09-02-2009, 07:20 AM
Sure. DOM tube will be fine. Even cheap electric weld tube will work. Consider square or rectangular tubing... it may be easier to fab with.

jp

The hard part will be designing it to fit around the balance bar and relocate the clutch pedal. What should I keep in mind when doing the clutch pedal? Disassociate it from the brake? New ball bearings for both pedals @ the pivot point? Keep the steering wheel mounted in the same location? Bore holes for the masters?

cheapthrillz
09-03-2009, 06:18 AM
I pulled the dash the rest of the way out yesterday, so I'm going to reinstall the stock pedal support and see EXACTLY what I have to work with. Will keep you all updated and post some pictures...

JP, should I disassociate the clutch from the brake pivot and run Grade 8 bolts or something?

parsonsj
09-03-2009, 06:56 AM
JC, I'd sure take a look at the clutch, though you will never ever in your whole life put as many miles on that car that wore it to begin with. If you mean to use grade 8 bolts as a pivot, that's better than nothing. I'd definitely look into a bushing setup for that.

jp

AButler
09-03-2009, 10:41 AM
John
if doing a setup similar to Paytons how far can you offset the balance bar before causing issues. It appears the tilton setup is 4.75" long and that is a whole lot of horizonal parts to package between the pedals. So my main idea is could I mount it at the edge of the shell that they supply to weld in. There by moving it a good distance towards the gas pedal

Payton King
09-03-2009, 12:06 PM
The balance bar sleve needs to be centered on the brake pedal along with have the correct alignment on the masters...as in the rods need to push as straight as possible into the masters. we had to modify the pedals on my set up.

You would be miles ahead of the game to bite the bullet and buy a Tilton pedal assembly, modify your fire wall and pedal to make it fit.

Damn True
09-03-2009, 12:17 PM
What did you do to the pedals themselves?

parsonsj
09-03-2009, 12:19 PM
Payton,

The masters need to line up with the balance bar sleeve. If you offset the sleeve, you also need to offset the masters. In order to gain clutch pedal arm clearance, that's what I think might work: move the balance bar and brake master cylinders towards the throttle.

jp

cheapthrillz
09-03-2009, 08:09 PM
Payton,

The masters need to line up with the balance bar sleeve. If you offset the sleeve, you also need to offset the masters. In order to gain clutch pedal arm clearance, that's what I think might work: move the balance bar and brake master cylinders towards the throttle.

jp

JP, I think the best solution I can come up with would be to get the remote balance bar from Payton and mount it on the engine side of the firewall with a bracket to hold it and the MC's up. Then run the stock pushrod to the balance bar through the firewall. Repair and retain the stock support and pedals. That's the best I can do for now and have it work properly without too much fab work. Maybe later I can incorporate it into the cage...

cheapthrillz
09-08-2009, 05:29 AM
I'm going to get the balance bar from Payton and do as I stated in my last post unless anybody has any reason for me not to do it.....

parsonsj
09-08-2009, 05:34 AM
JC,

I think that's a great solution. Having that part in your hands will allow you to work out something trick.

Be sure and post pics.

jp

Payton King
09-08-2009, 05:46 AM
When we did mine. We left the brake pedal alone (stock configuration) and put the balance tube as close to the top as we could. This still only netted a 6:1 ratio. The stock brace that holds the pedals was modified where it hits the fire wall for the 2 masters and I redrilled the holes on the firewall.

We had to modify the clutch pedal to clear the balance bar set-up as you can see in the above post with the picture. By moving it out and around we had to modify the mount for the stock GM clutch master.

Anyway big pain in the a$$, in hindsight, I would have bought the Tilton brake and clutch pedal assembly. Modified my firewall and the tilton pedals to get around the steering column.

formula
09-08-2009, 06:04 AM
When we did mine. We left the brake pedal alone (stock configuration) and put the balance tube as close to the top as we could. This still only netted a 6:1 ratio. The stock brace that holds the pedals was modified where it hits the fire wall for the 2 masters and I redrilled the holes on the firewall.

We had to modify the clutch pedal to clear the balance bar set-up as you can see in the above post with the picture. By moving it out and around we had to modify the mount for the stock GM clutch master.

Anyway big pain in the a$$, in hindsight, I would have bought the Tilton brake and clutch pedal assembly. Modified my firewall and the tilton pedals to get around the steering column.

You say only 6:1--my understanding was that was about right-ish for a manual setup? Should we be aiming higher on JC's car? Stock on his car is right around 6.0-6.1:1...

parsonsj
09-08-2009, 06:18 AM
6:1 is what is recommeded by Wilwood and Tilton.


Anyway big pain in the a$$, in hindsight, I would have bought the Tilton brake and clutch pedal assembly. Modified my firewall and the tilton pedals to get around the steering column.I think that would have even more work, especially if you wanted good ergonomics. I know this because I tried to do that, and I had custom (read: flat) firewall and floor surfaces. It is no trivial matter to get the brake and steering column in proper alignment, especially with a stock column. In the end, I remain convinced that the Tilton remote pedal setup adapted to factory pedals is the best option for our cars.

jp

ps: I have some Wilwood pedals lying arond if anybody wants to mess with them.

formula
09-08-2009, 07:26 AM
6:1 is what is recommeded by Wilwood and Tilton.

I think that would have even more work, especially if you wanted good ergonomics. I know this because I tried to do that, and I had custom (read: flat) firewall and floor surfaces. It is no trivial matter to get the brake and steering column in proper alignment, especially with a stock column. In the end, I remain convinced that the Tilton remote pedal setup adapted to factory pedals is the best option for our cars.

jp

ps: I have some Wilwood pedals lying arond if anybody wants to mess with them.

How much ya want for the pedals, jp?

cheapthrillz
09-08-2009, 07:38 AM
You say only 6:1--my understanding was that was about right-ish for a manual setup? Should we be aiming higher on JC's car? Stock on his car is right around 6.0-6.1:1...

Stock on mine is about 6.5:1 if I remember correctly. That just means less pedal effort (more torque) but more pedal stroke...

The WidowMaker
09-08-2009, 09:07 AM
i guess i still dont understand why its that big of a deal to offset the pedals. with a 2" diameter steering column, 1/4" clearance btwn the pedal arm and column, and a 1/2" thick pedal arm, youre only 1.5" off from stock. if you widen the pedal to make it more like stock (ive got size 15's, so i like wide pedals anyways), most of that can be made up.

what i dont like is the setup posted that split the clutch and brake around the column. for my application, that would put the brake and gas too close together.

im wondering if wilwood would ever make a pedal that swings to the right like a stock pedal arm. it would be worth a call to see if they have anything in the works........

btw, just throwing out ideas since i dont acutally have the parts in hand to see how they would work.

Tim

The WidowMaker
09-08-2009, 09:09 AM
pm sent on pedals

Payton King
09-08-2009, 11:13 AM
Here is a real good calculator that Ron Derrad showed me

http://www.jakelatham.com/radical/info/brake_calculators.shtml

Ron and I had conversation back and forth for months on braking systems. At the time my pedal ratio was 5.4:1 and I could barely get my car to stop.

I modified mine to 6:1 and would have gone higher if I could. With my current ratio I sized my masters to 5/8's on front and 3/4 on rear. This is at the edge of being too small, but I was trying to get my pedal effort down and my pressure at the caliper up. With the above I am getting 1200 psi on the front and 1100 psi on the rear with a very hard push...(100lbs I am guessing) with the bar centered. I am guessing my car weighs 3400 lbs and I have 6/4 piston Wilwoods with 13 inch rotors. I am running a BP-10 pad and the cf .40 cold.

Now remember that when you push the pedal 100 lbs that force is split between the two masters. 50 lbs each. Move the balance bar and it maybe you get 70lbs on one and 30 lbs on the other.

So what does all this rambling mean and where am I going? I would like to have a little larger masters which would require more pedal ratio...but I am at the max with my system. I tried a set of race pads with good cold bite. Wilwood "B" pads. The cf is .49 cold. Huge difference in braking, but too agressive for everyday street use.

Master sizing, pedal ratio and piston area are all big parts to getting your braking system right. Heavy cars are going to take a lot of leg pressure to stop. Use the calculator at the top of this post and spend some time to science out your system. By using the remote set-up you should be able to change the ratio just by drilling new holes in the brake pedal, which will make it easier.

formula
09-08-2009, 12:55 PM
wow! that calculator is absolutely golden!

cheapthrillz
09-09-2009, 05:06 AM
Spoke with Steve Wilkes at MustangSteve.com and his ball bearing kit will fit my car, so I will order that today and go ahead and get it on the way so that I will have everything needed to fab the bracket for the balance bar.

cheapthrillz
09-12-2009, 07:11 PM
Ordered the Ball bearing kit this past week. Waiting on it to come in.

Picked up the remote balance bar from Payton today after going to the Charlotte Auto Fair (50th anniversary for Galaxie). I want to give a shout out to Payton. Great guy and I appreciate the deal!

I will keep you guys updated in the next few steps, but then it will probably be a while before I get the MCs because I haven't decided on the brake setup yet.

Payton King
09-14-2009, 09:16 AM
Sorry that I was in such a rush. I had people waiting on me to get back with the alernator for the project we were working on.

See y'all at RTTH

cheapthrillz
09-14-2009, 10:11 AM
Sorry that I was in such a rush. I had people waiting on me to get back with the alernator for the project we were working on.

See y'all at RTTH

Sure thing!

MCMLXIX
09-18-2009, 12:18 AM
I have been following this thread.. and I just came across this so I thought I would put it out there....

http://customworksproducts.com/7243.html

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/dual20master20set20up-1.jpg

Racing Dual Master Cylinder with Balance Bar- a must if not using a booster!

Dual master with balance bar $349 this is for manual brakes only and different size master cylinders can be used to optimize front and rear brake pressures. Balance bar replaces proportioning valve and can infinitly adjust brake bias. This is the only way I could get great performance out of a manual brake system (no power booster) Mounts to stock location and uses stock push rod.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/IMG_0033JPG-1.jpg

69stang
09-18-2009, 07:03 AM
MCMLXIX,
I've been following this thread also, trying to figure out my system. That's exactly what I need for mine. Excellent find, thanks. :yeah:

MCMLXIX
09-19-2009, 02:15 AM
Just to throw some more fuel on the fire... this little bit is on eBay now for $0.01 cent with one bid and no reserve.... good luck...:machine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270455674305&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/BUrfUwBmkKGrHgoOKiYEjlLmfcsHBKrBkrt4w_12-1.jpg

This is a Tilton Model 72-280 Brake Bias / Balance Bar that we were going to use on a formula SAE car but never finished it. It has a few scratches but just from being moved from box to box with other parts. It's still in like new functional condition.


Balance Bars for rear-pivoting master cylinders
Tilton's new low-friction brake balance bar system is designed to reduce friction within the pedal/master cylinder system, providing repeatable braking and exceptional feedback to the driver. Designed for use Tilton's rear-pivoting 77-Series master cylinders (http://www.tiltonracing.com/content.php?page=list2&id=25&m=b), this balance bar's unqiue mounting system enables it to be adapted to a variety of applications.
Features:
- 7/16" diameter
- Needle bearings ride on hard ground surfaces at all pivots for smooth operation
- 3-position adjustable ratios (6.2:1; 5.3:1 & 4.7:1)
- Longer front brake clevis enables increased front master cylinder stroke, while keeping balance bar square under braking.
- 14 turns of total adjustment. Front-to-rear bias from 63/37% to 37/63% (1 turn = 1.85% change)
- Incorporates an over-travel limit in case of front or rear brake circuit failure

More information is available here:

http://www.tiltonracing.com/content.php?page=list2&id=300&m=b#

cheapthrillz
09-19-2009, 08:52 AM
I have been following this thread.. and I just came across this so I thought I would put it out there....

http://customworksproducts.com/7243.html

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/dual20master20set20up-1.jpg

Racing Dual Master Cylinder with Balance Bar- a must if not using a booster!

Dual master with balance bar $349 this is for manual brakes only and different size master cylinders can be used to optimize front and rear brake pressures. Balance bar replaces proportioning valve and can infinitly adjust brake bias. This is the only way I could get great performance out of a manual brake system (no power booster) Mounts to stock location and uses stock push rod.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/IMG_0033JPG-1.jpg

This is what my setup will end up looking like (except without all the flash).

The ball bearing kit came in yesterday. So I will install it this week so that I can get cracking on the balance bar bracket. I might get rid of the aluminum frame that Tilton provides and try to make my own, or I will just make a bracket that supports the aluminum frame of the balance bar.

cheapthrillz
09-23-2009, 12:02 PM
Looking for a good deal on a welder to install the bearing kit..... might take a while.

I just get tired of dealing with the guy building the '69 Camaro because he never wants to "just help me out".

parsonsj
09-23-2009, 01:43 PM
JC,

I heartily agree: at the level you're taking this car, you need to be able to weld stuff yourself.

jp

cheapthrillz
09-23-2009, 02:13 PM
JC,

I heartily agree: at the level you're taking this car, you need to be able to weld stuff yourself.

jp

I'm keeping my eye out for a 110V Mig that can weld up to 3/16 or 1/4 plate. I don't want to deal with flux wire so I'll have to get one set up for gas. <140 amp range.

They're just kind of expensive and I don't want to blow my personal budget out of the water (I just got out of college and "Mama don't pay that bill no more"). That and I'm trying my darnedest to save up for the brake kit from Kore3. Hopefully I can find the full gas setup for $500 or so....

Any advice on a welder from a guy who "decided to build a car so he could learn how to weld"? Haha

parsonsj
09-23-2009, 03:31 PM
Well... I'd buy a brand name: Miller, Lincoln, Weldcraft, Hobart. I'd check with local welding stores to see if they have any used equipment. I'd check with Craigslist to see if there is anything local around you.

Good luck!

jp

cheapthrillz
09-23-2009, 05:29 PM
Well... I'd buy a brand name: Miller, Lincoln, Weldcraft, Hobart. I'd check with local welding stores to see if they have any used equipment. I'd check with Craigslist to see if there is anything local around you.

Good luck!

jp

Haha.... Two steps ahead of you. Talked with the local welding supply shop today. They didn't have anything, but he said a week or two and he could find me a good deal on a used Miller/Lincoln/Hobart. And I've emailed two people local about theirs on Craigslist (a lincoln and a hobart). All about the same size and strength.... I might borrow a Flux machine from my granddad just to do this and still keep my eye out for a good mig unit....

cheapthrillz
10-08-2009, 02:11 PM
Found a good deal on a Millermatic 135 on Craigslist. Two mini bottles of gas (one full), two 5 lb spools of .024", helmet, regulator (will probably get a flow meter), gloves, adapter for big spools, and all the books and manuals. All this for the mere price of 500 big ones. The guy posted it yesterday and I called him this morning. He had already had 4 emails and like 15 phonecalls about it. So I called my boss, went to the bank, drove an hour to look at it, paid the man, and brought it home with me.

I have to say that this welder looks like I just bought it brand new from the welding supply store.

Will get crackin on the pedals this weekend!

Damn True
10-08-2009, 02:42 PM
Practice a bit on similar material before you start in on your pedal assembly.

I "knew" how to weld, but a 10-15 year span without a torch in your hand will make you rusty.

cheapthrillz
10-08-2009, 02:58 PM
Practice a bit on similar material before you start in on your pedal assembly.

I "knew" how to weld, but a 10-15 year span without a torch in your hand will make you rusty.

Nothing a grinder can't handle. lol

The first thing I'll be welding on the car will be hidden under the dash, so I'm not too too worried about it. I just have to make sure I clean all of the surfaces really well where I'm welding and it should turn out ok.

I'll be sure to post pictures of how badly it turns out! lol

Damn True
10-08-2009, 03:08 PM
Alright.

Just remember that a weld that "looks good" isn't always a good weld. A brake pedal is a pretty important bit. Make sure your material is surgically clean, your gas shield is adequate and your welds are FULLY penetrated.

cheapthrillz
10-09-2009, 04:39 AM
Alright.

Just remember that a weld that "looks good" isn't always a good weld. A brake pedal is a pretty important bit. Make sure your material is surgically clean, your gas shield is adequate and your welds are FULLY penetrated.

SIR YES SIR!

Want to come and do it for me? I will pay you in brewskies!

cheapthrillz
10-09-2009, 04:52 AM
Wes picked up an auto-darkening helmet and some sheet metal clamps yesterday. Those should make everything go a lot more smoothly.

I didn't feel so well yesterday (Took a benadryl for some poison ivy I got and it knocked me out), but I'm going to do some cleaning on the pedals today and start welding it up!

cheapthrillz
10-09-2009, 09:20 AM
here is the welder I ended up with:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/100_2767-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/100_2768-1.jpg

John Wright
10-09-2009, 09:41 AM
Nice welder and cart....we have a lil Miller 135 in our maintainence department here at work, and it does a good job.

Damn True
10-09-2009, 09:44 AM
Is that the 135 or the 175? I have the latter. I really like it.

John Wright
10-09-2009, 09:45 AM
Is that the 135 or the 175? I have the latter. I really like it.
That welder (pictured above) is the 115v (135), what you have is the 220v (175)

cheapthrillz
10-09-2009, 10:46 AM
That welder (pictured above) is the 115v (135), what you have is the 220v (175)

Yep, 135.... The only 220V I have at the house is the dryer and stove. Both of which are on the other side of the house. So I HAD to get a 115V model....

I'm glad everyone approves!

cheapthrillz
10-13-2009, 05:11 AM
Got the ball bearing kit installed yesterday. Didn't fit quite as well as I'd have hoped, but we got it done. The spacing of the bearing retainers was too much, so we had to shave the spacers down a bit, but all in all it went very smoothly. And the welder works very well too!

Tac weld the washers on the inside and flush up the welds:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/100_2772-1.jpg

Weld bearing retainers onto the pedal support:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/100_2774-1.jpg

Priming the Pedals:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/100_2777-1.jpg

formula
10-13-2009, 09:26 AM
8qfNR-ft7A4

We were both astonished as to how well it actually all went together. First project JC and I have done in a long time that we started and finished on the same day! hahahaha

cheapthrillz
10-13-2009, 10:01 AM
8qfNR-ft7A4

We were both astonished as to how well it actually all went together. First project JC and I have done in a long time that we started and finished on the same day! hahahaha

I hope you're talking about the welds going "no where" and not my project.... or else there will be some ass kicking going on tonight!

cheapthrillz
10-14-2009, 09:35 AM
Painted the pedals! They turned out very nicely thanks to the color choices by Wes... the pedals are actually a little darker than this in person. The flash from the camera makes them look lighter. Both pieces are painted with a textured paint for reduced gloss.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/100_2797-1.jpg

cheapthrillz
10-14-2009, 03:39 PM
Got the pedal assembly back together.... I think it turned out GREAT! What do you guys think?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/100_2807-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/100_2806-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/100_2804-1.jpg

MCMLXIX
10-15-2009, 02:49 AM
They look good! Now just get Clayton Machine to make some nice billet replacements for the OE ones... :)

cheapthrillz
10-15-2009, 03:54 AM
They look good! Now just get Clayton Machine to make some nice billet replacements for the OE ones... :)

No thanks.... $600 Billet pedals are not going to make my car perform better.

cheapthrillz
10-21-2009, 06:08 AM
Hey guys, what should I use to make the support that is going to mount to the firewall and hold the balance bar? Plate steel? Square tubing? There are 4 mounting holes on the top and four on the bottom. What do you guys think?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

parsonsj
10-21-2009, 08:42 AM
JC,

I would make a bracket of 3/16 steel, and tie the bracket into the pedal "crossmember" somehow. That's better than expecting the firewall to resist deflection.

jp

ps. Your bearing mod looks factory. Nicely done.

cheapthrillz
10-21-2009, 10:39 AM
JC,

I would make a bracket of 3/16 steel, and tie the bracket into the pedal "crossmember" somehow. That's better than expecting the firewall to resist deflection.

jp

ps. Your bearing mod looks factory. Nicely done.

Thanks JP! So you don't think through-bolting with the threaded studs from the pedal support would be sufficient? The only way to resist the firewall flex would be to thicken the firewall material. I think the through-bolts would be enough support on both sides of the firewall because the balance bar support will be bolted to the pedal support bracket with the firewall sandwiched in between. Is my logic wrong?

cheapthrillz
10-21-2009, 02:03 PM
JC,

I would make a bracket of 3/16 steel, and tie the bracket into the pedal "crossmember" somehow. That's better than expecting the firewall to resist deflection.

jp

ps. Your bearing mod looks factory. Nicely done.

Sorry for the childish looking drawing, but this is how I will set it up... should there be any problems?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/100_2772_2-1.jpg

parsonsj
10-21-2009, 02:21 PM
So the bracket/balance bar is in the engine compartment?

cheapthrillz
10-21-2009, 02:44 PM
So the bracket/balance bar is in the engine compartment?

That's the plan. Similar to this:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/dual20master20set20up-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/IMG_0033JPG-1.jpg

parsonsj
10-21-2009, 02:47 PM
Ah. OK. In effect, the bracket is bolted to the pedal support beam. I think you're golden.

jp

cheapthrillz
10-21-2009, 02:54 PM
Ah. OK. In effect, the bracket is bolted to the pedal support beam. I think you're golden.

jp

Awesome! So 3/16" plate for the bracket should be sufficient?

parsonsj
10-21-2009, 02:59 PM
Yes. 3/16" should be sufficient, since the bolts are just a couple of inches apart.

jp

cheapthrillz
10-21-2009, 03:02 PM
Time to get to welding then!

cheapthrillz
10-21-2009, 03:10 PM
Oh, and thanks for all of the help so far JP!

cheapthrillz
11-13-2009, 06:43 AM
Apparently building a steel bracket requires all of the tools that I don't have.... so now I'm looking for an air compressor and cutoff wheel to cut the plate steel.... I have a feeling I will end up spending more on tools instead of the car!

And it looks like I will have to mount the aluminum balance bar frame upside down to keep fitment issues down.

41565 chevelle
11-13-2009, 03:50 PM
Thats the beauty of buying the tools...there is a ton of steel out there to cut up and make killer stuff....

Tools are there for the next project!

Rhino
11-13-2009, 10:15 PM
I have a feeling I will end of spending more on tools instead of the car!

Join the club :) It seems like every time I turn around I'm buying new tools.
Fortunately I'll have them around for the next project. The quantity of funds allocated to the car vs tools does seem to be increasing. Hopefully this signifies I'm finally reaching an end to the tool buying!

cheapthrillz
11-20-2009, 06:08 AM
I've got the mock up balance bar bracket started. It shouldn't look too pieced-together when I'm finished, but I will let you guys be the judge of that.... I'm going to work on it some more this afternoon and I will try to snap some shots if I can remember....

cheapthrillz
11-30-2009, 08:00 AM
Another interesting design here:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

http://www.motorsport-tools.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=379_385&products_id=1586

cheapthrillz
11-30-2009, 08:11 AM
I've got the bracket made and I'm just cleaning it up a bit. It turned out to be pretty bulky and pieced-together looking, so I may need to rethink the design and just make my own bracket (similar to a few previous pictures). The bracket I made should be good enough for mock up though, and I should be able to take all of my measurements off of it. I will post pictures this afternoon if I get it finished up and installed. I will still have to wait on the MC's before I can start the new bracket though.


Notes to self:

2 in hole saw + 1/4 in plate steel = god awful runout

4 1/2 in electric grinder with cutting disc cuts 1/4 plate very easily

Buy proper tools for the job

cheapthrillz
11-30-2009, 08:16 AM
If anybody has questions, here is some good tech taken from stoptech dot com....

Brake Proportioning Valves
The True Story of a Misunderstood, Misused and Misnamed Brake System Component

by James Walker, Jr. (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_jameswalker.shtml) of scR motorsports (http://www.teamscr.com/) Elsewhere on this website we have discussed (in painful detail some would add) the importance of front-to-rear bias, or brake balance, and how its optimization can lead to better braking performance. However, one critical factor in establishing bias – the mechanical brake pressure proportioning valve – was left out of the discussion. After all, one can only take so much of this brake bias talk in one sitting.
That said, we are back to share the intricacies of just how brake pressure is distributed to the front and rear of the vehicle. More importantly, we hope that you take away the understanding that replacing, modifying, or just plain fiddling with your proportioning valve can do more harm than good. While it is not quite black magic, there are plenty of opportunities to throw the system into disarray without even knowing it.
Consequently, we offer this quick look into these devices and their mechanical siblings. A small amount of knowledge can yield surprising benefits, not the least of which is avoiding nasty surprises.
Rear Brake Pressure Control

In general, there are three ways to deal with rear brake pressure: leave it alone, make it proportional to the front brake pressure, or control it in a way that combines these two strategies.
Strategy 1: Leave it Alone

If no device were used to modify the rear brake pressure, then as shown in Figure A, the front brake pressure and rear brake pressure would always be equal. Naturally, this is the easiest way to deal with the issue, but in order to prevent rear bias under all conditions, the rear brake itself would need to be absolutely tiny.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
As you can imagine, this is not a realistic solution and is not found in the real world.
Strategy 2: True Proportioning

True proportioning, as shown in Figure B, would result in rear brake pressures being linearly proportional to front brake pressures under all conditions. Ironic as it may seem, “proportioning valves” do not provide this kind of control, as they are not the purely proportional devices their name would imply.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
This type of pressure regulation is certainly possible to achieve, but it typically requires tandem master cylinders and an adjustable reaction linkage, the same setup found on nearly every purpose-built racing car today.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
On vehicles so equipped, the proportioning ratio is achieved through a combination of master cylinder piston diameter selection and the adjustment of a mechanical reaction linkage that connects the two master cylinders. Also known as a bias bar, the linkage geometry determines the front-to-rear force distribution coming from the brake pedal assembly. The significant benefit to this set-up is that a bias bar can be designed in such a way that the driver can adjust the front-to-rear proportioning ratio while at speed.
In the example shown below, an adjustment of the bias bar of 0.010 inches results in an increase in front master input cylinder force from 125lb to 133lb. At the same time, the rear master cylinder input force drops from 125lb to 117lb.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Real-time driver control over bias makes adjustments for changing track conditions or fuel load practically effortless. The complexity of this design makes it highly impractical for street use, but on track it simply can not be beat for ease of adjustment.
Combining Strategies – The Misnamed Proportioning Valve

Conventional proportioning valves should really be referred to as “braking force regulators” or “brake pressure regulating valves.” While their name might imply true proportional control, in reality they provide a combination of the control found in Figures A and B.
Up to certain pressures, these valves allow equal pressure to both the front and rear brakes (à la Figure A). However, once a preset pressure point is reached (600 psi in the example), the rear brake pressure continues to build, but at a slower rate (or slope) than the front brake pressure. Figure C displays this for us quite clearly.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Looking at the diagrams, one can see that it is possible to design both a Type B system and a Type C system that ultimately give the same brake balance at the point of maximum deceleration. (Note that Figures B and C both generate 950 psi of rear brake-line pressure when the front brake-line pressure is at 2000 psi.)
However, one can also see that Type C systems—those that use proportioning valves—can bring us closer to optimum balance at lower deceleration levels. This benefit is relatively meaningless in a racing application, as the vehicle is always operating at maximum decelerations, but it is of great advantage on the street.
In so many words, the proportioning valve allows us to drive around town under optimized brake-balance conditions (good for front brake-pad life) but also keeps everything in check when we need maximum braking (good for stability).
Due to their compact size and relatively low cost, these devices can be found on nearly every vehicle which requires rear brake pressure reduction to achieve optimum brake bias. Typical passenger cars and production-based race cars fall neatly into this category.
Height-Sensing Proportioning Valves

Some vehicle’s proportioning valves go one step farther, as the kneepoint on the graph can vary with the amount of weight on the rear axle. Effectively, as the rear axle weight increases, a linkage between the axle and the body is compressed. This linkage acts on a cam inside the proportioning valve which increases the preload on the proportioning valve spring. The end result is that more rear braking (bias) is allowed as weight is added to the rear axle, helping to take advantage of the increased traction now available at the rear tires. Figure D illustrates this relationship quite clearly.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
So, Can One Adjust The Proportioning Valve?
Believe it or not, in nearly all cases the OEM valves are well matched to the original brake system and should not be tampered with, as there are no parts inside that are able to be modified by ambitious owners. Unfortunately, some are externally adjustable, so the temptation to tinker is right there in front of us!
One point to ponder is that because they are a mechanical device, proportioning valves must be designed as a best compromise for use under all conditions. High speed, low speed, fully loaded, and empty vehicle scenarios must all be evaluated and figured into the proportioning valve design.
Of course if you have modified your vehicle in a way that impacts front-to-rear bias you might be standing out in left field! As a refresher from our bias article, we will bring forward again the lists of modifications which can influence front-to-rear bias.
Factors that will increase front bias

Increased front rotor diameter
Increased front brake pad coefficient of friction
Increased front caliper piston diameter(s)
Decreased rear rotor diameter
Decreased rear brake pad coefficient of friction
Decreased rear caliper piston diameter(s)
Lower center of gravity (i.e. lowered vehicle)
More weight on rear axle (i.e. loaded)
Less weight on front axle
Less sticky tires (lower deceleration limit)

Factors that will increase rear bias

Increased rear rotor diameter
Increased rear brake pad coefficient of friction
Increased rear caliper piston diameter(s)
Decreased front rotor diameter
Decreased front brake pad coefficient of friction
Decreased front caliper piston diameter(s)
Higher center of gravity (i.e. raised vehicle)
Less weight on rear axle (i.e. unloaded)
More weight on front axle
More sticky tires (higher deceleration limit)

Proportioning Modifications

We could start this section by clearly stating that you should not modify your proportioning valve. But, what fun would that be? In all seriousness, making changes to the proportioning valve to effect brake bias should be left to those with the proper tools and measurement devices, but if you have tweaked your vehicle beyond recognition, this may be your only solution to restore a sense of proper bias to your braking system.
We’ll start here with three of the most basic rules regarding proportioning valve installation and selection.
1. If you have the deeply-rooted need to install your own adjustable proportioning valve, be advised that they should NEVER be installed if the factory unit is still in place. Proportioning valves in series with one another can do nasty, unpredictable things!
2. If you have the deeply-rooted need to install your own adjustable proportioning valve, be advised that they should NEVER be installed in-line to the front brakes. The effect would be to make your vehicle rear-biased before you could say “terminal oversteer.” Front brake line pressure should always be left alone – only the rear pressures should be considered for proportioning.
3. In all cases, the basic brake system balance needs to be close to optimized to start with. This is the only way that a proportioning valve can be effectively utilized. You should never assume that simply adding a proportioning valve will address all rear-bias conditions, as even the best proportioning valves must be well-matched to the target vehicle.
Proportioning Valve Selection


Selecting the correct adjustable proportioning valve for your vehicle entails not only selecting the proper point at which slope limiting begins (the kneepoint), but also selecting the proper rate at which rear brake line pressure builds after that point (the slope). Nearly every adjustable proportioning valve on the market today has an adjustable knee point (the point at which the rear brake line pressure begins to be controlled), but a fixed slope (the rate at which it builds beyond the knee point). While one parameter is adjustable, both are critical to system performance. Note that in Figure E the two curves have the same knee point, but the slopes vary greatly.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
So how does one select the right kneepoint and slope? Without the test and measurement resources of a major automotive manufacturer, it’s next to impossible to say. Of course, you could trial-and-error your way into a solution that you believe to be appropriate, but without testing under all conditions of loading, speed, and road conditions there might be one operating condition just waiting to bite you.
In short, if you find yourself thinking, “I wonder how I would pick the right proportioning valve for my car?” you probably shouldn’t be changing it yourself.
Electronic Proportioning: No Tampering Allowed

As a small sidebar to the mechanical proportioning valve discussed here, there is a movement afoot to replace the proportioning valve function with the hardware performing the ABS function. While this is not yet the norm, most high-end performance cars already have this feature as standard equipment and one can predict with reasonable certainty that the trend will continue.
Based on information gathered from the four ABS wheel speed sensors, the Dynamic Rear Proportioning (DRP) or Electronic Brake force Distribution (EBD) algorithms calculate the front-to-rear slip ratio of the four tires. Then, given preset thresholds and parameters, the ABS hardware can intervene and modify the brake pressure going to the rear wheels automatically.
Because DRP and EBD are based on actual wheel slip and not on brake line pressure, this type of rear proportioning is more flexible and adaptable to modifications one might make to their vehicle. It is also less expensive, as the OEM can now remove the mechanical proportioning valve from the vehicle and replace its function with other hardware already on board.
Naturally, the OEM does not want owners fiddling with their front-to-rear proportioning, and as a result there is no way for the enthusiast to reprogram DRP or EBD to suit their desires. Of course, if the vehicle’s original front-to-rear bias is in tact in the first place, there is no need to reprogram anyway.
Plan Wisely

In summary, there is more to the proportioning valve than meets the eye. You should make every attempt to carefully plan and select your brake modifications so that you are able to retain and reap the benefits of the stock proportioning valve. In other words, pay attention to (and don’t stray too far from) the factory bias in the first place and you will be ahead of the game.
If for other reasons you are forced to scrap the stock unit and replace it with an aftermarket unit, be advised that selection and adjustment are not for the uninitiated. While there is more than one way to achieve optimum balance at the point of maximum deceleration, without the right amount of know-how you might be making compromises under partial braking conditions that were not present with the factory hardware.
Again, remember that simply adding or replacing a proportioning valve may not be enough to remedy basket-case bias scenarios. Proper planning and up-front design should ensure that the base vehicle bias is appropriate from the start, enabling the proportioning valve to be used properly as a fine-tuning device.

69stang
11-30-2009, 08:32 AM
Notes to self:

2 in hole saw + 1/4 in plate steel = god awful runout

4 1/2 in electric grinder with cutting disc cuts 1/4 plate very easily

Buy proper tools for the job

I know what you mean on the hole saw. Was trying to cut a 1.25" hole in 2" square tube recently.

I think I'll be making a bracket like the one you posted. Was looking at that last night.

cheapthrillz
11-30-2009, 08:40 AM
I know what you mean on the hole saw. Was trying to cut a 1.25" hole in 2" square tube recently.

I think I'll be making a bracket like the one you posted. Was looking at that last night.

I will post pics of mine tonight... I think it looks like ass. But yea, I think you're right. Making your own bracket is probably the way to go. Mine looks bulky because I made a bracket to support a bracket that supports the masters (if you can wrap your head around that lol).

killer67
01-27-2010, 01:01 AM
Clayton MachineWorks airframe pedals are nice but expensive

cheapthrillz
01-27-2010, 03:50 PM
Clayton MachineWorks airframe pedals are nice but expensive

If you can prove to me that the performance value per dollar for these pedals is greater than 1:1, I will gladly buy them..... I thought I already spoke on this topic?

Did you even read through this thread or just look at the thread title and have a word vomit?

MCMLXIX
02-10-2010, 03:50 AM
Did you ever get the chance to take pics of the bracket you built? Did you mount it in the car yet?

cheapthrillz
02-10-2010, 05:44 AM
Did you ever get the chance to take pics of the bracket you built? Did you mount it in the car yet?

No, I haven't done either yet. I'm working intently on getting my brakes straightened out. I'm having to turn down the axles, have hub centric rings made, etc.....

I am kind of embarassed to post pictures of it.... It wasn't my best fab work (because I haven't done that much) and it looks like crap... lol

But just for you, I WILL take pictures of it when I get off work today.

I am going to end up building another bracket and just using the balance bar and swing arm off of the Tilton piece. I think it will turn out better if I do it that way.... hopefully.

Aleast with the bracket I have now, I can get it mounted and figure out all of my dimensions.

formula
02-10-2010, 08:22 AM
It does NOT look like crap. It's just a very, very, very function-over-form design. :1st:

Not for the bling-and-billet crowd!

Damn True
02-10-2010, 08:32 AM
Good thread guys. Keep up the tech.

cheapthrillz
02-10-2010, 06:19 PM
Please don't laugh......

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/100_3348-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/100_3349-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/100_3350-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/100_3351-1.jpg

Damn True
02-10-2010, 06:25 PM
Well that weld is a bit under-penetrated but otherwise I don't see anything that doesn't look pretty darn good.

cheapthrillz
02-10-2010, 06:50 PM
Well that weld is a bit under-penetrated but otherwise I don't see anything that doesn't look pretty darn good.

Tack weld.... lol

I got mad when my small tacks broke while I was drilling...

MCMLXIX
02-10-2010, 10:23 PM
I wouldn't laugh - I cant even weld so you're a few steps ahead of me...

Does the bottom plate attach to the balance assembly? If not I think it may be dead weight.

If you want additional support. I was looking at the pics in the endine bay. I think I see two bolts located on the firewall under the master cylinder. You coul use those to triangulate the fixture and support it....

I made a quick MS paint drawing... its a side view and uses the plate you have that attatches to the firewall. The side plates are wider where it attatches to the firewall for more weld area. The other gray line is a flat bar that would replace the L pieces you have now. The hole is to access the balance bar adjustment. The green line can be the extra support bars that goes to a mounting point below, near the steering column. You could also make the lines more angular and the hole a triangle if you think it would looke better. It would probably fit the lines of the car better....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/bracketsideview-1.jpg

MCMLXIX
02-10-2010, 10:24 PM
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/bracketsideview2-1.jpg

cheapthrillz
02-11-2010, 05:57 AM
I wouldn't laugh - I cant even weld so you're a few steps ahead of me...

Does the bottom plate attach to the balance assembly? If not I think it may be dead weight.

If you want additional support. I was looking at the pics in the endine bay. I think I see two bolts located on the firewall under the master cylinder. You coul use those to triangulate the fixture and support it....

I made a quick MS paint drawing... its a side view and uses the plate you have that attatches to the firewall. The side plates are wider where it attatches to the firewall for more weld area. The other gray line is a flat bar that would replace the L pieces you have now. The hole is to access the balance bar adjustment. The green line can be the extra support bars that goes to a mounting point below, near the steering column. You could also make the lines more angular and the hole a triangle if you think it would looke better. It would probably fit the lines of the car better....



Yes, the bottom plate has 4 small bolts that run through my bracket into the tilton bracket. I did that to resist the rotational force that is created from the pivot on the balance bar. As it sits, there are four 5/16 bolts in the angle steel (2 per side) and four 1/4 bolts in the bottom plate.

The main reason I built it like this was for the adjustability. It is more of just a mock up/jig because I can slide the Tilton assembly toward or away from the firewall.

I think what I will do is just get my pedals remounted and buy the two MC's that I think I need and just see how it all actuates. Then try to build a rigid, final bracket.

I don't think that the strap going down to the firewall is necessary. All of the weight of the bracket is supported by the 4 posts coming from the pedal assembly through the firewall.

Payton King
02-11-2010, 06:40 AM
sizing on my masters one more time. Once you figure out what size you need drop me a pm. I have every size master that tilton makes that I have bought getting my brakes dialed in. I am now going for a 7/10 front, 3/4 rear. If that works for me, which I think it will, i will have 5/8,7/8 and a 1 inch that have a few miles on them.

What brakes calipers will you be running on your car? What pads? Pedal ratio? I may be able to help you get close on the sizing.

cheapthrillz
02-11-2010, 02:14 PM
sizing on my masters one more time. Once you figure out what size you need drop me a pm. I have every size master that tilton makes that I have bought getting my brakes dialed in. I am now going for a 7/10 front, 3/4 rear. If that works for me, which I think it will, i will have 5/8,7/8 and a 1 inch that have a few miles on them.

What brakes calipers will you be running on your car? What pads? Pedal ratio? I may be able to help you get close on the sizing.

Awesome Payton! I will definitely keep you in mind. I am still trying to figure out my MC selection (and I thought that the balance bar was complicated....lol). It sucks not knowing the current weight of the vehicle and it is hard to calculate while in the air with no wheels or tires on it....

The brakes are C6 Z51's from Kore3:

Fronts - 340mm DBA 4000 slotted, Aluminum hubs, C6 PBR twin 45mm piston calipers

Rears - 330mm DBA 4000 slotted, C6 PBR singe 40mm piston calipers

I have also decided that I WILL be running an adjustable prop valve during street use that can be "turned off" for future racing events.

I'm not sure on the pads.... whatever was in the bargain bin at Tobin's place :) lol

Payton King
02-12-2010, 05:43 AM
and balance bar there is no need to the prop valve. You will size the master to your application and use the balance bar to fine tune.

The brakes that you are using have the same piston area as the 6 piston wilwoods I am running on the front and the 4 pistons on the rear.

Depending on the weight of your vehicle and your pedal ratio we are going to be pretty close to the same. I am going to guess that your car is going to be at least 3500 lbs so i would shoot for a pedal ratio of 6.5 to 7.5 :1. I would run as aggressive a pad as you can stand and not tear up your rotors. Hawk HP+ is suppose to be a good pad and not too expensive. I spoke to Tobin the other day and he turned me on to Carbotech. Come to find out they are located about 15 minutes from my house. I am trying there A6x pad. It is an autocross pad with great cold bite, which will be good for cold stops on the street. Suppose to be easy on the rotors but dusty and possibly noisy. Should have them on in a week or so and I will let you know what I think.

I am changing my front master to 7/10 and keeping the 3/4 on the rear. I will take pressure readings for you as well.

cheapthrillz
02-12-2010, 07:31 AM
and balance bar there is no need to the prop valve. You will size the master to your application and use the balance bar to fine tune.

The brakes that you are using have the same piston area as the 6 piston wilwoods I am running on the front and the 4 pistons on the rear.

Depending on the weight of your vehicle and your pedal ratio we are going to be pretty close to the same. I am going to guess that your car is going to be at least 3500 lbs so i would shoot for a pedal ratio of 6.5 to 7.5 :1. I would run as aggressive a pad as you can stand and not tear up your rotors. Hawk HP+ is suppose to be a good pad and not too expensive. I spoke to Tobin the other day and he turned me on to Carbotech. Come to find out they are located about 15 minutes from my house. I am trying there A6x pad. It is an autocross pad with great cold bite, which will be good for cold stops on the street. Suppose to be easy on the rotors but dusty and possibly noisy. Should have them on in a week or so and I will let you know what I think.

I am changing my front master to 7/10 and keeping the 3/4 on the rear. I will take pressure readings for you as well.

Tobin and I have talked EXTENSIVELY about the use of a balance bar on the street. We have come to the conclusion that a proportioning valve in the rear system is a good idea for street use. It creates that knee point in your pressure/pressure curve that "factory" automobiles have. It keeps your from under-utilizing your rear brakes when braking less than maximum deceleration. So from that, you have less effort input by the front brakes to stop the car, pad life increases, and overall braking performance at lower deceleration rates increases (brake balance). When you set up your balance bar, you do it to give you the correct braking balance for MAXIMUM deceleration. Make sense? I have a hard time understanding all of this too.....

I think I posted my pedal ratio in this thread somewhere and IIRC it was something like 6.4:1 in the stock location. I do have a little room to increase that if necessary also and maybe get it closer to 7:1. Right now, if I had to guess, I would say the car is around 3800-4000 lbs. I do plan on putting her on a diet, but not immediately.

The WidowMaker
02-12-2010, 08:28 PM
tobin and i had the same discussion about using a proportioning valve with my c6z brakes and balance bar setup, but it went way over my head. i even tried pulling up articles online, but got nowhere.

cheapthrillz
02-12-2010, 08:34 PM
tobin and i had the same discussion about using a proportioning valve with my c6z brakes and balance bar setup, but it went way over my head. i even tried pulling up articles online, but got nowhere.

What did you end up doing?

The WidowMaker
02-13-2010, 08:07 PM
nothing yet. i have the pedals and masters installed, but im still months away from the plumbing. i figure i still have time to decide, and guys like you to do my testing.

cheapthrillz
02-14-2010, 09:26 AM
nothing yet. i have the pedals and masters installed, but im still months away from the plumbing. i figure i still have time to decide, and guys like you to do my testing.

Haha....understandable!

If you look back at my post where I quoted all of the stoptech info, it pretty much shows exactly what I am talking about.

Brad_bb
02-15-2010, 10:05 PM
If you haven't ruled out stock pedals, there is an upgrade you can do to the stock ones while restoring them. There is a bearing kit available for the clutch pedal shaft to get rid of the stock die cast zinc bushings with plastic inserts and replace them with smooth ball bearings. Smoother pedal that can handle a stiffer clutch. The kit is available from mustangsteve.com Check out his tech article on it. I just got a kit to put on my GTO. Just have to make sure the pedal shaft is long enough. I think a lot of the 60's pedal assemblies had the same dimensions of shaft dia and width. I put a kit on a 65 Comet awhile back.

cheapthrillz
02-16-2010, 05:33 AM
If you haven't ruled out stock pedals, there is an upgrade you can do to the stock ones while restoring them. There is a bearing kit available for the clutch pedal shaft to get rid of the stock die cast zinc bushings with plastic inserts and replace them with smooth ball bearings. Smoother pedal that can handle a stiffer clutch. The kit is available from mustangsteve.com Check out his tech article on it. I just got a kit to put on my GTO. Just have to make sure the pedal shaft is long enough. I think a lot of the 60's pedal assemblies had the same dimensions of shaft dia and width. I put a kit on a 65 Comet awhile back.

If you read through this thread, you will see where this is exactly what I did...... It turned out well, but I haven't used it yet to see how well it actually works.

Brad_bb
02-16-2010, 05:33 PM
Doh! I only read the first page and didn't see the multiple pages. At least you guys do know about the bearing kit.

cheapthrillz
02-17-2010, 05:51 AM
Doh! I only read the first page and didn't see the multiple pages. At least you guys do know about the bearing kit.

The guys over at FordMuscle told me about it, so I contacted Steve and he assured me that it would work..... I hope it funtions properly. Should be better than it was!

Bjkadron
04-14-2010, 04:54 PM
Now that you have everything figured out let me throw my $0.02 in here. Another benefit to a prop valve over a balance bar is that you can adjust the F/R prop. on the fly. Which can be usefull figuring out exactly what you like and can be adjusted to suit changing track conditions. Just another thought for all those out there reading this. Btw... What is your friction surface on the pedals? bedliner or something? you might have already said but I didn't see it.

cheapthrillz
04-14-2010, 05:27 PM
Now that you have everything figured out let me throw my $0.02 in here. Another benefit to a prop valve over a balance bar is that you can adjust the F/R prop. on the fly. Which can be usefull figuring out exactly what you like and can be adjusted to suit changing track conditions. Just another thought for all those out there reading this. Btw... What is your friction surface on the pedals? bedliner or something? you might have already said but I didn't see it.

Are you talking about running a prop valve instead of a balance bar, or in conjunction with?

The pedal "pad" is actually grip tape. We will see how long it lasts. Shouldn't have to worry about my foot slipping off though!

Bjkadron
04-15-2010, 09:16 AM
Are you talking about running a prop valve instead of a balance bar, or in conjunction with?

The pedal "pad" is actually grip tape. We will see how long it lasts. Shouldn't have to worry about my foot slipping off though!

I was refering to just a prop valve. But I suppose it would work either way although you wouldn't have as much control over the turn in on braking as you would without the balance bar. I've been flopping back and fourth with what I want to do with mine but I'm actually leaning towards just the prop valve due to the "on the fly" adjustment and the better braking at less then full force.

Nice trick on the grip tape that stuff is usually pretty tough... Let us know how it works out.

cheapthrillz
04-15-2010, 09:49 AM
I was refering to just a prop valve. But I suppose it would work either way although you wouldn't have as much control over the turn in on braking as you would without the balance bar. I've been flopping back and fourth with what I want to do with mine but I'm actually leaning towards just the prop valve due to the "on the fly" adjustment and the better braking at less then full force.

Nice trick on the grip tape that stuff is usually pretty tough... Let us know how it works out.

The Front to rear bias can also be changed on the fly with the Tilton setup.

I can't see a single reason to run a balance bar on the street, but since my car will see track time eventually, I decided to get one because it is the best system for racing.

I am getting a prop valve strictly for use on the street so that my rear pads last longer.

Bjkadron
04-15-2010, 11:17 AM
The Front to rear bias can also be changed on the fly with the Tilton setup.

I can't see a single reason to run a balance bar on the street, but since my car will see track time eventually, I decided to get one because it is the best system for racing.

I am getting a prop valve strictly for use on the street so that my rear pads last longer.

I looked through the thread and I thought you were mounting it in the engine compartment? Were you saying that YOUR setup was adjustable or that it could be? I'm slightly confused. even so I can't see reaching to the floor or under the dash to adjust it while driving. Maybe I'm missing something?

Thanks

cheapthrillz
04-15-2010, 11:34 AM
I looked through the thread and I thought you were mounting it in the engine compartment? Were you saying that YOUR setup was adjustable or that it could be? I'm slightly confused. even so I can't see reaching to the floor or under the dash to adjust it while driving. Maybe I'm missing something?

Thanks

Tilton sells a remote mount adjuster that can be mounted right beside the prop valve adjuster in the interior in an easily accessible location.

My system is no where near completed, nor the car ready for any type of track event. I'm just planning as of now, while trying to get the car back on the road.

Bjkadron
04-15-2010, 11:37 AM
Oh thats cool! I hadn't thought about something like that! I think you just helped me decide!

cheapthrillz
04-15-2010, 11:40 AM
Oh thats cool! I hadn't thought about something like that! I think you just helped me decide!

Awesome! Check out Tilton's website to get the part number. I think that Summit Racing sells it also. I'm not sure how long the cable is, but it should be long enough to put the control in a cofortable and accessable spot.

I am going this route with both the prop valve and balance bar control in the future, but not as of now.....

MCMLXIX
04-16-2010, 01:33 AM
I have a wilwood pedal set for my Chevelle and was thinking about this - mounting it at the center console...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/04/wil3404990-1.jpg

Wilwood Disc Brakes 340-4990 - Wilwood Remote Mount Brake Bias Adjusters

Adjust front-to-rear brake bias while racing.

Wilwood's remote mount balance bar cable adjusters are used with dual master cylinder/single brake pedal assemblies to adjust the front-to-rear brake bias during the race--without leaving the seat! They feature a bright blue knob for adjustment, and a modifiable 5 ft. cable and housing for easy installation into tight areas. They include two labels for bias identification and fit all balance bars with 3/8 in. x 24 threads...
.
.
.

cheapthrillz
04-16-2010, 05:15 AM
^^^^^^ That would probably work too.

Here is the one from Tilton:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/04/til72408_w-1.jpg

Can be found here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TIL-72-408/

69stang
04-16-2010, 08:07 AM
CNC has one also.
http://www.cncbrakes.com/images/830.jpg

Cheap,
Finished my pedals & bearing conversion of my bracket a couple of weeks ago.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

cheapthrillz
04-16-2010, 09:31 AM
CNC has one also.
http://www.cncbrakes.com/images/830.jpg

Cheap,
Finished my pedals & bearing conversion of my bracket a couple of weeks ago.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Awesome! Looks like it turned out well! What are you using for pedal pads? Also, is that a grease fitting that I see at the pivot on the brake pedal? If so, did you not get a sealed bearing?

69stang
04-16-2010, 02:46 PM
What are you using for pedal pads?

I don't know yet, may make something up.



Also, is that a grease fitting that I see at the pivot on the brake pedal?


Yes. The bearings are the sealed ones from mustangsteve. The brake pedal still rides on plastic bushings on the clutch pedal shaft so I fit it with a grease fitting to keep them well lubed.

cheapthrillz
04-16-2010, 04:01 PM
Ok cool.... That's probably not a bad idea for anybody else looking through this.

One thing that I think JP mentioned, our pedals will probably never see as much use as they have already seen in their lives.....

RS_Customs
05-02-2010, 04:51 PM
I have a wilwood pedal set for my Chevelle and was thinking about this - mounting it at the center console...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/04/wil3404990-1.jpg

Wilwood Disc Brakes 340-4990 - Wilwood Remote Mount Brake Bias Adjusters

Adjust front-to-rear brake bias while racing.

Wilwood's remote mount balance bar cable adjusters are used with dual master cylinder/single brake pedal assemblies to adjust the front-to-rear brake bias during the race--without leaving the seat! They feature a bright blue knob for adjustment, and a modifiable 5 ft. cable and housing for easy installation into tight areas. They include two labels for bias identification and fit all balance bars with 3/8 in. x 24 threads...
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I've seen lot of race cars use these in conjunction with the triple mast setup for on the fly adjustability. The key is getting the right bore size and tuning with the balance bar then use the prop to make small adjustments per track. This one is in a c5 ls7 car that was at the mitty.

Robert
(sorry for the large picture, it won't let me resize in the window for some reason)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/IMG_0804-1.jpg

cheapthrillz
05-04-2010, 05:16 AM
I've seen lot of race cars use these in conjunction with the triple mast setup for on the fly adjustability. The key is getting the right bore size and tuning with the balance bar then use the prop to make small adjustments per track. This one is in a c5 ls7 car that was at the mitty.

Robert
(sorry for the large picture, it won't let me resize in the window for some reason)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/IMG_0804-1.jpg

Damn Robert, I should have paid more attention to this kind of stuff while I was there! I didn't even think about looking at it..... I was too busy rolling my tongue back into my mouth every two or three seconds.... haha

PS. Was this the black C5 that was running in the same class as the C6R?