Lower ball Joint, 1st Gen f-body

[a67]

Need some new lower ball joints for the '67 Firebird. After a bunch of searches I just don't know which way to turn.

The car is modified for better handling, g_mod, Bilsteins, 550# springs, bearing style A-arm pivots, and so on. Stock GM disc brake spindles w/D52 calipers and 11" discs.

One question is, does anyone know what is the OD of the Howe ball joint is where they fit into the A-Arm? With an arm that has seen some use will these unit fit tightly?

The more basic question is: For a stock length replacement lower ball joint, what would you use?

I've also been considering Moog K5103 joints (stock replacement), but have been reading that they may not be what they used to be. And seeing some pictures of them they appear to be identical to the TRW joints that I just removed.

The TRW joints are basically junk. The ones in this car and another 1st gen didn't last 5,000 miles. One started banging such that it was hanging up then releasing.

Disassembly shows spalling of the casing where the pivot rides. The pivot itself is manufactured very rough. And it doesn't rotate on the ball portion (which really isn't a ball). The stud rotates within the ball.

The set I put in the 3rd gen were also terrible. Good for about 10K miles and always sloppy.

With pictures of the Moog parts looking the same as the TRW part, I'm wondering if the current Moog joints are now the old TRW joints. My understanding is that they are now one and the same company. (Moog purchased TRW?).

I did run into some posts about NAPA suspension parts. Allegedly they are good parts. Any one using NAPA brand ball joints, good, bad, same as others?

Thanks for any input.

Bob.

[BMR Tech]

You are right that TRW and Moog are now one-in-the same. Its kind of funny, this happened back in the late 80's but it is just now becoming common knowledge. Both companies were once considered top-of-the line brands but with market competition it seems they have sacrificed quality for sake of price. What we found to be the main problem is inconsistency. They tend to source the joints from multiple manufacturers and sometimes they are high quality, most times so-so, and sometimes junk. We would order 100 ball joints at a time and they would come in 3-4 different boxes, have 2-3 different plating colors (black, silver, gold) and the stampings wouldn't match from joint to joint. We had to pair joints up whenever we assembled our A-arms back then.

About 7 years ago we began working with an OE manufacturer on a shared project and worked out an arrangement with them to be our ball joint supplier. These are what we use in every pair of A-arms sold since 2002. They are superior to what most parts houses are selling and are designed to be 100,000 mile joints (in fact they have to be to meet OE specifications). The image shown below are the joints for your application. You can see that the upper joint is a forged design with an attached silicone boot. Most joints are stamped halves spot welded together and have a bolt-on boot. The lowers are serrated at the press-portion and have a bonded boot. Both are greasable. The prices are $25.95 each for the uppers and $27.95 each for the lowers.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[LS1NOVA]

Wow great prices and info!

[John Wright]

Talk with Marcus about the Howe joints, I think you'll appreciate his knowledge on the subject. But be advised that these joints do cost a bit more, but are completely rebuildable. The Howe's, if I'm not mistaken, pivot a touch further than the factory joints do and in some cases a taller joint can help geometry so that the joint doesn't need to articulate so far.

Maybe take the spring out (put it all back together)and work the front suspention through it's range of motion and see what's going on.

[Marcus SC&C]

The Howe LBJ housings are exactly OE dia. They will fit factory arms just as well as new factory ball joints do. Install them in an arm thats hole is stretched out of spec and they may be a bit loose. Since factory arms failures almost always occur at the ball joint hole it may be a good time to consider replacing the arms. If you still want to use them you can simply tack weld the ball joint housings into the arms. Most sanctioning bodys who allow the use of pressed in ball joints have required this for years. If you`d rather use an oversized "fix" balljoint, as most on the market these days are then I suggest you check out the NAPA Premium line. They`ve become the go to factory type chassis parts in our shop. Mark SC&C

[a67]

Thank you for the input. I do need to do something to get my '67 back on the tarmac. But at the same time want to make the right decision.

Can anyone post the OD of an OEM 1st gen f-body ball joint?

I really need this dimension to decide upon the path to take.

Bob.

[a67]

OK, purchased and installed some NAPA Premium Line lower ball joints. Waiting for the paint to dry before final assembly and alignment.

The OD of the press fit area is 2.012"

The TRW's that came out are about a thou smaller (2.011").

The arms are at 2.008". So the 4-thou press is just right. The press was tight, but not overly.

Note that I've measured Moog "problem solver" joints at 80-thou over stock. This is for a 3rd gen f-body. Not sure what I was supposed to use to install those. For obvious reason they were returned.

There are some major differences in these NAPA joints over the TRW's. The outer casing is fully machined and heat treated in the ball area. The gusher bearing is machined. Unlike the TRW's with the stamped sheet metal bearing.

They both use a powered metal 'ball' on stud design. Not real keen on that. But we'll see how they hold up. The ball on the TRW's showed very little if any wear. So that part must be tough.

Have pictures of both joints if any one is interested. Just post the "this thread is worthless without pictures" dude and I'll post up the pic's.

I disassembled one of the TRW joints, even shows the galling of the inside of the casing. The excess wear on the gusher bearing, and the rubber grommet for tensioning is also shown.

Bob

[JRouche]

They both use a powered metal 'ball' on stud design. Not real keen on that.

Have pictures of both joints if any one is interested. Just post the "this thread is worthless without pictures" dude and I'll post up the pic's.

I got some Moog BJs with my SPC arms. They look pretty nice. I should have took some pics before installing them in the arms. But they had a decent heat treat area, from the top of the lip down to about mid way of the body.

Ok, I know nuthing about BJs. So, my ball looks like a grey cast type metal. Powdered metal you were talking about??

The body looks machined. They are screw in. And them threads. Never encountered thread like those before. Like they were cut with a form tool, smooth valleys, rounded really. But they screwed right in no prob. Got a lil tighter at the last 1/4% of the threads.

Oh, um. :postpics:

Yup!!! I wanna see. Please. Thanks. JR

So I snapped some pics of the moog joints. They looked much nicer out of the control arm. The machined body and all. How in the heck do they make these things. Do they load the ball in from the back? Oh, and see in my pic the heat affected zone on the pin. Sup with that? Are they supposed to be heat treated like that? If its cintered metal you dont heat treat that stuff do you? Or do you? Anyway, some pics of a moog joint in an SPC arm.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/1-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/2-1.jpg

[a67]

The first picture is the NAPA ball joint. The heat treated areas are obvious, and are the areas where the pivot rides. Decent machining all around.

The second picture is the bottom of the NAPA joint. Note the center stub where the grease fitting mounts. That is part of the gusher bearing.

The bottom of the stud rides on this. It is machined and most likely also hardened. Although I'm not cutting the joint open to find out :)

The NAPA ball joints are the ones I just installed.

The picture of the parts that go into a ball joint. This is the TRW joint that was banging and worn (lots of play). Everything loads into the bottom of the joint. Then roll crimped. I cut the crimp off to open it up.

The pivot drops over the stud and goes into the shell. Then the gusher (lower left), the rubber grommet, then the bottom plate. The parts are shown upright.

Next picture showing the parts loaded in order. Just drop the shell over the top and crimp the bottom to retain.

Close up of the very worn gusher bearing, grommet and bottom plate.

The last picture is looking up into the shell. This is the area where the pivot rides. Note the galling. This isn't the only area that is galled. Recall that these ball joints have less then 5K miles on them. Street use with some spirited driving. :machine:

Bob

[JRouche]

Outstanding Bob. I have a better understanding on how the ball joints work now. Great pic too!! Thanks... JR

[David Pozzi]

I think AFCO has a new line of ball joints.

[a67]

JR, your welcome. The insides were different then what I expected. So same as you it was educational.

Dave, if you go to Jegs and drop K5103 in the search box the AFCO low friction joint along with a QA1 joint will also be shown. Although the QA1 states that it is not for street use.

Although I'm not sure if the AFCO low friction joint is new or not.

Bob

[MonzaRacer]

The Low friction design was dropped several years ago as they didnt hold up in street use because of low friction use, and never held good alignment.
Moogs ball jointsts are hard to find as they ship to so many different companies with different price lines now. True Moog joints only come to certain dealers from my experience, just cause its moog box dont mean it top of the line,,,kind of like Carquest electrical parts,,,,7 or 8 different lines and store chooses how much mark up they want to make to stay in catalog price.
Napa premium frontend parts are DANA part craft and NAPA United line brakes have never failed to perform for me in the last 20+ years of turning wrenches and racing and building cars. Some things Ill go cheap on but some I wont.

[JRouche]

Napa is one of the few dealers of auto parts that I will turn too. Yes, yer gonna pay a lil more money sometimes. But really, I think they make a point of only dealing in quality parts. I hate the day when they go the route of kragen or pep boys and sell crappy parts to those that want them. Lining the store front with cheesy glitter junk instead of real auto parts. One of the last big chain auto parts stores IMO. And I love having a napa store in town. JR


The Low friction design was dropped several years ago as they didnt hold up in street use because of low friction use, and never held good alignment.
Moogs ball jointsts are hard to find as they ship to so many different companies with different price lines now. True Moog joints only come to certain dealers from my experience, just cause its moog box dont mean it top of the line,,,kind of like Carquest electrical parts,,,,7 or 8 different lines and store chooses how much mark up they want to make to stay in catalog price.
Napa premium frontend parts are DANA part craft and NAPA United line brakes have never failed to perform for me in the last 20+ years of turning wrenches and racing and building cars. Some things Ill go cheap on but some I wont.

[g6t6o]

Napa is one of the few dealers of auto parts that I will turn too. Yes, yer gonna pay a lil more money sometimes. But really, I think they make a point of only dealing in quality parts. I hate the day when they go the route of kragen or pep boys and sell crappy parts to those that want them. Lining the store front with cheesy glitter junk instead of real auto parts. One of the last big chain auto parts stores IMO. And I love having a napa store in town. JR

Napa rocks, unless it's an emergency I always use them.

[amx2334]

Speaking of Moog ball joints, does anyone have any info on these ball joints? I can't find any more info on them other than at the link below. Nascar only?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/mp1002_big-1.jpg
http://www.moog10weekchallenge.com/tim_notes_412.php