II Much: Evolution (now more pics)

[parsonsj]

Hey guys,

I've been upgrading my car over the past year, and I've been getting requests to post up those changes along with some pix.

It now has awesome Vintage Air A/C (along with heater, defroster, etc.), integrated iPhone stereo/gps/internet radio, a TrueTrac differential (nee Detroit Locker), and now I'm working on replacing my old steel heim joints with these cool Delrin/steel replacements.

Steve Spohn (www.spohn.net) has been working to bring these to market for a while now, and I've just picked up a set for II Much. Those old steel heim joints (some people call them rod ends) work fine, but they transmit significant NVH (noise/vibration/harshness) into the cabin, they rattle, and they will eventually wear out.

Spohn's new Delrin/steel heim joints use a steel ball, Delrin inserts, and forged outer housing. It eliminates metal on metal contact, but is just as accurate and durable as steel on steel designs. It is also rebuildable, adjustable, and greaseable. Their only disadvantage (that I can see) is that the housing is significantly bigger: it's wider, heavier, and requires more bolt clearance (centerline of the bolt to the end of the housing). That's not a problem for me since I designed all my brackets (except one) for rubber or polyurethane bushings and so my brackets are all plenty wide enough to step up to these.

My car has been getting harsher on the street and it's because my heim joints are starting to wear. As they clearance themselves, they start to get play between the ball and the outer housing. That leads to rattles and banging noises as the clearances are taken up during acceleration and braking. As soon as I saw these, I snagged a set.

You can get these from Marcus at SC&C, since Marcus is a Spohn dealer. (www.scandc.com)

They just got here today, and I'll be installing them over the next couple of days. Here's a couple pics to start:

[454bug]

Hey John,

They really look close to the same design being used on Chris Alston Chassiswork's Billet Aluminum canted 4-bar system... Here's a picture of the Chassiswork's bars with VERY similar designs on the ends... They have the same inserts as well... I'm looking forward to getting my car finished and trying them out... I'm looking forward to hearing how you like them and how much difference they make on your vibrations and road noise...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/DSC03449-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/DSC03463-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/DSC03462-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/DSC03443-1.jpg

[parsonsj]

Ray,

That's interesting. Do the CW parts use a Delrin liner?

jp

[454bug]

Hey John,

I've taken one of the set screws out, unscrewed the end plate and looked at the internals... It has delrin material on both sides of the rotating ball...

Here is a picture of the internals from Chassiswork's catalog...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/07/fittings-1.jpg

It's VERY similar...

What I really like about this setup is when wear occurs over time you would just replace the Delrin pieces. Before the point of needing replacement it looks like you could "freshen" up the feel by loosening the set screw, tighten the end plate one more "notch", and reinstall the set screw...

[awr68]

That's a nice find John!! I will have to see if they will clear my brackets when the car gets back home!

[parsonsj]

What I really like about this setup is when wear occurs over time you would just replace the Delrin pieces. Before the point of needing replacement it looks like you could "freshen" up the feel by loosening the set screw, tighten the end plate one more "notch", and reinstall the set screw...That's how Spohn's works too. The end plate can be adjusted for the feel you're looking for, plus you can use it as the Delrin wears (and only the Delrin will wear.. the steel bits should last forever). And you can grease them to reduce wear even more.


I will have to see if they will clear my brackets when the car gets back home!Yo Anthony! Good you made the trip over. :) Definitely check it out. These aren't that expensive. Spohn calls them "Del-Sphere Pivot Joints" and they cost less than $40 apiece. About the cost of a quality steel heim joint...

jp

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

evolution of II much!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/07/5odn3a-1.gif

[Payton King]

to Currie's "Jonny Joint"

John will you and your car be back at RTTH?

[LMDGUY]

You will like those joints alot more JP. we been useing those for awhile on higher end truck builds. Im told alot off off road trucks use them also.

this is where we get them from:

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/index.html

[parsonsj]

I'm impressed with the design, that's for sure. I'm hoping to be able to try them out tonight, though I've hit a little snag. I got my threads mixed up, and I need to swap two RH pivot joints for two LH pivots.

Oops.

Payton, yes: I'm planning on being at RTTH. I'm hopeful I have my vapor lock issues solved.

[silver69camaro]

Wow, the rod end housing looks exactly like Currie JJs. Right down to the casting lines...

[parsonsj]

Yeah, no doubt. The JJ, Spohn's Pivot-Joints, and CW's billet parts all share some common design elements. How could they not? All the manufacturers that make rod ends have more similarities than differences.

The JJ internals look like the CW internals, and the Pivot-Joint housing looks like the JJ. The Pivot-Joint seems to have all the best features that I can tell: narrowest mounting bracket, adjustable and rebuildable Delrin bushings, and greaseable.

jp

[Steve68]

JP, I still need a ride! I have very bad time constraints, kids, Launch/Landing, side work!

[parsonsj]

I took these assembly photos as I swapped my old steel rod ends for these Spohn's Delrin bushed versions. I included a couple photos of the spacers and Delrin liners I used to adapt the bigger new ones to my brackets.

[parsonsj]

Here's some photos of how everything looks when it was all done (except for the lower housing ends... I'll do those next week).

I took these photos when the car was over at Norris Motorsports while Mike worked on some high rpm tuning.

[parsonsj]

And one bonus pic: II Much killing bugs!

[Hidro]

My favorite nova without a doubt, Thanks for always sharing pics! :smoke: Sweet ride and well done.

[BRIAN]

Any articulation or range restriction? You had rod ends with spacers correct? What lower cups are those on your coil overs?

That is a sharp well thought out car!

[parsonsj]

Thanks Ed!

Brian, I checked each link in my 3 link, and I had far more articulation with the new Spohn parts than I needed. I think they are similar to normal heim joints in terms of available angularity. Yes, I originally had steel rod ends with wide spacers. My brackets (originally designed for Morrison's poly ends) were just wide enough to allow me to put narrow rod end spacers with the new Spohn ends.

The coilover cups are Genesis helper spring guides. I use a spring that is shorter than my coilover so I can do quick spring swaps (not that I ever actually do a "quick" spring swap, lol). I use Hyperco helper springs to take up the slack and keep my coilover parts in alignment when the car is off the ground and the suspension is at full droop.

Here's a link:

http://www.genesisparts.com/index.cfm?tpc=Genesis_Helper_Spring_Guides&form_prod_id=1_42&action=product

jp

[preston]

Yeah I've been please so far using jonny joints on my setup. My old car had QA1 teflon lined rod ends and to be honest I didn't notice a huge reduction in NVH. I"ve thought about replacing some of the lateral links up front with these delrin pieces though since they should flex a lot less. They do have more stiction than rod ends but not enough to really matter. I knew the delrin pieces were out there but hadn't found a supplier yet, thanks.

Gave up on selling it for a GTM ? I had those thoughts as well but they passed.

[parsonsj]

Hey Preston!

If somebody shows up with a check (or even a wheelbarrow full of cash), I might consider it. But no sense waiting around for it. So I keep finding these "upgrades" to make the car better. It beats watching Desperate Housewives.

You're right about more stiction... but I can still grab them with my hand and roll them from side to side. So it makes no difference with a 3300 lb car. Now... for your lightweight Mustang... maybe it matters? :)

jp

[Bryce]

those are cool.

i have a question, have you noticed a lot less road noise? I am currently running chormoly 3 piece teflon lined rodends on my front suspension. i dont notice any real issues with transfer of energy to the chassis from the suspension. Maybe im just not sensitive to it. i love how reactive my susepnsion is with the low friction ball joints.

is there a huge weight difference between a heim and this joint?

[parsonsj]

These are pretty heavy compared to standard heim joints. Maybe twice as heavy?

Heim joints are fine at first. But as they wear, the NVH increases rapidly.

jp

[TBART70]

I wish they had this stuff when I bought the old johny joints for my front upper control arms, only 7/16 bolt hole. John what size bolts are you using. I think my Morrison rear clip has 3/4 in.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Joints/index.html
http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/spring2008/joints.htm

[parsonsj]

I'm using 5/8 bolts. The Del-Spheres are actually 3/4". I used sleeves to compensate. The threaded portion is also 3/4".

jp

[alnoe]

Hi John

Glad to see you have hung on to II much-nicest Chevy II I have ever seen....

How wide are the bushings? These may be a nice upgrade for the links in my air ride 4 link-you are right on the rod ends-they work great at first but it is amazing how they get louder very quickly.

My '67 went 12.29@115 last night at a local small track-street tires through the exhaust, traps in 3rd gear with "wimpy" rearend gear in the car. Rear suspension is definately going to get a freshening as things are beginning to wear. 11K HARD miles may do that.....

Are you going to PRI?

Al

[parsonsj]

Hi Al! It's good to hear from you.

The link housings are 1.5" wide, and the spherical portion is slightly narrower. For decent articulation, you need brackets with at least 2" of space.

Yep, Norris and I will be at PRI. We'll come find you there. Let's hope you don't have a booth next to a metal fabrication center this year. :)

jp