Here's why you need big brakes for road track use

[NOT A TA]

As you guys may have heard while watching races on TV, Sebring is notorious for being tough on brakes. They warned me in tech inspection, and I told them I was going to go easy Saturday and try to save some of the pads for Sunday because I know my (stock with semi metallic pad upgrade) brakes have a tough time on the long courses.

I normally replace all the pads/shoes/fluid after a weekend on a road track because this is whats left by Sunday afternoon at the longer tracks I've run at. It's probably a good thing I missed a couple sessions with a tire problem or things might have gotten really ugly. Usually they look a little better than this (but not much) at the other tracks if I run ALL the sessions. I missed 2 out of 8 sessions at Sebring and hardly used the brakes the first 2 sessions because I was going fairly slow, never having been there before.

The pads in the pic below were brand new with just "bedding in" miles and about a hundered highway miles on them when I went to the track. You can see how shiny the audible wear indicator still is without any cleaning. I took these pads off very, very, gently so I could document how hard road tracks are on stock brakes. The pieces laying on the side literally fell onto the floor where they are as I was removing the pads. You can easily crumble the remaining pad material right off of the rivets when they get this bad.

They were severly overheated even though I was trying to be very cautious with them. I knew by the end of my last session that the pads were going away by the pedal pressure required just to slow the car and ran the last couple laps slower to be on the "safe" side. LOL

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/07/The14Carinterior506-1.jpg

[JRouche]

WoW, thats some wear issue.. Have you not had this problem before? Or is this the first time using this specific pad. They were chewed up pretty quick. How do the rotors look??

Maybe a new pad is in order. Really one weekend should not eat your pads to the point of destruction and possible rotor scoring.

Some wilwood pads. http://brakepads.wilwood.com/
JR

[NOT A TA]

Pads don't usually look quite this bad at the end of a weekend but like I said Sebring is hard on brakes. I've used these Raybestos "heavy duty" semi metallic pads before as well as several other brands using new rotors each time a new pad type is used. This was the 3rd set of the same pads on the current rotors. They're allways trashed at the end of a weekend. The rear shoes usually crack down the center also. Usually the rotors hold up pretty good considering how bad the pads are. Minor touch up on a machine, reinstall and bed in the new pads.

Ceramic pads were worse and only lasted a day. That was a waste of a set of pads/rotors.

I've been through a couple sets of rotors and drums. The finned drums help the shoes last a little longer than the non finned ones.

I season rotors, bed in the pads, swap fluid before and after a weekend but road tracks are just really hard on stock type setups. Trying to haul down a 4000 lb object over and over puts a lot of heat into the brakes. Plus it was about 100 degrees at Sebring. Short tracks like Lime Rock are much easier on the brakes I've found. The tracks that seem toughest on brakes are the ones where there's a long straight then a slow sharp corner at the end of it.

Willwoods might be a possibility to try next. Their H compound looks like it might be good for my application and as usual they want you to use brand new rotors for that particular pad compound. Time for another set of rotors!

[Rick Dorion]

Good feedback.

At Lime Rock I was able to get away with upgraded pads and fluid in a 240Z - lighter car although some significant braking that left me with no brakes when I began with stock setup.

I wonder if a pad meant for track use would tolerate heat better? Like a Hawk or EBC?

[NOT A TA]

I was trying to stay away from having to have a set of rotors dedicated to track track days for use with race only pads. The pads with high heat ratings (over 1ooo degrees) don't work well without some heat in them. I remember the first time I got to the end of my street with some hard pads that were cold and the car wouldn't stop!

[Skip Fix]

Years ago there were some semi metallic shoes also I put on my TAs rear as well as front pads. Definitely didn't like that first morning stop!

[NOT A TA]

Years ago there were some semi metallic shoes also I put on my TAs rear as well as front pads. Definitely didn't like that first morning stop!

Those were probably similar to what I've been using. When I take the car out on the street I ride the brake a little to the end of the street to warm them up a little.

[avewhtboy]

If you haven't might check into Hawk brake pads, we used them on our Showroom Stock GT cars in SCCA racing.

They hold up really well, have several compounds to choose from. You probably know this but I can confirm they worked great on a heavy car with small brakes.

[Damn True]

You are really better off dropping in some "track pads" when you get to the track, then swapping back to something street oriented for the drive home.

There are some "comprimise" pads that work ok on a light car like a Miata, but I wouldn't trust them on something as heavy as your car.

[NOT A TA]

If you haven't might check into Hawk brake pads, we used them on our Showroom Stock GT cars in SCCA racing.

They hold up really well, have several compounds to choose from. You probably know this but I can confirm they worked great on a heavy car with small brakes.

No I didn't know about the heavy car small brake thing. I don't have much knowledge or experience with track brake setups. (obviously LOL) I've been trying to avoid having to swap rotors along with pads before and after each event. But that may have to be my answer till I can save up for brakes (which may also require buying new wheels). Been thinking maybe Hawk, Baer, or Wilwood pads for now along with a set of rotors the pads are already "bedded in" to. I'm planning on going to Road Atlanta in August (another long track, and hot in Aug.) and might try a set of dedicated rotors/pads. Hopefully I'll also get the brake ducts finished.

[Nessumsar]

I just put some Hawk HPS pads on my Nova. With those I also put some plain Brembo rotors on. With these two together, the stopping power is quite nice.

I would also check to see if your rear brakes are adjusted properly, if I remember correctly you are running drums in the rear? I would see if you can flip your star adjuster around, that way on the track the rears will automatically adjust.

[68sixspeed]

Try a Hawk HP+, they are a bit dusty for the street but are a real good track pad - much more pad would require slicks (DTC-70's, etc.) I've tracked HPS and HP+ and both are good, but I could push HPS to fade out, not with the HP+. I left them in mine after the last track day and they are still good on the street-- so far no squeeks but they still have some pad grease stuff on the backers I'd bet.

[Nessumsar]

double....

[NOT A TA]

You are really better off dropping in some "track pads" when you get to the track, then swapping back to something street oriented for the drive home.

There are some "comprimise" pads that work ok on a light car like a Miata, but I wouldn't trust them on something as heavy as your car.

I usually trailer the cars to races "just in case" and for safe overnight storage at the tracks rather than leaving them in hotel parking lots. Only once did I actually "need" the trailer when I blew the torque convertor in my 67 Nova pro streeter at the dragstrip. Of course it was one of those "just one more run" deals at the end of the day after running laps NASCAR style and using a transbrake all day long!

The makers of "Track pads" usually want you to start with a new rotor and use only one compound of brake pad with that rotor. Switching pads on a rotor bedded in with a different compound is not recommended. Engineers educated in the chemical/metalurgical bonding processes that occur figure this stuff out, so I'm gonna take their word for it and get dedicated rotors if I run "Track pads". The only track I might drive to from the house is Palm Beach International and it's an easy drive so I could just use the track rotors/pads to and from.

[NOT A TA]

Try a Hawk HP+, they are a bit dusty for the street but are a real good track pad - much more pad would require slicks (DTC-70's, etc.) I've tracked HPS and HP+ and both are good, but I could push HPS to fade out, not with the HP+. I left them in mine after the last track day and they are still good on the street-- so far no squeeks but they still have some pad grease stuff on the backers I'd bet.

Good info! I run Yokohama DOT Rs (really sticky when up to track temps) 60 treadwear and don't really care about the dust. I have to clean the wheels often anyway and all the rubber marbles are stuck all over everything after track days.Were you using the car to the limits on the HP+ pads? Threshold braking at the end of straights? Any trail braking?

This is the kind of dust I got after 3-25 minute track sessions. The "drips" are residue from cleaning fluid used to get the dust off the day before because I didn't want the tire shop guys grinding the dust into the wheel finish when I had a new tire installed. You couldn't see the drips till the new brake dust stuck to it.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/07/The14Carinterior463-1.jpg

[The Stickman]

Ouch. I have had problems with the riveted pads like that braeking off the backing and went to a pure bonded pad. But you done wore them out. I too would take extra pads with you. Not like their hard to change. They wouldn't have to be anything special as your not having braking problems per se just wear problems.

[avewhtboy]

No I didn't know about the heavy car small brake thing. I don't have much knowledge or experience with track brake setups. (obviously LOL) I've been trying to avoid having to swap rotors along with pads before and after each event. But that may have to be my answer till I can save up for brakes (which may also require buying new wheels). Been thinking maybe Hawk, Baer, or Wilwood pads for now along with a set of rotors the pads are already "bedded in" to. I'm planning on going to Road Atlanta in August (another long track, and hot in Aug.) and might try a set of dedicated rotors/pads. Hopefully I'll also get the brake ducts finished.

Which event are you coming to Atlanta for? I would love to
see your car in person, have been following your build on several threads. I might even volunteer to crew for you for the weekend.

If you could use any help. I was part of an IMSA/SCCA team for about 6 years.

Love the car don't want to see anything happen to it or you due to faulty brakes, we lost a Datsun 260Z at Road A due to brake failure.

later

[NOT A TA]

Which event are you coming to Atlanta for? I would love to
see your car in person, have been following your build on several threads. I might even volunteer to crew for you for the weekend.

If you could use any help. I was part of an IMSA/SCCA team for about 6 years.

Love the car don't want to see anything happen to it or you due to faulty brakes, we lost a Datsun 260Z at Road A due to brake failure.

later

I'm trying to get things done to go to a NASA HPDE Aug. 7-8-9. If you were on a team you know waaaaaay more than I do. I could learn a lot from someone like you instead of just going out there and seeing what happens. I'm like a new kid in kindergarden at the tracks. Pyrometers for checking tires? Duh, even if I did know the temps, I wouldn't know what to do with the information! I've got a lot to learn!

Sorry to hear about the Datsun, don't want that to happen!

I'm going to step up to a set of dedicated rotors for track use. Haven't decided on pads yet.

[6'9"Witha69]

I'm trying to get things done to go to a NASA HPDE Aug. 7-8-9. If you were on a team you know waaaaaay more than I do. I could learn a lot from someone like you instead of just going out there and seeing what happens. I'm like a new kid in kindergarden at the tracks. Pyrometers for checking tires? Duh, even if I did know the temps, I wouldn't know what to do with the information! I've got a lot to learn!

Sorry to hear about the Datsun, don't want that to happen!

I'm going to step up to a set of dedicated rotors for track use. Haven't decided on pads yet.
Tire temps are all relative. It can really help diagnose alignment issues and over/understeer conditions. It will also help in calculating the start PSI and comparing the actual PSI for proper inflation out of the pits for different tracks on different days.

[JEM]

I'm going to step up to a set of dedicated rotors for track use. Haven't decided on pads yet.

I've never run dedicated track rotors on my tracked-street-cars, not a bad idea if you're up for it though I don't really worry about pad deposition/mating (just work them in easy in the first session), rotors are a wear item, and track use in a car as heavy as a Camarobird will eat them.

Porterfield R4 is a good general-purpose high-temp track pad, Hawk Blue also good maybe even a bit more aggressive, though my experience is not with F-bodies. I've still got some Performance Friction CM90s that I use in the wet or at easy-braking tracks, haven't looked to see if that compound is still available.

Don't plan to drive any serious track pad on the street (any more than to/from the track, at least) - all the ones I've listed will stop the car fine when cold, but the noise will have pedestrians running for cover and at cold temps they'll eat your rotors in two weeks. The pin-located GM calipers are something of a PITA when it comes to quick at-the-track pad swaps.

A fresh bleed-out with a good DOT 4 fluid should be considered a minimum, if it's been in the car two months it's wet. A DOT 5.1 fluid or something like Motul 600 isn't a bad idea. Good airflow to the rotors helps a lot too.