3 Link Kit for 1st Gen Camaro

[gurney]

Hello,

Ok my eyes are burning now after searching for more info on 3 link suspension information. Are there any 3 link kits for 1st Gen Camaro's?

How about project cars implimenting this suspension setup?

Thanks in advance!

Michael

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Hey Michael, there is a three link kit coming out for first gens, but there are none currently available that I know of. The kit should be available early summer time. I've seen some preliminary pictures and this kit will be worth the wait.

[gurney]

Early summer is fine by me. I'm glad to hear that someone is working on a kit. I've been reading about:

Truck Arm
C4 IRS
Upgraded Leaf Spring Setup

I'd like to see what the installation and packaging issues are with the 3 Link. Thank you for the reply!

-Michael

[yody]

hey gizzard! glad you finally started posting on the site! you should go to new cars or something a start a post about your car. I think mean69 is coming out with a kit, or i have heard? I think the 3 link kit, if it ever comes out is going to be your best bet! like your sig pic

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Mark aka Mean69's kit is the kit i was referring to. I agree about it being your best bet for maximum performance in the rear suspension department.

[gurney]

Thanks Yody, Thanks Ralph. I'll try to bug Mark about his kit, and read a bit about what he has going on.

[ProTouringNyc]

I may be off with this post being old but is the 3 link setup available

[Matt@RFR]

Not yet, but it's definetely coming along.....

[inSANe DIEGO]

I have a plasma cutter and a certified welder who has access to mig, tig and arc machines to do my welds. I am an autocad draftsman with 15 years of drafting experience and a couple of car restorations under my belt. I feel pretty confident in my fabrication skills, but I have no idea about determining the suspension geometry requirements. Does anyone have some dimensions such as bar lengths and mounting points that I could plot out to fab the suspension pieces and get them onto the car? Also, hardware stock, bar thickness and diameter as well as endlink sizes required would be great too. I'd be willing to look at "kitting" the completed setup with parts, locating templates install instructions and pics, all necessary hardware.

[Matt@RFR]

So, basically, you're wanting one of our suspension experts, who've studied this stuff for years , to volunteer their time, and give you all the required information to build a 3-Link, and to engineer it for you? And then you're gonna put a kit together and sell it???? Wow.

C'mon man.

[MrQuick]

Its no real secret, get yourself a copy of " How to build the late model sportsman" by Steve Smith...its all there. You will have to figure out packaging though , thats not for sale. Free advice...get a good lawyer. ha ha j/k


Hi Matt

[wally8]

It's pretty simple really. It's the geometry that needs to be figured out. As far as sizes go, the cars I've been around use 5/8" heims and swedged tubes that are 1.25" dia. IIRC the thickness is around 0.120. Or you can use smaller but thicker bars (DOM tubing actually).

Lengths should be as long as you can package. The longer, the better. Check out the new Mustang suspension if you want to see an example of an incredibly short top link.

From there you need to decide what you want for IC and that sort of thing. Start with your lower bars parallel to the ground and work on the top link angle first. You can also play around with offsetting the upper link. Search for a guy named Billy Shope. He's a huge proponent of that and has all the info. He hangs out over at hotrodders.com sometimes. Norm knows something about that too if I recall.

Of course you could search for all of this as it's been discussed to death on here and other places.


Wally

[Mean 69]

Free advice...get a good lawyer.

And don't forget that not establishing a sound business structure, such as a corporation, or limited liability company is asking for serious trouble when you get sued (because someone, at some point, will). Make sure you have the design history, all aspects of specific product details, including all safety testing, etc, so you can defend yourself from the vultures of a coutroom when called upon. Then there's little things, like product liability insurance, which basically costs more than most folk's mortgage payments on a monthly basis. Being able to concisely explain the theory behind the device, in specific details, to anyone who calls for info, whether they want to buy the product or not (or are trying to gain your intelligence for knocking off a design of their own), you'll need to budget a bit of time for that too (multiply by "pie" the most hours you think you'll need to do this, that should be pretty close). Then there are the other two million aspects of running a small business.

Other than that, it's pretty straightforward.
Mark

[inSANe DIEGO]

Matt,

Calm down, please... I'm not looking to make any money at this. I have my own real career to worry about. This is something I'm into because I love my Camaro. I've seen many parts and packages out there that are only accesible to the monied or those willing to put themselves in serious debt. When I see a set of UCAs made by a racing company for racing priced at less than half of what a set of "pro touring" UCAs go for I have to think that something can be done. Take the G-mod for example. I've read in these forums that no matter what UCAs one gets, the G-mod is still needed or will greatly help- some even say that that stock UCAs are prefectly competitive after that. We can get that info for free. Where we pay is in the labor whether it's our time or our dollar to get it done. I just figured that at that price, more people like yourself that actually may be interested in making money would be on the ball about getting a supposedly simple three link setup out and at a decent price, but YOU are the only one I've heard moving on it. I know you're working on one and I'm sure it'll be sweet as hell, but I bet it'll probably sell for over a grand and a half. That's what I paid for the car. Is pro touring about how much we can spend on our cars or how well we can make them perform? I suppose my question could have been re-worded to say something more like, "has anyone worked out a 3 link, but not had the balls to do the fab and install on their car?" Now that would cause problems and that's not my intention. Maybe I could ask if anyone would like to use my car as a test bed since it's soon to be my daily driver, but now there's the issue of me ripping you/them off. SORRY...If I could retract my post or reverse time I would. In fact, I was going to qualify my post today at lunch. TOO LATE. I guess that's what I get for being excited about this stuff and posting quickly before bed instead of compiling a post and doing it the next day.

Wally8 and MrQuick,
Thank you for your input. I have been searching for a while and found nothing but two or three pics from David Pozzi and a thread recommending Chassis Engineering (big deal as far as more than basic theory goes.) After all... I AM an engineer and I realize the importance of doing calcs and getting the geometry correct. No way in hell would I just weld some bars together and throw my fat arse in the thing.

Mean69,
EXACTLY! That's why I'm NOT trying to make money with kitting a 3 link. Money was NEVER mentioned. I was merely saying that I'd be willing to duplicate what I had on my car in kit form to make it easy IF it ever came into being. Hell that's how the software world does it. It's called Alpha and Beta testing.
Enough! I'm new here and I only wanted to offer another avenue if possible to help get things happening a little easier for the common folk and maybe a little faster for others.
Sorry for the long post and I don't mean to insult those in it for the money. You ALL make fine products.

John

[wally8]

I think you can get the info you're looking for here. That shouldn't be a problem. Obviously some people misunderstood your intentions but I'm sure you'll get another chance :-)

When you say kit, what are you looking for exactly? Can you weld some things on or are you not comfortable with that? There are a lot of bolt on brackets available but welding is the preferred method for lower weight. The only thing that will be a challenge is coming up with mounts for the top link.

Let me know what your fabbing ability is (got any friends that can help?) and let's go from there. I'm game for helping you work through it.

I'm totally with you on the low price thing and circle track parts are as cheap as you can get. They have everything you need as well.

However, there's nothing wrong with those other companies, they're just expensive for all the reasons Mark gave. So with the race parts you get no warranty expressed or implied, which is cheaper. You also get no support but with some work and some help you can get it figured out on your own.

You don't have to be a suspension engineer (but it helps....). I'm just a computer engineer but I've got almost 300 pit passes worth of racing experience along with some book learnin' as well.


Wally

[Q ship]

I was merely saying that I'd be willing to duplicate what I had on my car in kit form to make it easy IF it ever came into being.

John
John, I think that's what fired things up. It's one thing to ask for your own car, but how would you do the kits? Give them away? If you recoup your investment(sell the kits) you are doing it on the back of someone elses engineering. The info doesn't come free. Also, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability risk. It may be your buddy that you "give" a kit to, but if he wrecks, guess who he(or his insurance company)will come after?

To put it another way- I have a Caprice that may someday get a 3 link. If that happens, I will contract with someone to :(1)build it for me (and I'm not rich either) or (2)do the suspension engineering for me(and pay for that info) and build it myself. If you can figure out the engineering details, more power to you-I'd prefer to have someone that has the proper education make the big decisions.

I am a do-it-yourselfer also, hell I'm painting my car in my garage soon. But for critical applications(such as making a suspension from scratch)-well, for me it's worth paying for the expertise, since I don't have it.

[wally8]

I don't want to give you a hard time Q-ship, everyone has a different risk tolerance but using your rational, hotrodding wouldn't exist.....

That's the beauty of the collective intelligence that is the web. You don't have to experiment in your own cave. You can reap the benefits of someone else's knowledge (provided they're willing to share). I'll share the little bit that I know because others shared some of it with me to begin with. This isn't rocket science. I know some people who would generally be considered incredibly unintelligent who put together some damn fine cars that are truly fast.

I believe that's the intent of this site, right?

Many people would tell you not to paint your car in your garage too. What with the possibly of neighborhood leveling explosions and polluting the entire known universe and all.

Again, I'm not trying to be harsh here. I respect your opinion and your choice, I'm just giving another perspective.



Wally

[Q ship]

Hi Wally, first off, no offense taken at all. As you say, hot rodding has been built on experimentation-but conversely, using your logic, there would be no hot rodding industry. We'd all be putting Strombergs on home built manifolds and building our own chassis from scratch!

But...we do have an industry that prospers from our interest in making cars different(not always better!). And I doubt you will find too many manufacturers or shops giving away their technology to customers. Try calling up HRTH and getting some details about a truck arm install, using the questions that John asked in his original post. If you want to help him, on a friendship basis, that's great. But to build a "mission critical" system, based on info obtained without some sound engineering background, seems foolhardy to me.

Now if John really digs into the theory, and teaches himself(or has someone teach him) chassis engineering, and truly understands why he is doing what he is doing-well, to me, that's hot rodding. Not just bolting on what someone else tells you is right, and hoping that it's right.

As for me, I really don't have the time or inclination to learn suspension theory on a molecular level, so I will have to go to someone. I just want to see that they've done their homework, and will compensate them accordingly. But that's just me!

And John, sorry if what I said somehow offends you, but I think the tone of Matt's and Mark's responses should tell you something-and I agree with them.

[inSANe DIEGO]

Guys,

I understand how my original post was misleading. Wally and Q ship, you both are right on. I was only caught up in my willingness to help get something going since I had a direct interest in it. I WAS NOT asking anyone specific for their engineering for my own gain other than MY car's better handling. That would be like me asking Pizza Hut for their exact pizza recipes so I could start a pizza shop. I was, however, asking for anyone that would willingly share their findings engineered or not as I would do my best to check things out. I just didn't want to reinvent if I didn't need to. As said before...with all the talk about 3 links for a while now, I was surprised to find only one person doing something. I felt maybe there were others that just didn't have or want to take the time to fab one up. To make all happy, I will appreciate any help given (thank you greatly for seeing what I was trying to ask, Wally) and not ask for free engineering from those in the midst of creating their own setup for profit.
I myself believe this site was created to share our knowledge so pro touring could grow- not as a big advertisement for the fabricators out there.
I have my own projects going that I may sell and would most likely just freely share the info on, but they AREN'T suspension projects and ALL the homework IS being done by ME and the knowledge I already have and continue to gain. I believe we've now officially hijacked this thread. So, sorry Michael. Can we all just get along? Wally, I will do some reading in the additional references mentioned above and get with you with questions. Anyone else that is willing to help me/us please feel free to chime in. Those that aren't, please feel free not to.

Respectfully,
John

[MrQuick]

The word of the day...bran muffins...
John, seriously go here (http://www.ssapubl.com/) and buy this (http://www.ssapubl.com/index.cfm?do=detail&productid=83) or if your not fond of words and pictures you can buy this (http://www.ssapubl.com/index.cfm?do=detail&productid=85). When I say it has everything you need,I mean EVERYTHING you need. Material type, mounting type, measurements, etc. etc.
The thing you will have to come up with is packaging...should not be a problem for you. If you want a couple ideas go to my home page...like I said "not a secret". Order now...it took 4 days to get to my mail box

[Mean 69]

There are some really good pointers in the archive section on this board too, I'd recommend that as well.

M

[Q ship]

The word of the day...bran muffins...

Yeah Vince, you're right......I'll get off the pulpit now.

John, sorry to misread your intentions. Here's a link (http://members.webpathway.com/[email protected]/mustang/rear-suspension.html) to how one guy is doing it.

And no hard feelings to anyone, just stating my opinions.....on the internet.....to strangers. I gotta get out more!!

[inSANe DIEGO]

Thanks for the info... time to study! :bananna2:

[rallyrat427]

sooo ... is a 3 link kit still going to be made? .. and if so will it fit a 72 nova?

[Mean 69]

Yes, it most certainly will. As a general update, you can look at the ranting I did on the previous post in this thread, this is what we are dealing with now, all of the necessary issues prior to commercializing the product. It is a ton of work, and is taking longer than I had anticipated. In addition, we just moved into a new shop, and are trying to settle in there. Lastly, the test mule is undergoing some changes to make it safer to do hard core testing (read:track-worthy/safe), such as serious front brakes and a roll cage, to name a few. At the mercy of some suppliers that are late, this too is taking longer than I had wanted. The first track shakedown was supposed to be tomorrow at Buttonwillow, coincident with the Speedventures open track event, but the car is not ready. The frustrating part is that the rear suspension is complete, and "merely" needs to be tweaked in (shock valving, spring rates, etc). The car should be back on the road in a couple days for more street miles to further shake the car down, and then track testing will occur next month.

I apologize for the delays, lack of information, etc. I really had hoped to be selling the product already, but it looks as if it is still a few months out before we are ready to ship. I continue to be super excited about the performance, and continue to see numerous examples of this suspension approach in professional racing (the most dramatic example was at the Rolex/Grand Am race at California Speedway a few weeks back, the GTO that ran there had its IRS suspension torn out and replaced with a stick axle three link, made me smile!). Just as I am hurting right now on my project due to others, I know that some folks are waiting on me, and that doesn't feel too good. Nothing good comes easy.

Incidentally, the name of the new company is called "Lateral Dynamics, LLC."

Thanks,
Mark

P.S. Regarding fitment to other platforms, we FULLY intend to adapt the design to other cars, as well as develop other serious duty applications, including front suspension setups.

[JLM]

Thanks for the update Mark. I'm extreamly interested in this. It sounds like it may be available right around the time I'll be looking to complete my suspention (mid summer). Do you know if using the factory fuel tank will be an issue with packaging? Should I plan ahead and go for a fuel cell?

-Jason

[Mean 69]

Stock fuel tank is not an issue, it will fit just fine. I am running DSE's awesome deep tubs on the car, and I elected to run a cell due to the intent of the car, but a stock tank will fit no problem (including WITH the deep tub kit). Back seat will need to be a custom deal, with split "buns" like a late model Camaro uses.

Mark

P.S. Thanks for the interest!

[Nutsy]

Mark,

As we have corresponded in email before, you know my interest in your setup. I should be at the stage for this mid-summer as well. Please keep me (and all of us) posted.

Trev

[rallyrat427]

what do you figure the price range on this kit will be?

[Pzary3233]

I second the question about the price range. how much cutting of the car do you guys expect to be required? Besides cutting and welding what other fabrication will need to be done? Brackets for the rear end?
Thanks,
Paul Z.

[Mean 69]

As it stands, the kit will come with a new housing, a Ford 9" based unit. We will probably sell the housing empty, but with axles, meaning the customer will have to buy the center section and gears, etc. There are just too many options in that area for us to handle early on. The reason for the 9" unit is the upper link mount, I have not seen, nor have we been able to come up with an appropriate design to modify a stock 12 bolt housing, such as originally came with the cars, for the upper link mount. The cast center section is just not friendly in terms of this aspect, and a bolt on type of deal is cumbersome, and much weaker than a purpose built piece. All brackets will be fully welded in place, and the housing will be cambered and toe'd to our spec after fabrication. It is a snap to drop a center section into a 9", once the gears are setup (by a professional) on the bench, it bolts right up.

There will very likely be several options, or at least two significant ones, that will affect the overall cost of the unit. One, the shock selection is a major cost driver, depending upo how "core" you are, this can get pricey, very quickly (the shocks on the test mule, for instance, are Penske double adjustable units, which retail for about $750 per shock). Once we sort out spring rates and valving, we are intent on working with Bilstein to spec a custom shock for the application which will be significantly less expensive, but still a bunch better than typical hot rod type shocks. The second option, again based upon how serious the customer is, would be full floating axles and the corresponding hubs, drive plates, etc. Again, the test mule uses this setup, knowing that this is far superior in terms of durability for a car that will see significant track duty. However, I can see that many folks would like to utilize their existing brakes, etc, so the option to have standard type axles, etc is probably a "must."

Lastly, it will obviously need to be competitively priced relative to similar types of comparable setups (which clearly there are few at this time). A rough estimate that you can use for budgeting purposes would be in the $3500 to $3800 range, of course going up from there depending upon upgrades, etc. Keep in mind, pricing is by no means set at this point.

As far as complexity, installation will be very similar to those skills needed to install a set of through-floor subframe connectors, mini-tub kit, etc. A clear set of installation instructions will be included, so relative to doing a typical "back half" drag race type frame setup, it should be a lot easier. It is a fair amount of work, no question, but so far the results show that it is completely worth the effort for folk wanting a car that will really perform on the road course.

Mark

[Nutsy]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooh i can't wait. :drool: Thanks for giving us the 411 Mark! Sounds like it will be pretty good.

Trev

[Q ship]

That does it! I'm taking a welding class!!

Seriously, thanks for the info Mark. Makes it easier to plan ahead. I'm very very interested in this.

[Steve1968LS2]

Incidentally, the name of the new company is called "Lateral Dynamics, LLC."

Thanks,
Mark



Hmmm.. why does that name sound familiar? I heard it will be near San Diego and that fun people will work there :)

Damn.. a local performance shop?!?.. where is that fainting smilie??

[yody]

will you also make a kit with just the instructgions and fab pieces? So the do-it-yourselfers can weld up the stuff themselves and save some money? what if you already have the 9" and so forth? I think a lot of people would be interested in a kit like that. Also don't forget the second gen!! they also already have split rear seats

[68protouring454]

Email Me,
Jake

[gurney]

I've been gone. My wife and I went on a cruise (woohoo). There is some great information on the three link kit.

After reading that great article on "Big Red", I'm going to get the tape and video about building stock car tube chassis front ends. More soon...and thanks!

Michael

[BuddyP]

This deal here had gotten my attention... Now for some basic questions for a newbie...

What are some of the basic performance differences between the 3 link kit vs a standard drop leaf setup? Also what configuration should one have in the front suspension to mate with this 3 link setup?

[baz67]

Buddy give this a read. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=203

[johnm]

Any news on this one?

John