Am I missing something? Alignment problem

[Phishfud]

I bought the SPC alignment tool and a box of shims. Started to do my alignment and just cannot seem to get the camber set even close. Car is a 78 TA, Hotchkis springs, Pro-Touring F-body UCA's, B-body spindles. When I started, there were a few shims in the rear bolt, none at front and it was at 3.5' (assuming I'm reading right, center of bubble, like a level, right?). After much fighting, I have four 1/8" shims in the front and rear bolts and am still at just less than 1'. I'm pretty much out of bolt length here to go further. I havent even gotten to Caster yet, but there is 5' built into the arms. So is this normal to need so many shims? Or longer bolts? Am I going in the correct order here? This is my first DIY alignment, so any help at all would be great. Thanks in advance.
Terry

[nicks67camaro]

I have used this tool with much success. This may be stating the obvious but is the allen head screw one the side of the vial in? This keeps the tool fixed for your camber reading. You then loosen this screw once you turn your wheels out to set caster to "0" then use the knob to fix this setting.

[Phishfud]

I loosened the allen screw to level the unit on the floor, and used the black knob to keep it in place. When I do this, the allen screw won't go back in. After re-leveling it again, it's now almost at 0(when attached to the wheel), and I haven't changed any shims at all. If I set it at factory 0, I am then at almost 2' on the car. I am trying to line up the center of the bubble with what reading I want correct?

[nicks67camaro]

I loosened the allen screw to level the unit on the floor, and used the black knob to keep it in place. When I do this, the allen screw won't go back in. After re-leveling it again, it's now almost at 0(when attached to the wheel), and I haven't changed any shims at all. If I set it at factory 0, I am then at almost 2' on the car. I am trying to line up the center of the bubble with what reading I want correct?

I tried the same thing when I first got mine. When the allen head bolt is screwed in the tool is a true 90 degrees. If you are not on a reasonably level area then make it level (you can use a 6ft level laserlevel ect. I like to use sections of lenolium floor to shim the car level. once you establisted the car is reasonably level then screw the allen head in all the way then put it on the tire. this will give you your true camber setting. If you think its not accurate of your still way off use a small cheap level (one with a vertical bubble) across the rim and see if it leaning in or out. I am fairly confident that you'll have a negative camber reading with the allen head all the way in.
here is a quick and dirty on how I do my at home alignment (over 5k miles and not issues)

(all needs to be done at ride height and full weight of car ie hood / fenders / engine ect

1. use cardbord / lenolium or other low friction under tires to keep binding/friction to a minimum (and keep the car level)
2. roll the car back and forth to get the suspension unloaded (not sure if really nessecary but I do it)
3. Set you caster first (being mindful that you will need to add or take away shims so I start 2 shims in)
4. Camber is easy just add or take away shims till your reading is on. (just rember to add and subtract from each adjuster so you are not changing your caster.
5. recheck Caster (if you have a machine reading then you may not need to do this)
6. Set Toe making sure your caster / Camber doens't change
7. If "6" changes then just make minor adjustments.

[Phishfud]

Well, the car is level side to side. I screwed in the allen bolt all the way, and it now reads about 1.5 positive. I checked the caster on that wheel (pass side) and came out at 4 pos, which is fine. If I got longer bolts I could get the camber right with more shims, but this doesn't seem right to me. Checked the wheel with a level as well, and it's definately still leaning out.

[JRouche]

Well, the car is level side to side.

Not just side to side but front to back also. Needs to be level (flat) with the earth if you are using a bubble gauge. Level surface and some turn plates are good too. JR

[79T/Aman]

you do have the A-arms on correctly? , the offset should be to the rear of the car

[Phishfud]

I'm pretty sure the arms are on right, but I very well could have em on the wrong side or upside down. I will double check and add a pic of the arms.

I started messing with the drivers side last night, and I can only get to 0 before running out of bolt to put shims on. I will check front to back level as well. I appreciate the help guys.

[Phishfud]

Here is a pic of how I have the arms on. This is an OLD pic, and the car is fully together now. This is just for reference. The other side is installed the same way.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/0147-1.jpg

[nicks67camaro]

Is all the weight on the front? hood/fenders/engine ect?

[Phishfud]

Yep. Car is fully together, runs and drives. It's really close to level as well. I'm stumped here.

[Phishfud]

Now this seems odd. I equaled out the lengths of my tie rod assemblies, just to rule that out. I had the car up in the air, and no shims of any kind on the driver's side, bolts on the a-arms loose. Let the car down, rolled it back and forth, and then put the gauge on. Got the driver's side to -1/4 camber, but with a good bit of shims. Passenger side is still a tad above +1, and cannot go any further in on top. I'm mysified.

[nicks67camaro]

is this the first time using these upper a-arms and doing an alignment?? or were the arms on before?

[Phishfud]

This is the first time. Bought em new. Car hasn't been on the road in 4 years and had a full resto, so everything is new. I have +5 caster on both wheels, -1/4 camber on drivers side and about +1 on pass side. It has to either be the arms, like maybe one is longer than the other, or the b-body spindles somehow. Lower control arms are stock.

[a67]

I don't have any experience with your setup (B-body spindles and the UCA's on a '78 f-body). However, is this set up supposed to work? I would look into what others have done starting with the b-body spindles.

If you have the original UCA's try making some measurements to verify the ball joint stud to crossbar distance. Measure the current UCA's for the same. See if both are the same side to side. Probably won't be easy with them on the car, but it may start pointing to the issue.

If you plan on continuing with home alignments try to get a set of turntables. I was never able to get a decent alignment or repeatability until I started using a set.

Night and day difference.

a67

[Phishfud]

I don't really know if this combo is supposed to work, but these arms are supposed to be a replacement for stock, just with better geometry. Since you can run the b-body spindles with stock arms, I assumed this combo would be ok. I'm realixing that it isn't working, and I need a new plan. Wanna keep the spindles as I only did em to get the 1LE 12" brake setup on, and don't wanna lose it.

Turntables would be sweet. Iused some linoleum tiles, which really helped alot, but wasn't effortless.

[JRouche]

Ok, after reading your last post you need to measure the arms. Compared to the stock arms, you dont have them anymore right?? Umm, ok. So you make the arms you have work.

And yeah, turn plates make home alignment a breeze. I picked up some nice ones off ebay. Came from an alignment rack.

But really, not all is lost. What is the length of the arms you have?? 8 or 9 inches? Thats common. And really, a thick shim pack wont hurt anything. Proper bolts are needed. JR

[Phishfud]

No, didn't keep the stock arms, but I can measure the ones on my 70 Camaro as a close reference. If I can get longer bolts(which I could order longer versions of the stainless ARP ones I'm using now), and just get it to spec regardless of shims, that would be great. I don't wanna have to get new arms, but I have been eyeing up the SPC adjustable ones...

[79T/Aman]

the A-arms are the same as they are made on the same fixture so that's not the issue, the pic shows the A-arm on the correct way but could the other side be on upside down?

[Phishfud]

I double checked the other side, and the offset is to the rear. Could it be the b-body spindles? Can these arms be run with them?

[79T/Aman]

the B-body spindles are 98% the same as the F-body spindles so that is not the problem, I see the A-arms you have are our old design, do they have the offset cross shafts? if so one may be rotated 180*

[Phishfud]

I'm not sure if the cross shafts are offset. How can I tell, and how can I tell if one is 180 off? If it is, what's the fix for it? Thanks for the help.

[79T/Aman]

look at them from the top you should be able to see if the shaft is in line with the bushings or not, our older A-arms did not have offset cross shaft, the new ones do this started about 3 years ago.
If you do have ofset shafts and one is 180* off just unbolt it from the frame mount and twist the shaft over

[Phishfud]

I'll take a look. I know I bought mine within the last three years, so they must be.

[JRouche]

I thought that offset was for caster changes, not gonna do much for the camber issue??

Oh, and I saw you are looking at the SPC arms, so am I. Im pretty close to dropping the change to get them, tossed around all the options, including welding up my own, the cost was a wash really.. Lemme know what you end up with.... JR

[79T/Aman]

no, offset cross shafts are for camber, althougthey can provide additional bolt length availability to add more shims for caster adjustment

[Phishfud]

I took a look at the arms and they don't appear to be offset. The shaft is straight and in line with both bushings.

[79T/Aman]

well you need to check again something is not right, our arms are 1/4 shorter than the stock ones that would need LESS shims to get the camber setting, I do have a car here that has ove 3/4" of shims on one side just to get to the stock setting, so I can see if you have a car that is way of you could run short on the studs with the thick steel shaft