Question about Pontiac Headers

[Gil]

Hello all,

I have a Firebird 69 with a 455 a bit modified with 6X D port heads.

What do you think would be better to use,

Hedman Hedders Ceramic coated or Long Branch D-Port Headers ?

Witch one would be better for clearance & performance ?

Thanks a lot
Gil

[wmhjr]

Neither.

With the Hedmans, you'll likely have to modify them for fitment - at least there's a good chance. If you go that route don't buy them coated, and only coat them after fitting them. You'll lose performance with the long branch manifolds, but maybe if the engine is real mild in terms of modification it won't be bad. Dougs makes the best fitting headers for both least obstructions and not hanging as low. They're more expensive for a reason. Best long brances that I'm aware of are from Ram Air Restorations.

[Roadbuster]

Yep. Dougs are supposed to be the cats meow for Pontiacs. Check out this thread (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35787&highlight=headers&page=10). User Code Red has them on his 68 GTO. Those are on my wish list!

Jon

[wmhjr]

I've got them on my '66. Here's a pic of how nice they tuck up tight.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/5April2009GTO010-1.jpg

Note: I originally bought Dougs headers that were actually ceramic coated by Dougs, but I returned them as the quality of the coating was not acceptable. Here are some pics of the initial header coating quality:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/22February2009GTO008-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/22February2009GTO011-1.jpg


I ended up purchasing a set of Dougs Headers coated by Thermal Tech. The coating was of a far better quality.

[Gil]

Whaou !! Well... Thanks a lot.

I think I'll buy a pair of LB-1 Long Branch D-Port Factory Headers from RamAir, even if I have to adapt my oil filter.

Regards
Gil

[L n L]

If you are just going to go cruising, then the long branches will be fine.

Like mentioned already, I suggest staying away from the Heddman. Years ago, a "rock n rollin" Pontiac self-proclaimed "expert" talked me into buying a set for a '67 Firebird. "They fit better 99% of the time".

After finding out that I had to seriously hammer on them to fit around the steering linkage, some more to NOT directly contact the starter motor, totally reweld and reshaped the ports to match the heads, and THEN no longer be able to spin the oil filter on/off, I called the "expert" back. Turns out he had never even actually installed a set of these on a 1st-gen!

Doug's fit good on A-bodies, but I'm not sure on F's. I'd suggest going to performanceyears.com and asking on their exhaust section. A few years ago, there was a guy there making some REALLY nice headers - but I don't know if he is still doing it or not.

Lee

[critter]

Check out Maddog headers and have them coated by someone who does it right.

http://maddogheaders.net/

[Gil]

Thanks all...

Well, yes it'll be a cruising car, but the engine is a bit strong, I think more or less 400+hp... done the 1/4 mile in 13sec...

I have to rebuild the all exhaust. I'll do it in 2.5" but... I'll stay away from Heddman and I'm not sure long branch will be enough...

Maybe Dougs uncoated would be fine...

Gil

[wmhjr]

I would check in at some of the Pontiac forums. My guess is that the Dougs will fit real well, but I've never built a Poncho F-body, so I'm not sure. You didn't say if you were a manual or auto tranny. If you've got an auto I'd just get the Dougs from Thermal Tech with their coating and be done with it. If you've got a 4spd you probably just want to check to make sure.

I would plan on having to unbolt the motor mounts and at least tilt the motor to get the headers in. The head and exhaust port configuration on the pontiacs makes the job not much fun. The exhaust header are just so darned low that there's no room. Maybe the F-Body cars are easier. In my case with the A-Body, with no body on the frame, I had to have the headers in place and lower the motor down - pretty much a millimeter at a time with extra hands to hold the polished ceramic coated headers clear. No fun.

[critter]

No, F-body cars can be just as be a PITA on installing headers. That's why I yanked my Hooker SC. I'm an SD car so I'm running the after market SD manifolds with the 2.5 inch outlet. They seal up well, look stock and flow pretty well. I gave up about 20hp going with the manifolds but I love the ground clearance and stock look.

[b-man]

You really can't compare the GTO Ram Air/HO exhaust manifolds with the early F-body long-branch manifolds when it comes to flow.

The long-branch style Ram Air/HO manifolds that came on the '67 -'69 Firebirds and '65 -'69 Pontiac big cars are a much better flowing exhaust manifold design than the shorter '67 -'72 GTO and '70 -'74 2nd-gen Firebird Ram Air/HO manifolds that are not the long-branch style.

The D-port long-branch manifolds are nearly as good as most street headers. They will easily support a 400 HP 13-second Pontiac.

If you had round-port heads you could order up a set of Super Long Branch manifolds with 3" exits, these are a very attractive alternative to headers.

If you decide to buy headers get some from Doug's. I've seen them on a first-gen Firebird and they were beautifully made with great ground clearance.

Some real-world testing info, copied and pasted from the SD Performance website:

Ram Air Exhaust Manifolds or Headers?

November 29, 2008


We get asked this question a lot so we thought we'd outline some criteria to consider when choosing.

Early on we learned that camshaft selection is very critical when using the Ram Air Exhaust Manifolds compared to headers, tighter lobe seps along with long durations just don't work since they need the exhaust scavenging of a longer primary tube runner which are found only in long tube tubular headers.

When using the RA manifolds we suggest a cam with a minimum of a 112 lobe sep if not more, along with keeping the duration on the smaller side to reduce overlap.

The hyd. roller cams are perfect for use with Ram Air manifolds because the fast lobe ramps reduce overlap while providing more power building area under the curve at higher lifts. We have various custom grinds that we have tested that give up very little power over 1 3/4" 4 tube headers.
Years ago we tested a 467ci 9.5 to 1 OEM D-port headed engine in which we were running an Ultradyne Solid Flat Tappet cam with 263/271 dur. @ .050 on a 112 lobe sep, the engine made 502hp with 1 3/4" Hooker SC headers when we switched over to A-body Ram Air manifolds, peak hp dropped to 457hp and at 6000rpm we saw close to a 75hp drop, obviously this combo worked much better with headers, the reason being that this particular camshaft has a lot of overlap and needs the long primary tubes of a tubular header.

In the last year we've built a couple of different combo's designed around a completely stock look, using iron heads, iron intake and Ram Air Exhaust manifolds.One engine, making right around 450hp only lost 7 hp and 8 lb/ft of torque in a back to back test switching from 1 3/4" open headers to 2.45" A-body RA manifolds with short 90 deg. mandrel bent dumps. We were very pleased with the results but thought what about a 500hp combo?

Recently we had the opportunity to build a serious "sleeper" engine for a customer. We took a numbers correct 71 GTO 400 engine and turned it into a 498ci torque monster but popping the hood won't reveal anything trick. The compression was set at an extremely pump gas friendly 9.3 to 1, the heads are 260cfm CNC ported #96 castings along with a "Rugglized" CNC machined and port matched 71 OEM iron intake. The Cam is our "Old Faithful" grind with a 114 lobe sep. The goal of this test was to do a comparison on a safe real world tune up so we didn't chase every pony available but needless to say we didn't leave much on the table. We started with the A-body RA manifolds again with the short 90 deg. mandrel bent dumps, the engine produced 496hp @ 5100rpm and over 580lb/ft of torque @ 4000rpm.Switching over to a set of 1 3/4" Hooker SC headers only increased the power to 504hp @ 5100rpm and over 590 lb/ft of torque @ 4000rpm. Considering that some longer head pipes on the manifolds could tighten up the difference even more, makes using the RA manifolds in this application an excellent choice.

Hopefully this will give you some valuable information to help decide which direction to go or you can always drop us a line to discuss your specific combination. We will continue to compare headers to the RA manifolds on other combo's in the future and will share this info with our customers.

[Gil]

All right, thanks a lot guys, I have my answer. I wasn't sure but now I know it'll be a pair of LB-1 Long Branch D-Port Factory Headers from RamAir.

Gil

[MonzaRacer]

tip one if it isnt efi dont use gaskets, use DAP Dow Corning 50 yr clear silicone on the flanges, zero leaks and let it set till cured, like putem on at night and drive next day, got 4 yrs from old cruddy headers I bought for my old 402 bbc and they had a nasty header leak groove burnt into them, never leaked and stayed tight!
Dougs ,Hooker, just about any header works fine on a Pontiac unless your building some super high rpm piece, as Ponchos are low end torque monsters if built/tuned right. Drove mine for years my 69 Executive with a mild 400(builder messed up and swapped my 428 with guys 400) ran 13.232 best in 1/4 mile with 2.93 posi!

And that was with stock manifolds and single pipe exhaust!

[wmhjr]

Dougs ,Hooker, just about any header works fine on a Pontiac unless your building some super high rpm piece, as Ponchos are low end torque monsters if built/tuned right.

Difference isn't performance so much. It's fitment. The exhaust ports on a poncho are in a different geometric location than in a SBC or BBC for example. So, (especially in early A-Body cars) it makes for REAL REAL tight fitment. There is probably maybe 1/4" clearance between my Dougs headers and a number of frame spots. Lower control arm rear mounting points, the frame itself, etc. I've put bunches of headers on Chevies, and dealing with this Pontiac has been WAY tighter.

Now, if you use a tube chassis and get rid of inner fenders, less of any issue.

[MonzaRacer]

I know I put a 2x4 flat tappet cammed 400 in my 69 Ventura and a set of headers from a 64 Tempest, very tight.