Succesful Steps In Building a A-Body Suspension

[1nkred1ble]

After countless hours of searching the archives of pt.com, lateralg.net, ls1tech.com, google, and every other website that google pulled up i still find myself lost and i have not been able to move on from stage 1 of a good suspension build.
It seems like the more information ive soaked in the more confused i get as to what should be the appropriate steps into building a suspension for my 1970 chevelle.

Originally pre pro-protouring.com i was getting ready to dump all my money into my 496 bbc but know after reading post after post i have decided to work up my suspension giving me extra time to decide what to do underneath the hood.

Engines for me in my naiveness( is that even a word??) small block or bigblock are easy to figure it out. Stroke it out add a couple majical parts and hit the 500hp BOOM DONE!!!!

but this whole suspension thing goes wayyyyyy over my head.
theirs not alot of specific information out there when it comes to a good suspension set up for a 70 chevelle. In a perfect world i would just go with a air ride but thats alot of money for me.

my plans are to have a suspension that rides really nice thats my priority, being able to hug a curb at 100mph would be nice but not as important since i dont plan on road racing or auto x'ing my car.

thanks guys for the information i really appreciated.

[gearheads78]

Call Markus at SC&C, listen to him, give credit card number, install parts, enjoy. :woot:

AFX spindle is best but stageII+ is a close second thats what I did.

[1badchevelle]

no matter what you decide go with afx(ats) spindle. Give me a call when you get a chance,

Get off the computer and start working on the car. (at least get the part so we can try to get the car started) :getout:

[1badchevelle]

try this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130306036039&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=

[6'9"Witha69]

I will second the recommendation for Marcus @ SC&C. For everyone who has ever gone his way has been happy.

http://www.scandc.com/

[1nkred1ble]

lol
i will call you tomorrow, maybe you can come with me so we can go get some parts together.
& i hope mark is ready form my million questions on monday!!!

[Roadbuster]

x3 on calling Mark!

Check out my build thread in my sig and you can see the setup Mark worked for my 68 GTO (same frame as your 1970 Chevelle)

It works very well and has no bump steer!

Jon

[MCMLXIX]

Mark will talk your ear off... but the Chevelle will be better off because of it...
For some Chevelle specific stuff... http://www.chevelles.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=56

[gearheads78]

lol
I hope mark is ready form my million questions on monday!!!

I hope you are ready for 2 million answers:razz:

[b-man]

Mark really knows his product and will gladly share plenty of additional product and setup info that you didn't even know to ask for.

You'll be glad you called SC&C.

[1nkred1ble]

hey guy thanks for the responses, i will call mark first thing monday.
Hey RoadBuster
if you dont mind me asking how much did that package run you?
Looks beautiful!!!

[bret]

I am obviously biased as hell, but this package does nothing wrong:

http://www.ridetech.com/products/68_72_GM_A_Body_Level_2_Package-1584-941.html

And if you want to upgrade to the Street Challenge level you get the double adjustable shocks, LevelPro right height sensors, and swaybars. You can expect your car to perform like this:

http://www.ridetechtv.com/featured_landing.php?reset=true

with this result:

http://www.ridetech.com/more/2009/03/20/suspension-shootout-results/

You'll see this Chevelle and our Velocity Camaro in action at the Motorstate Challenge in Michigan in June.

Come up and check it out!

[dhutton]

I am obviously biased as hell, but this package does nothing wrong:

http://www.ridetech.com/products/68_72_GM_A_Body_Level_2_Package-1584-941.html

And if you want to upgrade to the Street Challenge level you get the double adjustable shocks, LevelPro right height sensors, and swaybars. You can expect your car to perform like this:

http://www.ridetechtv.com/featured_landing.php?reset=true

with this result:

http://www.ridetech.com/more/2009/03/20/suspension-shootout-results/

You'll see this Chevelle and our Velocity Camaro in action at the Motorstate Challenge in Michigan in June.

Come up and check it out!

Bret, any news on an A body Street Challenge kit that uses Shockwaves instead of the double adjustable shocks?

Thanks,
Don

[bret]

I assume that you are talking about the rear of the A body? The reason we don't do a ShockWave for the rear is...there is really no reason to. GM very thoughtfully located the shock separately from the spring, with both being in a good location and out of harms way. I looked at doing a ShockWave system for the rear but I couldn't think of any performance or convenience advantage so we passed on it for the moment. We offer the CoolRide airspring [which is a drop in] and a double adjustable shock [also a drop in] and now the Titanium series monotube remote reservoir double adjustable shock. We also have prototypes of an adjustable upper control am with an articulating front joint that we just put on my GSX and our 66 Chevelle. Those should be available by the 1st of July.
We also just finished up on our new front modular swaybar for the 64-67 A bodies and the 68-72 A bodies. [yes, they are different] We'll be shipping on those by June 10.

[gizmo]

Define "nice"? Because plenty of cars that handle well but probably seem "harsh" to the average joe?

[bret]

Define "nice"? Because plenty of cars that handle well but probably seem "harsh" to the average joe?

You pose an excellent question, one that has been asked in various forms of us for the last 15 years. To answer it we are actually working on a device that will quantify ride quality performance much like you can already quantify cornering performance in terms of lap times and skidpad numbers. But for the moment, I have no definitive explanation for "nice". I will be gald to take anyone for a ride if we can meet up at a Goodguys show or other events. That is the ultimate confirmation of any ride quality level anyway. Even the oem engineers with all their data gathering equipments do thir final ride quality tuning with the time tested "assometer". No substitute for an analog evaluation of a digital problem!

[dhutton]

I assume that you are talking about the rear of the A body? The reason we don't do a ShockWave for the rear is...there is really no reason to. GM very thoughtfully located the shock separately from the spring, with both being in a good location and out of harms way. I looked at doing a ShockWave system for the rear but I couldn't think of any performance or convenience advantage so we passed on it for the moment. We offer the CoolRide airspring [which is a drop in] and a double adjustable shock [also a drop in] and now the Titanium series monotube remote reservoir double adjustable shock. We also have prototypes of an adjustable upper control am with an articulating front joint that we just put on my GSX and our 66 Chevelle. Those should be available by the 1st of July.
We also just finished up on our new front modular swaybar for the 64-67 A bodies and the 68-72 A bodies. [yes, they are different] We'll be shipping on those by June 10.

Thanks Bret. I remember reading here a few months ago that you were working on a Shockwave for the rear, hence my question.

[gizmo]

You pose an excellent question, one that has been asked in various forms of us for the last 15 years.I was actually asking the OP what he meant by "nice" because I wasn't sure what exactly he was looking for when he asks for a "nice" ride.

My apologies, I should've overtly directed that response to the OP.

[Roadbuster]

hey guy thanks for the responses, i will call mark first thing monday.
Hey RoadBuster
if you dont mind me asking how much did that package run you?
Looks beautiful!!!

Price I paid was same as SC&Cs web site plus shipping. The parts came with lots of tech support too! Plenty of phone calls to Mark to make sure I got it right. The only front suspension part between the steering column and the road that I have not replaced is the pitman arm. It is a non wearing part so it just needed a new coat of paint. It is a PITA to get off the old box though.


Jon

[1nkred1ble]

I am obviously biased as hell, but this package does nothing wrong:

http://www.ridetech.com/products/68_72_GM_A_Body_Level_2_Package-1584-941.html

And if you want to upgrade to the Street Challenge level you get the double adjustable shocks, LevelPro right height sensors, and swaybars. You can expect your car to perform like this:

http://www.ridetechtv.com/featured_landing.php?reset=true

with this result:

http://www.ridetech.com/more/2009/03/20/suspension-shootout-results/

You'll see this Chevelle and our Velocity Camaro in action at the Motorstate Challenge in Michigan in June.

Come up and check it out!


i would love to upgrade to a aride somewhere in the future, but right now its a little over my budget. Im looking to spend around 2-3 thousand for my suspension

[1nkred1ble]

Define "nice"? Because plenty of cars that handle well but probably seem "harsh" to the average joe?


A wise man once told me that I am going to jump into my chevelle and expect it to ride as nice as my daily driver. So I guess that would be my bench mark for "nice"

[1nkred1ble]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/nicechevelllllleee-1.jpg

looking for this stance, this is what the site said they used. Do you guys believe theirs more to this stance?

Hotchkis SwayBars
2inch Drop Spindles Front
Four Corner Coilovers
Polished Stainless Steering Shaft
Wilwood 4 wheel disc brake

[BobB66SS]

I have 2" drop spindles, coilovers on each corner, Hotchkis frt bar and DSE rr bar and can get my stance just like the one above (if I wanted). Make sure you factor in the impact on exhaust clearance; my Hooker header collectors are only 3" off the ground as the car sits.

[1nkred1ble]

I have 2" drop spindles, coilovers on each corner, Hotchkis frt bar and DSE rr bar and can get my stance just like the one above (if I wanted). Make sure you factor in the impact on exhaust clearance; my Hooker header collectors are only 3" off the ground as the car sits.

Thanks for the reassurance, i think im going to go with the coil over set up, if you dont mind me asking what coil over and spindle are you using? and how is the drive?

[BobB66SS]

QA1 adjustable coilovers with 450 lb straight rate springs and Belltech 2" drop spindles on the frt. I may have been able to get away with not using the drop spindles given how far up I have the coilovers set to get the ride height where you see it, but that likely would have made the suspension geometry worse with the car down that far. Plus the drop spindles went on with the Baer brakes a few yrs back, long before I added the coilovers, so I elected to stay with them.

The rr susp is 100% DSE. SwivelLink upper and lower ctrl arms, their braces, coilovers, and their sway bar kit. Very easy to install, just a few holes to drill.

The car rides great, even with 40 series frt and 35 series rr tires, and handles even better than I thought it might. Tracks true, no wandering, corners very flat. Haven't had a chance to autocross it yet but for spirited street driving it's a ball.

[gearheads78]

I have 2" drop spindles, coilovers on each corner, Hotchkis frt bar and DSE rr bar and can get my stance just like the one above (if I wanted). Make sure you factor in the impact on exhaust clearance; my Hooker header collectors are only 3" off the ground as the car sits.

I already said it once but its worth repeating. The new combo on your car took it from already incredible to absolutly perfect.

[1nkred1ble]

sorry for my ignorance but whats a "rr" ???

rear end?

[protour_chevelle]

QA1 adjustable coilovers with 450 lb straight rate springs and Belltech 2" drop spindles on the frt. I may have been able to get away with not using the drop spindles given how far up I have the coilovers set to get the ride height where you see it, but that likely would have made the suspension geometry worse with the car down that far. Plus the drop spindles went on with the Baer brakes a few yrs back, long before I added the coilovers, so I elected to stay with them.

The rr susp is 100% DSE. SwivelLink upper and lower ctrl arms, their braces, coilovers, and their sway bar kit. Very easy to install, just a few holes to drill.

The car rides great, even with 40 series frt and 35 series rr tires, and handles even better than I thought it might. Tracks true, no wandering, corners very flat. Haven't had a chance to autocross it yet but for spirited street driving it's a ball.

The other issue you may find without the 2" drop spindle, you run the risk of over cycling the coilover. I do not have any drop in my spindles, but I had to go with a SPC lower control arm that drops the coilover pickup 1.5". I had to do this because of how low my car is so I do not over cycle the coilover.

[1badchevelle]

go coil overs front and rear.

[1badchevelle]

The car rides great, even with 40 series frt and 35 series rr tires, [/QUOTE]

RR = rear tires.

[1nkred1ble]

thanks guys for the feed back, so Front & Rear coilovers & 2 inch drop spindles and that should make me a happy customer correct?

[406 Q-ship]

I have to chime in here. When doing any kind of coil over or even a "shockwave" style shock in the rear of an A-body, it will require a rethinking of the way the lower shock mount is attached to the rear axle housing. The shock stud design for the A-body was NOT designed or even considered to support the weight of the rear of the car. Back in the air shock days guys used to tear out the shock studs with the shocks up for tire clearance. The stock spring location is the best bet for the rear of an A-body. If your looking for ride height ajustability like a coil offers then look at the Stock Car products places for a weight jack for the rear of the A-body, the street stock cars have been using this suspension on and off for decades. Andrew's 70 GTO that won the Real Street uses a weight jacking style spring mount in the rear.

[BobB66SS]

I have to chime in here. When doing any kind of coil over or even a "shockwave" style shock in the rear of an A-body, it will require a rethinking of the way the lower shock mount is attached to the rear axle housing. The shock stud design for the A-body was NOT designed or even considered to support the weight of the rear of the car. Back in the air shock days guys used to tear out the shock studs with the shocks up for tire clearance. The stock spring location is the best bet for the rear of an A-body. If your looking for ride height ajustability like a coil offers then look at the Stock Car products places for a weight jack for the rear of the A-body, the street stock cars have been using this suspension on and off for decades. Andrew's 70 GTO that won the Real Street uses a weight jacking style spring mount in the rear.

Absolutely right and an excellent point. The DSE rr kit includes a substantial mounting bracket for the coilover that attaches to the lwr ctrl arm bracket on the axle housing. Make sure any system you use has done their engineering homework for that change in load.

[1nkred1ble]

I have to chime in here. When doing any kind of coil over or even a "shockwave" style shock in the rear of an A-body, it will require a rethinking of the way the lower shock mount is attached to the rear axle housing. The shock stud design for the A-body was NOT designed or even considered to support the weight of the rear of the car. Back in the air shock days guys used to tear out the shock studs with the shocks up for tire clearance. The stock spring location is the best bet for the rear of an A-body. If your looking for ride height ajustability like a coil offers then look at the Stock Car products places for a weight jack for the rear of the A-body, the street stock cars have been using this suspension on and off for decades. Andrew's 70 GTO that won the Real Street uses a weight jacking style spring mount in the rear.


thanks for that reply, but is there anyway you could translate that to a car newbie???? lol i tried fallowing what you where saying but you got wayyyyy tooooo technical for me, this is the first car ive ever tried to work on, so its kinda of hard to fallow you.
i really appreciate the help though if it wasent for you and the rest of the guys chiming in i would even more lost that i am now.

[1nkred1ble]

Absolutely right and an excellent point. The DSE rr kit includes a substantial mounting bracket for the coilover that attaches to the lwr ctrl arm bracket on the axle housing. Make sure any system you use has done their engineering homework for that change in load.


http://www.detroitspeed.com/productpages/indproduct/rearsuspensionprod/042404-rear-coilovr-kit.htm

this is the set youre talking about right?

[1nkred1ble]

& whats the biggest difference between single & double adjustable shocks?

[1badchevelle]

What that means you need to change out some parts to reinforce the mounting or you are f@c#ed. When you go coil over you remove the weight of the car from the rear axel(shocks and coils) to just the mount loc from two bolts of the coil overs.

[1badchevelle]

Also check this thread out it will give a similar coil over set up as it is adjustable.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/879985-1970-gto-version-2-0-a-3.html

[1nkred1ble]

Thanks!!!!
Now check your email!!!

[6'9"Witha69]

& whats the biggest difference between single & double adjustable shocks?
Single adjustable only allows control over compression while double allows control over compression and rebound.

[BobB66SS]

http://www.detroitspeed.com/productpages/indproduct/rearsuspensionprod/042404-rear-coilovr-kit.htm

this is the set youre talking about right?

That's it, except I have the full Speed Kit 3 as well.

http://www.detroitspeed.com/productpages/indproduct/rearsuspensionprod/041603-rear-spd-kts.htm

[BobB66SS]

I already said it once but its worth repeating. The new combo on your car took it from already incredible to absolutly perfect.

If I didn't say so before, thanks very much. They're never really done, but I think (hope!) I'm getting close.

[406 Q-ship]

thanks for that reply, but is there anyway you could translate that to a car newbie???? lol i tried fallowing what you where saying but you got wayyyyy tooooo technical for me, this is the first car ive ever tried to work on, so its kinda of hard to fallow you.
i really appreciate the help though if it wasent for you and the rest of the guys chiming in i would even more lost that i am now.

If you look at how the lower shock mount is just a 1/2 fine thread stud that goes through a piece of maybe 5/32 formed sheet metal, then it become obvious that it was never intended to hold any weight. When a coilover style shock is used it will be in tab on each side of the shock bushing mount, this puts the mounting bolt in double sheer. In some cases the bolt will be more than 1/2" diameter or of a higher grade than 8.

A great book to read for this kind of stuff is Prepare to Win, it is about how to mount pieces and hardware in the building and maintaining of a race car. The book gets a bit technical but most can make it through.....heck I did.

[1nkred1ble]

If you look at how the lower shock mount is just a 1/2 fine thread stud that goes through a piece of maybe 5/32 formed sheet metal, then it become obvious that it was never intended to hold any weight. When a coilover style shock is used it will be in tab on each side of the shock bushing mount, this puts the mounting bolt in double sheer. In some cases the bolt will be more than 1/2" diameter or of a higher grade than 8.

A great book to read for this kind of stuff is Prepare to Win, it is about how to mount pieces and hardware in the building and maintaining of a race car. The book gets a bit technical but most can make it through.....heck I did.


i see.......
soooooo what would be the answer to this???? i know that it was previously mentioned that the DSE rear coilover set has solved this issue with mounting brackets that you relocate else where. Do i need to worry about anything else after i go with the DSE package???? Thats what im leaning tores I have enough $$$ for the rear set up and should everything saved up for the fronta with in the next couple of weeks.

I was made aware that the front coilover kits from DSE do not bolt on directly onto the stock front LCA, does anybody know if they bolt on to other LCA from other companies, ie; global west, spc, cpp, so on and so forth????

is there much of a perfomance diffrence between the Qa1 front coilvers vs DSE???

thanks for the ton of feedback guys i really appreciated.

[1nkred1ble]

Thanks for your responses bob i really appreciated, can you tell me a little bit more on your front coilover setup, i know you have the Qa1's. If you dont mind me asking why dident you go with DSE all around? is it overkill? Are the qa1 fronts more then plenty then you can ask for??? what kind of LCA are you running? is there anything you would chage???? Are you running big brakes? what size are your wheels??

thanks alot for you time and patience

[1nkred1ble]

I have also been hearing alot about the SC&C Stage 2 package, how good are any of these stages for ride height adjust ability?

[BobB66SS]

Thanks for your responses bob i really appreciated, can you tell me a little bit more on your front coilover setup, i know you have the Qa1's. If you dont mind me asking why dident you go with DSE all around? is it overkill? Are the qa1 fronts more then plenty then you can ask for??? what kind of LCA are you running? is there anything you would chage???? Are you running big brakes? what size are your wheels??

thanks alot for you time and patience

When I went to a front coilover setup (2005 or so), DSE didn't yet have anything for A-bodies.

Changing to a front coilover is a much simpler process than changing the rear. As I recall the frt conversion is a simple matter of enlarging the holes in the stock LCA so that the slightly larger bolts for the coilover will fit. I didn't change the LCA on the car at the time, left the stock one. Works fine, may change it at some point just to match the other newer pieces.

I have no complaints about either brand, both work great. Whoever you go with, talk to them to make sure you get the right spring rate vs. what equipment you have on the car now (BB or SB, A/C or not, etc., etc.). All that stuff adds or subtracts weight. The original ones I got were too soft and dropped the car way too far so I had to go to a 450 lb. straight rate spring instead of a softer variable rate. Not difficult to change out but a definite PITA, not something you wanna have to do twice if you can help it. Also make drop spindles or not part of your conversation; I have 2" drops from Belltech that went on with the brakes and UCAs.

I have Baer 13" rotors and PBR calipers up front with 18x8" Bonspeed wheels. The rears are 12" Baers with 19x10s.

[1nkred1ble]

"Also make drop spindles or not part of your conversation; I have 2" drops from Belltech that went on with the brakes and UCAs."

Make sure drop spindles are a part? or are not a part of my conversation?????

I was thinking about going the the spindle route just so i would be able to fit those big brakes.

[1nkred1ble]

i tried looking up prices for that belltech spindle you bought, but i cant seem to find them on the site, how much are the spindles for a 70 chevelle?

[BobB66SS]

"Also make drop spindles or not part of your conversation; I have 2" drops from Belltech that went on with the brakes and UCAs."

Make sure drop spindles are a part? or are not a part of my conversation?????

I was thinking about going the the spindle route just so i would be able to fit those big brakes.

Just make sure you talk to the coilover vendor about drop spindles. Not saying you should or shouldn't use them, just don't assume it doesn't matter. Some factor a drop into the spring itself. So talk to them about it, see what they recommend. Each component you pick can/will have an effect on the others in the system.

I don't think you need drop spindles to fit larger brakes, all it does is move the centerline of the wheel mounting point up 2" vs. stock. Again, talk to the brake guys and suspension guys about what you're looking for, they'll be able to tell you the best way to go.

I got the spindles thru DSE when I got the Baer brakes, don't have p/n or price specs.

[JRouche]

I have to chime in here. When doing any kind of coil over or even a "shockwave" style shock in the rear of an A-body, it will require a rethinking of the way the lower shock mount is attached to the rear axle housing. The shock stud design for the A-body was NOT designed or even considered to support the weight of the rear of the car.

Very good info. A shock mount can not convert to a coilover or shockwave mount. Just was not meant to hold the weight of the car. Gotta build the mounts up a lil.

Here is a lil build-up of my shockwave mounts. Im on the front end now and will post some pics when done. Doing some similar stuff up front. JR

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55420

[1nkred1ble]

Very good info. A shock mount can not convert to a coilover or shockwave mount. Just was not meant to hold the weight of the car. Gotta build the mounts up a lil.

Here is a lil build-up of my shockwave mounts. Im on the front end now and will post some pics when done. Doing some similar stuff up front. JR

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55420


is this true for both front and rear mounts or just rear???

[1nkred1ble]

Just make sure you talk to the coilover vendor about drop spindles. Not saying you should or shouldn't use them, just don't assume it doesn't matter. Some factor a drop into the spring itself. So talk to them about it, see what they recommend. Each component you pick can/will have an effect on the others in the system.

I don't think you need drop spindles to fit larger brakes, all it does is move the centerline of the wheel mounting point up 2" vs. stock. Again, talk to the brake guys and suspension guys about what you're looking for, they'll be able to tell you the best way to go.

I got the spindles thru DSE when I got the Baer brakes, don't have p/n or price specs.

If i dont go with the spindle route then how would i be able to throw the big brake system on there??
Is this when a "hub" comes into play???

sorry guys i know its frustrating to hear all these dumb questions

[BobB66SS]

If i dont go with the spindle route then how would i be able to throw the big brake system on there??
Is this when a "hub" comes into play???

No sweat, we've all been there. It sounds like either you're misinterpreting the definition of drop spindle or I missed something about what's on the car now. Let's back up. The part that bolts between the UCA and LCA and that the brakes mount to is the knuckle. The shaft that the bearings and wheel mounting hub slide onto is the spindle. Where that shaft is located on the knuckle is what defines whether it's a stock spindle or a drop spindle. A "2 inch drop spindle" is a knuckle that has the spindle located 2 inches higher than normal; by raising the centerline of the wheel 2", you effectively drop the rest of the car that same distance. Thus the term "drop spindle". Either style will accept a big brake package. Again, talk to the brake supplier of your choice; chances are they'll have both a stock height spindle and drop spindle as options.

If you decide to buy the spindle from a different source than the brakes, you will have to make sure the brakes will fit that spindle. That's why it's easier to get them all from one vendor.

You'll go thru the same thing again when you buy wheels and tires. That/those vendors will need to know your brake and suspension package to make sure the get the size and backspace right to clear the caliper, rotors, sway bar, etc. All of the good ones will know what questions they'll need answers to.

[MrQuick]

If i dont go with the spindle route then how would i be able to throw the big brake system on there??
Is this when a "hub" comes into play???

sorry guys i know its frustrating to hear all these dumb questions

I'd go with the ATS spindle option and sell the Bell's. Bolt on C5-C6 compatible brakes.

Don't even worry about it. All these guys are more than willing to help as long as you can keep up. :fingersx:


vince

[1nkred1ble]

No sweat, we've all been there. It sounds like either you're misinterpreting the definition of drop spindle or I missed something about what's on the car now. Let's back up. The part that bolts between the UCA and LCA and that the brakes mount to is the knuckle. The shaft that the bearings and wheel mounting hub slide onto is the spindle. Where that shaft is located on the knuckle is what defines whether it's a stock spindle or a drop spindle. A "2 inch drop spindle" is a knuckle that has the spindle located 2 inches higher than normal; by raising the centerline of the wheel 2", you effectively drop the rest of the car that same distance. Thus the term "drop spindle". Either style will accept a big brake package. Again, talk to the brake supplier of your choice; chances are they'll have both a stock height spindle and drop spindle as options.

If you decide to buy the spindle from a different source than the brakes, you will have to make sure the brakes will fit that spindle. That's why it's easier to get them all from one vendor.

You'll go thru the same thing again when you buy wheels and tires. That/those vendors will need to know your brake and suspension package to make sure the get the size and backspace right to clear the caliper, rotors, sway bar, etc. All of the good ones will know what questions they'll need answers to.

Thank you, you just did a woorrllldddddddd of clearing things up for me. I guess I was a little bit confused by youre previous post, when you mentioned your coilover drop spindle setup. I thought you said that you WOULD NOT go with 2 inch drop spindles when using coilovers becuase it would mess up the geometry of your ride.

But now i understand that it is possible to use the drop sinples aslong as i get my spring rate where it needs to be from the manufacturer ( DSE)

Secondly, I currently have the stock 307 SBC in the car that im trying to get started, if im able to accomplish this i dont have to worry about dumping all sort of money in the 454 (that im planning on stroking out to a 496) i have in the garage that needs to be worked up. i.e Instead of spending 2 3 grand on the bb right now i can spend it on the suspension like i am planning to.
My question is with the coilover setup + the 2 inch drop spindle's would it give me enough defecit ( want a real low front end) to order bbc chevy springs on the coilovers because eventually i do plan on going with the bigger motor?
this is the stance i am shooting for.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/nicechevelllllleee-1.jpg

[Roadbuster]

I have a stance similar to that:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/08153NK30626-1.jpg

My front crossmember is 3 inches from the ground (between the front tires)

There are several issues with running like this on an A-body.

The driveline angles are one issue that needs to be addressed. You will have to raise the back of the transmission and change the length of the upper rear control arms. If you don't you will have vibrations at highway speeds. This can mean major surgery to the main tunnel to get the clearance. I have adjustable arms which help but I still need to raise the trans. See this thread (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213271) and this one (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270108).

Another is header clearance. Long tubes will more than likely be too low. Shorties will clear or certain brands of long tubes (Doug's for a Pontiac give more clearance) will clear as well. Mine hang down far lower than I would like. Working one issue at a time.

Last is that by lowering the car you raise the rear roll center. This is the opposite of what needs to be done. This is a product of the factory suspension. To correct this you need to change the rear suspension mount points or add a watts link or panhard rod. Still doing my homework here.

Jon

[1nkred1ble]

I have a stance similar to that:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/08153NK30626-1.jpg

My front crossmember is 3 inches from the ground (between the front tires)

There are several issues with running like this on an A-body.

The driveline angles are one issue that needs to be addressed. You will have to raise the back of the transmission and change the length of the upper rear control arms. If you don't you will have vibrations at highway speeds. This can mean major surgery to the main tunnel to get the clearance. I have adjustable arms which help but I still need to raise the trans. See this thread (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213271) and this one (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270108).

Another is header clearance. Long tubes will more than likely be too low. Shorties will clear or certain brands of long tubes (Doug's for a Pontiac give more clearance) will clear as well. Mine hang down far lower than I would like. Working one issue at a time.

Last is that by lowering the car you raise the rear roll center. This is the opposite of what needs to be done. This is a product of the factory suspension. To correct this you need to change the rear suspension mount points or add a watts link or panhard rod. Still doing my homework here.

Jon


This is the most discouraging bit of information ive received so far. I can barely tie my shoes, how the heck am i supposed to do all that????? I wish i had a 1/8 of your skill & talent. Thanks for your feedback though, now im off to bakers to get a "suspension parts & lingo to english" dictionary.

[C5 Longroof]

Wow....
After reading this thread front to back, I am just amazed at how cool the people on this forum are...

It is just so damn cool of you guys, especially the more experienced suspension guys, to chime in and take the time to break it all down so that it makes sense to a newer builder...I mean, you guys could just throw out some badd ass multi-worded brake lingo and expect a newbie to follow along, and lose patience and flame him when he asks for clarification or a more "basic laymans" answer...

But you guys don't...You reword it without treating him like a third grader, and that is just soooooooo DAMN COOL...Judging by the specific details in some of your answers, there are a few of you guys who really really know their shiznit and quite honestly might have better things to be doing...But here you are, in a newbies thread, taking the time to make sure this guy ends up with a correct understanding of how the suspension actually works and what to do to get his desired results, instead of him walking away with a spinning, blurry head and some parts list of "you gotta buy these items"...

If it don't get said by anybody else, "Thanks for the great, USABLE information"...

Rick

[BobB66SS]

I thought you said that you WOULD NOT go with 2 inch drop spindles when using coilovers becuase it would mess up the geometry of your ride.

My question is with the coilover setup + the 2 inch drop spindle's would it give me enough defecit ( want a real low front end) to order bbc chevy springs on the coilovers because eventually i do plan on going with the bigger motor?
this is the stance i am shooting for.


Sounds like we got our wires crossed. What I intended to say is that if you have to choose between dropped spindles and shorter springs, the best way to drop the front end is to include dropped spindles. That retains more of the proper suspension geometry, will make the car much easier to align, and give it better road manners. You can drop the nose by cutting coils off your stock springs (something I would NOT suggest you do) or by using springs that are produced with fewer coils; while this is less expensive to do, like most things you get what you pay for. That way makes the car much tougher to get into proper alignment, with camber or caster settings that give the car poor handling characteristics.

That said, if you have a budget that doesn't allow for coilovers and you're more interested in stand-still stance than road manners, you can still go with shorter springs, you just have to understand the tradeoffs. Like everything else in this hobby, it's a matter of personal choice vs. the $$$ we have available.

In my case I'd said I went with drop spindles a few years ago at the same time I added the Baer brakes. When I added the coilovers a couple years later, the combo of softer coilover springs + 2" drop spindles REALLY dropped the nose of the car. I said in retrospect I may have been able to get away without the drop spindles given how far up I had to adjust the coilovers if I had to choose one over the other. My intent there was to say that you had options to get the stance you wanted, again depending on what matters to you and what $$ you had. Everything costs money, so if it's stance only that you're after, there's a number of ways to get there as noted above. If you want the best shot at good handling, I'd use drop spindles as part of your plan.

I can't say if you can get that low of a stance with a SB motor and BB springs; the coilover vendors are better prepared to answer that one.

As Roadbuster mentioned, try to keep all of your systems in mind when you drop a car that far. You can't get tunnel vision on one system; they all have an effect on other stuff. I like the stance of my car and knew header clearance was going to be an issue. My Hooker header collectors are less than 3" off the ground, and that's after I removed the flanges and used stainless band clamps to make the connection to the rest of the exhaust. That's too low for where/how I drive it. I may have to go to shorty headers at some point, but that also robs power output. And to change headers on my car, the motor has to come back out. Like I said, a change you make one place can have big effects other places.

There will always be some sort of compromise when picking systems out: lower ride height looks cooler and can handle better but can have ground clearance issues; shorter tire aspect ratio (sidewall height) helps handling but can rattle your fillings loose. There's no perfect list of components, they call come with a tradeoff somewhere.

Take your time, decide what matters to you most about the car for the $$ you have to spend, talk to as many people/vendors as you can, and in the end you'll come out fine.

[HWYSTR]

I went through this whole delima myself several years ago, mainly with deciding which route to go on my A-body's suspension. Couple things I want to point out.

First, it's very easy to get carried away, and lose sight of the final config. So, decide once, and see it through.

My 'opinion' on coil overs. It was once explained to me that a coil spring is like a big lever, and the larger the diameter spring, the more linear the rate of the spring. Due to the curb weight of these cars, it only is amplified, not like in a 2500 or so pound race car, in which coil overs work best. There's a ratio in which weight and diameter coil spring is optimum, if you can imagine. So, it is thought by many that the traditional coil spring that came on these cars will track much better than a coil over. My suggestion would be to stick with the traditional coil spring. Global West has many years experience in testing spring rates, and I believe they can advise a 'consumer hobbist' very well, not to mention a max-effort corner burner.

Control arms, front, after much looking around, from dealing with ATS, and the fact that Global West designed the control arms around the ATS spindles, AND since ATS developed their' spindles for improved suspension geometry, I believe the Global West upper and lower control arms with ATS spindles is about as good as it gets, within a reasonable cost. This as all know allows the use of C5/6 brakes, another bonus.

Rear control arms, since the front GWs were selected, makes the rear selection easy in my opinion, GW again, and the spherical bushings/del-a-lum setup is second to none when it comes to articulation.

Lowering. The front driveline angles won't change when you lower the front, only the back will, and that can be corrected easily with the adjustable uppers. If the Instant Center or Roll Center is a concern, you could add the Metco Instance Center Mod brackets or similar. (I believe GW has addressed the RC issue, call them). If you really need to, you could lift the rear of the trans to improve driveline angles, and the amount you can would be dependant on the trans and body bushings used. As a reference, on my A-body, TH-400, 12-bolt, lowered with the GW and ATS 'stuff', I have no driveline vibration at any speed, even above 150mph (high driveshaft RPMs).

Roadbuster - Sweet ride! LOVE IT!! As for the Doug's being tighter to the body, yes they are, but I have still ground the heck out of mine on the daily driver! I cringe every time too! (Guess going air-borne will do that!). On the McLeod bellhousing, on the 'bird, I trimmed the entire lower lip off to avoid any 'contact', which by the way destroys the bellhousing to block alingment. To a point that you have to replace it. Check over on PY and see how I trimmed it, even cut off the extra starter bulge. And yes, it will still protect you in the event of a clutch/flywheel/etc failure. No, it won't pass SFI, or a strict drag track tech. What's your engine specs on that?

-Mike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Od_KQq1ms

.

[1nkred1ble]

Wow....
After reading this thread front to back, I am just amazed at how cool the people on this forum are...

It is just so damn cool of you guys, especially the more experienced suspension guys, to chime in and take the time to break it all down so that it makes sense to a newer builder...I mean, you guys could just throw out some badd ass multi-worded brake lingo and expect a newbie to follow along, and lose patience and flame him when he asks for clarification or a more "basic laymans" answer...

But you guys don't...You reword it without treating him like a third grader, and that is just soooooooo DAMN COOL...Judging by the specific details in some of your answers, there are a few of you guys who really really know their shiznit and quite honestly might have better things to be doing...But here you are, in a newbies thread, taking the time to make sure this guy ends up with a correct understanding of how the suspension actually works and what to do to get his desired results, instead of him walking away with a spinning, blurry head and some parts list of "you gotta buy these items"...

If it don't get said by anybody else, "Thanks for the great, USABLE information"...

Rick

SERIOUSLY GUYS THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR PATIENCE`& WILLINGNESS TO SHARE YOUR WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE !!!!!

hwystr i coudent say it better myself. Perfectly noted my friend.

[1nkred1ble]

Thanks guys once again seriously I never would've even thought about half of the things that you guys mentioned.

Gathering from you guys have said, i have come up with wish list i that i want to run by you guys

DSE front Coilovers (i know you suggested otherwise but i like the fact that adjustability is a option)

Dse Rear Coilovers

Global West Rear Tubular upper and lower Control Arms

& Ats 2 inch drop spindles.

I got lost with all the bracket and mount talk, but whichever you guys suggest i will end getting.

[6'9"Witha69]

Couple things.
The ATS spindles are 7/8" drop, not 2".
You mention GW UCAs and LCAs, what about the adjustable uppers for the rear?

[BobB66SS]

Dse Rear Coilovers

Global West Rear Tubular upper and lower Control Arms


When in mocked up my DSE rr coilover kit I still had the older style Hotchkis boxed lower arms on the car. I found out that that style/size of arm interfered with the bracket DSE provides for the lower coilover mount. Make sure you check the GW arms to see if they're like the DSE ones I eventually installed; that style eliminates the interference. I'm not familiar with the GW stuff, chances are if they're tubular you should be OK. DSE will be able to tel you for sure.

[1nkred1ble]

Couple things.
The ATS spindles are 7/8" drop, not 2".
You mention GW UCAs and LCAs, what about the adjustable uppers for the rear?


sorry i meant rear uca & lca's from global west

[6'9"Witha69]

sorry i meant rear uca & lca's from global west
OK, then what about front LCAs? This is one of the areas where you need a coliover specific part otherwise you place a huge load on a part never meant for it.

[Roadbuster]

This is the most discouraging bit of information ive received so far. I can barely tie my shoes, how the heck am i supposed to do all that????? I wish i had a 1/8 of your skill & talent. Thanks for your feedback though, now im off to bakers to get a "suspension parts & lingo to english" dictionary.

Thanks for the compliments! Asking questions is a great start to learn to do this! That is where I started!

I took my time and did this in my garage with a lot of help from this site and Mark at SC&C (http://www.scandc.com) who I bought the parts from. I don't have a lift or a giant toolbox filled with tools. Almost everything bolted in. I made some small clearance cuts for the SPC upper arms, otherwise my frame is factory stock.

Be prepared to fix the little things that come up. For example: The vibration issue I am working on I am going to try a small spacer under the trans mount. Just some 1/2" aluminum and longer bolts. That I hope will fix the problem until I get the new manual trans, then I have to cut the tunnel to make it fit.

PM me if you need a specific definition of any suspension terms I am happy to help someone learn.

Jon

[ponchopwr70]

I recommend going with sc+c. No one can believe how my car handles. I don't have the best of the best either. I have a boxed chassis, factory welds redone, eldelbrock rear arms with adj. uppers, eibach springs, sc+c stage 2-plus, 1-1/4 front bar, 7/8 rear and eldelbrock shocks. Roadbuster is right on the problems of lowering. My problem is compounded by have a gearvendors on the driveline angle. Its something I deal with and isn't terrible its just not a caddy. I have a sb chevy with dougs headers and they tuck nice and an oval exhaust for more clearance. Heres a pic of my stance my suspension has setteled a little more since but not much.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/Lemans067-1.jpg

[1nkred1ble]

Thanks for the compliments! Asking questions is a great start to learn to do this! That is where I started!

I took my time and did this in my garage with a lot of help from this site and Mark at SC&C (http://www.scandc.com) who I bought the parts from. I don't have a lift or a giant toolbox filled with tools. Almost everything bolted in. I made some small clearance cuts for the SPC upper arms, otherwise my frame is factory stock.

Be prepared to fix the little things that come up. For example: The vibration issue I am working on I am going to try a small spacer under the trans mount. Just some 1/2" aluminum and longer bolts. That I hope will fix the problem until I get the new manual trans, then I have to cut the tunnel to make it fit.

PM me if you need a specific definition of any suspension terms I am happy to help someone learn.

Jon

So After Some More Researching More Reading and MORE SAVING $$$$

Im ready to make to make my first purchase. Im looking to get the coilovers out the way first since they are the heart of my suspension set up, and im looking to work the system around them.

this is the order in which i plan on gathering everything up.

1. DSE front and rear coilovers.
2. Sc&c street comp stage 2 + Afx spindle
3. Spc LCA
4. Spc Adjustable UCA
5. c6 z06 front & rear brakes & calipers
6. Hotchkis/Metco/cpp rear & upper adjustable control arms??????????????

Does anybody know if their is a dse dealer in somewhere in so cal? around the los angeles orange county area?

Did I Get Everything? Am I missing something? maybe some swaybars ?

[MIGOAT]

Sway bars are the best bang for the buck on these rides, it helps with the roll..

[1nkred1ble]

thanks for all the great info guys after speaking w/ darren at ride tech seems like i can afford to go with their stage 1 package.

http://www.ridetech.com/products/64_...-1582-941.html

have some pics of sum more goodies
my metco rear upper & lower adjustable control arms, boy are these things purdddyyyy in person!!!!!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/07/S7300720-1.jpghttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/07/S7300719-1.jpghttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/07/S7300718-1.jpghttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/07/S7300717-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/yum-1.jpg