Budget Wheel Tubs or DSE Deep Tubs?

[70LS6TransAM]

Okay, I'm finally starting to get set to work on the TA again. Since I'm taking out a lot of sheet metal from the back (tail light panel, lower valace, most of the trunk pan), I've decided since I have decent access to the wheel tubs that I want to make them deep enough to fit fat 335's.

Until I can sell a few more houses, I'm currently on a Poor Man's budget for this build. So my question is, how much, if any, width would I be giving away by splitting and widening the stock wheel tubs v.s. laying down $400+ for a pair of DSE inner tubs?

Is the work more involved splitting the stock tubs and welding in a filler strip worth doing or am I seeing $400 fly away for the DSE tubs?

Will splitting the stock tubs (with frame notch) allow 335's to fit?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/42408007-1.jpg

[MrQuick]

Yes, 335's will fit easily with a strip and slight frame notch.
Just take a close look at the stock set up and cut away. Mock up and then trim as needed.

[70LS6TransAM]

Wow, thanks for the quick response! I see I'm not the only one staying up late at night when I should be sleeping...

I'll give it a go and photo doc it as I go. I've seen threads on the net suggest 18 gauge sheet metal for the strips; does that sound about right?

[JamesJ]

The good news is if you run into trouble we are always here.....

[MrQuick]

Wow, thanks for the quick response! I see I'm not the only one staying up late at night when I should be sleeping...

I'll give it a go and photo doc it as I go. I've seen threads on the net suggest 18 gauge sheet metal for the strips; does that sound about right?
I like to run 20g cause its easier to work with but 18g is just fine.

Cut a 4-5" strip, line it up with the outer side of your cut out wheel well then trace and trim the extra. Do the same with the inner section after you line it up. After all is said and done you should end up with a 2 3/4" strip.

[MZ 500]

I know of a guy that did it on a Torino but I can't find the pics right now but the nice thing about using the stock tubs is it will look factory if you clean up the welds nice. No one makes tubs for a Torino so I will have to do the same thing for mine. It should cost you less than $20 if you don't count your time LOL.

[jy211]

the guys over on the tri five board just cut the factory one's and add in some metal. :machine:

[70LS6TransAM]

Thanks so much for the advice and for the offerings of help, I'm sure I'll be asking A LOT of questions as I go along. This will be my first attempt at splitting tubs (and for welding, for that matter...) and I sure don't want to screw it up.

That $400 that would've gone toward the DSE tubs will now be going toward a Hobart Handler 125 MIG welder set up I found on NorthernTool.com; I figure that's a better investment for the money.

Since I've never welded before, I'm going to try to craft my welding "skills" on the tubs and hopefully have decent welds by the time I get to the sheet metal replacement. I might go with the 20g strips for the tubs since 2g isn't that much difference. Any preference between butt welding the strips or flanging them?

First up is getting 39 years of undercoating and crud off the insides of the wells - what's the most efficient way to get that stuff off - grinding or some type of chemical stripper?

[jy211]

pressure wash, sand blast, heat gun and scraper

[70LS6TransAM]

Okay, thanks. It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it...

[70LS6TransAM]

the guys over on the tri five board just cut the factory one's and add in some metal. :machine:

JY, do you have a link to the thread on the tri five board?

[Satatic]

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v334/satatic/68camaro/mini-tubs/
Here are pictures of my mini-tubs which were split stock ones. I moved in about 3"x3" sections when making these. I used pop can boxes to make each template then used my cheapo throatless shear to cut out all the pieces. I suggest buying one. The less sparks the better, i get tired of having hot sparks hitting me and getting in my ears and eyes and the bad taste they make.

[70LS6TransAM]

Thanks for the post and for the link to the photos; you did a nice job on the tubs. How many hours do you figure it took you to do from start to finish?

[Satatic]

I spent a full day for making one tub. I rarely work that long so that is the only reason i can say it took me a good 8 hours. I coudlnt tell you how long it took to notch the frame and other misc cutting and welding.

[70LS6TransAM]

That's cool. I know it will take me as long as it takes me. I've seen some timeframes for doing the DSE tubs, notch etc. of 40-50 hours.

Good news: (news:s) I've tracked down a new Goodmark full trunk pan from a guy who's local, he's only asking $50 for it. I'm going to go take a look at it tomorrow. That will go a long way to help with splitting the tubs and getting a new trunk pan into the TA since it all ties in together.

A friend of mine (and my wife concurs with him) suggested I swap bodies and TA VIN with a '73 Formula shell that I got for replacing the tail light section, lower valance and assorted patches in order to save me time. He said the frame on the TA might be rusted as well. But I don't know if I can bring myself to do a rebody. From what I've found so far, the rear frame rails are in great shape and it looks like the majority of rust is on the sheet metal...

Here's a picture of the shell. It's in decent shape, although the left 1/4 has been replaced and needs finishing.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/22108009-1.jpg



BTW, what's the best way (other than media blasting) to remove the paint from the 1/4's on the TA so I can tell how bad/good they are? I'm thinking I should start working on splitting the tubs on the left side; the 1/4 and wheel well looks like it's in far worse shape than the right. No sense starting on the right tub only to find out I'm SOL on the left.

[John510]

Id say DSE. Just seems way easier to install then the other way plus it would take a lot less time wouldnt it?

[opnwide]

70ls6,
Your car looked like my car! What a piece!

I widened my tubs 2" and did NOT cut the frame rails. You'll have to get creative if you want to keep the rear seat belts. Take your time, if you've got the time, and enjoy the process. I'm proud of my tubs, and love to show them off.

[Rhino]

I, as well, did a more budget minded approach to the mini-tub, although I believe I did mine a little differently than most others. I've been meaning to write it up and post it online, although haven't found the time yet. Essentially, I scribed a line 1/2" from the flange surface of a new wheel house, then cut along that line. I then transferred that curve to a piece of thick poster board. Afterward I extended that line out 2 3/4" and cut out a template for my filler strip. Once I knew it would work as expected, I cut the filler strip from steel, bent it to fit the contour, and welded it all up. The nice thing about this is that the majority of the welding and clean up actually happens outside the car, on the comfort of your bench. If you do go this route insure you take very precise measurements.
From that point installation is exactly as described in this (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46900) thread.

These pics are of my mockup process. unfortunately I can't find my finished pics, although they're now fully welded and installed. Once it's painted/undercoated you'd never be able to tell they were ever cut apart.
It makes for a longer process, but well worth the $300 I saved. I would imagine I have an additional 10 to 12 hours on top of the standard mini tub. That puts me at around 30 hours total. The DSE pieces are great if you're wanting to get it done quickly.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/IMG_1243resized-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/IMG_1245resized-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/IMG_1239resized-1.jpg

[10Seconds]

I too did mine this way, cut and weld in a strip. DSE did not even offer a kit back when I did it.

I think there are still some pictures of it up over at TAC still, but it looks like the guys here have you taken care of. Best of luck with it.

[70LS6TransAM]

John - While I'm sure the DSE tubs make for a quicker/simpler installation (I have their install dvd), I'm sure a lot of us can think of other uses for $429; especially if we can do this ourselves. But in the end, it all comes down to budget, skills and preference.

Opnwide - Wow! And I thought I was the only one who's car was that bad! You actually put that back together??? There's hope for me and the TA after all...what size tires are you running without the frame notch?

I've certainly got the time and I will enjoy the process. I'm really not concerned about the rear seat belts at this point; I'm thinking about not putting in back seats out anyway - the ones that came with the car were diamond tucked and are now in the landfill.

Did you have to relocate the upper shock mounts?

Rhino - Thanks for the great pics and info, your tubs came out really clean.

10Sec - Thanks for your input, I've seen your thread on TAC and enjoyed reading it. Always good to hear from you!

Okay, this goes out to anyone/everyone. I started taking down the left 1/4 to metal. In addition to rot in both the front and rear of the wheel well (and about 10 lbs. of Bondo), there's also some rot around outer and inner wheel well lips, but only about an inch or so in; the rest of the inner wheel well is in nice shape.

What would be the best way to approach splitting the tub and replacing the damaged areas?

I'll post pics later today after I get home from work.

[Rhino]

Okay, this goes out to anyone/everyone. I started taking down the left 1/4 to metal. In addition to rot in both the front and rear of the wheel well (and about 10 lbs. of Bondo), there's also some rot around outer and inner wheel well lips, but only about an inch or so in; the rest of the inner wheel well is in nice shape.

What would be the best way to approach splitting the tub and replacing the damaged areas?

I'll post pics later today after I get home from work.

I looked into using my stock inners, since they were rust free, but decided it would be way quicker to start with new pieces. If you have rust to repair on top of everything else, it would only slow the process even more. Unless you have a shrinker/stretcher that flange is going to be difficult and time consuming to recreate. I think I paid a total of $90 for both of my wheel tubs, shipped right to my door. I realize it's not as cheap as using the stock tubs, but that was one concession I was willing to make to save a decent amount of time. Being able to weld it all up outside the car was also a huge benefit.

[70LS6TransAM]

That's cool, I'll take the advice of one who's been there/done that and get the new inners. Where did you get the inners? $90 delivered for both is a really good deal. Classic Industries in Huntington Beach isn't too far from me so I'll check with them.

I'm hoping I don't have to take off the entire 1/4, hopefully I'll just need to do some patching. The upper 1/4 appears to be in decent shape. I'm still working on getting it down to metal so I can see what I'm dealing with.

I also need to get about 1/8" of Bondo off that they basically ran over the entire 1/4 as they molded in the wheel flairs to the front & back of the wheel wells; I'm finding they put the spoilers on to cover up the rust damage, rather than repairing the metal. Lovely. Cheap and easy baby, and no one will ever know...:machine:

I didn't get a chance to post pics last night; ended up working in the yard for 3 hours after work. Hopefully I'll be able to post them tonight.

[opnwide]

70ls6,

[opnwide]

70LS6,

I'm currently running MT SRs, 12"X26" on factory honeycombs (widened 2" on inside so it looks stock to the casual observer). Lots of room left.
I did have to relocate shock mounts. I bought one from Jeg's for about $35.
Raceway auto had the lower spring/shock mounts and adjustable perches. They've got all kinds of circle track stuff that'll save you money over DSE.

I also cut my own spring pockets to move my springs over 1 1/2" or so (just enough to match the tubs). I didn't see the need to notch the frame if going with leaf springs, but if you were to go with 4link, you could probably get another inch out of it.
You can see that I did a little masaging of the front part of the rear frame rail. I also added a little tab to my spring perch and redrilled a couple of holes. Not so tuff, if you have a rotisserie.

[70LS6TransAM]

Hey Greg, thanks for the info and for letting me know about getting the parts from Jeg's and Raceway. DSE has nice stuff if your budget allows for it. But again, this is a low-budget/no-budget pro-touring project, one for the massess...

After reading some of the threads on suspension, I learned that the 2nd gen 'birds have a pretty decent set up from the factory, so I've decided to stay with the leafs and will probably go with leafs from Global West.

I know I'll have a lot of questions when it comes time to relocate stuff, so hopefully you'll be around when the time comes.

Here are some photos of the 1/4. My main concern is if I need to take off the quarter, how is the TA going to hold up structurally as I work on replacing/widening the inner tubs?

This is the right 1/4, to give you an idea of how they molded the wheel spats in front and behind the wheel well:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Here's the left 1/4 after taking off the spats and about 10 lbs. of mud:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifhttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifhttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[70LS6TransAM]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifhttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifhttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

This photo gives you a better idea of the "skim" coat of mud on the 1/4. This is where the side of the rear spoiler was molded on. I actually think the skim coat ended up protecting most of the panels on both sides from further rust damage:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Rhino]

Randy,
I ordered from a sponsor on another forum who deals specifically in first gen parts. I'll check and see if he's done any 2nd gen stuff.
The panels I ended up using are Golden Legion. If you can find a Golden Legion dealer, the panels are relatively cheap, and decent quality.

[70LS6TransAM]

Thanks for checking with the sponsor for me Rhino. I haven't heard of Golden Legion before; I'll check it out and see what I can dig up on them as well.

[70LS6TransAM]

So far I've searched Classic, NPD, Goodmark and Year One. Each one carries the outer wheelhouses but not the inners???

$90 for the set of inners and outers for the 1st gen birds seems to be the going rate. The outer itself for 2nd gen's is about $100.

Unless anyone knows where to get the inner wheelhouse, it looks like I'm going to have to split the tubs and only replace the outer. Although, if I go with a full 1/4 replacement, Goodmark states the the outer comes with it. They also state the replacing the full 1/4 is easier than replacing the 80% 1/4...

[opnwide]

You know... I'm looking at that 73 shell and I'm thinking you should go with that. The dash VIN is easy enough (just some pop rivet that I think you can buy on ebay). but work on your body working skills before you tackle the VIN near the heater box opening. I never found any VINs on the frame, although there is supposed to be one there, too.

When you split the wheel wells, you don't actually split them at the seam if you're doing it el cheapo. Of course you know that, you go about an inch or so inward. From here on lets say we "cut" the wheel wells instead and we'll leave the "splitting" to the DSE guys who already have an extra wide inner wheelwell.

[70LS6TransAM]

You know, everytime I think about going with the '73 shell, a huge weight gets lifted off my head. I've gone back and forth on using the shell since I got it. It would save me SO much time and work - literally years I think. The '73 has just a couple of small issues compared to the TA.

I'm going to bring the '73 into the garage and put the TA out to pasture in my side yard. Hopefully by the time I'm finished with the tubs I'll have enough of a grasp of MIG welding to pull off the VIN by the heater box. If not, I can always smooth out the firewall, right?

It will probably be a short while until I post an update, trying to fix up the house and work on the car at the same time is tough. Gotta have that balance though or the car's never going to get done. But sleep's overrated...

Thanks for the input - I owe you one :cheers: