Am I getting ripped off?

[blissbsm]

Im just curious if i am paying too much or if its in line with what everyone else is paying? I have a 67 firebird convertible that a high school friend of mine is working on for me. I have supplied all of the parts, he is just charging me labor. I gave him a deposit of 5k when the car was dropped off. We are replacing every body panel on this car! When i dropped the car off to him I was told the 5k should get me to the front clip, meaning floors,rockers,mini tubs,quarters and rear tail panel and trunk lid.
So far the rockers,mini tubs and quarters are installed and the rear tail panel is clamped on.
I was informed a few weeks ago that he is out of money and i need to come up with more cash for him to resume. I was also told that it would take another 20k -30k to finish.
Is this in line with what everyone else is charging? Mind you this shop is in upstate ny and this is by far his biggest build ever!

[Restomod]

Did you get that $5k quote on paper???

[blissbsm]

No he's a friend from school, plus im a hand shake kind of guy

[dhutton]

Sounds high but you don't say if it's ready for paint when he is finished or if he is just installing the panels. If it's just installing the panels that sounds high to me. Check out Mike's Custom Cars or Muscle Car Metal for comparisons. Both have websites.

[MuscleRodz]

$5K for what is done is not far out fo line dpending on how much per hour he is charging. The 20-30 number could be way out line depending on how far he thinks it will go.

[blissbsm]

I think he might be in over his head. Im thinking about pulling the car out of his shop and sending it to someone that does more of these builds.

[jy211]

Pull it now. Then find someone who knows what they are doing.

[BRIAN]

Everybody sees the cheap rust buckets and think they are cheaper to fix rather than start with a rust free car. Metal work is expensive if done right. If your car is set up on a dedicated bench and getting a real spot welded as per factory spec job $25 is not out of the question depending on how much paint work is being done. 2 tone? Undercarriage? Engine compartment? If you are using aftermarket panels it gets real expensive.

Again everyone see the cheap cost of aftermarket panels but they cost 2x as much to get on the car correctly.

If it is not a restoration shop pull the car. Production body shops make 10x the cash out of the spot that your car is taking up and just don't like resto jobs for that reason. Then there is the do overs and the never satisfied customer on a high dollar car.

Many good shops on this site. Take the initial loss and get the car done correctly the 1st time. You can have a $100k in parts and have a **** bucket in the end if the paint and metal isn't right. The worst thing you can do is have a car done by a friend. It just creates problem as he will always feel shorted on the cash end and you will have hard time discussing problems that occur.

GOOD LUCK

[MuscleRodz]

I think he might be in over his head. Im thinking about pulling the car out of his shop and sending it to someone that does more of these builds.
If you are already thinking that, pull it now, instead of later. You will be better off in the long run.

[blissbsm]

Easier said than done...car is 350 miles away

[oestek]

That's alot of work for $5000.00 in labor. Most shops charge upwards of $75 / hour, and that would give you less than 70 hours of labor for $5k. It doesn't seem like you agreed on an hourly, more of a lump sum for the work, but it takes hundreds of hours to do a complete re-body... heck, Frank Serafine will tell you it takes a couple hundred hours to get a car ready for paint, after the panel replacement is complete! Unfortunately, I think the only ripoff here is if you were led to believe all that work could be completed for $5k in the beginning. That seems extremely unrealistic, even for someone giving you a killer deal on labor.

[blissbsm]

Kevin, so is 20 -30 k a reasonable price to complete the body work?

[Restomod]

Whats cheaper, a 350mi ride or your car??????????????

[blissbsm]

Thats not my point...Im just not sure if im getting ripped off or not...according to kevin im not.

[oestek]

I can't say for sure or not without seeing the car, the quality of work, level of finish desired, gaps & alignment, etc., etc. All I am suggesting is that if you took a rusty tub to a shop and asked them to replace all the panels you requested, I could see how one could ring up a $25k bill. Especially if it includes rust removal / media blasting, panel alignments, extra gap work, etc. I don't know your car or situation, this is just my 3rd party observation. Heck, I've seen places charge $3500 for quarter panel SKINS for crying out loud.

[oestek]

To further answer your question, again, it depends on the quality of paint job you want, but a $10k paint job (including materials) is no longer considered an expensive paint job... materials are brutal... 2" wide rolls of 3M green tape now list for over $12 / ROLL at parts stores... and that's without any margin added for the shop. A good paint job (stripping / prepping / spraying backsides of fenders & stuff) will go through dozens of those alone. Plus labor. It gets steep. I wish the media would lend more coverage to the "true" costs of these things, instead of pushing how to get them done cheap... quality work and materials don't come cheap.

[mikey]

Really need some specifics on the work that he's going to do for the extra $$$$. To answer your questin accurately. You can also check out this site they post the prices right up front. I know nothing about the shops quality of work though.http://www.camarohouse.com It was temporarily down a few minutes ago so I'm not sure if the link will work.

[vintageracer]

Are you getting ripped off?

YES!

You should NEVER give anyone any money up front to work on your car. Why would you give anyone any money up front to work on your car when they already have recourse if you do not pay? That recourse is called a Mechanics Lein and is at the front of the line in virtually any state in the US to get paid FIRST or they can sell your car for charges via a state outlined process.

If the vendor wants the work your car said vendor can provide to their customer (you) a weekly bill for the work they ACTUALLY DO! That way the vendor is never more than a week behind in pay and you are never more than a week behind in paying for work on your car.

Paying a deposit up front, especially to a "friend", is the ABSOLUTE BEST WAY to lose a friendship AND never get the work on your car completed!

That's my opinion and you did ask!

[HOTRODSHOP]

Bottom line,,Cheap jobs are not good , good jobs are not cheap,,

[Tony_SS]

No he's a friend from school, plus im a hand shake kind of guy

You might not be one anymore after this deal... Get it all on paper before you go any further or pull it now before things go really sour.

x2 on what Mike said.

FWIW the place that painted mine, gave me quote, everything on paper. I saved up and they still honored that quote 2 years later! They did not ask for a penny up front and I paid in full on completion.

[MonzaRacer]

Now for me possibly doing specific jobs I do require deposits on parts(asI have gotten burnt too many times) for which I give a reciept, deliver pics and details as they come in, then as work progresses I bill at regualr intervals.
I built a very large Sonny Leonard big block and the customer placed a request, I got estimates for parts/machinework, gave written estimates and timelines for parts and work being done.
AS things got done I billed for them, also the car this went in I was doing some chassis mods/suspension mods, which got billed as done.
I only asked for special order parts paid up front and will usually order as the stands there with me.
Pics of the car before, and after what he has done and intend to do would help us determine results/outcome.

[toxicz28]

Here's the key;

I gave him a deposit of 5k when the car was dropped off. We are replacing every body panel on this car! When i dropped the car off to him I was told the 5k should get me to the front clip, meaning floors,rockers,mini tubs,quarters and rear tail panel and trunk lid.
So far the rockers,mini tubs and quarters are installed and the rear tail panel is clamped on.

Talk to him, see what went wrong. Not sure what you're being charged, but at $50 per hr, that's 100 hours and that could get eaten up quick making repop panels fit right. Also, how far is he taking the project? Through paint and body assembly, fully assembled/ come with plates and drive it home? I've seen projects without panel replacement go well over $35k and that was just a painted assembled shell. IMHO, $25- 35k for fully painted, no, I don't think you're getting ripped off. If it's rolling afterwards, even better.

[joynerz]

I have had a goodly amount of bodywork done on my car so far. I'm now ready for the sealer and the basecoat/clearcoat. I have done a few cars myself in the past, not to the level I'm having done this time, but not being a bodyman by trade, and the fact that this is the last resto I will do, I really wanted this one done right. In the past I did my own work because I couldn't afford to pay for someone else so I accepted that my results would be a compromise and I settled for that. So far the bodyman has done a good job, works efficiently, and I pay him by the session. All this has reminded me that good bodywork takes time. Also, good bodywork is not cheap. He works on the car for a few hours and I pay for that session. If a customer were not right there he really wouldn't appreciate the time that goes into it. I think that sometimes people who have resto work done don't really realize the labor involved unless they are watching what is being done. If they go by the bodyshop on one day and see the car in primer, go by the next day and see the car still in primer, they have no idea what work was done since the day before. I have watched on a given day, seen the car go from primer in the morning to primer again at the end of the day and can appreciate where my money went. Of course, most people can't do a resto this way; can't go by the shop on a regular basis, and the only reason I can is because I'm now retired. I know that when a person gets resto work done he's really at the mercy of the bodyshop as to whether he's getting a fair deal. But, resto work really cannot be quoted at an exact turnkey price unless the bodyman "pads" the price to cover all unknowns. You just have to talk to a few references, get some comparative prices from others in the industry and see if the prices are generally in line. Then, choose the one based on best references and a price that is within a reasonable price range of the others. The best choice may not be the highest price or the lowest price. You just have to invest some time if you're going to have some assurance you're getting a fair deal.
I'm pleased with the work, and at this stage the bodyman has shown me, and in conversation has been able to assure me he has the skills to carry out the job 'til the end. Hopefully, this week he'll apply the sealer, and next week the base/clear goes on, with buffing to follow as necessary. At that point the bodyman will be through with his part and I can start car reassembly. We agreed in the beginning that the bodywork would be by the hour and the final paint would be a flat fee. Many do it this way because the bodyman doesn't know everything that he's going to run into in the repair, but has a pretty good idea of what it's going to take to do the final paint because he's done the preparation and knows what labor is involved in the final paint. All that we had an understanding of in the beginning. Just communicating with each other openly of what is expected in the end will leave no unanswered questions. If the guy is not willing to take a few minutes in the beginning to talk to you openly so that there's a clear understanding of what is expected, then I would say move on to another bodyman. A good, reliable bodyshop is going to take the time to sit down with you and spend a little time. You, on the otherhand, should respect the bodyman's time by being time-efficient in your meeting. You should do some research beforehand so that you will know what you two are talking about. Talk to some people who have had resto work done; get a very good idea of what is involved - do your homework - then you can have a reasonable idea of where your hard-earned dollars are going, whether the car is worth the investment, and if you're going to be satisfied with the results. It's your money. How much do you want to throw at your project? Or, in rare cases, some people have so much money they really don't care how much it costs. There are a few out there like that and that's the kind of person some bodymen look for. They're kind of the "used-car salesmen" of the body repair industry. This is where your homework comes in. Learn your stuff so you don't get hooked into one of those situations.
This is a kind of "windy" entry on the subject of car restoration but there are always a number of newbies to this, always will be, and maybe one or two may learn a little of what they need to know when entering into this idea.