Air ride, Watts link and Sway bar build (long)

[JRouche]

Hey guys. I just got done changing my rear suspension abit and thought you might like to see some pics.

My car is a 62 Chevy II Nova coupe that I bought in 1995. Was just gonna keep the 350/350 combo and have fun driving it. But the front drum brakes were just too scary. So I installed a Mustang II front (build pics on that later) so I could have disc brakes. And with the nice front I wanted a lil more at the rear. So I bought an Art Morrison 4-link rear clip and installed that. Built an edelbrock injected engine then had a few changes in life. Family (wife wanted kids), moved to a house (was in a condo) and my job was demanding more, more, more. So the car, still un-driven was put on the back burner for many years.

I retired last year so full steam ahead on the car. The 4-link was used for simplicity of the build back in 95 when not much was available for the Novas. But after thinking about it I didn't like some of the characteristics of the 4-link. Narrow pan hard bar and the coil over placements. I did alot of looking around and decided to use Air Ride technologies air ride system with the shockwave air springs and hydraulic shocks. And I couldn't get a longer pan hard bar in there, the one I had was only 24" long, too short, the rear would wallow around on the street, yeah, I did get to drive it around on the local neighborhood streets a lil. So I liked the idea of a watts link. The kits that are out there are great!! But again, I was limited on space so I made up my own. No real cost savings..

So here are some pics of that install. It was fun, and frustrating at the same time..

I have never worked on cars before, this is my first. And I never welded before. So you will see alot of odd looking ideas and some bad welds. I know cause I have to look at them everyday LOL But,,, its the best I can do and its solid so Im not afraid of it coming apart.

Anyway, enough of my back peddling trying to justify the rough looking work. Enjoy and please comment, any of your knowledge will be great for the next project (71 Fiat spider with a large-ish V6. JR


When I bought the car, 1995....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/whenbought1995-1.jpg

Art Morrison rear clip.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/artmorrisonclip-1.jpg

After the rear clip install in 95. Thats kinda covered in another post of mine. Wont bore ya more than Im gonna :)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/1-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/2-1.jpg


First job at hand was the lower shockwave mounts. I used some 9" leaf spring perches cut in half. Had to use two cause they aren't exactly in half. They are heavy duty brackets, 1/4" bent steel. Some additional 1/4" plate to add to the beef of it. I was going to be using the holes in single shear for the shock mounts and I thought a 1/2" would be better than a 1/4" shear plane.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/3-1.jpg

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https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/5-1.jpg

TIG welded up and ready to go.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/6-1.jpg

MIG welded onto the axle housing. I didn't disassemble the housing. I did make sure all the weight was off the housing for the weld. And I welded in about 1.5" sections and cooled the area with a damp rag in between. Took a long time but it never got the housing tube past warm to the touch after cooling. And I beveled the heck out of the brackets so the penetration is pretty good. They aren't going anywhere.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/7-1.jpg

Next was the upper mount. I get alot of use outta this lil 7" band saw.. 1/2" plate.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/8-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/9-1.jpg

[JRouche]

Plasma cut the extra off to make the right shape.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/10-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/11-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/12-1.jpg

Shock used for placement of the upper mount. It is all at ride height. Coilovers still in place. I made some stainless steel spacers so if I need to adjust the 4-link in the future I have some wiggle room inside of the upper mount. The 4-link bars are at their shortest length right now. If I adjust them it may move the rear end back some.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/13-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/14-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/20-1.jpg

Time to weld in the uppers but no way did I want the shocks in there, rubber!! So I made these links that are the same length eye to eye as the shocks at ride height. And they were gonna be needed for the watts link welding too. They helped to get each side of the car exactly right for height when making the watts. I measured everything so many times, jumping back and forth. But the sides are equal to within a 32nd of and inch. And thats axle to frame and body to ground.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/15-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/16-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/17-1.jpg

Plasti-coat bed liner paint I love so much, you will see it on everything.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/18-1.jpg

Finally, the coilovers are outta there, full weight on the struts I made. Ill need the additional space, going be filled up soon.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/19coiloversgone-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/21-1.jpg

[JRouche]

I was a lil pissed. AR sent me the shockwaves with the optional air can (big ugly can over the bag) they sell for a hundred bucks. I didn't want it, looked cheesy IMO.. But. I thought I would give them a chance. If I didn't like the look I could remove them later. No, they didn't charge me for them. Guess they were having alot of problems with guys tearing the bags due to close tolerances. So I really didn't want a massive aluminum can sitting in there. Time for some plasti-coat!!

Ghetto paint booth LOL

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/22-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/shockwaves-1.jpg

So thats the coilover swap. Watts link next..

Watts link time.. I stole some ideas from just about everyone. Looked at ALL the pics out there. Came down to space limitations. I ended up just going simple.

I bought the center pivot from Tim over at Fay's 2. Nice piece. And the DOM tube and weld in ends from another company. I used QA1 rod ends, some of the best out there. I used 3/4x5/8" instead of the 3/4x3/4" Tim uses so I had to make some shims for the center pivot arm mounts.

Now bolts. I could go on and on about bolts. But basically I looked into some NAS (aircraft) bolts cause this stuff is in shear, watts and shock mounts and I wanted the proper grip length. UMMM!! 90 bucks a bolt. I called seven companies all over the US. Yeah, all the regulars, AC spruce, coast fabrication, and all the same. So there are "grade 9" bolts available. Fastenel, Grainger (PFC) and CAT were who I used to get the right length bolts so ALL the shear joints had the grip in shear, never the threads. The grade 9 bolts are all 180k PSI. And really, they are great fasteners and the price was right. Still a couple hundred in bolts.

Anyway.. Some pics....

This is the original pan hard bar, very short, gotta go.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/a-1.jpg

My shopping list. Prolly four dealers here

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/b-1.jpg

Links TIG welded up. I know, not the greatest welds but they are HOT and deep. Had to chase the threads after welding.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/c-1.jpg

And the center pivot mounting. Started as a 1/2" plate. I drilled the 3/4" holes under sized and reamed to a tight slip fit for the center bolt. Then clamped it up to my welding table, its a beast of a table. I used some 2x2" 1/4" wall tube. The stuff is very stiff. Tacked it up, both sides, heavy beveling at the joints then took it outside to put some real heat to it. MIG welded it up tight. Sanded the welds down on one side to have clearance for the center pivot and it helped the appearance too.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/d-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/e-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/f-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/g-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/h-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/i-1.jpg

[JRouche]

Test fitting it up in the car. I used the same 2x2" tube for the cross member to attach it to the frame. I made some angled braces out of heavy walled 2x1.5" tube that would be up above the line of site. Welded it in. That my friend was a drag. Up under the car, leather draped everywhere on the car and myself as Im on my and had to be directly under the weld to see it. And I had the welder on full tilt, welding the 1/4" wall tube to the frame. Heavy bevels again. But I wanted a SOLID connection. Nothing worse than cold joints, not a one here. But it was tight, just to get the gun tip in there, and I dont pull the trigger unless I can see the joint (auto helmet is a must). Wasn't diggin this part at all.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/j-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/k-1.jpg

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Next was the axle tube mounts. Stole this idea from Tim at Fay's. Sorry. Heavy duty 1/4" steel axle clamps. Oh, they dont move at all with just the slightest bolt tightening. Clamp them down tight and they are NOT gonna slip. The full contact makes them so solid. I was kinda wondering if they would deform my axle tubes if I really put the wrench to the bolts so I clamped them up to a thin walled exhaust tube I had. And really laid on the wrench. Didn't deform the 16ga tube at all, no worries for the axle tubes. Oh, and there was alot of pre-weld measuring steps, alot. The arms are clocked different for each side.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/m-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/n-1.jpg

Welded while clamped.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/o-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/p-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/q-1.jpg


Ready to bolt up

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/r-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/s-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/x-1.jpg

[JRouche]

Oh, and bolts.. Some of the fasteners if yer interested. These are all "grade 9" bolts. But I wanted to show how they are hardened. Pretty cool actually. I had to turn down the watts link arm pivot bolts to get the right grip length. I really noticed how hard the outer case hardening was on the bolt and how it got softer at the center. You can see it on the turned end. And when I say hard I mean it. I was using some good carbide inserts and for a second I thought about grabbing the CBN inserts. But I just cranked up the RPMs and let the sparks fly, I love hard turning… But you can see the softer center of the bolt. Thats a good bolt. Not just a bulk hardening of the entire bolt. Has a hard outer surface, pretty deep really, and a softer core. Dont ever let anyone tell you a grade five bolt is better cause a grade 8 bolt is too hard, its just comical some of the threads I read.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/t-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/u-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/v-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/w-1.jpg


Ok, so I'm gonna wrap this up. Sway bar is next. I looked into the sets available. Again, space was an issue, and rates really. My lower roll center with the watts link is gonna give more body roll. So I asked and looked around alot for a good starting point for the bar spring rate needed. Kinda a shot in the dark really without driving the car. But I decided on around 295lbs for the bar. And I already decided on a three piece bar from Speedway Engineering. They have some great stuff, many three piece bars you see labeled under a diff name may be their bar.

Its a straight torsion bar, solid or hollow, with splined ends. The arms are splined also and they come undrilled for the links. So you determine the rate you need and find the length bar that will suit the space issues. Thats where I screwed up, had to buy another bar cause my tires were too close to the first bar's arms. So anyway, get yer rates you need, the length bar that fits and drill the arms for the proper rate. They can be drilled from 10 to 15 inches for various rates.
I ordered the low profile pillow blocks. They come drilled to bolt them to the frame. I wanted a different mount. I made some brackets to bolt through the frame sideways instead of up through the frame.

I had intentions of being able to slide the mounts fore and aft to adjust for sway bar rates and just change the arm mounting holes. Not gonna happen that way. Too difficult to drill perfect holes through the frame. So I'll just get a different bar, same length but different rate if I need to change the rate later down the road. Gotta drive it first to even get to that point. So, here are the pics...

Made some brackets for the pillow blocks. It was a slow process. There is rubber in there. So I plug welded the holes up, cooled with a wet rag in between, made a weld, cooled, and so on. Never got it hot on the rubber side. LONG process.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/a-2.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/b-2.jpg

They weren't set up with zerks so I drilled and tapped some holes and put on some zerks. I also lightly grooved the bearings in an outward spiral direction to allow the grease to move to the entire surface of the bearing. It seems to work, I have done it on some bed mills too.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/c-2.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/pivot-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/d-2.jpg

Made a lil tool to help with holding the bar and pillow bocks up while I figured out the placement.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/e-2.jpg

Arms drilled and reamed for the links.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/f-2.jpg

Measuring up the link mounts. I can conveniently use the flat I welded to the spring perch earlier. Yeah, it was planned. Yeah RIGHT!!!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/g-2.jpg

[JRouche]

Some Zoop seal to protect the links?? I'm just looking for stuff to Zoop, have so much left over from the wheels I did..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/h-2.jpg

Ok, I know, long thread. Here are the last pics as its all done..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/a-3.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/b-3.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/b1-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/c-3.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/d-3.jpg

Comparison………
Before https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/f-3.jpg

After
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/e-3.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/g-3.jpg


On the ground, not ride height but sitting on the bump stops.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/h-3.jpg


Sorry for the long thread, I still had to edit out a hundred pics. And I tend to get a lil long winded LOL The front end is jacked three feet in the air and the control arms are on the bench getting welded on this week. Hope the front goes faster. Thanks for reading, JR

[bret]

Oh. My. God. There will be NO question of anything bending, deflecting, or twisting...ever!

Seriously...nice work! And nice pictures as well. I love the textured coating on the AirCans and the rest of the suspension pieces.

Its hard to critique the geometry and design fully from pictures but I can't imagine that you have put any less effort into that area than you did the execution. The one thing that I cannot see is where the watts link would attach to the frame. From the pictures it looks like both ends attach to the axle tubes...

Congratulations...looking forward to seeing the rest of the project as it progresses!

[bret]

Oh. My. God. There will be NO question of anything bending, deflecting, or twisting...ever!

Seriously...nice work! And nice pictures as well. I love the textured coating on the AirCans and the rest of the suspension pieces.

Its hard to critique the geometry and design fully from pictures but I can't imagine that you have put any less effort into that area than you did the execution. The one thing that I cannot see is where the watts link would attach to the frame. From the pictures it looks like both ends attach to the axle tubes...

Congratulations...looking forward to seeing the rest of the project as it progresses!

Never mind...I'm stupid...center pivot is attached to the frame...like a rock. I'm gonna have another drink.

[oestek]

Very nice work, I'm sure this one will be referenced over and over by many. Thanks for taking all the time to post!

[JRouche]

The one thing that I cannot see is where the watts link would attach to the frame. From the pictures it looks like both ends attach to the axle tubes...

Yup, she floats like a butterfly :) That was my intension, give the look of what?? Where is the beef. Whats holding it together. That paint makes it difficult to discern the pieces from each other in the pics.

Thanks for the boost Bret. I needed that :) And really, its just a bolt in of your products. You guys have some of the best phone support I have used, and I have had to use support alot. JR

[JRouche]

Very nice work, I'm sure this one will be referenced over and over by many. Thanks for taking all the time to post!

Thanks Kevin.. Its ok work, not even like some of the cars on this site. Man!!! Im lost with all the great cars on here. But, they do motivate me. And so do the positive comments. Thanks. JR

[claytonisbob]

VERY nice!!! I knew you were working on a watts link setup and turned out great. I really dig your sway bar too; very clean.

You didn't show anything about having to notch the tank. I'm sure that required some work ;)

[CruizinKev]

wow - nice work man! :twothumbs

[zbugger]

Wow.... Very nice work. I'll be stealing a couple of your ideas, just so you know. Thanks a bunch. I hope you don't mind.

[GRNOVA]

Great work I can almost say I know exactly what you are talking about. We need to get together and talk. :cheers:

So here are some pics of that install. It was fun, and frustrating at the same time..http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn13/tnt342/Homegrown/

[dcozzi]

Wow, what a great undertaking and killer ingenuinity.

Looks like two things will be here when we are gone from the planet, cockroaches and your fabrication work. Beefy is good!

Nice work! I am now a fan of the bedliner spray.

[thetoystore]

very nice work and well timed i will be building my rear swaybar this week or next. and thankyou for doing some great fab work.

[Pro X]

Very Informative thread with Great pics. A few questions though. Where did you get the low profile pillow blocks, splined torsion bar kit with arms and what was the min tensile strength you were looking for on fasteners? I checked Speedway Motors and couldnt find pillow blocks or a torion bar longer than 30". I did find 12.9 alloy shoulder bolts locally that are min tensile 150,000 PSI.

[Bryce]

very nice, i cant wait to start my rear suspension.

post all the pics was awesome

[JRouche]

VERY nice!!! I knew you were working on a watts link setup and turned out great. I really dig your sway bar too; very clean.

You didn't show anything about having to notch the tank. I'm sure that required some work ;)

Thanks.. Good eye.. Yup, it was a tough one to get to. Cut out and weld in without blowing myself up. And it is only a tank shield but still close to the aluminum tank. That meant no plasma and very careful welding. JR

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/cu1-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/cu2-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/trunk-1.jpg

[JRouche]

Great work I can almost say I know exactly what you are talking about. We need to get together and talk. :cheers:
http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/nn13/tnt342/Homegrown/

Lemme tell you. I went and got ALL yer pics last year. Totally examined all of them. Yup, Ive been hot on yer trail for some time. Matter of fact, was all over the front end pics friday. Im on to the front now. Gonna have to tackle shaving off some of the frame to clear the shockwave bag. Control arms are on the bench right now getting modified. Thanks for all yer ideas. JR

[JRouche]

Very Informative thread with Great pics. A few questions though. Where did you get the low profile pillow blocks, splined torsion bar kit with arms and what was the min tensile strength you were looking for on fasteners? I checked Speedway Motors and couldnt find pillow blocks or a torion bar longer than 30". I did find 12.9 alloy shoulder bolts locally that are min tensile 150,000 PSI.

Speedway Engineering. Great folks.. http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybars.htm
All my fasteners are 150,000 to 180,000. Grade 8ish.
Thanks, JR

[minendrews68]

Awesome thread! Great pics too. I bet a lot of people will appreciate this.

[ScotI]

You made the axle clamps?

[JRouche]

Awesome thread! Great pics too. I bet a lot of people will appreciate this.

Thanks Carl... I hope at least some one gets a lil energized from it and cooks up the build process for them. Just simple garage stuff that all you guys can do... Thanks Carl, JR

[JRouche]

You made the axle clamps?

No sir.. Bought them from Ummm, Sorry, on the wrong computer. The link is on the desk top putter.. Ill post it tomorrow.. Nice clamps, there are actually a few companies selling axle clamps. Ill post the link when the sun rises :) JR

[JRouche]

Here they is :) JR
http://www.aa-mfg.com/pdshop/shop/item.aspx?itemid=864

[ScotI]

Thanks.

I've been contemplating a Watts set-up for my 'slightly' modified 67 Chevy truck. I was looking @ the Fays unit but that's some decent coin to spend not knowing if it will work dimensionally (even the 'universal' p/n). Seems making one from scratch might be the way to go since I've tweaked just about everything else on the suspension.

What did you use to determine the appropriate height for the C/L pivot on the links?

[JRouche]

Thanks.


What did you use to determine the appropriate height for the C/L pivot on the links?

Ok, Im not quite getting the question, Im a lil dense sometimes :) The C/L? Center line? Do you mean the height of the link ends on the axle tube clamps? Or are you asking how I determined the center pivot height. Sorry Im not clear on the Q. Lemme know what it is and Ill do my best to answer. JR

[ScotI]

Ok, Im not quite getting the question, Im a lil dense sometimes :) The C/L? Center line? Do you mean the height of the link ends on the axle tube clamps? Or are you asking how I determined the center pivot height. Sorry Im not clear on the Q. Lemme know what it is and Ill do my best to answer. JR

Yep, C/L = center-line.
My fault..... I was clear as mud w/my question :). How did you determine the center pivot height?

[JRouche]

Yep, C/L = center-line.
My fault..... I was clear as mud w/my question :). How did you determine the center pivot height?

Gottcha... Um really good question. One I cant answer so directly cause too be honest its a crap shoot at this point.

The thing is. The pivot point height determines the roll center height for the rear. And I have a mustang II front end and its RC height is in the dirt, Im working on that right now. But its a trade off trying to raise the front RC height and keeping the other issues (camber gain, bump steer and caster) is a touchy issue that I dont think I can get my K member to support, or my brain.

Ok, so I wanted to set the rear RC height as low as I could, and still adjustable if I need to. I wanted to get the roll couple between the front and rear as close to the center of gravity as possible. Or at least in line with each other.

Problem with a low RC in the rear is you will get alot more body roll, making the springs and roll bar do their work. I think I like that. Its about tuning. And Im pretty much stuck with my spring rate (air springs). But I can adjust the sway bar rate. Who knows if it will control the rear like I want it too.

So anyway. The pivot point for the main bell crank on the watts link will determine the rear RC height. And I wanted it as low as possible. So ground interference was the final factor. The pivot sits behind the wheels by a certain amount, so I had to think about speed bumps. Dragging the mount is not a good thing. So I made the main frame that the crank mounts to as low as I think will clear a simple 5" speed bump, or steep driveway. But if not thats where the air springs come into play. Raise the car body up, and the mount is attached to the frame so it will rise too to clear any road hazards. My plan anyway.

But without the air springs I would not make the mounting so low. A rear RC height close to the center of the rear end pinion height is a good point to shoot for. Mine is below that right now..

I wanted to keep it low so the springs and sway bar would still be doing their part to keep the tires planted.. A really high rear RC height limits body roll but the suspension doesnt get a chance to control the tires as they should.

And really, I dont know jack about suspensions.. Just kinda muddling through it all. Ill let you know how she handles, once the front is back together. JR

[ScotI]

Gottcha... Um really good question. One I cant answer so directly cause too be honest its a crap shoot at this point.

The thing is. The pivot point height determines the roll center height for the rear. And I have a mustang II front end and its RC height is in the dirt, Im working on that right now. But its a trade off trying to raise the front RC height and keeping the other issues (camber gain, bump steer and caster) is a touchy issue that I dont think I can get my K member to support, or my brain.

Ok, so I wanted to set the rear RC height as low as I could, and still adjustable if I need to. I wanted to get the roll couple between the front and rear as close to the center of gravity as possible. Or at least in line with each other.

Problem with a low RC in the rear is you will get alot more body roll, making the springs and roll bar do their work. I think I like that. Its about tuning. And Im pretty much stuck with my spring rate (air springs). But I can adjust the sway bar rate. Who knows if it will control the rear like I want it too.

So anyway. The pivot point for the main bell crank on the watts link will determine the rear RC height. And I wanted it as low as possible. So ground interference was the final factor. The pivot sits behind the wheels by a certain amount, so I had to think about speed bumps. Dragging the mount is not a good thing. So I made the main frame that the crank mounts to as low as I think will clear a simple 5" speed bump, or steep driveway. But if not thats where the air springs come into play. Raise the car body up, and the mount is attached to the frame so it will rise too to clear any road hazards. My plan anyway.

But without the air springs I would not make the mounting so low. A rear RC height close to the center of the rear end pinion height is a good point to shoot for. Mine is below that right now..

I wanted to keep it low so the springs and sway bar would still be doing their part to keep the tires planted.. A really high rear RC height limits body roll but the suspension doesnt get a chance to control the tires as they should.

And really, I dont know jack about suspensions.. Just kinda muddling through it all. Ill let you know how she handles, once the front is back together. JR
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I figured a good starting point would be to have the pivot @ approx the height of the rear-end. Sounds like I'm in the ball park as far as planning.

[Bryce]

JR,

i have been following this post and i enjoy seeing your work.

i was thinking about air springs and changing spring stiffness.

all the air spring is doing is changing the "spring" rate as you raise or lower the car. the stiffer the spring the higher it sits. if that is true you could alter the attachments points for the air shock mounts. if you lower the lower mount then add more air the ride height would be the same but the spring would be stiffer.

[JRouche]

JR,

i have been following this post and i enjoy seeing your work.

i was thinking about air springs and changing spring stiffness.

all the air spring is doing is changing the "spring" rate as you raise or lower the car. the stiffer the spring the higher it sits. if that is true you could alter the attachments points for the air shock mounts. if you lower the lower mount then add more air the ride height would be the same but the spring would be stiffer.

Hey thanks... And you are right on the one the spring rate I think. I really dont know much but Ill try to describe it how I see it..

For the shockwaves they are meant to be used at a certain ride height. Meaning the spring, not the car. Maybe like 2 thirds of travel on compression and a third on extension.

So... they will suspend just about any cars load within that range. Put them under a 1000 lbs car and the air pressure is gonna be lower. Put them under a 4000 lbs car and the air pressure will be higher.

Now.. They only seem to have two air bags. One for the front and one for the rear. 1000 series for the front and 9000 series for the rear. I see the 8000 series too but dont know if its still used.

So Im ONLY guessing here but it seems like the same air spring on the two cars are gonna act similarly. Because of the compensating factor of the air itself. You would almost want to say no, the heavy car is gonna feel softer and the light car stiffer. But no. You have to increase the pressure for the weight of the car at ride height. And gravitational forces are pretty constant.

Now thats if you are thinking statically. As the spring compresses what effect does the higher pressure in the same volume have?? To me it would seem that the rate of increase would be higher.

And with that Im surprised ART hasnt made a simple active jig to mount the springs up to with proper gauges and test the various car weights. Couldnt you graph a spring rate that way?? As much talk that there is asking what the spring rates are if it were my company I would investigate the issues. Just if for anything my own personal curiosity. But from a companies standpoint it would seem even more important.

Ok, I strayed again. Back to what you are saying. Yup, you could change the mounting points of the spring. But remember, they have a pretty critical working envelope. Just like you want to keep yer front lower control arms flat, you need to run the air springs within their designed envelope. Otherwise you will be hitting the internal stops, not good.

IMO the air ride springs are NOT meant as an adjusting tool to change your ride height or to have an adjustable spring rate. Dont think of them as coilover shocks, they arent. They have one specific spring rate (its progressive though) for the weight of your car and one ride height.

Sometimes I think folks see the air ride adjustability in height as a ride height adjustability but thats not the case.

And everything I just said is from my own lil head, I may have it all wrong and Im not speaking from experience :) JR

[pitstain]

Air ride does indeed have load charts for the airspirngs at various pressures and levels of compression, all you have to do is ask and they will e-mail them over.

Before putting shockwaves on my Lightning I asked them for every chart they had. In the end, my truck handles better, has a more comfortable ride, and lets me show off at carshows, all my wishes were fully granted.

Here is one from my rear shockwave 9000 units.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/rearswJPG-1.jpg

[JRouche]

Air ride does indeed have load charts for the airspirngs at various pressures and levels of compression, all you have to do is ask and they will e-mail them over.

Well lookie here!!! Sweet. Thanks abunch. Wouldnt happen to have one for the fronts would you??? If not Ill call them and ask. That woulda been some useful info to post on their web page or supply to the customer with the installation instructions.

Maybe they think its more than the average customer wants to know. But hell, after tossin 3500 bucks their way I would have enjoyed being flooded with more info than the install sheet and endless advertising in glossy paper and catalogues. Most of it went in the trash. How many catalogues does a guy need LOL Yeah, I got three catalogues and an endless supply of glossy mag inserts.

Some white papers like what you posted here would have been more helpful. THANKS!!! JR

[ScotI]

Nice! How do I make sense of the supplied info?

My plan has been to run ShockWaves on my truck, but lately I've been considering coil-overs because the added expense of an automated air system is getting pretty steep. I'm cheap.... my previous air systems (basic set-ups on 2 different trucks) were manually controlled w/no solenoids or electronic valves.

[pitstain]

Well lookie here!!! Sweet. Thanks abunch. Wouldnt happen to have one for the fronts would you??? If not Ill call them and ask. That woulda been some useful info to post on their web page or supply to the customer with the installation instructions.

Maybe they think its more than the average customer wants to know. But hell, after tossin 3500 bucks their way I would have enjoyed being flooded with more info than the install sheet and endless advertising in glossy paper and catalogues. Most of it went in the trash. How many catalogues does a guy need LOL Yeah, I got three catalogues and an endless supply of glossy mag inserts.

Some white papers like what you posted here would have been more helpful. THANKS!!! JR

JR,

Glad I could help, and I had quite q few instruction manuals and catalogs as well, but one for the bathroom, one for the garage, one in the truck, etc.....LOL

The guys at AirRide are bar none the best bunch I have ever dealt with, and there is not one person there who is not fully versed with all the tech you could need, I personally tossed more than $3,700 at them, and they take care of everyone just as good as they take care of me.

The tech papers are more than the average joe would ask for, and in most cases would over complicate things for most, and cause more useless questions than needed.

But for those who ask, they have it all, I must say they have the equipment (shock/spring dyno) and knowhow to explain when a nudge like me starts peppering them with questions about spring rate vs. psi vs. compression....A+

I dug up the front shockwave 1000 sheet for ya bud. ENJOY !

I'll toss in a pic of my truck just to picture whore as well.

Ian

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/frontswJPG-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/3608660186_99a0bbd517_b-1.jpg

[pitstain]

Nice! How do I make sense of the supplied info?

My plan has been to run ShockWaves on my truck, but lately I've been considering coil-overs because the added expense of an automated air system is getting pretty steep. I'm cheap.... my previous air systems (basic set-ups on 2 different trucks) were manually controlled w/no solenoids or electronic valves.

Making sense of the info require similar spring rate.load charts for whatever conventional springs you would use, and keep in mind the progressive'ness of the airsprings will always give a smoother ride than any coil spring, even a progressive coil spring, which usually suffer from annoying and jarring coil bind.

I debated the coil-over setup vs. AirRide, and based on the wealth of info I got from AirRide, I took the leap of faith, and honestly at this point will install AirRide on every future "piss off the woman" vehicle I own, I am a function before form type of person, and the ART setup satisfies the wheat and frosted sides.

I will quote my last HPDE instructor.

"Feels like a caddilac seville with 3 inch thick swaybars!!!"

Nuff' said.:1st:

Ian

P.S. Anyone want shock dyno sheets? :smoke:

20 in/per sec @ 0 - 8 - 16 clicks, for compression and rebound

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/shockdyno20-1.bmp

[JRouche]

I dug up the front shockwave 1000 sheet for ya bud. ENJOY !

Thanks abunch Ian... JR

[pitstain]

Glad I could be of help, if you need any more charts, I am fresh out, but you can hit up, Darren, Tony, Jon or any of the guys at ART and they should be able to get you squared away.


:)