Orange Peel

[fantasygoat]

I just got my car back from paint on Friday and it's a bit too orange-peely for my tastes.

It's black base/clear and the clear is fairly thick in most spots. The painter said I should just leave it as-is, as buffing would leave swirl marks.

Can anyone give some recommendations as to what I might do to reduce the appearance of the orange peel?

[manicmechanic]

Cutting and Buffing is all I know to reduce this issue.

[justasquid]

About all you can do is wet sand it and wheel it out. The only problem I would see if you dont really know how much clear they used. The cars I've painted in the past I used 4 coats. One mist coat, then 3 wet coats. I would then wet sand until every little shiny spot was gone. I figured I sanded off at least one coat just to get it smooth, maybe even into the second coat. I would start out with 1000 grit. A good amount of steady flowing water and I would sand on panel at a time. Dry it off to make sure its smooth. Touch up areas that need it. then go to 2000 grit. I would then take a good cutting compound and wheel it out with a wool pad. I have also used a cutting foam pad with good luck, and certain situations prefer it. Then switch to a finish cut foam pad and use a micro finish compound.

If they only put one or two coats of clear on, you may run into problems.

when you say the clear is fairly thick in most spots? do you mean its more orange peel like in most spots? If so, generally, when there is more orange peel in an area, that means there is less clear. If its fairly smooth overall and just certain areas that have more orange peel, that usually means less clear. And, the problem there is you need to sand even more in those areas, with less clear. it can be a real problem.

I have in the past used an orbital buffer to cut and polish. then polish again with an random orbital buffer. It will remove most swirl marks left from the orbital. I've always used 3M and have had good luck with them. I'm sure there are better products out there, but they have worked good for me. Keep in mind, I'm not a profesional painter, so take this advice with a grain of salt.

In the end, the painter should be willing to cut and buff for you and have the proper means to avoid swirl marks. in my opinion, the paint job isn't done if there is too much orange peel.

[Doug G]

Sounds like your painter is not willing to complete his work.

[fantasygoat]

Basically what I've been hearing from everyone is that the painter did a half-ass job and didn't finish. The problem is that I've already paid in full and picked up the car, and I paid in cash at his insistence. He told me a colour sanding and more clear would be, like, $3000, but you're telling me I should have gotten at least a basic colour sanding included?

What would be the best way to go about convincing him to finish the job? I will call him tomorrow to ask about it but since he has my money I'm not sure what incentive he has to do it.

[TIRE FRYER]

color sand and buff is no big deal, and when done properly should leave absolutely no swirl marks. sounds like your body guy feels he should have charged you more for the whole package, and doesnt want to finish. cut your losses, leave him and go to a reputable body shop and have them color sand an buff your paint. it should only cost a few hundred bucks and will make all the diffierence. just my 2 cents. good luck buddy

[Gearhead Dude]

I agree that you should leave this guy and find a reputable painter who can cut and buff it for you. I've seen great results from 3M's Trizact system, as it removes less of the clear than conventional sandpaper. Google it to check it out. My 2 cents...

[PRRC]

As others have said the car needs to be wet sanded and buffed. Your paint shop should of explained the process to you and included exactly what was included for the price they had quoted.
The wet sanding progress is very time consuming when done correctly. We start by cutting the clear with 800 followed by 1000, 1500, 2000 we use 4 different pads and 4 different compounds before we are finished. it takes several hours per panel to achieve a flawless finish.
We figure between 1500 and 1800 to buff a car. thats ruffly 30 some hours of work start to finish.

[fantasygoat]

I talked to the painter and he tells me they put two coats of clear on it, which I hope will be enough to do wet sanding with. He also said he's willing to deal with the runs in the clear but not do the whole car. So, that will be on me to do.

Thanks for the advice, it was helpful!

[PRRC]

2 coats is not enough to sand and buff.

[fantasygoat]

Three other painters are telling me it's enough - barely - but to avoid any body lines, just stick to the flat parts, both for sanding and buffing.

Are they full of it?

[MuscleRodz]

if you color sand and buff 2 coats it will not hold and will look like crap in a couple years. Also a very good chance you will go through the clear not knowing if it was 2 thin coats or two thick coats.

[thetoystore]

2 coats will be fine. and for the thickness of the final product it will hold up thro the years. the clear on any production car is thinner that one coat of man sprayed paint. just let someone who knows what there doin do it

[justasquid]

also, with the clear being orange peeled, it was probably light coats, not heavy. Usually, a heavier coat will smooth out and not be so rough.

I think as long as your not expecting a super flat, smooth paint job, you can probably do a light wet sand. you will still have some orange peel, but you can get rid of a lot of it without worrying too much. But as musclerodz said, the durability will be diminished. Every little bit you take off, you loose that much in uv protection.

If you do take this on yourself, heed the warnings about staying away from bodylines, but also stay away from edges as well. Make sure when your wheeling out near edges or bodylines, your buffer wheel is moving outwards to the edge, not into it them, as it will help limit the possibility of the buffer wheel snaggin an edge and digging into your paint. Ive even gone as far as to tape off an edge. Such as if Im buffing the fender, I tape off the doors edge so the buffer doesnt go into the edge of the door. This may be me just being paranoid and may not be needed, but just a quirk that I do.

keep your rpms slow and let the buffer do the work. theres no need to apply pressure to the buffer. Do a very thorough job with the wet sanding. I would also suggest finishing up with 3000 grit sandpaper. If all goes well with the sanding, the buffing goes quick and smooth.

[PRRC]

I will stick to what I had said before. 2 coats is not enough to wet sand and buff. We do this every day for a living. We are a full service shop. If you only lightly wet sand the panel and not remove all the orange peel and try to buff the panel will look hazey. there is no reason to wet sand if your not going to remove all the orange peel. The process we use is 800 to level the clear and remove any orange peel. the next sanding steps 1000,1500,2000 are to remove the sand scratches and ready the panel to polish. we shoot 2 coats on small parts we will not buff. anything that will be buffed recieves 3 coats. all wet coats. we have been at this for more than 30 years.

[fantasygoat]

I'm getting conflicting answers from people. Basically, what are my options at this stage? Just "live with it" like the painter said? From the sounds of it, that's it.

[MuscleRodz]

How about some pics.

[fantasygoat]

All I have are some distance pictures. I can get some closeups this weekend.

Funny thing is the paint looks great in the photos I have! You can't see the dirt specks or much of the orange peel.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[PRRC]

The pics look great. It appears to have enough clear on the car. But its really hard to tell from a picture. All top coats will have some orange peel in the panel. Thats why you wet sand and buff. I think 2 coats of clear is still to thin. Like Mike said earlier in this thread to thin and it just wont hold up over time. The panels will start to check. At this point its a shot in the dark.

[MuscleRodz]

Close ups are needed as those don't show much. As shot panels will have some peel, can't get around that. At least get the guy to nib the trash and remove the run you mentioned earlier. Any more than that, sand the car down with 600-800 and apply a couple more coats of clear to give plenty of room to cut and buff. I would rather look at an as shot car than a partial cut and buff. Ever seen a fat women's a$$? Exactly what a poor cut and buff looks like, and black will be worse than other colors.

[Hogshooter]

For black I would sand and reclear, way easier to get a flat (less peel) finish then if you do not like you can sand some more and buff. This discussion about how much clear is worthless without knowing what clear brand, reduction rate used by your painter, and # of coats applied. 2 wet coats of high solids clear is ussually about 3.0-3.8 mils thick. you need at least 2-2.5 mils for the job to hold up in the sun over time. These #s are for PPG Global, if your painter used cheap stuff 2 wet coats may only be 2.0 mils which is not enough.

[fantasygoat]

Here's some close up photos of the paint for reference. You can click on the links to see full size photos.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
http://www.popfuel.com/images/junk/torino-paint-large-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
http://www.popfuel.com/images/junk/torino-paint-large-2.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
http://www.popfuel.com/images/junk/torino-paint-large-3.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
http://www.popfuel.com/images/junk/torino-paint-large-4.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
http://www.popfuel.com/images/junk/torino-paint-large-5.jpg

Basically the whole car looks like this, although some of the top coats are smoother. It looks okay from about 5 feet away but up close it's all orange peel.

[justasquid]

When I saw the first pics, I thought you must just be a very picky person, but after these new close up shots, I wouldn't be happy with that either. I cant believe the painter said it was good the way it is and to just leave it that way.

I agree with the other post here. sand it and put a few more coats of clear on it, then sand it and wheel it out.

Id check with the guy who did it and see what he would charge for two more coats of clear after a sand, if you guys are still on good terms anyway.

[wmhjr]

How did you arrange the paint job? If it was time and materials, you may be out of luck - though the painter isn't doing his reputation any good by shoving this out the door. If it was a quote for a completed paint job, the painter is on the hook and should fix this at no cost.

I'd consider talking to your local magistrate.

[camaro2nv]

Close ups are needed as those don't show much. As shot panels will have some peel, can't get around that. At least get the guy to nib the trash and remove the run you mentioned earlier. Any more than that, sand the car down with 600-800 and apply a couple more coats of clear to give plenty of room to cut and buff. I would rather look at an as shot car than a partial cut and buff. Ever seen a fat women's a$$? Exactly what a poor cut and buff looks like, and black will be worse than other colors.
This is what I would do. I would not risk cutting 2 coats.

[fantasygoat]

I've decided that I can't live with the job this guy has done so I want to get a few more coats of clear put on it.

Anyone know a shop in the Toronto, Ontario area I can trust to do a decent job?

[justasquid]

I dont know of anyone in that area, but I think I would get ahold of hte person that did the job and at the very least see what brand of paint he was using. I dont know if it will matter since its been awhile since it was painted and there shouldnt be any reactions, but you probably want to stick with the same brand just to be sure.

In all honesty, the orange peel pretty bad, well, really bad, but if there were enough coats of clear, it wouldnt be an issue. This guy should be willing to put a few more coats on at the very least at cost.

You may find it hard to get anyone to clear it other than the original guy. A lot of shops wont warranty something like that, and most of the time dont want to touch it just because they dont know whats under it. If they see the clear this way, they are gonna second guess this guys ability not only to spray, but to do a good prep job too.

good luck with this. I feel really bad for you in this situation. Ive seen better backyard jobs than this.

[Northern Goat]

I've decided that I can't live with the job this guy has done so I want to get a few more coats of clear put on it.

Anyone know a shop in the Toronto, Ontario area I can trust to do a decent job?

Check the PM I sent you a few months ago and give me a call.