Talk me off the ledge [Archive]

69TAPoser

03-27-2009, 02:09 PM

Okay guys, this is what happens when projects go on too long and I need a sanity check.

I currently have this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

But my eyes have been wandering to this..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/DSC01575-1.jpg

Please provide some reasoning for me to "stay the course." :rolleyes:

I now have a speedtech subframe that can accomodate the engine, so the swap would mostly involve the fuel tank and???

Phil

fishtail8

03-27-2009, 02:16 PM

Everyone and their dog is doing an LS - 6spd swap, not everyone and their dog has an actual Pontiac...

1badchevelle

03-27-2009, 02:21 PM

x2^ Wat you have looks good. maybe just add the 6 speed.

moreHP

03-27-2009, 02:29 PM

Stay the course man! It looks sweet with the poncho motor!

Bill Howell

03-27-2009, 02:41 PM

Everyone and their dog is doing an LS - 6spd swap, not everyone and their dog has an actual Pontiac...

There is a reason for that!

I say do the LS swap. Screw original, get something dependable and gets much better MPG!
Save the poncho iron for the purists. This site is about protouring and modern drivetrains, plenty others out there for purists.
Just my opinion, but this is a no brainer if you really plan on driving the car.

Vegas69

03-27-2009, 02:44 PM

You're going to lose your shorts on your current set up. How about adding fuel injection and the six speed?

LateNight72

03-27-2009, 02:49 PM

there is a reason for that!

I say do the ls swap. Screw original, get something dependable and gets much better mpg!
Save the poncho iron for the purists. This site is about protouring and modern drivetrains, plenty others out there for purists.
Just my opinion, but this is a no brainer if you really plan on driving the car.
+ 1

dhutton

03-27-2009, 04:28 PM

Speaking from experience these swaps look deceptively simple but there is a lot of plumbing and wiring to get one done. Power steering hoses, oil pressure sender, temp sender, speedo, tach, modifying or replacing the harness, fan wiring, fuel pump wiring, accelerator cable, add new fuses for all the new circuits, it takes a fair amount of time to research adaptor sizes and how to run all the wires. You'll need a new oil pan, new headers, engine mounts, new air intake plumbing, O2 sensors, fuel tank with sump, external fuel regulator with return line, hydraulic clutch mods, relocate the A/C compressor. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things.

I can't help but think you would be ahead of the game adding EFI to your Pontiac. Of course some of the above would also have to be done.

I think the LS2 would be awesome in your car but so will that Pontiac with EFI. Check with Frank on the FAST EFI he has on Empty Nest.

Spend some time over in the conversion forum on ls1tech.com. You will find all you want to know about putting an LSx in a first gen F body.

Just my two cents worth,
Don

MrQuick

03-27-2009, 05:04 PM

Do what makes you happy. Regret is a very expensive emotion. Do it.

bl1tzw1ng

03-27-2009, 05:06 PM

I vote for keeping the Poncho.

2 things already set you apart from the crowd....you aren't building a Camaro and you didn't use an LS motor. Any time you build a car, no matter what you build or what style you are going for, there seems to be "rules" that need to be followed. Once you leave the realm of original, why should you need to build something under a certain set of terms? Hell, the 455 hasn't been in production for 33 years. Your's runs? Can't get more dependable than that.

MonzaRacer

03-27-2009, 05:42 PM

keep the Poncho, add EFI, over drive and tada super indian

critter

03-27-2009, 05:44 PM

I just yawn when I see an LS motor these days. I am NOT taking anything away from them. They are the best power train out there for the money. I'd simply rather see something different from time to time. I have more respect for the different stuff and the fact that the builder went the path less traveled to have something unique and different. So the real question for you is, are you going to follow along with the others or go another direction? It's your car. Do what you want. It's your money and your car. Make yourself happy.

dadto2jays

03-27-2009, 05:44 PM

I like what you have already in there.

vp23271

03-27-2009, 05:44 PM

When and where does it end? A newer, bigger and badder LS is always going to be around the corner (if GM does not go belly up lol). I think your current set up is cool as is. Nothing wrong with what'cha got

Maybe let the money decide. Pick a dollar figure you want for the Poncho motor and try to sell it. If you don't have to eat too much crow on the deal, sell it and put the money towards a LS.

If you do get a LS, paint the block the same color as the Poncho motor. That looks sick!

68Formula

03-27-2009, 05:52 PM

Instead of restating reasons, I'll just say this: Because you'll be delaying the build that much more.

BTW, my Pontiac engine has been completely dependable.

minendrews68

03-27-2009, 06:07 PM

Do what makes you happy. Regret is a very expensive emotion. Do it.

Now there's a man who knows what he's talking about....Well Said.
Carl

zo66

03-27-2009, 06:17 PM

the crate ls2 was reasonable,then the l76/ l92 heads and intake were the obvious upgrade then the cartek cam ,then the speartec harness,then the lsx radiator then the headers from stainlessworks,
then the front accessory drive from s&p yeah but i will get 24 mpg and maybe 500 hp,10k later minus the 3k you will get for your old stuff, all i can say is it does add up...lol

trapin

03-27-2009, 07:01 PM

Phil...Mark Stielow gave me some great advice years ago (which sadly...I did not follow). He told me, "Don't get caught up chasing trends".

My advice to you; don't do what I did.

I would stay with the poncho motor and finish the project but save the LS application for a later date down the road. These engines aren't going anywere. They'll be available when you're ready.

....and they'll probably be cheaper by then too.

69TAPoser

03-27-2009, 07:13 PM

Thanks guys, I really appreciate everyone's input (for and against). :twothumbs

I think I know what I want to do, finish this project as intended and do an LS powered project (maybe a street rod?) for my NEXT project. :)

I do want to get the car driving by Fall.

Phil

Taylor1969

03-27-2009, 07:51 PM

From someone who ALMOST did the same things as you.... I just fired my 383 stroker and I am glad that I'll be driving the car in a week or so

:D

BA.

03-27-2009, 08:01 PM

I'm not a purist but unless you have a gas mileage concern, I'd say keep that Poncho motor in there. That's bitchin.

Hope you stay the course and get it on the road sooner. Why spend thousands that you don't need to.

CRead01

03-27-2009, 08:19 PM

I think you will have to think of where you are going with your car.

It looks like you have two awesome choices. You could even mix em and put the 6 speed in.

don't follow the trends but dont let anyone talk you out of either one. if you are going for more of a vintage look go with the old school. otherwise the ls motor is cool too. who cares if alot of other people have em. that's for a reason.

just my .02

TA219

03-27-2009, 08:23 PM

Speaking from experience these swaps look deceptively simple

Quoted for the truth!! I agree that you would probably be just as happy with your current setup and a 6-speed as you would be with a LSx in the long run

Vegas69

03-27-2009, 08:39 PM

The money you would lose doing the swap will allow fast efi and a junkyard 6 speed. My plans are to fuel inject my big block and if I ever encounter engine problems, an aluminum block . Doesn't get any better from looks to function. LS motors are the cat meow but they are getting to be about as common as a cold beer on Friday night!

andrewb70

03-27-2009, 09:12 PM

Lenie

03-27-2009, 09:52 PM

Phil, I've already put myself through this mental torture, I even ran a poll to find out the majorities outlook on the subject. A few thoughts that changed my mind were motors are always evolving as technology moves forward and as we speak LS2's have become dated and and are being replaced with, first LS7's and now moving into the LS9 era. As much as I like the LS's drivability, I had to ask myself, if I have this car 20 years down the road (and I plan on keeping it in the family) what motor do I want to have in it then? To be honest, yours and Cliffs motors were my inspiration. As nice as the LS motors are today, I enjoy going to the car shows and seeing the old motors done up nice. Here's to hoping you keep the poncho.:fingersx: Good luck with the decision, hopefully I made the right one.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc02099qtp.jpg)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc021091.jpg)

shmoov69

03-28-2009, 07:00 AM

well, you got a Pontiac for a reason........otherwise you would just have another 69 Camaro..........prolly with an LSX.........and prolly red.........

Catch my drift? LOL.

Mr.VENGEANCE

03-28-2009, 07:23 AM

mights as well JUMP!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
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68cutlass

03-28-2009, 07:47 AM

Nothing against the plethora of really-well done first-gen/Ls-powered Camaros on this site, but if you make that swap its going to eat away at you in the back of your mind. I'm by no means a purist, but I still feel that a Pontiac should have a Pontiac motor, an Olds an Olds, and so on. It just doesn't seem right otherwise. Your engine looks very well-put together at this point. Its actually one of the engine pics I saved on my computer when I was deciding what I was going to do with my engine. Just upgrade areas of it if feel the need to tinker with it.

In all honesty, if we were really that concerned about reliability, gas mileage, and performance, we'd all be driving C5/C6 Corvettes. There are certainly easier paths to reach those goals than 30 to 40 year-old muscle cars.

-Mark

dropit69

03-28-2009, 09:37 AM

that ls he had pics of is a pontiac so at least youll be keeping it right..but i love the look of your original motor plans..i say keep it and later if ya want to go lsx you can..

critter

03-28-2009, 01:42 PM

I have to disagree about the LS motor not being common. It started to become common in 07 when I was on Hot Rod Power Tour. Now I see several at every cruise in we host here in Little Rock.

Again, it's not wrong if that's the way you want to go. It's just become a trend with a lot of people. The engine/transmission combinations that GM have developed are incredible and are worthy transplants for any build.

Kenova

03-28-2009, 05:10 PM

Why do people still build flat heads?
Why do some people spend half a decade chasing down a few pieces of early fifties speed equipment?
Probably for the same reason you would want to keep your Pontiac mill, because it's still cool and you like it.
I myself have an old Smokey Ram intake, and one of these days I'll build an engine around it and stuff it into my Nova. Why? Because it looks wild and you just don't see them in use.
As mentioned previously, not everything we do is the most efficient or makes the most sense. A lot of it is little more than personal preference and the desire for something different.

Ken

subtlez28

03-28-2009, 06:52 PM

Why do people still build flat heads?
Why do some people spend half a decade chasing down a few pieces of early fifties speed equipment?
Probably for the same reason you would want to keep your Pontiac mill, because it's still cool and you like it.

Well said.

If it were a Camaro, I'd say go LSX. I've been through a similar debate with my Buick project. I'm going L92 because I want to road race it (and it is cheaper and more replaceable), but an injected aluminum headed 455 would be cooler. If I had a well built Buick engine already... I'd keep it!

shortrack

03-28-2009, 07:33 PM

I see so many stalled projects.....get it up and running......some efi on the Poncho would be cool....

b-man

03-28-2009, 08:10 PM

If you want nearly twice the fuel mileage and to be able to knock about 150# off the front of the car, go LSX.

If neither of those matter to you, keep the Pontiac.

I love Pontiac engines, two of my cars have them and they're sweet engines.

But I also know that the LS-series engines are very special, my '02 WS6 has one and my '64 Tempest is getting an LS3.

Tough decision for sure, but for better handling (that's what Pro-Touring is all about) it's hard to beat an all-aluminum V8. The better fuel efficiency of the LSX is just an added bonus.

Just find another old Pontiac that doesn't need to turn corners and put your Pontiac engine in that.

Problem solved. :)

T_Raven

03-28-2009, 08:12 PM

I've had the same delema on my 67. It has a pretty strong 455 now and I have an LS1/t56 sitting in my shop. But I also have an extra t56 to put behind a Pontiac engine in one of my cars. The only downside to a Pontiac engine IMO is the extra weight. And I can't justify $5k for an aluminum block. If I stay with a Pontiac engine I'll stroke a 400 block, use KRE heads, EFI, and a T56.

I have only ever seen one LSx swap in person so I don't think it's all that common in general. But I do agree with the LS engines possibly being dated soon. What about in 10 years? Will looking at an LS1 in our cars be like seeing an LT1 today?

andrewb70

03-28-2009, 09:04 PM

.....Will looking at an LS1 in our cars be like seeing an LT1 today?

Not likely. The LT1 was only produced from 92-97, so just 5 years. The LSx engine family is going strong, this being the 12th year of productions.

As soon as anyone mentioned EFI for an older engine, like a Pontiac, the cost starts to really tip towards an LSx engine. The cost of an aftermarket EFI system for a Pontiac is about the same as a whole LS1 engine.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL-350001&N=700+115&autoview=sku

Andrew

mayhem148

03-29-2009, 04:11 AM

do you plan on racing or more of a show car. you can make the ls go fast for cheap.(acording to everybody else.) personally, the LS motors dont look good under the hood of a car. to modern. i feel you would get more attention with a old motor made more up to date. i know the advatages of fuel injection but i am tired of seeing that to. stay with the carb 455. you have a good start already. if you swap engines you are just rewinding the clock. finish the car with what you have and go for a ride, and i bet it doesnt matter what engine you have. get your hotrod going and the worry about upgrades.
its not the build that i enjoy its the feeling of finally letting your friends and neighbors know what you have been up to. that is a since of pride that cant be replaced anywhere else.

130fe

03-29-2009, 04:37 AM

I am in a similiar situation right now with my 68. I have had a LT1 in it for the past 7 years and it has been totally dependable. I just bought an L92 last week and am searching for a t56 for it. Did I HAVE to have it? No, there is nothing wrong with my current setup. I am just want to update my car and go faster at the same time. I have had my car since 93 and nothing has ever been "original" about it. It is "cheaper" to change the motor setup than it would be to build another car. I am going to run the current setup and change everything out next fall. My advice to you is try and get your car on the road (with poncho motor) and run it for this summer. If you still want to change later this year, then do it then. Go enjoy your car right now. Save the brainstorming for the winter months.

minendrews68

03-29-2009, 05:59 AM

I'll have to say I've built a "old school" 383 stroker for my '68, but then that's just me...

69TAPoser

03-29-2009, 06:26 AM

All very good points, thanks guys. This is a good discussion thread. :twothumbs

I am not concerned with gas mileage and I will not be racing it. A agree that the LS motors are awesome for all the points already mentioned, that is what made me starting looking into them.

I am moving forward with poncho motor. I already have a new TKO600 that I am using and I don't plan on taking the poncho back out. That doesn't mean that I won't tweak it once in. :) This inglese carb setup has caught my eye as a potential "interesting" upgrade down the road:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

...Imagine that pic but in Pontiac Blue vs. red.

I have decided that I would like to do an LSx project for my "next" project. But the Bird will still be staying with me. :)

Phil

BossaNova

03-29-2009, 06:36 AM

An all aluminum engine with fuel injection that makes over 400hp right off the pallet?

Ahhhhhh. Pinch me.....I must be dreaming.

And they're selling for what? Shut up!

Hey Rover. Roll that tool chest over here. I'm gonna need your help.

Derek69SS

03-29-2009, 07:16 AM

If the poncho motor will satisfy your performance goals, keep it.

I was in a similar predicament... I have a stock LT1/4L60e in my car now, but it's low on HP, and I really wanted a 6spd. I figured I could get to 400+RWHP for ~$2k, which would promptly destroy my 4L60e, at which point I'd be another $2K+ into it to swap in the T56, and when all is said and done, I'm at the peak HP I can get without spending money on the bottom end, or adding boost.

So, I bought an LS1/T56 that already has some nice bolt-ons done to it for $2850, and will spend a couple thousand more to put it in. In the end, I'll be probably $1500 deeper into it than what achieving the same performance out of my LT1 would cost, but with a platform that will allow me to build on to make more power in the future.

Twentyover

03-29-2009, 09:08 AM

MonzaRacer

03-29-2009, 11:21 AM

They do make an aftermarket aluminum block for Pontiacs

b-man

03-29-2009, 11:44 AM

They do make an aftermarket aluminum block for PontiacsUnfortunately the cost of the cost of a bare Pontiac aftermarket aluminum block is almost what you'd pay for an entire LS3 crate engine.

An aluminum Pontiac block goes for $4,695.00, it will need some additional machining and prep to be ready to use. These blocks were going for about 7K when they were first introduced:http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/engines_assemblies/aluminum.html

130fe

03-29-2009, 12:44 PM

Tony_SS

03-29-2009, 01:41 PM

I really enjoyed the LS2/M6 in my 06 GTO. But in your situation, I'd finish up what you have and keep the swap in the back of your mind, or a corner of the garage for the future.

critter

03-29-2009, 01:45 PM

One thing that puzzles me in this discussion is that everyone wants to bring up EFI. I've own EFI, I own DPI, I own a carbed car. Each is different in its own way but any of them, properly tuned, starts and runs well. I see no need to run EFI on my Poncho motor when the Quadrajet gives me 16 mpg (if I keep my foot out of it). I might get a whopping 18 mpg with EFI. For the price tag of the swap to EFI I can buy a lot of fuel.

PonchoJohn

03-29-2009, 07:18 PM

From all the guys I've talked to who have put a T-56 behind their Poncho V8, they report anywhere from mid to upper 20 mpg's. Seems pretty good to me.

rogue

03-30-2009, 11:02 AM

LSX... yawn....

stealth71

03-30-2009, 11:48 AM

Lets put things in perspective. LSx swaps are NOT that common in the "real world." It may seem that way here, on this board, but in reality, when you lift the hood at a local auto show, the heads turn!

That being said, get your Pontiac powered car running. It will only make you more appreciative of LSx power. :-)

Andrew

+1. I take my car out quite a bit locally and have yet to see more than 1 other LSX swap. I know there are a couple around town, but they are mostly on the forums where we all congregate.

Finish what you have if that if the easiest solution. Looks good.

critter

03-30-2009, 01:50 PM

Really? I guess that for once we're ahead of the curve here in Arkansas. That doesn't happen very often. ;)

rockytopper

03-30-2009, 02:10 PM

I went ls1 in my 65 cutlass no regrets. But I compared the cost of a 455 olds engine build with od trans and the cost for me was about the same to go ls so I did. Mainly cause my old olds would not start for sh... on cold days. And The EFI can't be beat. Sense you have already built a nice engine as is I say stick with it. Every efi system I looked at cost as much as my complete low miles ls1 and trans with almost every thing to make it run. FYI you don't have to have a sumped tank the stock tank works just fine.

surlyjoe

03-30-2009, 02:22 PM

well I went lsx after I spun a bearing in my pontiac. It made sense for my direction with the car. If my pontiac motor looked like yours it would still be in the car maybe with fuel injection maybe not. I've owned lots of carbed vehicles that I drove in all kinds of weather and only occasionally had one not start. Usually when it was a beater I had not maintained or tuned.

I don't see too many ls swaps but there will be more and more now that there complete kits out there. Hard to argue with cheap power.