Traction bars that wont hurt handling?

[CamaroJesse]

Im looking for a type of traction device such as slide a links or cal tracs or anything else to stop my wheel hop but not hurt my handling. i have dse leafs and hps bilsteins in back and had terrible hop until i put on slapper bars. i hate the slapper bars though. what else is out there to stop the hop but allow me to still road race and aut x with them.

thanks
Jesse

[chicane67]

A correctly made rear spring that is designed and built to actually have a "traction bar" built into it... maybe ??

Traction bars hurt it not matter what the design is... that is an unfortunate byproduct of using them.

To bad your leafs were not designed to anything other than a "lowering spring." Not to mention... that they are a little light in rate for road racing and autoX...Your only other recourse is to have the spring re-built and have the second leaf modified for just this issue.

[CamaroJesse]

Well i bought the dse leafs because i thought they were among the best out there. and i could have sworn that they said NO WHEEL HOP. I was pretty upset to find out my car hopped this badly after spending the 3 or 400 hundred on leaf springs. if these are no good what can i switch them out with? i lik ehow low the car sits but if they dont work well id like to swap them out for something better. whats good?

[ZZ427]

I'm going that route, I would like to know as well what other options we have .

[chicane67]

I think that you actually have about three viable options at this point.

1. Rebuild the leaf spring that you have and keep the costs down...

2. Global West's CAT5 leafs...

3. Custom leafs.


Depending on the current leafs... I would have a new main and second leaf made... one, to increase the rate and two, to change the second leaf out to a better design... which will stop the wheel hop without question.

Or... to keep the cost down, especially if you are happy with the ride quality... just replace the second leaf to a better design for the wheel hop issue.

This should be able to be done locally... at a spring shop and I dont believe that it would really cost you all that much.

[CamaroJesse]

where would i go to have the main and the second re done? and what rate should i try to achieve?

[chicane67]

I'd call Konan Spring over in Schaumburg and start from there.

If they dont have any leads... maybe Heidt's in Wauconda has a line on who builds springs in your local area. If not... I'm pretty sure Chicago Spring and Bumper should be able to take care of you.


You will however... need an idea of what you want. It will look something like this on the front half of the spring:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/CamaroRearLeaf1-1.jpg

Viola !! Instant traction bar... in stealth effect.

As far as spring rate... I believe all that I would do if I were you, is just have the second leaf made like the above picture. Specifically, the only difference will be in the front half of the spring... and the rear will remain the same length as it is on the exisiting leaf pack. The second leaf should be constructed in the same material thickness as it currently is. That will increase the rate effectively, very little... to keep your ride quality the same.

** Mind you that this specific design will only work with standard front spring eyes. With a center or reverse eye... it will be somewhat different. Obviously...


There has been a few discussions on this and other boards that deal with this very subject. Here are a couple in mind that cover this topic:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21267&highlight=spring+wrap

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43703&highlight=spring+wrap

[CamaroJesse]

Thats some great info! Theres a place called spring-align out of palatine. ill give them a call and see if they can help. They are right down the street from me. Hopefully they can do what i need. if not ill try out one of the places you suggested. I wish i had known this before i bought these junk DSE springs. Thats pretty cool that this is all i need to do to make it not hop anymore.

[David Pozzi]

Are you using spacers on your leaf springs? What shocks?
Have you talked with DSE?
Maybe something else is missing.
DSE has run a pretty good amount of horsepower through their springs with no issues, what's different with yours?
David

[68sixspeed]

Jesse- Dave has some good points- what's the rest of the setup- rear shocks, front springs/shocks, sway bar(s), etc.?

-Dan

[speED]

I agree, I have heard good things about DSE. Have you checked pinion angle???

[Roadrage David]

I run dse 2 inch drop leaf springs 1/2 inch drop plates. slide a link tracktion bars set on street mode . car has superb handling no wheel hop at all, having said that i run the dse mini tub kit as wel with 315 tires. just tested the car in a Time atack event.

[HILROD]

I upgraded my Hotchkiss springs, to DSE just to get rid of wheelhop. While it might have BARELY lessened, it did not stop. I have tried a few different shocks. It only happens on heavy acceleration. I'm minitubbed, lowered and run a rear bar, so my options are slim for bolt on devices. I'd rather not up the rear spring rate too much with the sway bar I'm running. I have a small bolt on deal that again lessens the hop now, but I think since I have a spring shop very local I'll give this a shot.

[CamaroJesse]

My setup up front (was) hotckis springs bilstein hps shocks but now im going to global west uppers and lowers, coil overs, and ats tall spindles. My setup out back is dse 3 inch lowering springs, bilstein hps shocks set up in back of the rear end, mini tubbed, no sway bar. no spacers.

[Lowend]

Are your rear shocks staggered or on the same side of the axle? If they are not staggered it could be contributing to the issue. Do you know your shocks are long enough... will the rear off the ground can the springs hang without bottoming out the shocks?
I would have a look at pinion angle as well.
You shouldn't be having huge traction issues with that setup.

[CamaroJesse]

I had the pinion angle set by a chassis shop so i would assume that is correct. The shocks are both on the rear of the axle and if the rear of the car is lifted the shocks do not bottom out. i thought it might be because of the way the shocks are set up but ive seen them set up like this on other cars.

[79T/Aman]

also what type of rear end do you have, open, locker limited slip?

[Lowend]

The first thing I would do is stagger the shocks. While it's not an end all be all it will help a lot.

[CamaroJesse]

i have a standard posi rear. im about to call dse to see if they have any ideas.

[CamaroJesse]

I just got off the phone with DSE. They said that the way my shocks are set up shouldnt be the problem. Hes betting that its the crappy radial ta tires i have on there. He said that id be surprised what some 18's will do for me. problem is, i cant afford 18's. So i guess the trac bars will stay on for now.

[Rick Dorion]

I need to decide on a rear setup myself. At this point it'll be leafs. I'm interested in what DSE says. I have a set like Chicane showed earlier (he designed them for a group purchase years back) but they're in the 230-240 rate range which is a bit stiff for my current setup.

[Lowend]

Radial T/A's ... barf those are just oversized station wagon tires.
Based on the tires, I'm assuming you are running 15"... Do you have the C5 brakes on the car now? How'd you get them to clear?

Just an FYI - you can get a set of Cragger Soft 8's (http://www.jegs.com/p/Cragar/754162/10002/-1)in 17x8 and 17x9 for less than $400/set
They are steel and HEAVY (which is why I don't run them). But if you are on super budget and want to be able to run good tires, they can be a solution.

[CamaroJesse]

No the c5 brakes and ats spindles arent on yet. they are just sitting under my bed. I just a got a new job so i will be buying new wheels in a few months but i still dont know if i want to spend the money on a 3 piece wheel. I might do Z06 wheels. 500 for wheels and 300 ish for adapters. much cheaper then a 3 piece. we'll see.

[chicane67]

I just got off the phone with DSE. They said that the way my shocks are set up shouldnt be the problem. Hes betting that its the crappy radial ta tires i have on there. He said that id be surprised what some 18's will do for me. problem is, i cant afford 18's. So i guess the trac bars will stay on for now.


It's kind of scary to actually hear someone... actually... say that.

The spring should work with 15's... right along with the way it should work with 18's. I guess what is being said is... the Radial TA's make too much traction for the spring to handle !??! And the way to solve your issue is to put on a shorter sidewall wheel and tire package so that its doesnt load the spring enough to make it wrap up !?!!

That. Is. Comical.

Why dont we just call a spade a spade... and chalk this up to being a spring of very poor design and that it doesnt do very well in controlling spring wrap. To make this even worse... is just think what will happen to the spring if you put on some stickies. Am I too believe that the above explaination also states that you should not run slicks !??!

The only thing else I could possible add is... that maybe you just dont make enough power to really load the spring enough that the tire will just spin and not gain any traction as to load the suspension.

Wow...

[CamaroJesse]

I thought it was kind of weird to hear that a radial t/a wouldnt want to spin too. They are junk. So im still skeptical. I probabaly had enough power to spin them. I had a 396 with high compression, worked heads, and a cam. And if not ill be making 550 horse this year. That outa be enough. But ill be doing 18's soon enough so i guess ill see what happens. either way i want this fixed.

[ZZ427]

Correct me if I'm wrong , 67 Camaros had the same wheel hop problem , GM fix it in 68 by using the staggered configuration and it helped . Does this means it a go for me to purchase the DSE 3" drop leafs ? By the ways thanks everyone , learning a lot in this site !

[SDMAN]

I havent played with leaf springs for at least a decade. Been all coil overs. But I do remember a mod Herb Adams recommended to get better geometry in the leaf. I have heard of this mod being referred to as the anti-squat mod. Basically, the goal is to get the geometry of the leaf spring mounting points to help plant the tires. If the geomerty of the rear suspension is wrong, I dont care what tire, spring or traction bar is on the car....it aint gonna hook when you put the power to it, assuming you have enough power to blow the tires off the car.

To see where your car is (as far as anti squat) requires you to have someone watch your car when you hit the throttle. Does not require a drag strip style launch. In situations where the geometry is WAY off, its obvious just tapping the throttle. If the backend of the car squats (drops down) at ALL under power....you have just found a big part of your problem. Think about it. Whats the opposite of that situation. If the back of the cars body is dropping, what is also happening is the rearend is beng pulled UP. Thus unloading the tires. Instant wheelspin. The goal is to have the back of the car rise under power. The opposite of that is, the car is pushing DOWN on the rearend. Now the tires are seeing additional weight (a good thing). Now better tires, better springs and a set of Cal-Tracs will actually make things better.

The mod went like this. Raise the front mount point of the leaf spring as high as possible. To do this requires cutting the top out of the bracket that the front of the leaf spring bolts into. You should be able to get it at least 1.00" higher. After doing this, the pinion angle will need to be re-set using wedges at the housing mounts.

I have long since tossed any drawings of dimensioned/detailed leaf spring geomety setup. So I cant provide that detail (maybe someone else can). But I can tell you this. Getting the suspension geometry right is a big deal. It cant be band-aided with parts. Period. Getting it right makes a HUGE difference in performance. A little time spent here pays big. But sadly, its almost always ignored.

[Kiwi Mal]

The mod went like this. Raise the front mount point of the leaf spring as high as possible. To do this requires cutting the top out of the bracket that the front of the leaf spring bolts into. You should be able to get it at least 1.00" higher. After doing this, the pinion angle will need to be re-set using wedges at the housing mounts.


I am going to do this mod on my 77 Firebird. From what I have read you raise the mounting hole 3/4", and no mention of having to reset the pinion angle. Do you only need to reset the pinion angle if you are raising the spring eye more than 3/4" ?.

[79T/Aman]

3/4 is the correct amount but yes you should also check and correct your pinion angle, it would not make sence to be ok with moving it 3/4" and not be ok with an aditional1/4" right?, just trying to help the thought process :)

[Kiwi Mal]

Thanks for the answer. It is from your catolouge that I read about it , but I have read it elswhere as well. Where can I find the information on correct pinion angle as I will be putting in the new 600hp 461 and Tremac TKO 600 once the engine gets here. I want to make sure I have it all set up right.
Cheers Mal

[79T/Aman]

well what happens is the spring wraps up under hard acceleration and this causes the pinion to go up and puts the U-joint in a bad angle, in many casses this is why the rear U-joint breaks, but the problem is when you raise the front eye of the leaf spring with the HA mod it makes the pinion go up as well agravating the problem, this is why it needs to be checked and corrected.
Depending on the leaf springs used and/or if you have traction device that limit spring wrap up dictates the pinion angle to set, if no traction bars or relativly soft springs are used your pinion angle should be about 4* down (it will come up as the springs wrap up), with better springs and/or traction devices you may reduce that amount to 2*, on leaf spring cars this needs to be done with angled shims.
Note that these are base numbers and fine tunning may be needed. BTW never run 0* it will cause vibrations in the drive line

[SDMAN]

If youre using stock rubber bushings in the springs/shocks, your pinion angle will be different than if youre using hard polyurethane. It will be a small amount (maybe 1/2 dergee), but it will be different.

Here is something to consider using that will really help to plant the tires. A pinion snubber. Remember the goal. We want the rear suspension to LIFT the back of the car when power is applied. When we get this lifting action, we also get increased down force on the rear tires. Way back in the 60's, Chrysler discovered that by placing an adjustable bump stop (adjustable in length) over the part of the rearend where the pinion gear is, their cars started hooking to the track a lot harder. Its a simple device, and is a very good piece to use on hi HP leaf spring cars. But given the way it works, you will want to have a strong mount installed that ties it into the rear structure of the car. Here is how it works.

When you hit the throttle, and the axles start to turn to push the car forward, the equal and opposite reaction (remember Newton?) is that the axle housing wants to turn the other way. If you look at your rearend from the side, the housing wants to rotate in the direction that will point the pinion gear UP. If you have a pinion snubber, set to the correct length, The rearend will contact the rubber cushion and push it UP. This lifts the back of the car and loads the tires. Simple, and it works. Mustangs are leaf spring cars, and they come from the factory with snubbers. Most of them opt for an aftermarket adjustable one. But the point is, they have leaf spring cars that currently use this 40+ year old technology. GM never had a clue.

You can buy good adjustable pinion snubbers from several sources in the neighborhood of $50-$85. Comp Engineering has a nice one. $82 in Jegs. But dont skimp on the mount. And that will be custom.

By the way, if you opt to go the pinion snubber route, you can sell those traction bars. You wont need them.

[CamaroJesse]

Well i was playing with the car today and realized that when i jack up the rear of the car but let the rear suspension hang, the shocks bottom out. its about a half an inch from not bottoming out. could this cause wheel hop? I wouldnt think so but who knows. I would think that once its all on the ground it wouldnt matter?

[Kiwi Mal]

Well, I am learning heaps here. Been a good thread all the way through. I have Hotchkiss Suspension & no traction bars on the car, Poly bushes and Gen 11 solid mounts. Rear wheels are 18"x10" and have Goodyear Eagle F1 GS D3 255/45zr18 tyres.
I will definatly check the pinion angle and look into the pinion snubber. I will see if I can find some pic's of the pinion snubber set up and see if I can make something up myself. Thanks for the info Guys.
Good luck with your set up Camarojesse.

Cheers MAL