View Full Version : Gm is all done...bankruptcy
toofun
03-05-2009, 05:19 AM
Deloitte and Touche pretty much sumed it up today. They said that the survival of GM is bleak without a MAJOR RESTRUCTURING. If you read between the lines BANKRUPTCY seems to be the ONLY option. You cant lose 57 thousand per minute, 24 hours a day and expect to come out of that. I dont care how big you are. Even GE who is LARGER than life, has billions in cash, and is still positioned to MAKE A PROFIT this year is in the single digits stock price wise.... BANKRUPTCY is the only option for GM. I can tell you one thing, you can kiss the new camaro, rs, z28 project goodbye! If they go bankrupt and the government gets involved, there is no way in hell that is going into production.....
Mark
TOOFUN
paulk68
03-05-2009, 05:46 AM
sad news for sure. i really really wish they kept the government out of it in the first place. pretty soon they are going to be telling us how to breathe.
wicked68
03-05-2009, 06:27 AM
sad news for sure. i really really wish they kept the government out of it in the first place. pretty soon they are going to be telling us how to breathe.
agreed - this has been a long time coming though
vintageracer
03-05-2009, 06:55 AM
Mabe NOW management will reallize the obvious!
Losing $30 BILLION last year did not seem to faze management.
JEFFTATE
03-05-2009, 07:05 AM
I work at a GM/Chevy Dealership.
I have to deal with corporate level bureaucracy and overly complicated crap all the time.
It saddens me to see GM doing things the same ,stupid way day after day.
They do things so complicated.
Anyway , it seems that the corporate level bigwigs are never gonna' change the way they do things.
They have their heads up their butts.
It's like watching the Titanic sink.....slowly.
Things are not going to get better for ANY American company , including GM , unless they change the way they do business.
Government Loans are only temporary.
We are gonna' be in the same mess again after the loan money runs out.
Mathius
03-05-2009, 07:08 AM
I work at a GM/Chevy Dealership.
I have to deal with corporate level bureaucracy and overly complicated crap all the time.
It saddens me to see GM doing things the same ,stupid way day after day.
They do things so complicated.
Anyway , it seems that the corporate level bigwigs are never gonna' change the way they do things.
They have their heads up their butts.
It's like watching the Titanic sink.....slowly.
Things are not going to get better for ANY American company , including GM , unless they change the way they do business.
Government Loans are only temporary.
We are gonna' be in the same mess again after the loan money runs out.
Good post. The problems are bigger than the big 3. You can't be a nation of service and survive. You can't keep sending all the money out of the country and not bringing any in. But I'm gonna keep my mouth shut because we wouldn't want things to get "political."
On another note, Bankruptcy doesn't mean GM is done. It just means they don't have to pay their debts.
Mathius
James OLC
03-05-2009, 07:40 AM
Government Loans are only temporary.
Not these loans I am afraid. It's looking like these loans will wind up being permanent...
JEFFTATE
03-05-2009, 07:52 AM
You can't be a nation of service and survive. You can't keep sending all the money out of the country and not bringing any in.
Mathius
Right !
We don't seem to make any products in this country anymore.
All we have is service and entertainment industry.( Restaurants , tattoo parlors , stripclubs , fake reality shows , NASCAR , wrestling , and MTV , to name a few. )
The main industry we have now is Urban Sprawl !!
But you can only cut down trees , build overpriced swim-and-tennis communities , and build shopping centers for so long.
Eventually it's gonna' pan out.
The upper management has been sending labor out of the country to make the bottom line profits look better to the board of directors and the stockholders. And to be more price competitive with the competition.
That's understandable , but the longterm effects are bad.
We've gotta' change the way we do things.
Steve1968LS2
03-05-2009, 08:12 AM
They need to just go Chapter 11 and reoganize.. that's what it will take.
jknight16
03-05-2009, 08:18 AM
I can tell you one thing, you can kiss the new camaro, rs, z28 project goodbye! If they go bankrupt and the government gets involved, there is no way in hell that is going into production.....
...And you would be wrong about that one thing. For one, the car is already in production. Not the Z28, but nobody said it would be. Going forward, the company will continue to operate and build Camaros under protection of Chapter 11 bankruptcy. That's the way Chapter 11 works. Feel free to put on your tinfoil hat if you wish, but that's the way the system works.
Mr.VENGEANCE
03-05-2009, 08:18 AM
wonderful.....
Damn True
03-05-2009, 08:45 AM
Good.
Now they just need to do it.
Ch 11 and the sooner the better.
JEFFTATE
03-05-2009, 09:04 AM
Good.
Now they just need to do it.
Ch 11 and the sooner the better.
I agree .
Mr.VENGEANCE
03-05-2009, 09:15 AM
is it official tho?
Damn True
03-05-2009, 09:26 AM
No, it's just Delloite saying there is no other viable alternative. I don't think Congress will be willing to let it happen though. Too many dirtbags in Washington (from both sides) have Union debts to repay.
Young Gun
03-05-2009, 10:12 AM
They need to just go Chapter 11 and reoganize.. that's what it will take.
exactly...but that seems to make too much sense... they are worried about people not wanting to buy a car from a bankrupt company... guess what, nobody is buying the cars anywho!
moreHP
03-05-2009, 10:18 AM
Dont worry about GM and bankruptcy. It doesnt mean they are finished if they do. Look at the airlines, they filed, restructured, and then got out of bankruptcy and back into profits. GM can do the same.
JEFFTATE
03-05-2009, 10:29 AM
I don't think Congress will be willing to let it happen though. Too many dirtbags in Washington (from both sides) have Union debts to repay.
True !
RaceMan
03-05-2009, 10:33 AM
Right !
We don't seem to make any products in this country anymore.
All we have is service and entertainment industry.( Restaurants , tattoo parlors , stripclubs , fake reality shows , NASCAR , wrestling , and MTV , to name a few. )
We've gotta' change the way we do things.
Flip over anything you've got near you and I bet it says MADE IN CHINA !!
It's going to be awhile before things change but thats whats got to happen!!!!
That my feeling .
silver69camaro
03-05-2009, 10:34 AM
Good post. The problems are bigger than the big 3. You can't be a nation of service and survive. You can't keep sending all the money out of the country and not bringing any in. But I'm gonna keep my mouth shut because we wouldn't want things to get "political."
On another note, Bankruptcy doesn't mean GM is done. It just means they don't have to pay their debts.
Mathius
The United States, which still has the #1 economy by far, exports more (in dollar amounts) than we import. We are not a nation of service.
youthpastor
03-05-2009, 10:54 AM
Is that true? interesting I didn't know that- what do we export?- I live in Tacoma and the main thing I see going out is Grain ships- most of the import stuff here that comes in is shoes- containers and containers of shoes!
parsonsj
03-05-2009, 11:13 AM
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/USTrade19912005-1.pngMatt,
Can you clarify? I found this chart on Wikipedia, which shows the US importing more than we export.
jp
The only thing the US exports more of than any other country is jobs. No way in hell we export more than we import.
James OLC
03-05-2009, 12:19 PM
The United States, which still has the #1 economy by far, exports more (in dollar amounts) than we import. We are not a nation of service.
Are you sue about that Matt?
From the US Census Bureau:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
It's been a long time since the US exported more than it imported.
poormans69
03-05-2009, 12:24 PM
Please let GM go bankrupt and get rid of the unions. There are plenty of people would love to have a $15 an hour job.
I would rather buy a car from a bankrupt company than one who has their hand out to big brother.
silver69camaro
03-05-2009, 12:32 PM
I'll find the article, I was pretty surprised when I read it too. Perhaps it was specific on a industrial sector, but I'm pretty sure it was an overall value. I'll report back.
Edit: It was in the Kiplinger letter a month or two back.
uhm, this is beyond scary.
Kind of ironic that China is at the top of the list (they MAKE EVERYTHING) and we are at the bottom of the list (we BUY EVERYTHING China makes.)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html
silver69camaro
03-05-2009, 12:55 PM
In the Kiplinger letter on December 19, 2008:
"At nearly $14 trillion, the US economy dwarfs every other. It's three times as large as the economy in Japan, which ranks second. GDPs for China, ranked third, and Germany, in fourth place...And it's tops not just overall, but in both services and industrial ouput. In 2005, US manufacturing output topped $1.7 trillion. In comparison, Japan cranked out $950 billion in manufactured goods, and China, about $780 billion".
I was wrong to state the exports are higher than the imported goods, but the letter does paint a bright picture of how massive our economy is (exports included). People are so easy to say the country is going to hell, when really, they don't know any better.
On a side note, if you don't read the Kiplinger letter already, give it a try. Lots of intelligent (and what appears to be) non-biased insight to financial desicionmaking. A must for business owners.
parsonsj
03-05-2009, 12:58 PM
People are so easy to say the country is going to hell, when really, they don't know any better.Thanks Matt, for the clarification. I agree: if you don't think Americans are the most fortunate humans on Earth, you need to travel around the world some more.
jp
bigvegan
03-05-2009, 01:00 PM
uhm, this is beyond scary.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2187rank.html (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html)
No, what's scary is what happens to the rest of the world when we STOP buying all their stuff.
No, what's scary is what happens to the rest of the world when we STOP buying all their stuff.
I understand. But there are 2 things you are overlooking.
1. Americans will NEVER stop wanting what China is selling. The price is too cheap. And our government can't MAKE us stop because....
2. China owns about $600billion in treasury securities. You stop all importing of Chinese goods, and China cashes in their securities, which would create a domino effect of other foreign debt holders cashing in. The US economy would be completely destroyed. Our current economic situation would look like a cake walk compared to the fallout if China wanted to cash out the securities.
bigvegan
03-05-2009, 02:13 PM
Our current economic situation would look like a cake walk compared to the fallout if China wanted to cash out the securities.
Unless we defaulted. We could bring the national debt down to zero and start fresh.
Sure, we wouldn't be able to sell bonds for a decade or two, and it might trigger WWIII, but imagine what America could do in terms of better government spending and/or lower taxes if we weren't using billions of tax dollars to service existing debt.
Vegas69
03-05-2009, 05:39 PM
The bottom line is, we can continue to be negative and feel sorry for ourselves until the end of time or deal with the cards we have been dealt and make the best of it. I know what I'm going to do. You make your own choice.
cluxford
03-05-2009, 06:24 PM
Albert Einstein: The Definition of Insanity. "Doing the same things yet expecting a different outcome".
Benjamin Franklin: "By failing to prepare we are preparing to fail"
It's sad to see companies that are the fabric of our society stumble.
But as many have posted here, no point dwelling on the past, it is what it is. Now is the time for courageous innovation. Leap frog the competition who are focused on incrementalism to eck out the best possible profit they can is a very subdued market. Every major economic downturn in the past 100+ years has seen the innovators come out the other side bigger, better and stronger than all of their competitors.
Does it take cash to innovate. No. It takes courage and that is all.
Caddy was the major auto innovator of the 1930's Great Depression. Some good lessons to be learnt there.
Vegas69
03-05-2009, 07:49 PM
Chris....I'd love to buy you a beer.:cheers:
Mathius
03-05-2009, 09:29 PM
Thanks Matt, for the clarification. I agree: if you don't think Americans are the most fortunate humans on Earth, you need to travel around the world some more.
jp
I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not saying that at all. In fact, American's are TOO fortunate. We live like fat cats and we have no concepts of needs vs. wants anymore.
Mathius
Turbo67camaro
03-05-2009, 09:35 PM
Setting aside all the politics, it all comes down to our need to create good paying jobs, plain and simple, and our failure to do so started this mess. This started because too many people can't afford the average home, car, etc..
As a country, we've done poorly for too many of the recent years, at creating lots of living wage jobs, and it caught up to us.
When too many people can't buy homes, cars, large ticket items, the economy machine plummets.
Cheers to GM for providing lots of good living wage jobs for a long time.
What makes me want to puke are the massive $ bailouts to AIG and bankers with little to no discussion with or intervention by the public. The door is wide open for the over-rated paper pushing bankers and insurors, but only cracked for companies that actually produce something like GM.
While one can virtually prove that outsourced manufacturing and labor overseas can reduce a single company's bottom line, we've collectively taken that too far without managing a balance in our standard of living. It is a case of seeking too much efficiency at the cost of collectively obliterating the spending power of your customer base by eviscerating their living wage.
Isn't it comforting that the same paper pushers that are ripping you off now, are going to be bosses of the same crowd that you've have to beg from to survive?
Isn't it comforting, that the paper pushers are providing huge cash infusions to the same paper pushers that trashed your living wage? It is like they are getting a bonus for ruining your life.
Isn't it comforting, that after destroying your income potential, that they're placing your near dead corpse into debt to pay for their mess?
Isn't it comforting, that even if innovators wanted to compete now in a high cost of entry market, that they couldn't because the paper pushers are giving their established competition government subsidies? Try starting a new car company or bank now. I wish you luck.
Welcome to socialism, paper pusher hell.
America needs to be careful what it wishes for, because we might just get it. If you act like a sheep, and people treat you like sheep, pretty soon you'll start thinking you're a sheep. The problem is, sheep make great targets, and no one is guarding the flock. We shouldn't count on the paper pushers to stop treating us like sheep, but at least we can stop acting like such easy marks.
We do need innovation, lots of it, but the paper pushers have stolen it, and we let them, and in many cases, asked them to.
Damn True
03-05-2009, 09:49 PM
You ever get offered a job by someone with no money?
Damn True
03-05-2009, 09:51 PM
I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not saying that at all. In fact, American's are TOO fortunate. We live like fat cats and we have no concepts of needs vs. wants anymore.
Mathius
Damn right. I worked my a$$ of for the privilege to do so and I will not, for one second allow myself to feel guilty for it.
Damn True
03-05-2009, 09:52 PM
Does it take cash to innovate. No. It takes courage and that is all.
It does take cash. Ideas and courage are neat. But nothing gets done without investment capital.
Dagger
03-05-2009, 10:04 PM
In fact, American's are TOO fortunate. We live like fat cats and we have no concepts of needs vs. wants anymore.
Mathius
While I wouldn't disagree with your statement as a general rule, I wouldn't lump every American into that category. There are plenty of Americans who know what it is to want and not have their basic needs met. They'd log on and tell us about it but they don't have computers or internet access!
cluxford
03-05-2009, 11:17 PM
It does take cash. Ideas and courage are neat. But nothing gets done without investment capital.
I'll expand what I meant....great ideas and the courage to pursue those ideas come first. Great ideas and the courage to chase them will always attract capital.
No amount of bail out money will save anything without the leaders being willing to step up and take risk on innovation.
If innovation were easy everyone would be doing it.
Chad-1stGen
03-06-2009, 01:26 AM
I agree with a lot of what's been said but can we honestly say this thread isn't political? Or as long as it's not a party debate we are good?
I'm normally annoyed with threads getting closed for any reason, especially political ones. However, I came here to read about some kick ass cars not get my blood boiling over the stupid decisions of our government.
Maybe my panties are in a bunch tonight /shrug
IBDMANN
03-06-2009, 04:29 AM
part of the problem is that americans buy foreign cars when the american alternatives are very high quality. I have bought two gm and one ford car in the last three years. There are plenty of imports I would have considered except supporting american workers was more important to me. When I look around and see all the imports i understand that americans really are not that much into the concept of american workers first. Go to japan and see what a pair of levis will cost you. it's very sad
Mathius
03-06-2009, 09:02 AM
Damn right. I worked my a$$ of for the privilege to do so and I will not, for one second allow myself to feel guilty for it.
:bsjerk:
And yet your answer to the rest of us who have worked our asses off and not achieved our goals is basically "tough sh*t".
People don't have a RIGHT to a job. They don't have a RIGHT to a given standard of living. And they sure as hell don't have the RIGHT to dictate to the rest of the American populace what ought to be done with their tax money to protect either.
You are supposed to educate yourself, find more lucrative employment and earn more. Or work more than one job.
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52709&page=4
Mathius
Mathius
03-06-2009, 09:04 AM
While I wouldn't disagree with your statement as a general rule, I wouldn't lump every American into that category. There are plenty of Americans who know what it is to want and not have their basic needs met. They'd log on and tell us about it but they don't have computers or internet access!
There's always going to be exceptions, but the majority of Americans take the things Parson was talking about for granted.
Most of us are guilty. I know I am. I could be more frugal with my money, but when I put in 40 hours of back breaking trade labor I feel like I should be allowed to enjoy my time away from work. Some people have other ideas about that.
Mathius
Damn True
03-06-2009, 09:05 AM
And yet your answer to the rest of us who have worked our asses off and not achieved our goals is basically "tough sh*t".
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52709&page=4
Mathius
Hey, you broke the code. Congrats.
The US Constitution assures equal rights to an OPPORTUNITY for success, there is no provision for equality of OUTCOME.
That last bit is up to you.
silver69camaro
03-06-2009, 09:11 AM
Boy, I sure did change the direction of this thread. Oops!
Mathius
03-06-2009, 09:12 AM
Hey, you broke the code. Congrats.
The US Constitution assures equal rights to an OPPORTUNITY for success, there is no provision for equality of OUTCOME.
That last bit is up to you.
Yeah well. Excuse me if I don't take your responses a little personal when I bust my ass at work every day, get laid off basically because I'm only 3 years into my training and then have someone like you who doesn't even know me basically say that nobody deserves to make what we make in a union job. And yet at the end of the day I still can't afford a house because gas is anywhere from $2-$4 per gallon and I have to drive to the work site every day uncompensated.
No, I'm not in the UAW.
Part of my "education" is the 5 year training I have to go through, but at the end of that when I'm making $30/hour, YOU say I don't deserve it.
I'm gonna step out of this thread before I get myself in trouble.
Mathius
TonyL
03-06-2009, 09:39 AM
I agree with a lot of what's been said but can we honestly say this thread isn't political? Or as long as it's not a party debate we are good?
I'm normally annoyed with threads getting closed for any reason, especially political ones. However, I came here to read about some kick ass cars not get my blood boiling over the stupid decisions of our government.
Maybe my panties are in a bunch tonight /shrug
It is a political discussion. You are correct sir. Thread over.
TOO many political type discussions lately. This board is meant as a safe haven from politics. a place to discuss our hotrods and hobby. let's keep it that way.
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