LSx oil drainback issue

[Damn True]

Didn't find another thread on the issue, but that could have been my fault for not using the correct terminology. If someone knows of an existing thread let me know and I'll move or delete this as appropriate.


Anyway.....as we know, one of the few weaknesses of the LSx is the oil system. The pan is easy to fix with products from ATS or Canton. An accusump couldn't hurt either and is pretty easy to install. But the drainback thing.......that kinda has me stumped. What if anything can be done to help with the fact that the oil has few and awkwardly located paths back from the top of the head to the pan?

[CarlC]

I removed casting flash from around the lifter returns, and drilled holes in the plastic lifter bodies. Drilling the hole on the upper section, bottom side, reduces the amount of oil buildup.

I was not comfortable at the time to increase the size of the main returns. Seems many say to do it, but few have, and no definate sizing answers.

I'll find out in a month or so if there are any road-coarse problems.

[chicane67]

... I guess I wont mention anything about the ARE systems stuff then...

Oops... to late.

[Damn True]

richard-tease

[monza]

I searched and searched I give up ... ARE systems??

[neki67]

Even when you add some other triggers, ARE is a bit generic for a real good search, isn't it?!

[chicane67]

You cats are killing yourselves...

>>> You all right meow ?? (http://www.drysump.com/) <<<

Spoiler: Not for the faint at heart.

[Damn True]

But does that address getting the oil out of the head?

[chicane67]

I believe that if it needed to be addressed... it would be on Gary's site. I myself, have yet to find any predicated factual evidence that it is an issue even with single stage systems on any given LS derivative. The talked about issues with oil return are not even an issue, even with the stock LS drysump in production. That, I believe is just another reason that the OEM made the decision to use such a system in a production package.

Most if not all oil return issues are solved with the typical block and cylinder head prep. Just like the 1st and second generation stuff... the sharp edges of the oil return passages are knocked off and the oil return in the cylinder heads are aligned. But however... one major factor to the return from the cylinder head is crankcase pressure.

In the typical wet sump there can be/is a lack of vacuum in the pan... mainly from blow-by/leakage at the rings, windage and poor ventilation. All of which merely add to the issue of oil return. With dry sump systems, there are a plethora of worthy effects that are/can be solved with a dry sump oil system. The key player to the oil return from the heads is an increase in natural pan vacuum from the suction side of the pump. So, one of the worthy side effects... the issue of oil return from the heads... is solved. Just another plus to running a dry sump...

Even the OE LS7 system has its limitations when thrown around on the track. ARE is... and has been... on the leading edge of simple dry sump solutions for the stuff that "we" are trying to do. That is one reason that Katech/Pratt&Miller utilize ARE.

Yeah yeah yeah... I know, it's just another expense. But... this one is easily justified.

I pretty much have a solution that will fit with either the OEM accessory drive or the Vintage Air system that will fit the factory stock sub-frame without modification. It's going to be nice to have AC with a multi stage dry sump... all in one neat package.

FYI: Katech on the other hand... has already created a solution with the OEM Y-body components and... the Dailey Dry Sump system.

[monza]

groovy- I was trying to ignore the thought of a dry sump. ARE is a informative site. yea thanks thanks alot for making me rethink oil pan?

[Damn True]

Dammit Tom. You are forever coming up with great ways to spend money.

How proud of the basic LS Stage I system are they?

Would a crankcase vacuum pump and an improved vent arrangement provide some mitigation for the problem that Steve had at Spring Mt.?

[chicane67]

Yeah... I know. I haven't even met Carl's Wife and I'm sure she wants to throw down too.

I guess it's time for some more of "Tom's theory of logic and common sense." Personally, I don't know about anyone else... but I'd rather spend my money once, and spend it wisely, than to spend it two or three times getting something right. I have lived and learned that all to well in this business.


So...the basic principals are this:

1. Life is short. When you decide to purchase something, purchase it right, purchase it once... and move on to the next.

2. If you don't have the financial means at the time... then you are not ready for it. Save up the cashola and refer to principal number 1.

3. You don't need the best of everything... you only need the best of the items that will cost you more money and time if you don't use your money wisely. Then refer to principal number 2.


And then... the supporting analogies:

1. When going to a gun fight, you don't need the largest caliber... you just need a gun that works... every-time.

2. You don't need to make the most power, you don't need to make the most torque... you just need to make "it" without braking anything.

3. You'll never get to use "it" if you don't build it so that your not always fixing it at the track... or on track weekends.


Seriously though... longevity, durability and reliability... are all by-products of logic and common sense. An LS3 with a cam swap and headers will make more than enough power for track days and serious street use. But... with what our cars are capable of... wet sump systems are at and/or beyond their limits. Even the stock LS7 system is getting into dangerous territory when you put them on the track. The stock OE LS7 pump just does not have enough scavenging... and thankfully, Katech is working on a pump that will produce another 30% scavenging. That at least will help... but how close or how soon will you be to that limitation in the future ??

OK. Dry sump wins.

Would a CCVP and/or better ventilation help ?? It most certainly would. The ventilation, I think, more-so than the CCVP at this point. I didn't really have anytime to diagnose the cause of the issue at Spring Mountain. But... it could have been a number of things. Considering that the engine had like 500 miles on the ticker... it could have been blow-by from the rings not being all the way seated. I don't know... i would have liked to pull a plug or two... but it was more of a hasty 'damage control' situation in between rounds.

FWIW... the "Stage one" system is basically just an oil pan... which doesnt fit into a first gen subframe.

The "Stage two" system is an oil pan (which doesnt fit into a first gen sub frame), an oil tank and a oil filter relocation mount.

The "Stage three" system is an oil pan... that DOES fit a first gen sub frame, an oil tank, an oil filter relocation mount, a breather/catch can, an external single stage (with options up to five stages) scavenge pump, an ATI Super Damper and all related hoses and fittings. Oh yeah... and the best part... is the three stage (one pressure, two scavenge)... with... WITH... externally adjustable oil pressure.

Prices start at around $850 and go up from there. The three stage system... mind you of what it includes is a deal... runs about $2700.

[CarlC]

Yeah... I know. I haven't even met Carl's Wife and I'm sure she wants to throw down too.

Nah, she's much to subtle for that. She has a noose made from broken purse strings with your name on it.

[Bow Tie 67]

What about a good pcv system with an oil accumulator and aftermarket oilpan as a budget minded solution?

[monza]

I pretty much have a solution that will fit with either the OEM accessory drive or the Vintage Air system that will fit the factory stock sub-frame without modification. It's going to be nice to have AC with a multi stage dry sump... all in one neat package.

FYI: Katech on the other hand... has already created a solution with the OEM Y-body components and... the Dailey Dry Sump system.

So this solution that works with Vintage Air is your solution something ARE is not yet providing?

[parsonsj]

Ouch.

This thread hurts. I don't want to tell you guys how much time I've got in my headers to clear the original C5 "batwing" pan.

jp

[Bow Tie 67]

I would like to know when this is considered mandatory? 20 min session, 30 min, running a sustained high G circle for hours on end? Is cornering the only time we need to worry, or are extended high rpm blasts just as nasty? Also I have read that an extra quart can be added as insurance.

[chicane67]

So this solution that works with Vintage Air is your solution something ARE is not yet providing?

What I have ascertained thus far is... actually four different ways to greatly improve even the OE LS7 dry sump system. the reality is... that any one of these options will greatly improve upon the objective.

Concerning the Vintage Air front runner system... there are a couple of ways to accomplish this. The route you go depends will be dependent on the sub frame. One system uses the stock AC bracket and idler, but it does not clear the stock sub frame. It may work for other aftermarket sub frames and possibly even the majority of custom sub frames... but it is really dependent on the distance between the frame rails.

The second, uses a direct 'bolt to block' pump... which should allow up to a three section pump with the ATS engine plates... which is the system that I am working on. With what I am going to do with my chassis... I want control over the oil pressure... and the three section pump will provide you just that.

All that is really needed for the Vintage Air front runner to work with the stock sub frame... is the addition of the correct hub for the damper. There are a bunch of options for the hubs... Gilmer, HTD, Serpentine... and you can either have the hub drive the actual accessory drive or you can have it damper driven (like the OEM.) At this time I haven't figured out how much of an under drive I can get away with... and if I would rather have it hub or damper driven.


The other two options will depend on what accessory drive you are using... and if you want to run AC or not. The OE accessory drive minus the low mount AC is pretty straight forward and really easy to do. The system uses a cylinder head mount pump, that is actually driven off of the cylinder head belt tensioner with a trick little HTD drive. There is also a block mount available... which is where I originally got my idea from, but with tweaks to get to fit with the ATS engine plates.


The scavenge only systems by far are much easier to package and don't seem to be a problem with spacial issues until you go to a three section pump. These allow you to externally scavenge in a single or multiple sections... and keep the stock pump for the pressure side. This means that you can actually use the optional one section pump to just scavenge... or... the two section pump, one scavenge / one pressure, and ditch the OEM front mount oil pump... and have an external oil pressure adjustment... or the three section pump... etc etc.

[chicane67]

I would like to know when this is considered mandatory? 20 min session, 30 min, running a sustained high G circle for hours on end? Is cornering the only time we need to worry, or are extended high rpm blasts just as nasty? Also I have read that an extra quart can be added as insurance.

Ill take this quote to put a mandate on when it should be considered:


The ARE (and other) LS7 dry sump system are designed for vehicles that exceed the cornering capability of the factory Z06 such as cars with coil-overs and slicks.

So... if you are in that neighborhood of performance... I would guess so. Hell... even Penny killed a ZR1 at Spring Mountain. So it's not too hard to put yourself into questioning this issue.


Now... what does the amount of time have to do with the equation ?? 30 seconds would be just as bad as hours on end... considering that if you have the problem at thirty seconds, it wont be around for anything hours on end.

Cornering and high RPM blasts are one in the same. The main issues is scavenging the oil out of the pan... and getting it into the tank so that it can continue to feed the beast. Adding a quart doesn't get you too much... if you cant get it back out of the pan and direct it to where it needs to be.

[Bow Tie 67]

What about an accumulator?

[chicane67]

Same thing... all that does is inject oil into the system... but does nothing to get it out.

The problem isnt with delivery... it's with the extraction. What you end up with is all the oil in the pan (which is a windage problem) and you don get it back to the tank fast enough for it to properly supply the pressure side of the equation.

[Bow Tie 67]

Now I'm confused, I thought the initial problem was getting the oil to drain back from the upper end. And if to much oil stays up top in a high rpm or high G situation the pickup may suck air. Now if you enter a pan that has more available oil it should take longer, albeit not much longer, to suck the system dry. Any idea on how much oil can be suspended with a severe windage problem? or how much the LSX engines hold up top when pushed?

edit: After rereading your post I'm starting to understand. Although if its a windage problem how will a dry sump prevent that? wait: is the definition of windage when the rotating assy not only whips the oil into a mist but also pulls, or almost creates a vacuum pulling oil up from the pan?