Mark VIII & SPAL V3

[85_SS]

Is anybody using a Mark VIII fan with a SPAL V3 controller? I know the Mark VIII can draw some serious current, and I see the SPAL's highest fuse rating is only 30A. Is it safe to install a higher amperage fuse without fear of damaging the controller? What fuse do you use if you have this same setup?

I know the new model has built in protection for overcurrent, but I just want to make sure it's capable of operating with the high power Mark VIII fan.

[FULMNTE]

I will be using that exact setup, waiting for delivery of the fan right now. If you do a search on this site, the Spal PWM is good for 50A and you can safely use a 40 A fuse. The Mark VIII draws 33 A at full load...

[85_SS]

Thanks for the reply. I have read that, but just wanted to confirm this from people that have actually used the setup that the in rush of the Mark VIII isn't too much for the controller to handle (I've read anywhere between 70-120A). Sounds like gmachinz uses this setup almost exclusively though, so I assume it's fine.

Any suggestions on where to buy a standard size fuse rated at 40A? The largest I could find was 30A - looking online, it looks like The Source (Radio Shack) might carry some.

[FULMNTE]

I did get a whole box of 40A fuses at NAPA. Maybe they don't carry them all time?
The PWM controller will make the Mark VIII fan switch on with 50% power only and then ramp up to 100% as needed. That should help reduce the initial Amperage spike, I hope!

[85_SS]

Yes, the 50% start on the new V3 models should keep that spike down quite a bit. The old models used to give a 100% kick to get the fans moving, which defeated a large advantage of having a PWM controller.

Thanks, I'll check my local NAPA for the fuses - IIRC it was Canadian Tire that I had looked at before.

[85_SS]

I'll have to play with it more, but so far - not good. The fan will run for a short while, then kick off and flash an error code #2 (fan not recognized). The last time I tried it last night it was flashing what I believe was a code 2, followed by a code 4 (over current).

The controller is designed to turn off if there is a 25A draw after a certain amount of time... which is not going to be uncommon with the Mark VIII fan. In short I don't think it's going to work, in which case I will go with a simple relay setup with perhaps an adjustable t-stat switch.

[FULMNTE]

Did you try to use the low speed wire of the fan (middle) and run it with that?
My plan is to wire the high-speed wire through a separate 75 A relay switch through the PWM...

[Chad-1stGen]

Only the early model Mark VIII fans had two speeds. I'd say the majority of Mark VIII fans on the market will have two power terminals but both are "high" speed.

[FULMNTE]

So this famous info that is alll over the internet is wrong?

93-96 use p/n F3LY 8C607 A @ 245.80
The 93-96 spin 1100 rpmson low and 1850 on highspeed.

97's use p/n F7LZ 8C607 AB @ 196.23
98's use p/n F8LZ 8C607 AA @ 140.11
The 97-98 spin 1800 on low and 2225 on high.

http://www.dfwstangs.net/tech/markviii_fan/markviii.html

[Chad-1stGen]

I've read here on this site many times that people don't have 2 speed Mark VIII.

The Mark VIII fan I personally bought also goes the same exact speed no matter which terminal you use.

[FULMNTE]

oh ok, guess I will have to see what version I have once I wired it up...

[Vegas69]

Take a battery and two wires and you have it figured out.

[85_SS]

My Mark VIII works off both terminals, but I am unable to tell if they are actually different speeds (the wire gauge is heavier on one connector though, which would lead me to believe that is a high speed wire) since the SPAL won't run them long enough to tell.

In short, I don't believe the SPAL V3 can handle the current draw of a Mark VIII fan. Here's some info for those interested:

It's still relatively cold here, so if I start the car and let it warm up with the fan connected, the fan will kick on at the required time and maintain engine temp at what is surely 50% fan speed or slightly higher. However, if the engine is turned off even for a few seconds and the temps climb a touch, when I try to restart the car, the fan comes on, tries to ramp up to an appropriate speed somewhere between 50%-100% and kicks off after a few seconds. Sometimes it will spit out a code 2 (fan not recognized), and other times it will give a code 2 & 4 (fan not recognized & overcurrent).

I was leary of whether or not it would work as we all know how much current this fan draws, but I know Jabin here uses this setup almost exclusively, so I figured I'd be ok. The manual states the controller will kick off if the fans draw >30A for more than a specified amount of time (ie allow for spike at ramp up only), so I can't see how this controller could ever handle the Mark VIII. It looks like I'll have to just sell the SPAL and go with a simple t-stat/relay setup.

[FULMNTE]

So which wire do you use for the SPAL unit, heavy gauge or lighter gauge?
Are you using a SPAL temperature sensor?

The earlier SPAL units did not have the overcurrent protection, this is new with Version 3. I find it hard to believe that the MarkVIII fan pulls more than 30 Amps continously at 50-60% load, when the reported 100% load is 33 Amps

If Version 3 does not work, maybe you can use the brown wire to trigger a 70 Amp relay. Then the SPAL unit at least is still a temperature on/off controller...

[85_SS]

I've wired it with both the positive wires - seemingly no difference in how it acts either way.

You could have the SPAL control a relay as you've mentioned, but if you are going to do that, I'd just get a temp switch or adjustable thermostat and remove/sell the SPAL controller. Leaving it in place makes for an awefully cumbersome and expensive temp switch.

It's the grey wire you'd want to use for that purpose - the brown wire is for a status output (to an LED).

[FULMNTE]

The gray wire only kick in at the high temperature setting, the brown wire (status light) kicks on at low temp setting

I will let you know what happens with my setup once I get it going...

[85_SS]

Yes, but if you are only using it as a switch to turn on a relay, it doesn't matter as you would only have one temp setpoint.

That being said, I don't think either way would work since the controller would spit out an error code (#2) with no fan connected directly to it. This would cause the status light to blink... and in turn make your fans turn on and off with the blinking light. If you connected another small fan directly to the controller, and used the Mark VIII as your secondary fan, you could make it work, but that would be an odd setup.

So your only real options (if it doesn't work for you either) is to find another way to control the Mark VIII, or get another fan. Please do post back with your results once you get a chance to try it out :)

[FULMNTE]

Good point
I will let you know what happens with my setup

[woody80z28]

I've had a lot of issues with my SPAL controller. How do you tell which version you have?

[85_SS]

I've had a lot of issues with my SPAL controller. How do you tell which version you have?

Join the club...

The new V3 model is much larger than the older models. I'm not sure how to tell the difference between the first two versions, but I think the wiring differed slightly. I went through two of the older models. I don't think there is anything wrong with my V3 model, it just can't handle the current pull of a Mark VIII fan. For reference, I borrowed a clamp-on meter from work and at 12V (car off) high speed pulls around 80A in-rush and 21A running. Low speed pulled 52A in-rush and 12.5A running.

V3 model:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Older model(s):
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[FULMNTE]

Well,

After talkeing to SPAL online trying to figure out how to wire in a high-speed bypass, it will need 3 external relays to get this done.
So I chickened out and ordered one of these new DIF PWM Controllers. It has everything I want and handles 50 amps continous load.

Anyone wants to buy a never run SPAL V3 unit?

[85_SS]

Well at least they responded to you... I still haven't heard back. I'll likely be selling my SPAL V3 as well.

[Chad-1stGen]

Who makes or what is the DIF PWM controller?

[85_SS]

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess he's talking about DC Controls - I had one of those years ago and it died after getting caught in a light rain. Their customer service was terrible as well - I waited over 3mo (ignored emails and empty promises) for a replacement before finally asking for a refund instead.

I usually try to "keep it simple" and it seems to be the way to go with fan control. Relays generally never die, and controllers seem to be extremely flaky from my experiences. I've had three die on me altogether - the one DCC unit, and two early model SPAL units (one stopped working, one stuck on 100% all the time).

[woody80z28]

I spent $200 on SPAL crap and have never had it work right, it's definitely the older version. My $10 HD relay works like a champ though.

[FULMNTE]

Not DC, this one
http://www.frsport.com/DIF-Universal-PWM-Fan-Controller-Variable-Speed---Introductory-Price--_p_10337.html

[claytonisbob]

Im running a Mark VIII Fan with a 70amp relay and a PAC-2700. Works perfectly. Probably a little over kill actually. I got it thinking I could wire the fan to two speeds (which I later found out you can't) If I ever replace the fan though, I'll do dual fans and the controller can change the turn on times to each fan indiviually.

The controller:
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=641/prd641.htm

The relay:
http://order.waytekwire.com/productdetail2/M37/75552/POWER%20RELAY/

[85_SS]

Some Mark VIII's are two speed - I have bench tested mine and it is indeed a two speed fan, so I will be wiring it that way. Here's some options for both single and two speed wiring:

http://www.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_miscellaneous/49d0d3fd64927/FAN_1-speedjpg_Thumbnail1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/FAN_1speedjpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg


http://www.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_miscellaneous/49d0d42f30006/FAN_2-speed_5-polejpg_Thumbnail1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/FAN_2speed_5polejpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg


The following is only required because of the draw of a Mark VIII fan on high, and the fact it's nearly impossible to find a 5-pin 70A+ relay:
http://www.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_miscellaneous/49d0d41912c3b/FAN_2-speed_4-polejpg_Thumbnail1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/FAN_2speed_4polejpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg

If anybody wants a better quality pdf/jpg, I could send a copy.

[LSX1STGEN]

Check out Delta controller. Best around with variable speed...

http://www.dccontrol.com/0820.htm

[85_SS]

Check out Delta controller. Best around with variable speed...

http://www.dccontrol.com/0820.htm


...DC Controls - I had one of those years ago and it died after getting caught in a light rain. Their customer service was terrible as well - I waited over 3mo (ignored emails and empty promises) for a replacement before finally asking for a refund instead.


Just as unreliable as SPAL from my experience, only with worse customer service.

[shep]

Anyone ever looked at a speed controller for a robot. http://www.myskunkworks.net/servlet/the-Electronic-Controllers/Categories or http://www.robotpower.com/products/osmc_info.html they are not plug and play but should be able to handle any fan you can come up with.

[FULMNTE]

Check out Delta controller. Best around with variable speed...

http://www.dccontrol.com/0820.htm

I have checked them out before. I am just not a big fan of in-radiator temperature sensors.... Hence I will give the DIF controller a try...

[85_SS]

After finding out that the Mark VIII fan was too much for the SPAL V3 to handle, I decided to scrap the whole controller idea and make up my own harness/diagrams for a hopefully trouble free system. I designed it so that it operates much like an electric fan in newer cars. It also has a high speed manual override switch, as well as feedback through a single RGB LED for the various states (high/low/AC).

Here's the final schematic and wiring diagram I designed:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/FAN_FINAL_SCHEMATIC_1jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/FAN_FINAL_DIAGRAM_1jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg

Mark VIII fan installed:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/100_2370jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/100_2371jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/100_2372jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg


Relays/custom harness wired up and ready to go:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/100_2411jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/100_2412jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg
(figured I may as well make use of the Maxi-fuse holder from a painless 70A wiring kit I decided not to use)


Relay rack fits nice and snug next to battery (one more relay was added for proper LED control due to fan motor feedback on opposite speed):
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/100_2419jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg


And finally here's the LED in the different stages (mounted at manual override switch/temp gauge):

Off:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/tn_full_100_2432jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg

Low Speed:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/tn_full_100_2433jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg

High Speed:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/tn_full_100_2434jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg

A/C:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/tn_full_100_2435jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg

It will be nice to finally have a trouble free, fully operational fan setup - beats the unreliability of these worthless controllers out there!

[Declawed69]

This thread is awesome! Would be great for a how to section, lots of good info.

Thank you for saving me from buying a spal controller for a mkVIII fan.

[85_SS]

Not a problem, I had to go through it anyways in order to decide what I wanted to do, and figured I may as well share as I know a lot of people like to use this fan.

[85_SS]

Due to the unexpected operation of the Hayden controller with the engine off, I have made one final change to the diagram so that the fan will only run with the car on.
What was happening is the fans would run for a minute or two when the car turned off (as expected and designed for). I expected this might happen 2-3 times as the coolant would increase in temp again a few times once the fan stopped. This did happen, but the odd part was after a while the controller would call for the fan to be on for a split second every minute or so and this went on basically until the car naturally cooled down. This wasn't good for the battery and left me with just enough juice to crank the car over a couple times. I didn't like the idea of possibly getting stranded with a dead battery, so I made a minor change that only allows the fan to run with the ignition on:

http://www.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_mark_viii_electric_fan/4a246fa0d5310/FAN_FINAL_SCHEMATICjpg_Thumbnail1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/FAN_FINAL_SCHEMATICjpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg

http://www.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_mark_viii_electric_fan/4a1d21b694e10/FAN_FINAL_DIAGRAM_1jpg_Thumbnail1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/FAN_FINAL_DIAGRAM_1jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg

On a side note, regarding how to tell the difference between the 1 and 2 speed Mark VIII fans, I put this quick image together for reference:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/12_SPEED_MARK_VIIIJPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg

[zman1969]

this needs to be stickied! good job guys! :smoke: