C4 Caliper/11 rotor?

[Ishmael]

Would a C4 caliper work with an 11 rotor? That's what the Baer serious street fronts look like to me. I'm also wondering if C4 calipers wouldn't have more clearance on wheels like TTII's and AR200s. I've been getting an education on brakes from you guys over the last week and its been great.

[Apogee]

C4 calipers are quite small by comparison to the C5/C6 components as well as most other aftermarket options. There are C4 kits with 12" rotors that supposedly work with some 16" wheels, so it's quite possible that they'd work with larger diameter wheels with well known brake clearance issues like the TTII's and AR200's. I would think that those calipers on 11" rotors might be compatible with many 15" wheels...have you gotten the fitment templates from Baer to confirm?

Keep in mind that the offset of the rotor also plays a large part in the fitment equation. This is why there are big-brake kits using C5/C6 calipers and 13" HD C4 rotors which have about .41" additional offset relative to the later C5/C6 rotors. Granted, they're also 4mm thinner so the additional wheel clearance certainly doesn't come for nothing.

Tobin
KORE3

[Ishmael]

The good thing about this site is that there are so many experts that help out like you and Mike. Maybe you can point me in the right direction. I really want to run 200s on my firebird. I was planning a C5 caliper, C4 rotor front brake set up with the help of a few guys on the site. I would like to run that setup but I'm not locked to it. I've got an in at a parts store so I can get good parts cheap and I want to do this myself other than the brackets - with everyones advice of course. I don't have the a pair of 17" 200s so I can't measure them for clearance but I know the old ones (14"ers) were designed to accept disc brakes. Could you steer me in the right direction for a home brewed big brake set up that will clear the 200s? I've seen a baer serious street kit behind 200s.

[Apogee]

Best way to home-brew it is to have the wheels in front of you...until you've got those or the critical dimensional information, you're sorta pissin in the wind. Once you've got wheels and/or dimensions, you select your preferred caliper (which you've done), find a compatible rotor that positions the caliper appropriately far inward to avoid any wheel issues and yet not so far that it cause other issues inboard, and then design your bracket.

Sounds simple and in theory it is. Making it happen sometimes is a whole different story though.

Tobin
KORE3

[novaderrik]

C4 calipers are quite small by comparison to the C5/C6 components as well as most other aftermarket options. There are C4 kits with 12" rotors that supposedly work with some 16" wheels, so it's quite possible that they'd work with larger diameter wheels with well known brake clearance issues like the TTII's and AR200's. I would think that those calipers on 11" rotors might be compatible with many 15" wheels...have you gotten the fitment templates from Baer to confirm?

Keep in mind that the offset of the rotor also plays a large part in the fitment equation. This is why there are big-brake kits using C5/C6 calipers and 13" HD C4 rotors which have about .41" additional offset relative to the later C5/C6 rotors. Granted, they're also 4mm thinner so the additional wheel clearance certainly doesn't come for nothing.

Tobin
KORE3
i had a home brewed 12" C4 setup on the front of my 71 Nova that used disc spindles and the drum hubs.
they fit inside the 16" GTA wheels i was running with a lot of room to spare- almost enough to make me attempt to fit the C4 13" setup on there if i wouldn't have traded the car away.
for a while before i got the GTA wheels, i was running early 70's Z/28 15X7 steel wheels over those brakes and they also cleared with about 1/4" at the closest spot to the caliper. i tried an early 80's 14" Cutlass rally wheel in the fitment phase of the build just becasue it was in my shop, and it damn near cleared, too. a little bit of clearancing around the outside of the caliper would have gotten me 12" brakes behind a stock 14" wheel, but i don't like 14's and didn't want to grind on my shiny new calipers just to get it to fit.

[Randy67]

Another option is the front caliper from a 99-04 mustang V6 & GT. It is a 2-piston PBR caliper with 43mm pistons (going from memory here) on a 11-rotor. It fits 15 inch wheels no problem.

[Ishmael]

Now that I've seen the mustang caliper, I wonder, what's teh difference between it and a c4 caliper and a baer serious street caliper? They all look alike to me. Is PBR a company? Forgive my ignorance but if this is the case then a C4 caliper should work on an 11' rotor and tuck into period wheels like the baer setup. Does anybody make a bracket for a c4/mustang setup? Could I turn down my hubs or would I have to purchase something?

[Apogee]

Yes, PBR is a Tier 1 automotive parts supplier specializing in brakes and providing GM with the bulk of their OE braking solutions as well as other OEMs.

PBR also supplies aftermarket companies, such as Baer, with their C4 and C5/C6 based calipers as well. Aside from the logo on the face of the calipers, the Baer Serious Street caliper is a C4 Corvette caliper.

The C4 and 4th gen Mustang calipers are very similar, although they are different. From memory, the C4 has twin-38mm pistons and the Mustang a twin-43mm pistons. Castings may be the same, but there were gravity cast versions as well as pressure case versions like those that came on the 1996 C4 Grand Sport editions.

As for your hub question, that would depend on which car in your signature you're working on. If the '68 has drum hubs, then you could probably use those as a good starting point. If you're working on the second gen F-body, most choose to either run a modified hub/rotor or purchase aftermarket hubs in order to minimize the track width change.

Tobin
KORE3

[Tito]

FWIW, here are some picture pages (care of Car Craft) of the Baer Serious Street getup:
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/baer_brakes/index.html

This LOOKS like a stock rotor/hub setup with a PBR caliper fitted up. So in theory, you could make up your own bracket to perform similarly (although there sure isn't much room between the knuckle and the caliper in those pics). You almost definitely would want to use the LS1 (or mustang?) calipers w/ twin 43mm pistons. Twin 38mm pistons + 11" rotors is gonna need a really tiny master cylinder and very high working pressures.

Of course, at the end of the day, you'll have calipers with less total piston area than stock, so you'll still want a smaller master cyl. You might pick up some pedal feel, but I doubt this would be hugely different for brake performance...

[Ishmael]

Thanks Tobin,
Its for the 68. The 74 has to wait until my son is old enough to turn a wrench but if I come across something for it in the meantime it doesn't hurt.
Since the mustange piece has bigger pistons, one would think it would be the better piece. Yet it should mount to the same brackets. It wouldn't be as good as the C5 but it would clear some rims that the c5's don't such as the AR 200s. Or I could quit screwing around, do the c5/c4 setup and run a spacer.
This is just for street use. I just don't want to run into an SUV with better brakes. I also want to run the 200s although the touring classics c5 hybrid template and the info the guys at Newstalgia gave me lead me to believe that I would need the spacers. C5's with a spacer or C4 without?

[Ishmael]

Thanks Tito,
I guess the master spec'd for the baer setup would work for the c4 but I haven't crossed that bridge for any of the three setups. I don't know what booster and master would work for me. I want to find something from the parts store that looks stock.

[Skip Fix]

So how do those Baer calipers mount to their brackets?? The Corvette GTO calipers have small bolts/rubber cushions don't see where they are on Baer calipers.

[Apogee]

So how do those Baer calipers mount to their brackets?? The Corvette GTO calipers have small bolts/rubber cushions don't see where they are on Baer calipers.

The C4/Mustang calipers is what PBR calls a pad-guided caliper mounting system since the caliper is literally floating on the pads. There are spring clips on the pad backing plates the lock into either the pistons or the face of the caliper body, hence the two holes. The pads themselves are held into the pad abutment brackets by the physical geometry of the pad back plate on one end and a retainer pin and clip on the other end.

The later, and in my opinion, superior C5/C6 design is what PBR calls a pin-guided caliper mounting system since the calipers are attached to pins that slide into the pad abutment brackets. It removes the need to retain the pads into the abutments with a funky little pin and makes installation and maintenance much easier, not to mention allows the calipers to float much more freely and precisely.

Tobin
KORE3

[Ishmael]

Best way to home-brew it is to have the wheels in front of you...until you've got those or the critical dimensional information, you're sorta pissin in the wind. Once you've got wheels and/or dimensions, you select your preferred caliper (which you've done), find a compatible rotor that positions the caliper appropriately far inward to avoid any wheel issues and yet not so far that it cause other issues inboard, and then design your bracket.

Sounds simple and in theory it is. Making it happen sometimes is a whole different story though.

Tobin
KORE3
Making it happen could be monumental for me. I'm trying to get the measurement on the wheel. Someone told me from memory that it was about 7/8ths. Which means it won't clear the hybrid set up of Touring Classics according to their template if I'm reading it right. Since everybody seems to agree the C5 caliper is the best choice for various reasons, which rotor is going to move the caliper in the most and who makes a bracket for it?

[Apogee]

Making it happen could be monumental for me. I'm trying to get the measurement on the wheel. Someone told me from memory that it was about 7/8ths. Which means it won't clear the hybrid set up of Touring Classics according to their template if I'm reading it right. Since everybody seems to agree the C5 caliper is the best choice for various reasons, which rotor is going to move the caliper in the most and who makes a bracket for it?


If you look at the Touring Classics Hybrid template (http://www.touring-classics.com/Templates/hybrid.PDF) then you'll see that the overhang dimension is only .11" versus ~.78" for the C5/C6 kits using a C5/C6 rotor per our templates. I am fairly sure that the T-C Hybrid kit is compatible with the A/R wheels you listed originally, assuming you're looking at running 17's or larger and aren't looking to home-brew your own brake concoction.

I think you may have moved the direction of the conversation the wrong way when you mentioned C4 calipers and 11" rotors and home-brew...and 14" wheels. You might want to give Noel at T-C a call as I bet he can answer any questions you may have about his Hybrid C4HD/C5 kits.

Tobin
KORE3

[Skip Fix]

Still be neat to use a C4 or C5 caliper on the 1LE 12" rotor. Better offset for wheels also.

[Ishmael]

I thought I had looked at the hybrid template. I don't know how I screwed that one up. Its good to know there it has been done correctly but I still want to try to put together a set up here. With the 11 inch rotor question I was trying to figure out a way to get maximum clearance in case I figured out a way to use the rims I have until I could get the rims I want when I can better afford them thus getting the car back on the road instead of having to buy everything all at once.
Its good that TC has them. Now I know it can be done. I still want to do it myself if possible as by the time I pay shipping, exchange and duty(about 15% of the exchanged price) it will add literally hundreds of dollars to the total. I've already priced out calipers and rotors at the cost plus 10 that I pay at a parts store locally and it makes more sense for me to do it this way.
I'm not trying to be a jerk or cheap. I appreciate all the advice and info I can get. I just want to get my car back on the road in a safe way that I can afford. If I could afford to buy kits from anyone on this site I would because it would be a whole lot easier. I know I'll be buying brackets from someone from here. Again I appreciate all the info and advice. I've been bouncing back and forth with Nole for awhile trying to get a hold of each other. I'm going to give him a call right now.



If you look at the Touring Classics Hybrid template (http://www.touring-classics.com/Templates/hybrid.PDF) then you'll see that the overhang dimension is only .11" versus ~.78" for the C5/C6 kits using a C5/C6 rotor per our templates. I am fairly sure that the T-C Hybrid kit is compatible with the A/R wheels you listed originally, assuming you're looking at running 17's or larger and aren't looking to home-brew your own brake concoction.

I think you may have moved the direction of the conversation the wrong way when you mentioned C4 calipers and 11" rotors and home-brew...and 14" wheels. You might want to give Noel at T-C a call as I bet he can answer any questions you may have about his Hybrid C4HD/C5 kits.

Tobin
KORE3