New PHR, the LSX454, and anger issues?

[Nicks67GTO]

So i opened up my newest PHR today. I saw the GMPP has a crate 454 LSX motor!! I thought "wow thats neat!" Then i saw that they pulled 620 hp and 590 ft.lbs of tq out of this setup with a tiny cam!! Oh man thats awesome! It probably has a little lope, is easy to drive and is going to be putting 3400 lb cars in the 10's! Wow! Then I noticed what should have made me happy...that it pulled 25 mpg in a Trans Am all across the US on power tour, and if im not mistaken thats with a carb?
So heres the break down
-LSX 454 ci
-620 hp, 590 ft lbs of tq {450 ft lbs at 2400 rpm}
-carb
-25 mpg!!
WOW!!

So I thought about it for a second and i got really pissed off...i mean really mad. It dawned on me.. If they {GM} can make 620 hp and pull down 25 mpg with this super streetable LSX beast. Why can they not make a truck that gets 30-35 mpg with a motor that makes half that power? I mean WTF? It really is a bunch of BS. I know a truck weighs more and all that but come on, if you can pull 25mpg with 620 hp then you should be able to make changes to cut power and fuel consumption, and optimize a motor that will make great power and pull 5-10 mpg more in a truck. I think were all getting screwed in a big way, and this may very well be proof. Am I out of line here?
Discuss.....

[LateNight72]

Truck = https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[headpunter]

one word.....Emissions

[Tony_SS]

Emissions, brick, low power + heavy weight = poor mpg's.

[WS6]

just because an engine can make 620hp does not nean it is using 620 hp. Make that 454 use its 620 hp and it'll suck through the gas. The vette's get great mpg out of their engines because of the gearing and power band matching. Brake Specific Fuel Consumption is what matters not overall power. The engine must be in the correct area of its power band in order to obtain good gas mileage. Given all the obstacles and hoops a production vehicle must jump through and still attemp to put the engine in its optimal rpm range, I'd say they are doing very well.

Here's another way to think about it. We sold our 92 silverado with a 350cu in V8 about 10 months ago now. It got 21 mpg highway. It had the composite step bed. It was replaced by an 03 silverado extended cab with a 4.8. The 03 weighs more, has a smaller engine, makes more power, and gets the same mpg. I'd say they are doing something very right.

[parsonsj]

My 7100 lb 3/4 ton Duramax gets 12 mpg pulling 9000 lbs of barn-like trailer.

Now that's amazing!!

jp

[parsonsj]

So I thought about it for a second and i got really pissed off...i mean really mad. It dawned on me.. If they {GM} can make 620 hp and pull down 25 mpg with this super streetable LSX beast. Why can they not make a truck that gets 30-35 mpg with a motor that makes half that power? I mean WTF? It really is a bunch of BS. Do you really think GM management is holding back from producing a truck with these qualities? Is Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, and Toyota all in on the conspiracy too?

jp

[Nicks67GTO]

Do you really think GM management is holding back from producing a truck with these qualities? Is Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, and Toyota all in on the conspiracy too?

jp


You know somthing, I do kind of wonder that. Could big oil be in on that stuff? I dont know how emmissions components work and how restrictive they are to mpg, I live in Iowa and no one here cares about that stuff. Im not trying to be a smart ass here, I just do not get it. I do not see how its possible they can figure out a way to make a crate motor make 620 hp and pull 25mpg in a trans am? Aero dynamics and parasitic loss and all that aside, I would think the best engineers in the world would be able to make a motor make less peak power, more low end tq, maybe on the same cubic inch or a little less, and pull at least 25-30 in a pickup? Also why do these trucks have to keep getting bigger? I have a 1995 F150 and it seems like its just a hair bigger than some of the new Rangers now??!!

[Damn True]

You know somthing, I do kind of wonder that. Could big oil be in on that stuff? I dont know how emmissions components work and how restrictive they are to mpg, I live in Iowa and no one here cares about that stuff. Im not trying to be a smart ass here, I just do not get it. I do not see how its possible they can figure out a way to make a crate motor make 620 hp and pull 25mpg in a trans am? Aero dynamics and parasitic loss and all that aside, I would think the best engineers in the world would be able to make a motor make less peak power, more low end tq, maybe on the same cubic inch or a little less, and pull at least 25-30 in a pickup? Also why do these trucks have to keep getting bigger? I have a 1995 F150 and it seems like its just a hair bigger than some of the new Rangers now??!!

Well it's a well know fact, sonny Jim, that there's a group of the five wealthiest people in the world known as the pentaverate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers. And meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion known as, the Meadows.

So who's in this pentaverate? The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettes, The Rothchilds and Col. Sanders before he went teats up. Oh, I hated the Col. with his wee beady eyes, and that smug look on his face, Oh your gonna buy my chicken, Oohh.

How can I hate, the Col.? Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes you crave it fortnightly, smartarse!

[LateNight72]

Well it's a well know fact, sonny Jim, that there's a group of the five wealthiest people in the world known as the pentaverate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers. And meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion known as, the Meadows.

So who's in this pentaverate? The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettes, The Rothchilds and Col. Sanders before he went teats up. Oh, I hated the Col. with his wee beady eyes, and that smug look on his face, Oh your gonna buy my chicken, Oohh.

How can I hate, the Col.? Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes you crave it fortnightly, smartarse! :lol::rotfl:

[JEFFTATE]

I'm all for a good conspiracy theory.

But really , it seems like the trucks could get better gas mileage.

[Tony_SS]

Well it's a well know fact, sonny Jim, that there's a group of the five wealthiest people in the world known as the pentaverate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers. And meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion known as, the Meadows.

So who's in this pentaverate? The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettes, The Rothchilds and Col. Sanders before he went teats up. Oh, I hated the Col. with his wee beady eyes, and that smug look on his face, Oh your gonna buy my chicken, Oohh.

How can I hate, the Col.? Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes you crave it fortnightly, smartarse!

Lol...That's all very clever, I'm sure. But Bilderberg meetings do exist, every year, all the attendee's (about 150 or so) are documented, including Kissinger, Bernanke, Rockefeller, and other globalists. Like the banking elite, CEO's and political figureheads. What are they meeting about? Who knows. It's off the record. It certainly isn't a globalist governing agenda. Has to be checkers... clearly.

However, a plot to stiffel fuel economy? Probably not.

[trapin]

I'm surprised that's the part of the magazine that got you mad. That part that got the hair on the back of my neck standing up was Steve Dulcich's comment about the LSX needing further exclusion from the Engine Masters Challange because of all the intense research and product development going into them of late. HUH??!! WTF are you talking about??!!!

Perhaps that's why I don't pay any attention to that contest.

Memo to PHR...when you do an Engine Masters Challange with the LSX, new Hemi, and Ford's Modular engine...give me a call. In the meantime I'll be busy watching the "Paint Drying Channel" on DirectTV.

[BonzoHansen]

....Steve Dulcich's comment about the LSX needing further exclusion from the Engine Masters Challange because of all the intense research and product development going into them of late. HUH??!! WTF are you talking about??!!!.
Almost every pic of that guy looks like he picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/sniffingglue706742-1.jpg


Well it's a well know fact, sonny Jim, that there's a group of the five wealthiest people in the world known as the pentaverate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers. And meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion known as, the Meadows.

So who's in this pentaverate? The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettes, The Rothchilds and Col. Sanders before he went teats up. Oh, I hated the Col. with his wee beady eyes, and that smug look on his face, Oh your gonna buy my chicken, Oohh.

How can I hate, the Col.? Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes you crave it fortnightly, smartarse!

All hail the Stonecutters!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/stonecutters_2-1.jpg

“Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs the cave fish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!”

[Damn True]

Engine Masters Challange


"Paint Drying "




That whole series.......wow....really, monumentally boring.

[Tony_SS]

Almost every pic of that guy looks like he picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/sniffingglue706742-1.jpg


LMFAO!!! Ok so I'm not the only one who noticed this. :lmao:

[Vegas69]

There is no way they pulled 25mpg with a carb on that motor. Unless it was down hill the whole way. Now injected and keeping his foot out maybe. I drove my C5 vette half way across the country twice and averaged 29 one way and 30 the other. That was only 350 hp and I kept my foot out of it for the most part.

[tumper93]

One of the reasons the fuel economy is down on production vehicles is that it takes "power" to lower emissions, plain and simple.

[Mathius]

I'm not any kind of expert, I'm just a dumbass with a keyboard that reads a lot of message boards and tinkers on his vehicles when its nice out (this is OH, that isn't too often).

But I've wondered about some stuff.... Almost everything you read that is supposed to give you "better MPG" is almost the exact same modifications you use to make "more HP". So where do you draw the line? Where does more HP = less MPG?

Or is it simply a case of all these new emissions standards being too restrictive?

Is that simply it? Are the emissions the only thing holding back fuel efficiency?

We know emissions are restrictive in a lot of cases. That's not a secret. I mean people have been ripping emissions out of their vehicles since the 70's when they first started using them.

I know damn well its illegal to take federal emissions equipment out of a vehicle, but I sure as hell don't intend to maintain them on any vehicle that's past the 25 year exemption here in OH.

Mathius

[Twentyover]

Think I'll take a stab at this (although I'm sure Jr is hunting for anything I post so he can try to skewer me)

OK, it takes a given amount of horsepower to push a given profile w/ a given tire down the road. Doesn't matter if it's a sbc, bbc,or LSX (not exactly true- the same profile, with greater weight, will need slightly more horsepower to overcome rolling resistance) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_resistance - for you, Jr). So, for the sake of simplicity, let's ignore the impact of engine weight on steady state level road- a bbc will require the same hp as as a sbc/lsx/4 cylinder, assuming everything else is the same.

The overall weight of a Trans Am is what- 3500 lb (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/1151/Pontiac-Firebird-Trans-Am-WS6.html)? Year not identified, so I chose one. A Chevy Pickup (3/4 ton, regular cab, long bed) weights in 1800 lbs more (http://www.chevrolet.com/comparator/compareVehicle.do?divisionCode=ch&baseVehicleId=81233&modelYear=2008&toolsModelName=Silverado+2500HD&brandSelect=&yearSelect=2008&modelSelect=109%2C323&typeSelect=CC20903&styleSelect=81233).

Aero drag and parasitic drag is a function of Cd, frontal area, and parasitic or skin drag. I don't have values for Cd for either the car or pickup, or the total skin drag (skin drag is based on the surface area the form- if the same frontal area and Cd, if the form has more skin surface, it will require more power tomaintain the same speed). I believe it's a reasonable assumption that the T/A has a smaller frontal area and probbaly a lower Cd; and also I'm going to guess a lower surface area; so at the same speed, it would require less horsepower to push through the air.

Finally, fuel consumption is based on horsepower used, not potentail horsepower available. Traditionally, up until about 15 years ago, 0.5 lb/hp hr is considered about typical for a gasoline piston. I'm guessing with some of the newer combustion chamber shapes, this is lower- I've heard of numbers as low as 0.395' but can't document it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption). Anyway, the increase in weight and aero drag between the T/A and the pickup will require additional horsepower to drive the P/U. Since fuel consumption is based on power used, the P/U will require more power,and greater fuel, both in steady state highway travel, and in stop and go (due tothe greater weight.)

Doesn't matter how much power is capable of being produced, depends pretty much exclusively on actual power requirement. Sorry Nova, not BS- Physics

[BLT2DRIVE]

You know somthing, I do kind of wonder that. Could big oil be in on that stuff? I dont know how emmissions components work and how restrictive they are to mpg, I live in Iowa and no one here cares about that stuff. Im not trying to be a smart ass here, I just do not get it. I do not see how its possible they can figure out a way to make a crate motor make 620 hp and pull 25mpg in a trans am? Aero dynamics and parasitic loss and all that aside, I would think the best engineers in the world would be able to make a motor make less peak power, more low end tq, maybe on the same cubic inch or a little less, and pull at least 25-30 in a pickup? Also why do these trucks have to keep getting bigger? I have a 1995 F150 and it seems like its just a hair bigger than some of the new Rangers now??!!
I have an LS7 in my PT Belair Bubbletop and get nearly 30 MPG on the highway, and regularly see 22-24 in about town during the week. It made 618 @ the crank and is stock(for 24 Mo. warranty) with just longtube headers, and a S & P programed ECM, and "cats." ( Trying to do the right/green thing) I've put 17,000 miles on it since I fired it up last spring.... It's cleaned up aero wise a little, but it's still a brick. I laugh at my buddies daily driver econo-cars, At my 18 gallon tank to their twelves, I still go farther with my 600 HP on road trips than their S#!* boxes..... Bottom line, it's an efficient engine, efficiency makes power too.....