Big Red--Still the one to beat?

[CanAmNova]

I know, I know, yet another thread about the Big Red Camaro... So let's make this one a little different. I consider BR to be a kind of benchmark in the Pro-Touring movement--and it's been around since what 1989 (Big Red ver. 2.0)? So my question is: How many other classic muscle cars (say, pre-1974) can we name that have demonstrated their ability to perform anywhere near the level of Big Red?

To get things started here's a video that I found the other day that I had never seen before:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2643666566094931403

It's been 20 years since that car was built. With all of the advances in suspension design and aftermarket support for the Pro-Touring movement one would think that there should be several cars out there that can out perform Big Red... Any thoughts?

[go-fish]

Big Red IS pro-touring.

[novaderrik]

what about the original Shelby Cobra's from the 60's? i remember reading about something like 0-100-0 in 13 seconds and outrageous lateral grip..

[Restomod]

BR is top dog in its circle,the Cobras would and still will do it. But there are very few VINTAGE cars that will.

[parsonsj]

Don't get me wrong: I love Big Red.

But have you ever seen it up close? Ever thought about driving it on cruise night? It's really not a street car. At all.

Big Red is a tube-chassis race car with an unusual choice for a body: a 69 Camaro. It's really not fair to compare street cars to it. Or another way of looking at it: it's not fair to Big Red to compare it to a full interior, fuel injected, air conditioned car with a stereo. You know, real street cars that we can drive on a daily basis, or even a weekend basis.

jp

[Larry Callahan]

I agree with JP. I LOVE BR but I have always considered it a full blown race car.

[Young Gun]

I know big red is considered the bench mark but I honestly dont consider it a street car... I think that there are much better representations of a pt car... I dont meet to seem like im ridin anybodies nuts but these are some of the best representations IMO...

RonRacers 302 powered camaro
Steve Rupps Bad Penny
The mule
Roadster Shop 66(?) Chevelle
II much

I know the site has more but off the top of my head quickly those really show the mix between street and track and are proven in both...

Big red is just a race car... a freaking sweet one, but not a real pt car, not to me at least

[Vegas69]

As soon as big red can pull up to Chevron and fill up with 91 octane, idle in traffic, play your favorite song through a quality system, and drive like a modern sports car...then it would be Pro Touring. It's a cool race car.

[go-fish]

As soon as big red can pull up to Chevron and fill up with 91 octane, idle in traffic, play your favorite song through a quality system, and drive like a modern sports car...then it would be Pro Touring. It's a cool race car.


Uh Oh. I smell a link to the definition of Pro-Touring here. My interpretation is if it is able to be LEGALLY driven, tags, inspection or whatever then it's game.
I don't have a stereo in mine. I do however run pump premium and water/methanol injection. It is definately not a race car.

THe whole misconcepton that a pro-touring car has to have a "quality sound system" is effing stupid talk.

What's next? You have to have 18+" wheels that cost more than $400 per? Nice paint?

[Steve1968LS2]

Don't get me wrong: I love Big Red.

But have you ever seen it up close? Ever thought about driving it on cruise night? It's really not a street car. At all.

Big Red is a tube-chassis race car with an unusual choice for a body: a 69 Camaro. It's really not fair to compare street cars to it. Or another way of looking at it: it's not fair to Big Red to compare it to a full interior, fuel injected, air conditioned car with a stereo. You know, real street cars that we can drive on a daily basis, or even a weekend basis.

jp

Yea, to call Big Red a "street car" is sorta crazy. It's not so much the fact that it doesn't have AC or a stereo.. it's more the barely muffled crazy lumpy engine and full race interior.

I think it's big strenght is in open road high-speed stuff and not necessarily open track or autocross.

There are a few cars on this site that have "proven" that they can get down and get it done.

That said, nothing sounds better than Big Red firing up.. :drool: (on a side note several PT cars turned in faster lap times than BR when they all ran at the Optima Invitational)

[CanAmNova]

Yeah, I guess BR has become such an iconic symbol of Pro-Touring that I tend to forget that it most definitely is not a street car. Every once in a while though a car appears that looks like it would give Big Red a good run for its money. Don Stellhorn's '64 GTO comes to mind. Yes, this is a full out race car, like Big Red, and I'd love to see them rippin' through the corkscrew at Laguna Seca.

Also there's that other '69 Camaro (dark red with the big wing on the back) and there was a silver '67 Chevelle featured in Hot Rod about five years ago. Are there any cars that are on the ragged edge of street legality that come to mind?

edit: Oh, and Steve--it looks like Bad Penny kicked some a$$ in Sin City. I wish I could have been there to see it!

[parsonsj]

THe whole misconcepton that a pro-touring car has to have a "quality sound system" is effing stupid talk.

What's next? You have to have 18+" wheels that cost more than $400 per? Nice paint? Whoa! Wait a minute. Don't get hung up one feature or the other. BR is a race car with tags (sometimes... it sat in a museum surrounded by velvet rope for a decade). It really isn't the same as the cars most of us are building.

It's an awesome car, but it is a race car.

jp

[Restomod]

I dont think anyone above was saying its a "street car". Saying or implying its "Pro Touring" is a bit of a reach but it is a race car with a license plate. And very few VINTAGE cars can do what it does, hell few modern cars can.

[Vegas69]

Uh Oh. I smell a link to the definition of Pro-Touring here. My interpretation is if it is able to be LEGALLY driven, tags, inspection or whatever then it's game.
I don't have a stereo in mine. I do however run pump premium and water/methanol injection. It is definately not a race car.

THe whole misconcepton that a pro-touring car has to have a "quality sound system" is effing stupid talk.

What's next? You have to have 18+" wheels that cost more than $400 per? Nice paint?
Not even going to wade into these waters with you.

[Bjkadron]

I guess the term "Street car" all depends on what you care to drive on the street. Yeah BR is pretty much a race car... But I have no problems with that... As a matter of fact BR was one of the big inspirations I had to build my car the way I am. Its also one of the targets I have my sights set on too... :look: Don Stellhorn's '64 GTO is another one. But I wouldn't compare any of them to a stock based car directly.

[novaderrik]

Big Red almost single handedly made taking corners and going stupid fast in American muscle cars cool.
i must have read that Hot Rod article about the year they averaged 200+ at the Nevada open road race about a thousand times when i got that issue in the mail. it was also the first car poster i had up in my bedroom- i think i was 14 at the time.
it might not be everyone's idea of a "daily driver", but i know that if i had a car like it i'd drive it as often as i could. contrary to what some may think, you don't need leather seats, power windows, ice cold AC (or even a heater) or a functional stereo to drive a car on the street.. you just need a body with an engine, windows, wheels, wipers, and all the legally required lighting.

[JEFFTATE]

Big Red is an Open Road Race Car with tags.
It is also one of the biggest influences and inspirations to the Pro-Touring movement.
( If not the catalyst for the pro-touring movement. )

But, Big Red is NOT a touring car.
However , it is one of the greatest cars of all time !
I want to touch it !

But , back to the original thread ,
I would like to see an all-out shootout with Big Red and some others that are capable of those 200mph speeds.
That would be cool.

Not many cars can go 200mph and maintain it for a distance ! Not even today.
That was especially true back in the late 80's when Big Red came out.
That car put the bar higher , for everyone to try and top.

[Restomod]

Thing is there are cars that will do 200 and be street legal but most are door stop wedges not vintage "bricks".

[Steve1968LS2]

contrary to what some may think, you don't need leather seats, power windows, ice cold AC (or even a heater) or a functional stereo to drive a car on the street.. you just need a body with an engine, windows, wheels, wipers, and all the legally required lighting.

lol.. you're missing the point on why it isn't a street car. My car doesn't have heat, AC, audio, lether, power windows or anything else you mentioned. But, in the racecar/streetcar comparison it's like comparing Big Red to a an F1 car.

Just becuase something can be driven on the street doesn't make it a "streetcar".

That said BR is a the baddest Camaro out there, not just for going 200mph on numerous occasions but for doing it decades ago.

[Jetset700]

BR is a racecar turned into a 69' Camaro. Our cars are modified old
muscle cars. The car is an icon without doubt & has inspired many.
Some could say that a car is not PT if it is too spartan, the touring part to me says it still has comfort & appointments like A/C, heater, wipers. Can you road trip it like a normal car? PT is only a description of the type of build your doing anyway some cars are right on that discription & some are not so much. It's OK for a car to be more racecar like because it is what it is.

Peter

[Munster]

Like Steve and others said BR pretty much started or a bench mark in the PT movement. The dream was somewhat started there and ALL who have followed have put a twist on and improved or personalized it. Don't get lost in useless details to argue about. Just embrace and grow. My point... In a thread the other day about magazine subscriptions a guy said how he quite his subscriptions because the mags printed the same sh%t over and over as in carberator mods and cam swaps. This is the same here, look, most of the old muscle cars are around fourty years old, so how many stories do you think can be done before you start to repeat, that is where the magic comes in to it. The magic is continual upgrading and restructure from every angle, every aspect of our hobbie comes from this. Without one you don't have the other. Thats how BR can be considered the first PT or how my AirBar is partly his offspring bread with multiple mothers. WE don't have streetable 1200 hp cars because someone pulled the knowledge out of there butt, it's evolution and the reason, BR, Hot Rod, other mags, other cars are around to bread inspiration.

Steve asked what other cars can we think of that had an impact on PT in a big way or can be compared to BR. Its not a car that I have in mind but the whole Trans Am series from the sixties and seventies. Not 200 mph but they did then what started my desire to build PT now.

[go-fish]

Like Steve and others said BR pretty much started the PR movement. The dream was somewhat started there and ALL who have followed have put a twist on and improved or personalized it. Don't get lost in useless details to argue about. Just embrace and grow. My point... In a thread the other day about magazine subscriptions a guy said how he quite his subscriptions because the mags printed the same sh%t over and over as in carberator mod and cam swaps. This is the same here, look, most of the old muscle cars are around fourty years old, so how many stories do you think can be done before you start to repeat, that is where the magic comes in to it. The magic is continual upgrading and restructure from every angle, every aspect of our hobbie comes from this. Without one you don't have the other. Thats how BR can be considered the first PR or how my AirBar is partly his offspring. WE don't have streetable 1200 hp cars because someone pulled the knowledge out of there butt, it's evolution and the reason Hot Rod and those types of mags are around to bread inspiration.

Steve asked what other cars can we think of that had an impact on PT in a big way like BR.

Nail on the head, buddy. Excellent post. :cool:

[shmoov69]

Big Red IS the ULTIMATE 69 (or any year for that matter) Camaro. PERIOD.
Now, street car? Not hardly.
"Pro Touring"? Not hardly!
Wicked, bad fast, totaly insane car that we all want to immulate at some way or another? DEFINATELY!!

I mean seriously, the car got kicked out of the "unlimited" class for lack of competion! Held the record for....how many years?!?!? 10-12?? While not even competing again!!
Nothing like it, but not "pro touring".

[parsonsj]

From the OP:


So my question is: How many other classic muscle cars (say, pre-1974) can we name that have demonstrated their ability to perform anywhere near the level of Big Red?My responses above were a little indirect, I guess. I'm saying that Big Red is not a classic muscle car. It's a race car, and maybe one of the coolest race cars in the galaxy. I see the question as posed as a non sequitur.

It's nothing against Big Red: I've spent more time looking at it than nearly any other car.

jp

[Steve Chryssos]

From the OP:

My responses above were a little indirect, I guess. I'm saying that Big Red is not a classic muscle car. It's a race car, and maybe one of the coolest race cars in the galaxy. I see the question as posed as a non sequitur.

It's nothing against Big Red: I've spent more time looking at it than nearly any other car.

jp
And to bring some counterpoint (you knew I would), how does a car perform at 150mph plus without being a race car? 200mph? You can wrap hard parts in leather and polish, but considering safety, reliability, spring and shock selection, gearing, etc., ultimate performance needs to start with a race car foundation. For proof, look at all the bozos who crack up their Enzos and Carrera GT's at track days.

And to answer the original question: NO. The last few years have brought great strides in showcasing and documenting our car's performance capabilities, but no one has gone out and documented a pro-touring car excelling in every possible performance environment:
-Street (touring)
-Drag
-Road course
-Auto-cross and,
Open road race (top speed).
And if you look at that list in total, you might as well exclude Big Red as well. Never seen it do Power Tour or drag race. And I think that is what the "race car" tangent is trying to establish.
I think it's been done, but the documentation is lacking. The best that I can think of is this car (http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0806phr_1968_chevrolet_camaro/index.html). Maybe Jerry can check in and confirm that he pulled it of. He's a good guy, so I'm willing to take his word as documentation. Most of us who compete are only lacking a top speed event like Silver State or Maxton.

I have autocrossed, drag raced, done Power Tour and some track days. But my car doesn't excel at any of those categories. Does that make my car better than Big Red for running different types of events? Or worse, cause it lacks top speed and a quick E.T.?

[Steve1968LS2]

That reminds me.. I need some drag tires.. lol

[Steve Chryssos]

.......(on a side note several PT cars turned in faster lap times than BR when they all ran at the Optima Invitational)

What's up with that? Basic technical difficulties? Or has Big Red become the Fat Elvis of pro-touring?

[Restomod]

The enzos' and Carerra GT's are race cars with all the comfy stuff to. The lack of driver ability has more to with wrecking them.

[gkring]

We can also consider BR the father of the latest trend to call your pro-touring car a street fighter when it is built more for performance than the touring aspect and lacks most of the bells and whistles that makes a car fun to drive at anything other than on the edge.

[gkring]

We can also consider BR the father of the latest trend to call your pro-touring car a street fighter when it is built more for performance than the touring aspect and lacks most of the bells and whistles that makes a car fun to drive at anything other than on the edge.


That came out wrong!
Maybe BR is the father of pro-touring, and the grandfather of street fighters. Street fighters being the latest generation of pro-touring, leaner and meaner?

[67z28]

So since race cars can't be street cars what about this one??
http://image.hotrod.com/f/10119601/hrdp_0803_06_z+custom_street_racing_cars+1967_chev y_camaro_trailer_towing.jpg

[Vegas69]

We all have are own perceptions. Personally a car with big slicks and skinnies with a roll bar that can turn my head into mush isn't my cup of tea. Pro touring has evolved(This is pro-touring.com) I would like to think the pro touring car of today can do everything reasonably well. Drag, road course, cruise on Friday night, and especially run on street gas. The best part about Pro-touring is it's all about your vision and your car. That's really all the matters when you open the garage door.:)

[Steve1968LS2]

What's up with that? Basic technical difficulties? Or has Big Red become the Fat Elvis of pro-touring?

BR has a carb and as such it fell victim to the altitude of the tack. In other words it wasn't running right. I don't think it ran under a 2 minute lap time.

I don't know how good it would do an a track like that even with at good tune. What it's REALLY good at is open road stuff, going ball-out fast on a gently winding road or in some sort of Maxton type event. It's a raw power car.

While I'm fairly certain Penny would clean Big Red's clock on the autocross I'm beyond certain that Big Red would bitch slap me around at any open road event.

[Ron S]

I'm still on the fence.Deleting a few of the interior bars,knocking the compression back a tad,and a trip to the interior shop, and it would be no different alot of the cars on this board.{except for its history of course}

It seems all of us are trying to get as close to a trans am car as we can and still be legal.I know I am.

My best freind has an 8 second street car,we put alot of miles on it this past summer.In my opinion,if its got tags,and you put a fair amount of miles on it.Its a street car.Ron

[Steve1968LS2]

So since race cars can't be street cars what about this one??
http://image.hotrod.com/f/10119601/hrdp_0803_06_z+custom_street_racing_cars+1967_chev y_camaro_trailer_towing.jpg

Nobody said race cars can't be street cars. What they said was that Big Red isn't a real street car.

When I see BR do what that Camaro did then I will put it in the "street" catagory.

[67z28]

My point is that most poeple would consider that 67 Camaro a race car yet it drove something like a 1000 mile during drag week and still clicked off 7 second times. I do agree with you in that we all have our own perception of what a street car is and what a race car is. If it's legal per the local laws and I can drive it to the store for a gallon of milk it's a street car. I know in the mid ninties it was unheard of to have tubular a-arms, yet it's the norm now. So why can't a tube chassis car be considered a street car if it's legal and can handle the beating the street dishs out?

[Steve1968LS2]

That came out wrong!
Maybe BR is the father of pro-touring, and the grandfather of street fighters. Street fighters being the latest generation of pro-touring, leaner and meaner?

I could go with this.. although I see cars like the Mule and Twister more in the "father of PT" spot.

BR showed that old Camaros were'nt good for just drag cars.

[Steve1968LS2]

My point is that most poeple would consider that 67 Camaro a race car yet it drove something like a 1000 mile during drag week and still clicked off 7 second times. I do agree with you in that we all have our own perception of what a street car is and what a race car is. If it's legal per the local laws and I can drive it to the store for a gallon of milk it's a street car. I know in the mid ninties it was unheard of to have tubular a-arms, yet it's the norm now. So why can't a tube chassis car be considered a street car if it's legal and can handle the beating the street dishs out?

Have you ever hear BR fire up and idle? lol

BTW, it couldn't be in the Optima event because it didn't have brake lights. :shrug:

The sideview mirrors were bolted to the roll case so you can't have the mirrors and have the windows up. BR's interior makes my car seem like a Lexus in comparison.

BTW, my car really isn't Pro-Touring either.

[JEFFTATE]

the Fat Elvis of pro-touring?

Are you making fun of me ?? LOL

[Vegas69]

[quote=Steve1968LS2;493514]BR has a carb and as such it fell victim to the altitude of the tack. In other words it wasn't running right. I don't think it ran under a 2 minute lap time.quote]

That is so hard to believe. They must of had the car tuned for high elevation. There are some simple formulas for elevation changes and jetting. I've used them with success. It may not get you every ounce of energy but it would be close enough to get around a track. Swapping jets would take 10 minutes. (I better just keep my mouth shut from here)

[Steve1968LS2]

[quote=Steve1968LS2;493514]BR has a carb and as such it fell victim to the altitude of the tack. In other words it wasn't running right. I don't think it ran under a 2 minute lap time.quote]

That is so hard to believe. They must of had the car tuned for high elevation. There are some simple formulas for elevation changes and jetting. I've used them with success. It may not get you every ounce of energy but it would be close enough to get around a track. Swapping jets would take 10 minutes. (I better just keep my mouth shut from here)

I would guess it was tuned for lower elevations.. Parumph is one or two thousand feet up. I heard they were having tune issues. They ran some laps on the 2.2 mile deal and didn't attempt any autocross laps.

When that car fires up it really does sound like the gates of hell swinging open.

[Steve1968LS2]

Are you making fun of me ?? LOL

No, you're the skinny Elvis of Pro-Touring...

[Vegas69]

Mine was dyno tuned at sea level and I'm at 2700 feet similar to pahrump without any full throttle problems. It's only 2 jet sizes between 0 and 3000 feet.I suppose if they were rich at sea level. Still can't believe they didn't swap the jets unless they weren't prepared and it was a last minute deal.

[Steve Chryssos]

That ain't it. Elevation for Ely, NV (Silver State) is 6437 Ft. Don't tell me that them Gottlieb boys don't know how to tune for elevation. Hey, I guess it's true. My favorite pro-touring car is not a pro-touring car. More than just a race car--it's a race car that's purpose-built for just WFO racing.

So back to the original post, we have nothing to prove relative to Big Red. Unless coolness counts.

[Steve Chryssos]

That came out wrong!
Maybe BR is the father of pro-touring, and the grandfather of street fighters. Street fighters being the latest generation of pro-touring, leaner and meaner?

And maybe it means that streetfighters came first.

[Steve Chryssos]

Are you making fun of me ?? LOL

Not you!

[CanAmNova]

I'm still on the fence.Deleting a few of the interior bars,knocking the compression back a tad,and a trip to the interior shop, and it would be no different alot of the cars on this board.{except for its history of course}

It seems all of us are trying to get as close to a trans am car as we can and still be legal.I know I am.

My best freind has an 8 second street car,we put alot of miles on it this past summer.In my opinion,if its got tags,and you put a fair amount of miles on it.Its a street car.Ron

I agree Ron, if Big Red were de-tuned a little and given a few cupholders it could be street driven on a limited basis (not that I would EVER want to see that happen to BR). I'm kidding about the cup holders of course, but I think you can get my point. Getting rid of the Jerico, lowering the compression (or going FI), and installling a more comfy interior would not take that much away from the car's performance.

With all of the crazy suspension setups available (which in some cases seem even more track ready than BR's) and the huge brakes that we now have access to, it doesn't seem that far fetched that a car could be built that could better BR in almost every catagory. Perhaps even top speed. The key really would seem to be massive power.

Here's a short shopping list:
-a twin turboed LSX(or insert other engine choice here) making somewhere near 1000hp (doesn't seem like crazy talk anymore).
-aftermarket latest, greatest suspension of choice
-best available aftermarket brakes (how long will it be before we see ZR1 brakes retrofitted?)
-wider fenders/modified bodywork to accomodate wide by huge tires on both front and back of car.
-now add an interior that is liveable on the street

Of course this car would cost more to build than the combined economies of several third world countries, but it seems possible that it could top 200mph and out handle BR.

It seems to me that the pro-touring movement is ready for another game changing car--the tech is there. Or am I completely off the deep end on this?

[novaderrik]

everyone that points out all the flaws in Big red seems to forget 1 thing- it is over 20 years old. yes, there are probably cars out there that are all around better cars today, but if BR hadn't been built, none of them would probably exist as they do today.
yes, it's a race car- but it's the race car that every Pro Touring car builder tries to emulate. just like the Pro Streeters of the 70's and 80's were trying to emulate the Pro Stock racers of the early 70's and every street rod builder is trying to emulate the race cars of the post WW2 period- even if they don't know it.
when thye get built, people decide that they need things like carpet, AC, and plush seats to make it more usable for them.

[Derek69SS]

Put Big Red in my garage, and I guarantee I'd put some street miles on it, no matter how "unstreetable" it may be.

[Vegas69]

I agree Ron, if Big Red were de-tuned a little and given a few cupholders it could be street driven on a limited basis (not that I would EVER want to see that happen to BR). I'm kidding about the cup holders of course, but I think you can get my point. Getting rid of the Jerico, lowering the compression (or going FI), and installling a more comfy interior would not take that much away from the car's performance.

With all of the crazy suspension setups available (which in some cases seem even more track ready than BR's) and the huge brakes that we now have access to, it doesn't seem that far fetched that a car could be built that could better BR in almost every catagory. Perhaps even top speed. The key really would seem to be massive power.


Here's a short shopping list:
-a twin turboed LSX(or insert other engine choice here) making somewhere near 1000hp (doesn't seem like crazy talk anymore).
-aftermarket latest, greatest suspension of choice
-best available aftermarket brakes (how long will it be before we see ZR1 brakes retrofitted?)
-wider fenders/modified bodywork to accomodate wide by huge tires on both front and back of car.
-now add an interior that is liveable on the street

Of course this car would cost more to build than the combined economies of several third world countries, but it seems possible that it could top 200mph and out handle BR.

It seems to me that the pro-touring movement is ready for another game changing car--the tech is there. Or am I completely off the deep end on this?

Sure sounds like a modern pro touring car.....and the ZR1 brakes are being done as we speak with an LS9 on a 69 Camaro. I looked big red over very closely at Sema this year. Big red has been updated since it's inception.

[tom_a]

BR is a race car IMO. It's not really pro-touring. I do however think it inspired many, but they did not build it for a fashion statement or a new trend. They built it too rip anything at the Silver State Classic a new orifice :machine:. History tells us that they did and did it well. It is an awesome machine and it gets your blood movin when it fires up! It's just too nasty for the street. You could argue it could be converted but in it's current state...no, it's not like our street cars here. I asked RJ what times he ran on the track at the Optima Event and I recall he said 2.0x something and he said he was hardly getting out of second gear. I think gearing may have hurt him more than tune. If I understood him correctly it was not the KILL engine. Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I also think it had deep grooved Pilot Sport tires at this event while others had stickier tires. Please don't get me wrong I am not making excuses for BR nor do I know the guys. I am just a fan of the car. It really comes down to what the car was built for and it was not this event, drag racing or Power Tour. The other cars that competed were in my eyes pro-touring although I think only one was driven there (Bad Penny). In all fairness though many of those cars could have been driven there like One Lap, DSE Test car, Velocity but they were hundreds if not thousands of miles from home.

[gtoroadracer]

[quote=CanAmNova;493146] Don Stellhorn's '64 GTO comes to mind. Yes, this is a full out race car, like Big Red, and I'd love to see them rippin' through the corkscrew at Laguna Seca.

I would like to see that too. LOL Laguna Seca is an awesome track unfortunately it is on the other side of the country from me. Thank you for the mention.

[Steve Chryssos]

everyone that points out all the flaws in Big red ....

I don't think anyone is pointing out flaws, just stating that the car is application specific (open road race) and that the application is different than ours (multi-purpose).

[Steve1968LS2]

The only "flaw" Big Red has is that it's not in my garage...

[Steve1968LS2]

[quote=CanAmNova;493146] Don Stellhorn's '64 GTO comes to mind. Yes, this is a full out race car, like Big Red, and I'd love to see them rippin' through the corkscrew at Laguna Seca.

I would like to see that too. LOL Laguna Seca is an awesome track unfortunately it is on the other side of the country from me. Thank you for the mention.

God I love your car. I saw it in person that the show in Carlisle.. very very cool.

[parsonsj]

I'm not pointing out flaws in Big Red. I just pointed out that the question posted by the OP doesn't make sense.

jp

[gtoroadracer]

God I love your car. I saw it in person that the show in Carlisle.. very very cool


Thank you, I appreciate that, and thanks for stopping by at the show and checking it out. Carlise is a great show and we had a lot of fun there.

[Steve1968LS2]

What this thread needs is a damn picture...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/b5qtf6-1.jpg

[Restomod]

MMMM Wall paper...........

[JEFFTATE]

Nice Picture !

Love the GTO ,Don !
I didn't know you where a member on here .

[parsonsj]

That's sweet!

jp

[Charley Lillard]

There keeps being mention of Big Red being a tube frame race chassis but I could have sworn I saw a GM subframe under it at SEMA a couple years ago. Anybody have any chassis pics ?

[Charley Lillard]

And no I don't really consider it to be a "Pro-Touring" car, just the God of all Camaro's.

[BonzoHansen]

And no I don't really consider it to be a "Pro-Touring" car, just the God of all Camaro's.

:git:

[rogue]

this thread reminds me of how "hot rods" ended up "street rods". People wanted more reliability, more comfort, and creature comforts. If its street legal its fair game in my opinion. Way too much of this creature comfort thing going on lately for my liking.

It seems as if "protouring" is shifting from its original conception to something people with larger budgets are forming. Luxury muscle cars.

Big Red is street legal, and just because its more race car than socalled 'pro-touring' to some of you, doesn't mean it should be discredited.

Way too many cars being built with insane budgets. Big Red runs like stink, and until I see another camaro out there pushing the limits like that, it's still top dog.

[CanAmNova]

this thread reminds me of how "hot rods" ended up "street rods". People wanted more reliability, more comfort, and creature comforts. If its street legal its fair game in my opinion. Way too much of this creature comfort thing going on lately for my liking.

It seems as if "protouring" is shifting from its original conception to something people with larger budgets are forming. Luxury muscle cars.

Big Red is street legal, and just because its more race car than socalled 'pro-touring' to some of you, doesn't mean it should be discredited.

Way too many cars being built with insane budgets. Big Red runs like stink, and until I see another camaro out there pushing the limits like that, it's still top dog.

I tend to agree Rogue, personally my favorite pro-touring cars are the one's that focus on performance first and "streetability" second--Street Fighter is what I've heard them referred to as lately. Although I completely understand the desire to have a car that is comfortable enough to drive around all the time and enjoy. If that's whatcha want then by all means go ahead and build it, they all have their place under the pro-touring tent.

As far as my original question goes, I don't think that Big Red being based on a race car chassis is the issue. I asked are there many pre '74 cars that can match its performance. Race car or no the chassis that it's based on is a 20 (or more) year old stock car design (although it has seen some updates throughout the years according to a previous poster). Aren't there other cars out there that have chassis' that are more technically advanced than Big Red's? I kinda see Big Red's best points as its brute of a motor, its huge tires on all four corners (335's all the way around if I'm not mistaken), and it's excellent brakes. After all, wasn't the first version of Big Red based on a stock subframe?

[David Pozzi]

http://www.bigredcamaro.com/newsite/mainpage.html
Looks like there was a "Big Red I" and a "Big Red II".

"I" had a stock sub, "II" has a tube frame.
David

[CanAmNova]

http://www.bigredcamaro.com/newsite/mainpage.html
Looks like there was a "Big Red I" and a "Big Red II".

"I" had a stock sub, "II" has a tube frame.
David

Yes David this is true. Here's some info directly off of the website that I found interesting:

"The car known today as Big Red is the second of two cars that were built. Big Red “One” was a highly modified 1969 Camaro that used the original production chassis."

"In April 1988, Big Red One debuted at the La Carerra Road Race in Ensenada, Mexico. This race was a 120-mile flat-out road race, held twice a year. In the spring the race went from Ensenada to San Felipe. In the fall, it reversed course and went from San Felipe to Ensenada. Motorcycles went first and 30 minutes later the racecars were released. The fastest cars would go first, with a 1-minute delay between each car (thus trying to avoid passing during the race). Big Red One was in the unlimited class, competing with many types of street rods, including exotic Ferraris and turbo Porsches.This was Big Red One’s initial debut in the La Carerra and it was consequently put in 3rd position at the start of the race. Not knowing what Big Red One was capable of, the lineup was not questioned. Once the race started, Big Red One quickly caught up and passed the two lead cars, which were a highly modified Pantera and a sloped-nose, twin-turbo Porsche 911. In fact, Big Red One would eventually even catch the slower motorcycles.In order to know how fast the car was going, a white hash mark was put on the tachometer at 6,900 RPM. It was calculated that in 4th gear, at 6,900 RPM the car would be traveling at about 190 miles per hour. On several of the long straight-aways of the race Big Red One turned 7,100 rpm (over 200 mph!)."

Of course the article goes on to say that Big Red One met an early demise by crashing due to a steering linkage failure after which it was decided that it would be safer to rebuild the car with a stock car based tube chassis.

[the camtender]

And to bring some counterpoint (you knew I would), how does a car perform at 150mph plus without being a race car? 200mph? You can wrap hard parts in leather and polish, but considering safety, reliability, spring and shock selection, gearing, etc., ultimate performance needs to start with a race car foundation. For proof, look at all the bozos who crack up their Enzos and Carrera GT's at track days.

And to answer the original question: NO. The last few years have brought great strides in showcasing and documenting our car's performance capabilities, but no one has gone out and documented a pro-touring car excelling in every possible performance environment:
-Street (touring)
-Drag
-Road course
-Auto-cross and,
Open road race (top speed).
And if you look at that list in total, you might as well exclude Big Red as well. Never seen it do Power Tour or drag race. And I think that is what the "race car" tangent is trying to establish.
I think it's been done, but the documentation is lacking. The best that I can think of is this car (http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0806phr_1968_chevrolet_camaro/index.html). Maybe Jerry can check in and confirm that he pulled it of. He's a good guy, so I'm willing to take his word as documentation. Most of us who compete are only lacking a top speed event like Silver State or Maxton.

I have autocrossed, drag raced, done Power Tour and some track days. But my car doesn't excel at any of those categories. Does that make my car better than Big Red for running different types of events? Or worse, cause it lacks top speed and a quick E.T.?

Fear not, my word for documentation can easy be varified :)

[98ssnova]

BR was one of the the OG in Pro-Touring IMO I will always enjoy it as a race car and not much more. Love it for what it is.

[BonzoHansen]

http://www.bigredcamaro.com/newsite/mainpage.html
Looks like there was a "Big Red I" and a "Big Red II".

"I" had a stock sub, "II" has a tube frame.
David


I was gonna ask about that but I figured if no one brought it up my memory was bad. :)

[the camtender]

I'll get my buddy to post up my run (video) at the Texas Mile for now here the certicate. sorry for the smaall pics,best I can do.

[monza]

What this thread needs is a damn picture...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/b5qtf6-1.jpg

Nice!! and I like your quote,

"When that car fires up it really does sound like the gates of hell swinging open."

So true, at the Optima event everyone was busy doing their thing then the gates of hell opened... EVERYONE looked no matter what they were in the middle of to watch and listen to the BR beast go through the start up procedure.
To hear that and check out the car real close and listen to people talk about driving it on the street is pretty funny.

[monza]

rookie photo kinda lame...

[CanAmNova]

I'll get my buddy to post up my run (video) at the Texas Mile for now here the certicate. sorry for the smaall pics,best I can do.

Right On! That's what I'm talkin' about!!:twothumbs

[shortrack]

Im also of the belief that if it has lights, wipers etc and can be certified for the road then its a street car......like previously posted if you wanted to wiegh the thing down its just a trip to the interior and stereo shop away from being full PT but I guess by todays standards its more of a streetfighter......

the coolest thing I like about a (my) full on stock car chassis is its adjustability......with all the shocks/springs/A arms/swaybars available you could make it run 200 on an open road event, turn around put an oval set up in it and run like a demon, long or shortrack, put a roadrace set up in it and have at it and do very well, heck you could set it up to ride like a Cadillac at 30 mph if you wanted......pretty awesome for one car!!!.....we'll see how the car turns out.....its safe to say it will be more streetfighter that PT though

and for the record I was a little saddened when BR came out.....I was like "awwww thats what I wanted to do!" I didnt realize till now there was "two" BR's though, doug

[Vegas69]

Jeez Doug....you better get your butt in gear...the jetsons may pass you by. LOL

[Norm Peterson]

And to bring some counterpoint (you knew I would), how does a car perform at 150mph plus without being a race car? 200mph? You can wrap hard parts in leather and polish, but considering safety, reliability, spring and shock selection, gearing, etc., ultimate performance needs to start with a race car foundation. For proof, look at all the bozos who crack up their Enzos and Carrera GT's at track days.
That you need to start with race car thinking if you're going to build it yourself is given.

But as far as what bozos and cracked up Enzos/Carreras/etc., demonstrate - that's more likely cases where the drivers at least briefly ran out of talent before the cars ran out of capability.


Norm

[parsonsj]

So true, at the Optima event everyone was busy doing their thing then the gates of hell opened... EVERYONE looked no matter what they were in the middle of to watch and listen to the BR beast go through the start up procedure.
To hear that and check out the car real close and listen to people talk about driving it on the street is pretty funny.That's where I'm coming from. I suppose you could find a way to tag it, and get it on the street. Hopefully all the cops you'd drive by would be deaf so you could do that for an hour or so before getting pulled over, lol.

jp

[Charley Lillard]

Can someone show me current pics of Big Reds suspension ? Anybody ?

[Neil B]

Can someone show me current pics of Big Reds suspension ? Anybody ?

While not really a chassis pic, here is a pic showing the front clip. God I love this car.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Vegas69]

Can someone show me current pics of Big Reds suspension ? Anybody ?
I had some I took at Sema but they went bye bye with my desktop in December.

[shortrack]

Jeez Doug....you better get your butt in gear...the jetsons may pass you by. LOL

yeah I know......its been a dream for a long time but life got in the way until a few yrs ago.....had no place to work on it, built the shop in '06, 1400 sq ft, I got the chevelle a year and a half ago and the racecar a year ago.....been collecting parts (trans, bellhousing,clutch, 9 inch pod etc) outfitting the shop (compressor, drill press etc) buying tools (welder, air tools, engine stand, sheet metal brake, cherry picker etc torches).....the latest thing has been insulating the shop......Im very busy with work in the summer so winter is the time to work on things.....I couldnt afford to heat an uninsulated shop.....so as of last weekend we got 8" in the cieling and 6" in the walls, what a difference, wow......although the cars just sit there I am sorta working on them......doug

[JEFFTATE]

Can someone show me current pics of Big Reds suspension ? Anybody ?


Hey Charley , look at the Big Red Website.
Under " Picture Galleries: Big Red Now "
http://www.bigredcamaro.com/newsite/mainpage.html

There's pretty good pics of the chassis when they re-did it in 2003 or so..... to bring it out of retirement.
They're not very big , but you get some idea..

[CanAmNova]

Does anyone have any info on the performance or current status of this grocery getter?:)

Also what is this car named? Dyno West Camaro? Goodies Speed Shop Camaro? Gulf Camaro?...

[rogue]

That's where I'm coming from. I suppose you could find a way to tag it, and get it on the street. Hopefully all the cops you'd drive by would be deaf so you could do that for an hour or so before getting pulled over, lol.

jp

big red on the streets of burbank...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/l23-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[shortrack]

very cool.....around here the cops would freak out because there is a number on the car so your "promoting racing" :bsjerk:

[69X22]

While not really a chassis pic, here is a pic showing the front clip. God I love this car.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
I don't know which I like better, they are both legends in my book!

[David Pozzi]

Here's a suspension shot from SEMA a couple of years ago.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[CarlC]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

That's Larry second from the left, and me in the ball cap next to him.

Good thing the police were not around. It's very loud, but makes all the right noises.

That was at Tony's book signing in Burbank.

[JEFFTATE]

So , who drove the car down there ??
Did they let Tony borrow it ??
Or is R.J. on the sidelines somewhere ??

[fishtail8]

I don't care what anyone says... That car got my blood pumping when I first saw it, and it still does to this day. Is it still the one to beat? I guess until someone knocks it off it's perch I'd say yes...

[JEFFTATE]

Why isn't R.J. a member on here ???

[CarlC]

I don't remember. Tony would.

IMO, on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being street car and 10 being race car, BR is a 9.9. Super cool, makes all the right noises, great build, but not exactly what most of the builds here focus on: All around good performance with a reasonable amount of comfort.

[the camtender]

I'll get my buddy to post up my run (video) at the Texas Mile for now here the certicate. sorry for the smaall pics,best I can do.

Steve, I now have video posted up on you tube and have updated other videos to my signature.enjoy :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvEzlnnAB8I

[CanAmNova]

Steve, I now have video posted up on you tube and have updated other videos to my signature.enjoy :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvEzlnnAB8I

Camtender, that youtube vid is GREAT! Wow, that looks like fun.

[Restomod]

Camtender, Very respectable speed!!!

[the camtender]

Thanks, if conditions and my timing were a little better, probably could have managed 180 mph. I was set to go back later in Oct 08' with a 190-195 mph target, but had to cancel the week of (family emergency). I have something else planned for camtender this March (maybe some tv time :fingersx:), but still plan to go back to the Mile this Oct. when there's less south winds (head winds) blowing.

Jerry