Project? TBird SC vs. Monte SS

[kursed56]

I dont have a lot of body /rust repair experience and not to mention money either. But Im looking into an 80s car that I could find for a reasonable price, doesnt need much body/rust work and easily modified. I dont have all the skills some of you guys have. Has to be a manual shift car.

87-93 Thunderbird or 80's Monte SS, I like both.

What are your thoughts?

I think a t-bird would be cool, I havent seen many lowered and built and I know the Monte can easily be built up. Both can be had with strong rears, 5-speeds (at least the Bird? did the Monte ever have a manual?

Any thoughts? I also like the 3rd Gen Camaros, T/As.

[Boyd]

All are decent choices, but I would go with a 3rd gen Camaro.

[jy211]

I'd go with a monte or 3rd gen if it was me...LOL

[No one]

Whichever you can get your hands on first/cheapest. I'm fortunate enough to have both the SC and a GM G-body. The SC is a great fun car but can get on the expensive side in a hurry just for maintenance costs. Even though there were quite a few of them made not a lot of people seem to know about them, henceforth parts can be a little hard to comeby sometimes. I had to order the water pump for mine. Thanks to intercooler tubes it's a PITA to change the plugs on them; under the car unless you're skinny enough to snake your arms between the fenderwell and the motor. The 5spd (Mazda M5OD R2) isn't the best in the world (a little truckish) but will handle the power and any you may add. 2nd gear synchros are notorious for going out. Check the rear diff for worn differential bushings, another common problem. The intercoolers are sufficient for stock but any more than a couple extra pounds of boost and you'll need either: 1) doube IC, 2) IC fan or 3) FMIC. The rears for the SC's actually are pretty strong even being IRS (8.8" center section) with some guys with the better built cars (400+ HP) still using stock halfshafts. There's a LOT more about the cars to find out and play with but I can't think of it all. Check this site out for more info: www.SCCOA.com (http://www.SCCOA.com) : SuperCoupe Club of America.

I love my Thunderbird for an everyday beat around fun car but I can't wait till I get started on my '87 442....then it's bye bye Thunderbird.

[BA.]

I'd probably do the Monte because I like it's looks.

The TBird would accept a Mustang motor which would make good power and be easy to upgrade.

[No one]

That would defeat the purpose of the SC though (supercharged 3.8 V6). If you want a V8 model look for a Sport (same HO302) but the only factory models with a 5spd were the SC's. Not too much of a problem to convert though.

[Brandon Miller]

Pass on the TBird. There are parts for the V6 but not a lot compared to other motors. The TBird just doesn't have the following or the parts to get it where you would want it. I'd go with the Chevy. And this is coming from a Ford guy.

[BADNBLK]

Third gen!! Classic looks, great handling, and LSx drivetrain can be easily adapted..... but then again I may be biased:geek:

Only thing is going to the barber and asking for that haircut that has be so synonymous with the 3rd gen cars... "Camaro cut please" :razz:

[bmjwright]

I'd get the 80's Monte...if you want a manual trans, you'll have to put it in, the didn't come with one.

[kursed56]

Dang, contrary to my posting header, Ive been looking thru Craigslist and it seems the best way to go is with a 3rd gen Camaro. One can be had in decent shape, complete with a 5-spd manual for about a grand.

My wife has already warned me about the haircut so I told her I would grow a big mustache instead.

[No one]

The Thunderbirds are a great car but you really do have to fall in love with them to spend the kind of money required just to match a mildly built third gen or Fox body 'Stang.

[406 Q-ship]

Third gen!! Classic looks, great handling, and LSx drivetrain can be easily adapted..... but then again I may be biased:geek:

Only thing is going to the barber and asking for that haircut that has be so synonymous with the 3rd gen cars... "Camaro cut please" :razz:

It is a whole lot easier to put the LS series engine in a G-body than a 3rd Gen F-body. The G-body is a great handling chassis too, every bit as good as the F-body. The one major flaw with the G-body (and most of the 3rd Gen F-bodies) is the crappy front brakes. It would be cool to see a T-bird SC too, a bit of dare to be different.

[The Stickman]

I would go for the T-bird. If the Supercharged V-6 is hard to get parts for stick an older 2.3L turbo engine. I think it's the better choice as I haven't seen one done Pro-Touring style.

[No one]

Inspiration?:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/ovr_0871-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/ovr_0590-1.jpg

The 2.3T swap has been discussed before on the SC forum...general concensus is that it's not enough to move the heft of a MN12 chassis 'bird, especially a Supercoupe...even base Supercoupes were very well optioned. Tipping the scales at 4K pounds +/- the 2.3T may not be up to the challenge. Modded, who knows?

[icebird84]

It is a whole lot easier to put the LS series engine in a G-body than a 3rd Gen F-body. The G-body is a great handling chassis too, every bit as good as the F-body. The one major flaw with the G-body (and most of the 3rd Gen F-bodies) is the crappy front brakes. It would be cool to see a T-bird SC too, a bit of dare to be different.

3 gen is not hard if you are in us

1 . get this K-Members
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Motor Mounts: ) LS1 Motor Mounts
Rack Mounts: 4th Gen Rack Mounts
Spring Perches: OEM Spring Perches
Price: $649.00

and Bushing A-Arms

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Spring Perches: OEM Spring Perches
Price: $399.00

2. get one like this (http://www.repairablevehicle.com/vehicle_details.cfm?ClientID=Quality64701&VID=1367&iStartRec=1&iPageLoc=1)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
$9,750.00 or more damage less money :)

[srh3trinity]

I think a T-bird would be cool and that is coming from a Chevy guy. I grew up in Hueytown, AL and I can remember Davey Allison's black T-bird with black wheels and tinted windows. I guess you would have to decide if you wanted to invest the money. I am hoping to do a third gen Camaro in the not too distant future. I think there is a lot of potential there.

[jackfrost]

of course, I'm biased, but I think the g-bodies are a great platform. they're cheap as hell, plentiful in the junkyards, full-frame, regular a-arm front suspension. and, I think they look good.

as noted, the brakes suck, but there are several options to get around that.

78-80 cars came with manuals, but they're weak and rare. there are starting to be options for retrofitting manuals.

if you want a turbo 6, find a Turbo Regal. if you want a LS swap, get a Monte. if you want something special, get a Cutlass. :razz:

[fishtail8]

Along the same lines, how about Cougar? The parents had an '87 20th anniversary one. Fully loaded, with a 5.0L that would have taken all the Mustang mods. I don't imagine a 5spd swap would be that hard. Throw a Vortec on it and cruise in luxury. I would have kept that old girl.....

[JMarsa]

I like the T-Bird but with a 5.0 and stick with the SC's bodywork. With IRS how can you go wrong?

--JMarsa

[85_SS]

I'm biased, but I'd go with a g-body. As mentioned, the 83-88 SS never came with a standard trans, but the swap isn't very difficult and is becoming more and more common. You may even come across one already swapped if you're lucky.

That being said, a friend of mine used to have a Tbird SuperCoupe and it was a beautiful car.

[Damn True]

The T-bird will accept all kinds of Mustang parts. You could pretty easily put on a bunch of stuff from Griggs or Agent-47 and have a very quick and rather unusual toy.

Resale will be crap though if that's a concern at all.

[ajjones44]

I say go with the Monte or 2nd Gen Firebird. Both can be found at good prices. I am looking at either those two or a T-Type roller.

[Boyd]

Anyone remember the white Thunderbird that Hot Rod cooked up in 1988 or 89? I think they used an '87 Thunderbird and went through the engine, suspension, and interior. I think it was called the Corvette Killer or something like that. I was in high-school at the time and was in love with that car. Every time I see one of those body-styles, I still think about it.

[fastback]

Sorry I don't have any recent pics, but this is the T Bird I'm working on. The nice thing is that the car is almost mechanically identical to the 5.0 Mustang, making aftermarket parts nearly unlimited. Mine is a 5.0 with an AOD, but a five speed swap is easy, if you want to go that route. Currently, I'm doing a five lug, four wheel Cobra disc brake swap and Mustang coilovers, front and rear. The stuff bolts right on...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[kursed56]

I do like the older Birds, 83-88 (the 87-88s turbos) but I imagine those didnt come with the IRS like the 89-97s.

On looks alone Id have to go with the Monte SS, just because its looks mean. And I do like the fact that they are full frame cars.

Thanks for everyones input.

[Boyd]

fastback,

Nice project. Different enough to be really cool, but huge aftermarket support for it.

[MonzaRacer]

As it goes I always thought the Cougar XR7 was a better deal, as its more notch back and same as SC TB too.

[No one]

Yes pre-89 Birds are Fox body Thunderbirds (solid rear axle). 89-97 Thunderbirds (89-95 SC) are a MN12 chassis (IRS). Another Thunderbird site to check out is www.TCCOA.com (Thunderbird/Cougar Club of America) although the members on there are geared more toward drag racing.

[fastback]

On http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/ there are a couple of guys who've made the '99 and up Mustang Cobra IRS work in the fox body T-Birds. It didn't appear to be a terribly difficult project, as the pick up points are nearly identical.

Here's a thread for you... http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=9299&highlight=irs

And another... http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2542616/2

[Thrillrr]

You could always do a short wheel based t-bird like this. Although I would probably go with the Monte Carlo SS
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2386647

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[ProTouring442]

I do like the older Birds, 83-88 (the 87-88s turbos) but I imagine those didnt come with the IRS like the 89-97s.

On looks alone Id have to go with the Monte SS, just because its looks mean. And I do like the fact that they are full frame cars.

Thanks for everyones input.

The later Cobra IRS is practically a bolt in. A Turbo Coupe with a handful of upgrades, and maybe even a 5.0 or LSX swap could be a lot of fun!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[Bjkadron]

Any Of these would be cool... Thunderbird would be different... Could be fast too... There was a really cool t-bird in one lap of America.... That thing was MEAN!

[fastback]

this may seem like a dumb question but forgive me, I'm not a ford guy... Aren't the thunderbird the cougar and the mustang all the same platform? like the same front suspension and all that stuff?

Yup. The T-Birds/Cougars are just about 9 inches longer. Other than that, they're nearly identical. That's what attracted me to the T-Bird...huge amount of aftermarket support, but a different body, so it stands out from the crowd.

[Bjkadron]

cool... Thanks!

[86Cutlass383SR]

I agree, the T-Bird would be differant and very cool. My vote is for the G-body with the manual. Not hard to do and third gen f-body parts will bolt in, including the pedals for the manual swap.

G-bodies with manual tranny's are FUN... see my sig below...

[ed1le]

My buddies parents had a SC, it would surprise people and was fun to drive! It would definitely be unique to the PT scene. However, I also have a strong love for the G-bodies too having one when I was in college. Both good choices if done right.

[No one]

Yup. The T-Birds/Cougars are just about 9 inches longer. Other than that, they're nearly identical. That's what attracted me to the T-Bird...huge amount of aftermarket support, but a different body, so it stands out from the crowd.

Only up to '88 which are still Fox-bodies. In '89 Thunderbirds/Cougars were built on a new chassis, the MN12 while the Fox body Mustang still soldiered on until '94 which then changed to the SN95 chassis.

[motorheadmike]

It is a whole lot easier to put the LS series engine in a G-body than a 3rd Gen F-body. The G-body is a great handling chassis too, every bit as good as the F-body. The one major flaw with the G-body (and most of the 3rd Gen F-bodies) is the crappy front brakes. It would be cool to see a T-bird SC too, a bit of dare to be different.

I beg to differ... only because this is an open forum and I have the luxury to do so. ;)

The 3rd Gen F-body is heads and tails a better platform for a handling/racing machine. Even my stock suspension 300,000km base model rust bucket Z28 has proven to be a more sound vehicle during an Auto-X than my Turbo Buick with substantial suspension, braking and tire/wheel improvements (many pulled from a 3rd Gen F-body catalog). The number one advantage that the 3rd Gen F-Body has over most every other tub built during that era is its CG. Attached is a very rough overlay of a stock 3rd Gen Camaro over my highly modified (and substantially lowered) Buick Regal. Now imagine those stock for stock, or better yet with the 3rd Gen at competition height... Then there is the wheel base & track width issue (pardon the turned wheels on the Camaro... it wasn't my photo), the Camaro lends itself more favourably in these areas too, even though both cars are of equal track width the Camaro is roughly 7 inches shorter; and that translates to a lot of advantages on the track. Then there are the basic go fast goodies that come factory in an F-body that don't ever appear in a G-body of any designation such as: big sway bars, wide wheels, fast ratio steering, good seats, manual transmissions, fuel injection (excluding the LC2 of course), 4 wheel disc brakes and so on...

So yes. The F-body is superior to the G-body (and the Thunderbird Super Coupe too as it is a helpless boat) and its dump truck handling characteristics. The G-body will understeer all day long and is a handful to drive at the best of times on the track.

However, when it comes to style nothing beats the diversity of the A/G-body from '78-88! There are so many beautiful models with subtle and serious face lifts from "mid-generation" makeovers to special models. The MCSS, 442, GP 2+2 and Turbo Buicks have a presence that you will never gain in an IROC or Trans Am; especially if you are fast in it and drive it well. Remember: a car is only as good as its driver; build what makes you happy.

[kursed56]

Thanks guys, a lot of good info and opinions here.

Of course Im on a budget and thats the reason for the cars have named here. They all seem to have a decent entry price for a lot of car and a good platform to start with.

What basic affordable mods would you guys start with on these cars?

[ANIMOSITY]

I say go with the bird. Plenty of everything else on the road. Plus the later bird had IRS in them. Ford also built a one-off t-bird that was going to come from SVT,blown 4.6 backed by a t-45. Ive seen a few birds that ran and handled nice.

If you look hard enough you might find the rare mid 90s bird that ford had done that had about 6inches taken out of the center. I think there were only maybe ten made, but thet had no motors. You could build one of them or a clone. Just my 2cents.

[fastback]

I'd build a Fox-bodied Bird (big surprise, right). Do a pro-charged 347 stroker with a six speed. Bolt in the Cobra IRS and Cobra brakes, like mine. Do coilovers, or Air-Ride and you're all set.

To get started on a budget, throw in a stock 5.0/5spd combo from a Mustang. It all bolts right in. Bolt-ons to make a 5.0 scream are endless.

The Mustang 8.8 rear bolts right in, but is 1.5" narrower than the T-Bird rear. It provides added strength, Traction Loc and more room for more rear tire.

Grab a set of spindles, axles and brakes from an SN95 Mustang. They go for like 250.00 at the junkyard. Now you have 5 lug four wheel disc. From there, when you have a few bucks, you can upgrade the rotors and calipers to Cobra spec.

Some subframe connectors from the Mustang fit, but you'll need to check on which ones. To be safe, Maximum Motorsports makes T-Bird specific connectors. In fact, Maximum Motorsports makes a lot of T-Bird parts. I'm running Mustang upper and lower rear control arms. You need the adjustable ones to get your pinion angle right.

Mustang springs and struts bolt right on, but you need a special bracket to make Mustang rear shocks work. No biggie, just use T-Bird rear shocks instead.

Mustang headers and H-pipe will work, but you need to have tailpipes made, as the Bird is longer than the Mustang.

Check out this blown small block '88 TurboCoupe...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[ProTouring442]

I'd build a Fox-bodied Bird (big surprise, right). Do a pro-charged 347 stroker with a six speed. Bolt in the Cobra IRS and Cobra brakes, like mine. Do coilovers, or Air-Ride and you're all set.

To get started on a budget, throw in a stock 5.0/5spd combo from a Mustang. It all bolts right in. Bolt-ons to make a 5.0 scream are endless.

The Mustang 8.8 rear bolts right in, but is 1.5" narrower than the T-Bird rear. It provides added strength, Traction Loc and more room for more rear tire.

Grab a set of spindles, axles and brakes from an SN95 Mustang. They go for like 250.00 at the junkyard. Now you have 5 lug four wheel disc. From there, when you have a few bucks, you can upgrade the rotors and calipers to Cobra spec.

Some subframe connectors from the Mustang fit, but you'll need to check on which ones. To be safe, Maximum Motorsports makes T-Bird specific connectors. In fact, Maximum Motorsports makes a lot of T-Bird parts. I'm running Mustang upper and lower rear control arms. You need the adjustable ones to get your pinion angle right.

Mustang springs and struts bolt right on, but you need a special bracket to make Mustang rear shocks work. No biggie, just use T-Bird rear shocks instead.

Mustang headers and H-pipe will work, but you need to have tailpipes made, as the Bird is longer than the Mustang.

Check out this blown small block '88 TurboCoupe...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Damn that looks nice!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[kursed56]

It does look good and a lot of good info there also.

[fast Ed]

Depends on what the goals are for the car. The SC has the advantage of being a very comfortable cruiser with good handling out of the box compared to the Monte, and you can get a stick from the factory. However as mentioned they can be expensive to maintain and modify compared to a G-body Chev.


cheers
Ed N.

[No one]

Not really pro-touring but thought it might inspire some ideas. Lincoln Fox body with a swapped T5 (IIRC)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/rightside-2.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/DSCI0012-1.jpg

Another one (not the same car)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Just a gratuitous Thunderbird shot simply because I LOVE this one:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/phase1b-1.jpg

[minidemon]

I own a '93 T-bird SC. It is a very fun car and handels well too. If you were to buy a SC I would buy a pulley set and upgraded motor mount as the stock ones are fluid filled and tear easy. You can always do the cobra brake upgrade, which also give you a better wheel choice because its metric stock. I have seen guys put cobra DOHC motors in the T-birds but thats a whole diffrent story. They can get pricy when you get into the bigger mods though.

[joemac]

Although it is pretty stock right now my '94 will be getting big wheels and tires, massive brakes, suspension components and engine upgrades to improve the 5.0 I swapped in already.

Here are some pictures of it from about a year ago.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/CarPics047-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/CarPics051-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/campingandcarpics046-1.jpg

[No one]

MN12 Birds are 5x4.25, not metric.

[joemac]

It can also be expressed in millimeters, although rare I have seen it before 5x4.25 is 5x108mm

My car has been swapped to mustang hubs 5x4.5, hence the pro stars

[HectorM52]

It's a shame to hear that the SC's are so heavy. Any easy ways to lighten them up? Steel bumper supports? Change to all aluminum motor (LS??)? Anything?

Anyway, the SC gets my vote even though I'm through and through a Chevy guy...

...I remember back in high school this one dude had done his RIGHT. Reminds me of the one posted earlier doin' the Auto-x. I remember him lighting them up at one intersection and I was immediately in love.

Plus, did someone say IRS??? I mean, come on, that should be the deciding factor!!!

[fast Ed]

Just the power seats weigh about 85 pounds each, so going with aftermarket seats, and removing some sound deadening, can get 150 lbs. or more out of the car. Most of them tend to be pretty well equipped too, power driver's seat, A/C, power locks and windows, optional moonroof and pass. power seat. My 95 5-speed with just about every option available scaled at around 3,850 with me in it, and I'm a skinny bastid.

Here is a shot of my 95 getting hammered around Shannonville in eastern Ontario at an SVT club event I was helping out at a few years back:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/attachmentphpattachmentid3800d1065491375-1.jpg


cheers
Ed N.

[HectorM52]

Schweet! That's what I'm talking about!

[406 Q-ship]

3 gen is not hard if you are in us

1 . get this K-Members
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Motor Mounts: ) LS1 Motor Mounts
Rack Mounts: 4th Gen Rack Mounts
Spring Perches: OEM Spring Perches
Price: $649.00

and Bushing A-Arms

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Spring Perches: OEM Spring Perches
Price: $399.00

2. get one like this (http://www.repairablevehicle.com/vehicle_details.cfm?ClientID=Quality64701&VID=1367&iStartRec=1&iPageLoc=1)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
$9,750.00 or more damage less money :)

And a G-body requires a car, engine mount adapter plates, engine, and headers.........a whole lot less and cheaper than a 3rd Gen F-body if it requires a K-brace, I'm just saying.

[406 Q-ship]

I beg to differ... only because this is an open forum and I have the luxury to do so. ;)

The 3rd Gen F-body is heads and tails a better platform for a handling/racing machine. Even my stock suspension 300,000km base model rust bucket Z28 has proven to be a more sound vehicle during an Auto-X than my Turbo Buick with substantial suspension, braking and tire/wheel improvements (many pulled from a 3rd Gen F-body catalog). The number one advantage that the 3rd Gen F-Body has over most every other tub built during that era is its CG. Attached is a very rough overlay of a stock 3rd Gen Camaro over my highly modified (and substantially lowered) Buick Regal. Now imagine those stock for stock, or better yet with the 3rd Gen at competition height... Then there is the wheel base & track width issue (pardon the turned wheels on the Camaro... it wasn't my photo), the Camaro lends itself more favourably in these areas too, even though both cars are of equal track width the Camaro is roughly 7 inches shorter; and that translates to a lot of advantages on the track. Then there are the basic go fast goodies that come factory in an F-body that don't ever appear in a G-body of any designation such as: big sway bars, wide wheels, fast ratio steering, good seats, manual transmissions, fuel injection (excluding the LC2 of course), 4 wheel disc brakes and so on...

So yes. The F-body is superior to the G-body (and the Thunderbird Super Coupe too as it is a helpless boat) and its dump truck handling characteristics. The G-body will understeer all day long and is a handful to drive at the best of times on the track.

However, when it comes to style nothing beats the diversity of the A/G-body from '78-88! There are so many beautiful models with subtle and serious face lifts from "mid-generation" makeovers to special models. The MCSS, 442, GP 2+2 and Turbo Buicks have a presence that you will never gain in an IROC or Trans Am; especially if you are fast in it and drive it well. Remember: a car is only as good as its driver; build what makes you happy.

Let me say right off that I'm not dissing the ability of the 3rd Gen F car, but the G cars are great handling chassis too. When you factor in which is easier and cheaper to get a LS series into, then the G-body is heads and shoulders above the 3rd Gen F-body. The Turbo Buicks were always tough cars to make handle due to the way the turbo comes on so hard, the engine are more set up for straight line acceleration. I worked with both Monte SS, Grand Nationals, Trans Ams, and Camaros built between 1980 and 1990 and know what each is capable of. If he wanted to keep the 1st Gen SBC then I would go with the 3rd Gen Camaro but when the engine swap gets thrown in..........G-body all the way.