wattslink mounted directly to rear

[liquidh8]

Hey all, haven't posted in a while, military has kept me in the desert for a year. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone has their watts link mounted diertly to the rear. I have an 81 buick century wagon powered by the LC2 turbo motor, I have a new moser 9 inch housed with the backbrace, and was thinking of fabbing up a watts link with the prop right on the housing.

something like this, but with the pivot in the back or the housing.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/0601sr_16_zhot_rod_rearendcoilovers-1.jpg


Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks guys:)

[aosborn]

First off, welcome back and thanks for your service!

What you are proposing is very common. Do some searching around on the web for photos and info. The mounts need to be built beefy, and if you make the pivot adjustable for height you can easily alter the roll center of the rear suspension.

Andy

[T-CHRGD]

Looks VERY interesting !!
I have a Fays2 bolt-in watts link from SC&C.
You should give Mark at SC&C a call. I am sure he could help. He is just north of Quakertown.

[The Stickman]

Damn I didn't know there was anyone that local to me. Kinda cool. BTW I have seen rear diff covers for GM 10 or 12 bolt rears that have a watts link on them.

[Derek69SS]

The disadvantage is that the RCH stays at the axle, which moves in relation to the car's GoG. If you get on a track with elevation changes, you'll notice a big swing in the balance of the car depending on how the suspension is loaded.

[JRouche]

The disadvantage is that the RCH stays at the axle, which moves in relation to the car's GoG. If you get on a track with elevation changes, you'll notice a big swing in the balance of the car depending on how the suspension is loaded.

And this is the best info. When watts links were just getting noticed for the average builder, you and I, they were heads and shoulders above the short pan hard bars. They were axle mounted pivot points. They have come a long way since then, thanks to Jim at Fayes and others.

A better system is to have the pivot point stationary to the body. They arent any more difficult to make. I just made one. And your roll center wont be jacking around as the body of the car moves around. JR

[neki67]

http://www.fays2.net

Not to rob Marcus (SC&C)from any bussiness, cause he's a great help (and so is Jim Fays) but the Fays website gives you loads of info on their Watts link.

I have also read somewhere (if memory serves me correct . . . .) that Jim is willing to sell you parts of it as well. Hope it will help you a bit more.

[liquidh8]

Thanks for all the quick replies guys.

[liquidh8]

Sorry for that post, me gov't computer is being a pain.


First off, welcome back and thanks for your service!
Thanks aosborn!



Looks VERY interesting !!
I have a Fays2 bolt-in watts link from SC&C.
You should give Mark at SC&C a call. I am sure he could help. He is just north of Quakertown.
t-charged, I saw that. I remember before I went over seas he was talking about it almost being ready for sale. I went to the site and checking it out, very nice piece. I would love to see that on a g-body with dual 3 inch pipes. That is my situation, a g-body wagon with 3 inch tailpipes, that I have to keep.



Damn I didn't know there was anyone that local to me. Kinda cool. BTW I have seen rear diff covers for GM 10 or 12 bolt rears that have a watts link on them.
Stickman, I'll be using a ford nine, the buzzin half dozen is eating up gm rears:banghead:


The disadvantage is that the RCH stays at the axle, which moves in relation to the car's GoG. If you get on a track with elevation changes, you'll notice a big swing in the balance of the car depending on how the suspension is loaded.
derek, what if I stay on tracks that are the same elevation? I planned on hitting that new track in jersey when the car is put back together, and maybe the pocono one. I would like to swing this wagon around before I put a new paint job on it, just in case. haha


JR, is it really that much better to have the pivot on the frame, and not the rear? I was thinking the packaging would be a little tighter if I mounted the pivot on the rear. I would make the pivot braket have adjustment holes in it for prop. What kinka car did you make your for? any pics?

BTW, my wagons are on the cardomain site if you guys wanna check em out. I'll be moving everything from the chevy wagon to the buick.

Thanks again for all the replies

[SDMAN]

Heres an older pic of my setup. Still a few mods to do to improve the mount, but the link and arms are where they need to be.

[liquidh8]

sdman, that's kinda what I would like to do. I wanted to make the diff mount for the prop have a few adjustments holes, but your set up is similar to what I have in mind. I already have a back brace on the housing, so I can brace the bracket to that too. I'll have to draw something up after I make a few measurements. This is in the planning stages now:idea:. I'll be doing the rear swap in the summer, too cold right now!

[Derek69SS]

derek, what if I stay on tracks that are the same elevation? I planned on hitting that new track in jersey when the car is put back together, and maybe the pocono one. I would like to swing this wagon around before I put a new paint job on it, just in case. haha
On a flat smooth track, the roll center won't move around much.

It's my opinion that if packaging won't allow the watts pivot attached to the frame, a long panhard bar would be the next best option. On a panhard setup, the RC moves 1/2 as much as the axle, where an axle-mounted watts the RC moves the same amount as the axle.

[JRouche]

JR, is it really that much better to have the pivot on the frame, and not the rear? I was thinking the packaging would be a little tighter if I mounted the pivot on the rear. I would make the pivot braket have adjustment holes in it for prop. What kinka car did you make your for? any pics?

From what I understand, yes. And its lighter (unsprung weight) to boot. My RC will be adjustable from around 6 inches up to 11 inches off the ground. My pivot mount is very compact, but built like a $h!t brick house. Sorry but the pics are not ready, soon. The car is a 62 nova with art morrison 4-link, air tech air ride suspension, ford 9 inch and disc brakes. Pics soon... JR

Before the air ride and watts link..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/wheels6-1.jpg

[thetoystore]

just courious where does everyone buy there watts link setups or atleast a kit? i'm looking for just the center pivot parts. thanx

[Twentyover]

Not too many kit parts out there. The propeller should be easy enough to fabricate...

[SDMAN]

When I looked, there were no generic links available anywhere. Since the car was in the chassis shop for 4 link work anyway, I just had them custom fab the watts link. They might be willing to duplicate what they did for me and sell it. If youre interested I can ask.

[T-CHRGD]

just courious where does everyone buy there watts link setups or atleast a kit? i'm looking for just the center pivot parts. thanx

I would check out www.fays2.net (http://www.fays2.net)
I think Jim sells parts separately.

[The WidowMaker]

jim does sell just parts. i got the bell crank and bearings for about $80 shipped. mines not complete, but heres a brief pic.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/23712235018-1.jpg?1234929054
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/02/23712233110-1.jpg?1234235494

[liquidh8]

dereck, after doing a few hours of reading, I think I will try and make it fit with a bracket from the frame as you and everyone suggested. THANKS guys!

thetoystore, I saw a generic kit from speedway motors, maybe you could use it? I would love to see a fays2 kit mounted up with tailpipes.

Also, my ford 9 doesn't have perfectly round axle tubes, I have a backbrace welded on it. Couldn't i just fab some brackets and weld them right to the rear? Should the have adjustment holes in them? I see the fays2 kit touts the ability to move the axle brackets around.

thewidowmaket, nice set-up there. I don't think my frame brace would hang as low.

JR, that little box nove looks nasty with those tires!!!

[JRouche]

thewidowmaket, nice set-up there. I don't think my frame brace would hang as low.

JR, that little box nove looks nasty with those tires!!!

:) Thanks. On my down plate Its not gonna take up much room. Its an oddity, cause of the lack of thinner steel tube in a "triangled" frame. I went the other direction, not better, just different. I used some heavy walled tube, 1/4" wall. Its heavy, but I weighed the steel structure and its about 20 lbs. and it was ok with me. But it gives me some room to work with, and its stout. It can be a jacking point (will be) for the car. I used to use the drive shaft loop, but it was so deep in the the car I couldnt get a floor jack under there with any movement on the handle.

And this "thing" I made is stout. I wouldnt even mind a tow truck pulling the car sideways from it. Its taking the entire lateral force. Take a winch and tow yer car sideways by the center pivot? Would you want to, you should. The entire weight of your car is gonna be applied to that link and framework on a good side load. If the rear is sliding (ok, not as much due to frictional losses), its the same thing. Tow truck anyone. So anyway, Ill post some pics, its an oddity, a lil diff. JR

[JRouche]

Also, my ford 9 doesn't have perfectly round axle tubes, I have a backbrace welded on it. Couldn't i just fab some brackets and weld them right to the rear? Should the have adjustment holes in them? I see the fays2 kit touts the ability to move the axle brackets around.

The adjustability with the rotating axle clamps is good if you want to change the pivot point (RC). If you set it all up at ride height you may not need that adjustability. JR

[liquidh8]

JR, I'd love to see more pics. Great craftsmanship right there!

I guess I would have to make some axletub brackets with a few holes in them for RC adjustability. I have spring height adjusters (spring cups with giant nuts), so I can change the ride as needed with different size tires and the weight in the car, so being able to change the RC is needed I think.

Thanks for the info again guys.

[The WidowMaker]

thewidowmaket, nice set-up there. I don't think my frame brace would hang as low.

ive got about 4" under it now, and the new tire with increased dia will raise it another 1". since its almost right at axle centerline when the wheels go up, so does the crossmember. the biggest advantage is being able to lower the RRCH a TON. i dont think ill ever need it at the lowest setting, but its there if i do.



The adjustability with the rotating axle clamps is good if you want to change the pivot point (RC). If you set it all up at ride height you may not need that adjustability. JR

i actually had a long conversation with jim fay and also ran some simulations (i should have just taken jims word), but there is NO!!!! need for any adjustability of the axle mounting pts. in jims words, or at least the best i can remember;

"how often is your car going to be at ride height while driving?"

if you think about it, hes exactally right. as long as the arms are at an equal and opposite angle, everything will function correctly and at some pt in the travel, you will have them perfectly level. if you look at my first pic, this is true. if i dropped the frame about another 1.5" the arms would be perfectly level.

my thought is that jim offers the clamps because they were an available product from many different sources, and they are easy for any diyer to install.

Tim

[The WidowMaker]

heres a pic of the proven lateral dynamics setup on the infamous bad penny. links arent level at ride height, and the mounts are welded to the housing.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[silver69camaro]

Obviously there is no need for the links to be parallel at any time - it just doesn't matter. The only thing you need is the make sure the vertical distance between the left and right chassis mounting points match the distace between pivot mount points. That's all. Anything else is wrong.

[JRouche]

i actually had a long conversation with jim fay and also ran some simulations (i should have just taken jims word), but there is NO!!!! need for any adjustability of the axle mounting pts. in jims words, or at least the best i can remember;

"how often is your car going to be at ride height while driving?"

if you think about it, hes exactally right. as long as the arms are at an equal and opposite angle, everything will function correctly and at some pt in the travel, you will have them perfectly level. if you look at my first pic, this is true. if i dropped the frame about another 1.5" the arms would be perfectly level.

my thought is that jim offers the clamps because they were an available product from many different sources, and they are easy for any diyer to install.

Tim

Yup, with the rod ends the way they swivel, the bars can be pointing up or down. I used them for a couple reasons.

One was it made my fabrication easier. That was a big plus for me. I wasnt gonna remove my rear end and disassemble it to weld on solid mounts. And strength. I would have had to use some extra steel welded to the housing to get the strength I wanted. The axle clamps I bought are 1/4" thick, I can put ALOT of heat to them and ensure a solid weld for the tubes and gussets. And I could have done the same thing to the axle housing. But to do it right I would have had to disassemble it.

So I tossed around the two methods and decided the clamps dont have any drawbacks and the solid welded mounts did, for me. And with 5 or 6 inches of adjustability on the pivot point if I move it I can still rotate the axle clamps to keep the bars level, although its not needed, I didnt mean to say they needed to be level, I may have given that impression. I think it looks better if they are not too severely angled, completely a personal appearance issue there.

Bottom line, I dont see a negative using axle clamps or a solid mount. One aspect I havent drawn up on paper yet, just tossed around in my head. But will the angle of the bars, fore and aft be changed with a solid mount when you change the pivot point? Seems like it would. You can lengthen the bars a lil with the rod ends, is it enough? I dont know how much more bar length you will need when going from top to bottom of the pivot point. Prolly not enough that the rod ends cant adjust for. Might be more with short bars compared to long bars.

I havent seen too much talk on the angle fore and aft. I have alway assumed it should be fairly vertical. What if they are angled fore or aft abit? Prolly not much in the way the watts is supposed to work, again, maybe more loading on the rod ends. I can kinda see how it would want to push the rear end fore or aft going through a turn if they werent vertical (from looking at the wheel side of the axle) but they wont move the axle due to the trailing arms. So its taken up in stress on the components.

OH!!! By the way.. Your car is very SWEET!!!! Thats some car!!!! JR

[The WidowMaker]

i wish that was my car. thats steve rupp's "bad penny".

i agree with you on the clamps. i was pulling the 12 bolt apart anyway to have it shortened and 9" ford ends installed, so welding on it wasnt an issue.

im not sure what you mean by fore and aft. are you talking about the bell crank being cocked, or the axle ends of the arms actually being forward of the bell crank mounts?

[JRouche]

i wish that was my car. thats steve rupp's "bad penny".

i agree with you on the clamps. i was pulling the 12 bolt apart anyway to have it shortened and 9" ford ends installed, so welding on it wasnt an issue.

im not sure what you mean by fore and aft. are you talking about the bell crank being cocked, or the axle ends of the arms actually being forward of the bell crank mounts?

Ooops, just reliezed that was BP..

The bars moving fore or aft (as seen from the wheel hub looking in toward the pivot) was something I knew I had stuck in my head from somewhere. Now I remember. Its not applicable to the fixed, welded in axle mounts. Just to the adjustable rotating clamps. As the clamp is rotated through its adjustment zone the end of it goes through an arc it will get shorter or longer in relationship to the fixed pivot point. So the bars will move forward and backwards, slightly as the clamps are adjusted. Am I imagining this movement?? LOL Wont be the first time my head has played mind games on me. And its prolly so minor of a movement that it is negligible, but I dont know, yet. I will measure the movement and see. JR

[liquidh8]

Awsome info guys, thank you again. I learned alot here.

My ford nine isn't assembled yet, so welding to the housing isn't an issue. I can bolt it to the jig and weld the clamps on once the location is figured out. I'll be tackeling this in the spring. I really need to have tailpipes for PA inspection. Not only that, I don't want the 3 inch magnaflows resonating under my wagon, "headache".

So I'll be setting the rear up with no springs, the body in the air, and the tires on so i can simulate ride height by jacking the rear. I'll get the bars as close to level as possible, (but not a big deal if a little off) I can tack the brackets in place, then pull the rear and weld the brackets. Nice. I may be using the FAYS2 if i can find some pics with tailpipes between now and the spring/summer. Maybe I could buy the system with out the brackets and I can fab my own? I''m sure i can fit em, it sucks because the exhaust is thermal coated, and if i cut am reweld angles, Ughhh, messed up coating. lol

[JRouche]

So I'll be setting the rear up with no springs, the body in the air, and the tires on so i can simulate ride height by jacking the rear. I'll get the bars as close to level as possible, (but not a big deal if a little off) I can tack the brackets in place, then pull the rear and weld the brackets. Nice. I may be using the FAYS2 if i can find some pics with tailpipes between now and the spring/summer. Maybe I could buy the system with out the brackets and I can fab my own? I''m sure i can fit em, it sucks because the exhaust is thermal coated, and if i cut am reweld angles, Ughhh, messed up coating. lol

I made some bars that were at the perfect ride height to simulate the shockwaves I have. Bolted in place of the shockwaves. So I can weld and grind without any worries. And they are stout enough to support the entire car. Kinda nice to have. Just a thought. JR

[The WidowMaker]

i dont think you will find any tail pipes that fit through any watts. its going to be a box of mandrel bends and my imagination for me, and ill either coat it or just use 304 and polish it.

[SDMAN]

i dont think you will find any tail pipes that fit through any watts. its going to be a box of mandrel bends and my imagination for me, and ill either coat it or just use 304 and polish it.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. Now that the car is out of the chassis shop, job 1 is getting the complete exhaust system installed. From the motor/headers back to the mufflers is a straight shot, but going thru the 4-link, over the rearend and avoiding the watts linkage will make the tailpipes a real challenge. Current plan is to stick with the oval pipe all the way back, but if my fab guy starts to chase me around the shop with a sharp screwdriver we might transition to round tailpipe prior to going over the rearend. Im already loosing most of the trunk anyway...its not like oval tailpipes is going to buy me anything.

[JRouche]

On my setup its not the watts link thats in the way, its the 4-link bars, and my stupid gas tank, it takes up all the room. My exhaust is tight all along the drive line. Then I have to figure out a way to bring it out wider to exit the rear, but I have my 4-link bars in the way. I cant slip the exhaust below the 4-link, it would be too low. So Im looking to slide it up, above the bars, between the frame and bars, not much room. JR

[The WidowMaker]

mines not complicated because of the watts, its complicated because of the 4 link, coilovers, gas tank and the watts. lots of stuff to wiggle around. i made my watts cross high enough that i can get it under. i actually spent hours figuring out where to put stuff, and the exhaust was a huge priority.

Tim

[liquidh8]

Sounds as if you guys have aot more to work around to get your tailpies to fit. I may not have such a big deal then.

[poormans69]

I think this thread has me thinking this mod is a definite possibility. Great write up. I guess this will be a springtime project. Thanks for all the info and pics.