LQ9 6.0 VS. Gen1 406 SB

[daytonayellaz]

This may be a stupid question, but gotta ask... I have a 406 SB all new sitting on the stand to go in my 67 camaro. Behind it will be a T56. I have a local guy who has a LQ9 real cheap. He has no wiring harness or anything like that, just the motor. He said I could put a carb. stlye intake on it and run a msd box and wouldnt need a computer or anything.

Question..... Is there any real advantage running a carburated LQ9 (no computer etc.) over my carberated 406 ??

I dont want to get into a big expense for this motor if there is no real advantage, especially with a new 406 on the stand.

Thanks!
Travis

[6'9"Witha69]

How 'built' is the 406? That is part of the comparison there.

The LQ9 has a weight advantage and upgrades are coming available real quick.

BTW, if I saw your location about 2 weeks ago, I'da been right there with you. Damn the colts have given me heartache over the last many seasons.

[maldo]

hmmm I am also curious to what people think about this also.
I would lean toward the LQ9 ... just do the better head design and weight advantage is def a plus (but then again it will depend on which heads you run on your 406)

[slowcamaro]

I have a built 406 and wish I would have went LS architecture...Though fuel injection really makes it shine.

[daytonayellaz]

The 406 is built to work down low...Im running dart aluminum pro 1 platnium 200's. Estimating 475 hp and tq. The botom end is a eagle 400 crank that has been internally balanced. Eagle H-beam rods. Speedpro pistons. Full roller cam, cant remeber the specs, (540 lift?) but again meant to work down low. Edelbrock performer rpm air gap intake and holley 780 carb.

Let me hear what you all think...

[daytonayellaz]

I have a built 406 and wish I would have went LS architecture...Though fuel injection really makes it shine.

This thread comparison is a carb to carb comparison. And want to hear more thoughts on that!!

But I sure do like the idea of the LQ9 and fuel injection!, but then comes computer/ wiring and all the expense wrapped up in that. This guy has none of that. I just cant afford it. Unless anyone has any ideas on this?

[streetk14]

I think I'd do the LQ9 just because of the modern design and how nice and easy they are to work with. The factory rating on the LQ9 is 345 hp and 380 lb-ft, but you could make some real power with a cam and head swap.

[86Cutlass383SR]

I've been struggling with the same situation. I've got a built 383 with Accel SuperRam injection with an aftermarket T56 just needing to be put together and installed. AFR 190 heads, full roller Comp cam,... the works.

Do I sell it all (for less than I have in it) and go with an LS motor and have to basically start all over again. New ecm, harness, headers, etc, etc. I can't afford it all...especially all at once.

Buy the LQ9 cheaply now while you can and put it in storage. Gather parts as you can, either new or used. When you have everything, then drop it in. Sell your old motor and re-coup some funds if you want after it's running.

[WS6]

if both you guys have future goals of even more power, I would go LQ9. If you'll be happy with the performance of your current engines and don't desire anything more, stay with what you have. BY that I meant don't go LSx just for the sake of going LSx. Power is power regardless of if it comes from a built 4 banger or the latest Gen 4. Many of the people that switch to LSx are either starting with no motor, have such a built BBC/SBC that it's a pain to drive, or they want FI. The other is that they race and need the latest and greatest to stay competitive. If this is not your situation, stay with what you have.

The exception for you Doug is that SR intake is a pain to deal with. I'd dropped that thing in a heartbeat and go to the Holley Stealth Ram. Sure the SR works great, it really does, but you're going to hate it every time you have to go in there and do any work that requires dealing with that intake.

daytona, carbed LSx engines work great but just like a SBC, they lose a lot of drivability with the more modified they are. The EFI is what makes the modified LSx engines a pleasure to drive. The LSx can make more power with less drivability issues on a carb typically too. That goes back to my are you happy with what your current engine produces comments though.

[86Cutlass383SR]

[/quote]The exception for you Doug is that SR intake is a pain to deal with. I'd dropped that thing in a heartbeat and go to the Holley Stealth Ram. Sure the SR works great, it really does, but you're going to hate it every time you have to go in there and do any work that requires dealing with that intake.[/quote]

Yeah, it is a pain. I've dealt with it a few years now. But there aren't as many of them on cars around here and I like the "what the he!! kinda intake is that..." look on peoples faces.

[/quote]daytona, carbed LSx engines work great but just like a SBC, they lose a lot of drivability with the more modified they are. The EFI is what makes the modified LSx engines a pleasure to drive. The LSx can make more power with less drivability issues on a carb typically too. That goes back to my are you happy with what your current engine produces comments though.[/quote]

That's my main reason of wanting to go LSx---drivability. I'm a true gearhead and sure I'd like as much HP to the back tires as I can reasonably get. My car is a driver and I feel an LS engine can get more power with better MPG than my current 383 can. From the guys on thirdgen.org my setup with an excellant tune can get 20-25 mpg and if I can get 375-400 to the tires I'll be doing good. A simular LS can get 500+ to the tires and still get the same 20-25 mpg if not better. I don't know for sure, never had an LS before.

BTW, the MSD box, if I'm not mistaken will still need "tuned" (not sure if you have to use a laptop or not) as the timing curves will still need to be optimized for each individual engine. I may be out in left field on this so correct me if I'm wrong. If I do an LS, I'd rather not "de-engineer" what GM has done with fuel injection. Everyone has their own preferances though.

[Shawn MacAnanny]

The Lq9 is a FAR superior design. If not for the 15 degree heads or the 6 bolt mains, then for the ignition system the carebureted system runs. Mine is entirely tunable with a laptop (all timing and vac advance curves with a MAP sensor) as well as a 2 step rev limiter, and a nitrous timing retard wire.

The MSD box does come with timing pills but all run over 36 degrees of timing which can be too much for these engines. To put things into perspective with your 406, i have a medium sized cam in my 346, headers, intake, a 750 carb, MSD box, and STOCK UNPORTED ls1 heads (not even ls6) and my engine makes somewhere around 525hp (420rwhp). I think your 406 would have trouble acheiving that without head work. Oh and also i can manage 20mpg out of my setup easy. Putting 500 to the wheels can be tricky but if you have good heads and set your valve train up right you can do it (with a 5.7L 6.0L will be easier)

MSD box comes wth wiring harness for $320, Victor JR intake is $300. You will need a set of coil packs for the LS1 which you can get from $40-100. Then you can use the carb you have on it. Also your LQ9 has flattop pistons as opposed to the LQ4s dish pistons. LQ9s only came in Silverado SS's and i think SSrs. The Lq9 will take great to any mods.

If you do go with the Lq9 and need any help with the carb setup i have quite a few hours experience setting mine up and tuning it.

[6'9"Witha69]

LQ9 came in Escalades and Denalis as well.

[Shawn MacAnanny]

Oh i guess that was before the L92 then.

[6'9"Witha69]

Correct.

[jaybee]

I'd pick LSx architecture for sure if starting from scratch. If I had a strong, streetable SB already on the engine stand I'd use that and wouldn't put myself through all the effort for what will turn out to be a relatively small gain.

[daytonayellaz]

This is exactly what I was looking for... As much comparison info as posible.
Thanks!!

[tom_a]

I would think you would have to throw alot more money by buying a used LQ9. Headers, oil pan, accessories, LSX carb intake etc assuming you have everything for the 406. There are plenty of cool cars running around with SBC. I debated the same thing. I had a new SBC Alum head crate engine got jaded by the LSX , sold the SBC at a loss. My only regret is I am not driving it yet. I guess what I am saying is some of us have spent years changing direction while never really getting anything accomplished. Myself included :machine:. The next project will be one that I can drive and upgrade. My advice would be put whatever you have together and drive it. If after you drive it and still desire a LS engine buy it and gather everything you need so it is only down for a few weeks.

[70camaro406]

I agree with jaybee. If starting from scratch, I'd be all over an LSX motor. But since you already have a pretty stout 406 sitting on your engine stand ready to go, I'd use what you already have. Your current engine sounds like it's gonna run well. You won't be disappointed with a well-built 406. I can attest to that, as I have no plans to change anything on mine while my car is being transformed from street/strip to pro-touring.

[Shawn MacAnanny]

The LSx will make power so extremely reliably though. I had a 2001 Z06 that put down 465rwhp 422rwtq almost 4 years ago and i drove it every day to work. Grenaded an MN12 T56 on a 1-2 shift, shattered a differential, but never any engine problems in the 20k i had it modded. I had an outter valve spring break in the first 200 miles from a deffective set of springs but nothing was harmed. Engine had 60k on it before i did the heads cam.

I also got 28mpg on the highway and 21mpg around town with it. The engines are just so damned efficient.

Carb intake - $300
MSD 6010 with harness- $340
Moroso 7qt pan with remote filter, varios fittings and gaskets - $500
Hooker ceramic long tube headers - $650
Demon 750 carb - $400
Camshaft custom spec - $400
pushrods to length - $100
patriot spring kit good to 650 lift and 7300 rpm (atleast what ive tested them too rpm wise) - $250 with seals
Stock rockers are 1.7 and are fine, stonger than aftermarket ones minus the needle bearings which can be replaced with truion bearings by harland sharp
Stock heads are fine although the best set of heads will only cost you $3000 for this engine you can get budget heads with those valve springs and seal installed new for $1100 from Patriot and make a solid 450rwhp with a cam.

I have prices of everything i have spent. Not everything was neccessary but i went with whatever i felt would make the most power.


On of the BIGGEST up sides to me in the LS1 gasket design. In my opinion, it's flawless. Every single gasket is reusable (minus head gaskets) even though they say not to they are. The are aluminum gaskets with rubber orings. You willl NEVER have a leak and NEVER have to use RTV.

The LS1s coil on plug ignition is amazing as well. The coils rarely EVER go bad. When i had my engine out with 60k on it i still had crosshatching on the cylinder walls. I have a 12k LS4 in my dining room that has almost no carbon even on the pistons and the cylinders look like i just honed them.

I can say enough good things about the LS1. I have prices, pictures, tunes, and hundreds of hours of personal information on carbed LSx engines. The 406 woudl be great, but not ideal if you want that extra 'wow' affect. I swapped out a built 400 pontiac to put mine in.

[CarlC]

I agree with the others that the LSX series of engines is superior to GEN1, however, the basic engine is still an airpump. Throw a big cam and carb on an LSX and many of the drawbacks that make the LSX desirable go away. The LSX engine management system is what makes the engine work so well.

Making an LSX retrofit can be an easy or difficult task depending on your detail threshold. If all you want is to stuff the engine in, screw the ECM to the fenderwell, and plug in the wiring harness, then the time and effort is minimal. To modify the engine harness yourself, integrate it into thethe others on the car, route them nicely, route the fuel lines safely and cleanly, etc. will eat up a ton of time and effort. However much you think it might take to do it really right, double it. I spent far, far more time on the electrical and fuel systems than on the mechanical portion.

I agree that if you have a good setup all ready to go and funds are short, then it's a simple decision. Put the engine in and then wait until the right LSX deal comes along.

[Shawn MacAnanny]

I should mention my Z06 was EFI that post made it seem like it was carbed., My 68 is carbed.

The LSX engine is still very streetable carbed, even with a large carb on it. I started mine yesterday, sat for 2 weeks or so, 28 degrees out, fired right up and idled with about 10 seconds of holding the throttle at about 1200rpm (i have mine idle around 700rpm) i do have an electric choke though. I also get some cam surge around 1500rpm or so cruising through 30mph zones in 4th but i attibute alot of that to my having a single plane, my efi z06 even had some cam surge.

With the MSD 6010 you still maintain a distributorless ignition system using the facotry 8 coils from the ls1, timing is determined from the LS1 crank and cam sensors and just as programable as the LS1 ignition system with a MAP advance (no provision for MAF though) just not fuel controls. I promise you a well set up LS1 carbureted will make MORE hp than the exact same setup EFI. carburetors run MUCH colder fuel systems and a much more direct air intake system.

[New 97ss]

I hate to intentionally deviate from the intent here, but the LQ9 with ported and polished 6.2L heads and an Eaton TVS2300 put down approx. 900hp/900tq at 2500 rpms. Thats saying something. If you every get the urge to go Fuel injected the LQ9 platform is miles ahead of the SBC. Unfortunately, I have nothing of any value to add to the carb to carb comparo. All I can say is that I have an LQ9 in my Silverado SS, and I love the thing.

[daytonayellaz]

Yeah, I would go with the LQ9 if I wanted to deal with all the other stuff to make it work in my 67 camaro, but as others have said. I have a new 406 sitting on the stand (need some aluminum heads for it, if anyone knows of anything???) that needs to go in the car! If I dont finish what I have I wont have any chance at making the power tour this year. I have to stay focused and get this car finished with what I have. My money left to build the car is almost gone now, cant change direction at this point. I want to thank everyone who has posted!! You all have helped me to stay the course, even though there are better options.

[70camaro406]

I have a new 406 sitting on the stand (need some aluminum heads for it, if anyone knows of anything???)

Get some AFR's and don't look back. Once you start driving that with those heads, you'll forget all about those LS motors. :drive::headbang:

[daytonayellaz]

Get some AFR's and don't look back. Once you start driving that with those heads, you'll forget all about those LS motors. :drive::headbang:

Thanks Wayne! by the way I used to own a 70 ss/rs about 10 years ago. I have always regreted selling that car!

[maldo]

Get some AFR's and don't look back. Once you start driving that with those heads, you'll forget all about those LS motors. :drive::headbang:


agree heads are the key to your combo ...

[4086D9]

I say keep the 406. Down the road you can build an LSX motor. Im running a mild 408 sbc and spank them all the time at the track. Like other have said get a nice set of AFR Elimator heads and match it with the right camshaft. You will make 500HP no problem....

[daytonayellaz]

Thanks Wayne and 4086D9! Im trying to find a nice used set of AFR 195's...Anybody know where any are? Is it OK to buy used on these?

Thanks again!

[daytonayellaz]

agree heads are the key to your combo ...

Thanks for the reply James!