Upper Ball Joint don't fit my stock spindle?

[Buffalobillpatrick]

New after-market upper BJ don't fit my stock spindle. Not even close.

Does anyone know where I can find out what the ID measurements S/B for my stock spindle upper BJ tapers?

I measured my upper taper at .512" & .623"

1972 Monte SB. I know it's a 7* taper & my stock BJ fit perfect, no sign of damage.

I will call seller tomorrow & would like to know if the problem is my spindle or his BJ.

Thanks in advance. BBP

[gearheads78]

Is this the problem you are having? If so there is a solution in the thread.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50645

[Buffalobillpatrick]

Thanks Richard,

That link shows my exact problem with the tall HD Howe BJ's

I bought the SC&C Stage 2+ package, adjustable UCA's & 4 tall Howe BJ's, upper being HD.

I talked to Markus & he described how to radius the top BJ hole in my spindle.

So I just did it with the various primitive tools that I have on hand, various size drill bits & a chainsaw file. A 45* reamer would have worked nice.

I checked fitment as I went as I didn't want to remove anymore of the tapered engagement surface than I had to.

I ended up with a radius showing about 1/8" of new metal.

I checked fitment by coating the tapered bolt area of the BJ with black marker & torquing to 60 ftlbs. Top one looks perfect now.

These tall BJ's look like longer levers to me & need to fit perfectly.

I marked & checked fitment on my lower BJ. I would like to clean up the lower tapered hole in my spindle a little, but I don't have access to a 7* BJ reamer. They cost about $80 new but I would probably never use it again.

BBP

[Buffalobillpatrick]

I am the original owner of this 72 Monte.

My spindles & upper BJ''s were put in by GM back in 72 & have never been removed.

I did replace the lower BJ's about 20 years ago. Good thing I still have that Pickle-fork, the BJ's were in there tight.

SC&C owner Markus told me that this was a very rare problem, maybe 1/1,000 & that GM had reamed my upper spindle BJ hole too big.

He couldn't or wouldn't tell me what the spec. is, as I was trying to tell him about my upper taper being at .512" & .623"

It seems to me that he has this speech pretty much worked out, (considering how rare it must be given) & wants to roll through it pretty fast without my interruptions with questions. I found it very hard to get a word in edge-wise. He seems like a good guy & interested in customer satisfaction.

He did offer to exchange these tall Howe HD upper BJ's for the standard tall uppers that don't have this troublesome abrupt increase in size & refund the $40 difference. I would pay the shipping back to him & he would pay the shipping out to me. He also offered to rework my spindle BJ tapers & I would pay shipping both ways.

I decided to rework my spindles. Enough with the shipping.

I haven't got around to cutting off part of my upper A-arm ears that's required.

All-in-all I'm a little annoyed by this rework business. I think the bulge is just too close to the threads.

I sure hope that these parts work as well as the many threads say they do.

BBP

[gearheads78]

I love this stuff but I think the 1/1000 is a little stretch or I need to buy a lottery ticket. My 66 is a low mile car and never been apart and and also had a pair of great condition Lemans spindles in my stash. All 4 spindles have the same exact issue. I don't mind making it work thats what building a hot rod is about but I would think it would not hurt for the shoulder to be a little higher for every 1000th person that buys them. :hmm:

[Marcus SC&C]

The stud tapers are built to exactly original GM specs. They`re held to very exacting tolerances. The original spindles...not so much. Chinese repro spindles? Much worse. That`s why we mention verifying ball joint fit in the instructions. It takes all of 5 minutes to chamfer the top edge of the ball joint tapers in the spindles if necessary to get a perfect fit. Having perfect CNC parts as a go-no go gauge makes it pretty obvious that GM didn`t hold these to very tight specs. We sell these all day,every day and get a call about fittment like this maybe once every couple months. We tell them what to do to get a good fit and 15mins. later they`re good to go. As gearheads78 said it`s all just part of hot rodding. We are going to raise the shoulder just a smidge mostly to accomodate the loose as a goose tapers of the new Chicom spindles which will help on GM spindles on the large side of spec too. At the end of the day though you`ll still have to check fit and you`ll still have to make it right if it`s not. That`s hotrodding. If it was too easy anybody could do it. :) Mark SC&C

[Buffalobillpatrick]

I have received information on another board that nominal spec. for the top large end of the Upper BJ tapered hole is .625"

I have no idea what the spec. range is.

Mine measured .623" so mine are a little UNDER SIZED???

I just bought a 1.5" in 12" BJ reamer (slightly over 7*) & would like to clean up my spindle holes. Better only remove a little.

BBP

[Buffalobillpatrick]

The following post was copied with permission from
Doug (Duck Dodgers)

"Bill,

Thanks for asking, and yes, you may copy it over there.

I would like to see the original factory specs for machining the taper. A +/-.005 tolerance would be normal for this kind of operation.

Plus, again if you cleaned up the tapers you are SOL.

And, just to give you my creds, I've been a mechanical engineer for 30+ years. Did engineering drawings for A.J. Watson (yes, the Indy fabricator/winner), worked for two Indy teams (Maxson and Travelon Trailer) and Joe Hunt Magnetos back in the day.

New to Chevelles but what the heck. I had the same issues. My Son drives the car so I'm not inclined to be tolerant.

These ball joints need fixing!! Denial does't help (and it's not just a river in Egypt..pardon the pun)

Keep me posted.

Regards, Doug"


http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256675


"It takes VERY little diameter difference to sink the ball joint too far.

Taper is 1.5" per foot. This is slightly more than 7*. Let's call it 7*.

So for every .001 oversize we get; X=.001/sin7 = .001/.121 = .0083 deeper in the socket!

The shoulder on the Howe joints is way too close for even factory tolerances, as BBP found out, not to mentioned the imports. Nominal is .625. BBP measured .623, undersize at that.

Consider if you used a reamer to clean-up some spindles and only took out 4 thou. Not unreasonable. The ball joint seats 1/32" deeper!

C'mon guys...this is a problem. I'll say it again; Howe needs to fess up and quit blaming the "evil" import spindles. BBP's stock spindle didn't work either.

Howe makes a good product but, the shoulder needs to be moved up on these.

My $.02 again."

BBP

[Duck Dodgers]

Howe and SC&C need to get back to reality. :enguard:

Quote from SC&C:
"The stud tapers are built to exactly original GM specs. They`re held to very exacting tolerances. The original spindles...not so much." (Leaving out the references to the "evil" imports.)

What's the spec on the shoulder on OEM BJ's??? There isn't one because...there isn't one! (Shoulder that is.) Your taper may be dead nuts but, if they don't fit real world (OEM or other in spec) spindles because the (non-original) shoulder hits, they need to be changed!

The OEM and OEM type replacement ball joints were designed/machined to accommodate the spindle taper dimensions and tolerances. Remember GM had gazillions of engineers doing nothing but tolerance stack-ups and manufacturing processes. The s**t fits!

And...I dare SC&C and/or Howe to give me their BJ machining dimensions and tolerances. Plus if they're so sure they're to spec they must have the original GM specs for the spindles.

:idea:Pass them along. I'll do a tolerance stack-up. (I have 30+ years mechanical engineering experience.) If you're right, I'll say so but NOT without actual, verified, dimensions.

[Marcus SC&C]

I guess hotrodding is dead. 10 mins. of parts fittment is the end of the world now. The taper is the critical part,it`s 7* and fits. The shoulder is the only point in contention here and it fits all of our (and Howes) sample A and F body spindles perfectly. FWIW the spindles I have here measure between .621"-.623". The .625" spec is the GM max. allowable wear spec. The large end of the Plus series ball joint taper is .626" (without the radius). It`s easy to see why we call it a go-no go gauge. Out of all the ones we`ve sold only a couple folks have had small issue with it and were able to fit them in a few minutes by putting a slight chamfer on the top of the spindle tapers, get on with their lives and enjoy the new found geometry and performance gains.
For circle track racers who ream their spindles they can just as easily put a slight chamfer at the top of the,now larger than stock bore.
Honestly I`m shocked at the hosility coming from James ("Buffalo Bill"). I`m not at all sure where that`s coming from. I`m pretty sure I never kicked his dog or anything like that. I offered to exchange the X-tall studs for the non shouldered std. tall ball joints (which still yield very respectable geometry gain) and refund the difference. I offered to chamfer the spindles slightly and verify the ball joint fit for free! I don`t know what more we can do except fly to his house and install them for him (not doing that). I`ve extended every possible courtesy. I don`t get it. James has stated in this thread that a slight chamfer had the ball joints fitting perfectly,verified by checking the pattern. Now he wants to ream the spindles oversized...for what if the pattern is great now? Okay... We`ll talk with James and do whatever we have to do to make hims a happy camper just as we would with any one else.
We HAVE seen much more spindle taper variation in the ever more common Chicom repro spindles. Measure a few and see for yourself. As I stated earlier we are already raising the shoulder on the Plus series studs to compensate. We`ve moved it enough that if the taper still doesn`t fit your spindle is really shot and that`s all there is to it. There will be no argument about that I assure you. So...revised parts are coming and if he would like James is welcome to the first ones.
If any of our other clients has a minor fittment issue like this and isn`t willing to take 10mins. to fit them just give us a call and we`ll gladdly exchange them for you at no cost.
Gee, who knew you could resolve anything without an internet witch hunt? Mark SC&C

[Duck Dodgers]

Mark,

In the past year and a half or so I have seen this discussed at length several times on Chevelles.com where I usually hang out. Effects have been from minor (clunking, beat-up spindles etc.) up to a case of a failed ball joint. I also had this situation on my Son’s Chevelle and posted about it. It is not a one in thousand incident.

Distilling your comment on sizes; the diameter range is .621 to .625 so call it .623+/-.002.

BBP’s ball joint socked measured .623, right at nominal and it required chamfering to clear.

Based on this it would be relatively safe to say that 50% of all (to spec.) spindles need to be chamfered. This isn’t a case of a few extreme tolerance parts causing a fit issue.

The requirement to grind down a portion of the upper arm mounting bracket (on A-bodys) was covered in the Stage II instructions. This is probably why I haven’t seen it brought up in any posts. It was adequately explained.

You state this “is a minor fitment issue”. Not so. Unless you are specifically looking for this can be easily overlooked. Also, it can have very serious consequences and therefore merits the attention it’s getting on the forums. It should also be covered in the instructions.

You have always taken the position that this is the customer’s problem and statements like: “I guess hotrodding is dead”, “..I never kicked his dog.”, “..only a couple of folks.” are sarcastic and dismissive. They accomplish nothing other than setting a confrontational tone. It can be difficult not to respond in kind making constructive discussion difficult.

You stated that “revised parts are coming”. I take this to mean that the interfering shoulder is being moved to provide adequate clearance. I, for one will say “Thank You” for taking this pro-active step making your product better and safer.

[Buffalobillpatrick]

I don't agree that I was "hostile". I think Marcus went over the top in his last post.

I have worked this out with Marcus @ SC&C

I'm exchanging my upper tall Howe HD BJ's (bulge) for the standard tall Howe BJ's (no-bulge)

BBP