GM Shrinking to 4 brands.

[bigvegan]

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/12/official-gm-shrinking-to-four-brands-pontiac-to-four-models/

"In an interview Sunday with Automotive News (http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090111/ANA06/901119929/1197) (sub. req'd), Troy Clarke, GM's North American president, said that General Motors will be able to make good on its promise to Congress (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/02/gm-asks-congress-to-kickstart-its-heart-with-ambitious-plan/) to drastically cut costs. Clarke said that GM will now focus its "product and marketing resources" on Buick, Chevrolet, Cadillac and GMC. That would leave Pontiac, Saturn, Saab (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/09/gm-sees-no-buyers-for-saab/) and HUMMER in automotive limbo. As part of that same plan presented to lawmakers, GM said it would sell or close Saturn. And since no one has yet stepped forward with cash, the future is not at all certain for the unique brand despite what GM's marketing VP Mark LaNeve says (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/24/gms-laneve-we-are-completely-behind-saturn/). ..."

[trapin]

I won't miss Pontiac, Saab or Hummer but I really though Saturn had come along way since the 90's. Their product line looks the best it ever has. My wife has an Outlook. Best damn vehicle we've ever owned, and the best looking. Too bad.

[dhutton]

I don't understand why they would keep GMC, the vehicles are very similar to Chevy. It seems most GMC sales would be converted to Chevy sales. At least Saturn vehicles were unique. I don't think many Saturn sales will convert to Chevy or Buick sales so they will likely be lost.

[Slow Ride]

I'll miss Pontiac and Saturn alot. The G8 and GTO were the only cars I've even thought about buying the last few years. As for Saturn, my wife and I love here '04 Vue Redline, and would probably replace it at some time with another Saturn.

[MrQuick]

This is good news, im glad they are moving to fix and not throwing $200k parties. Also they are fixing the dealer on every block bull-s***. Taking a lesson learned from Toyota.


I'll miss Pontiac. The reasoning behind the GMC line staying is due to over seas sales. I maybe wrong but GM globaly is still top seller. Please correct me if im wrong Tony.

quick

[Damn True]

The Aura, G6 and Malibu are essentially the same car, as is the Vue and a few of the other GM "crossovers". The Astra IMO is a great little car and I really think it ought to be brought into the Chevy fold as a "world-car" in the vein of the Ford Escort/Focus.

The G8 ought to become an Impala or Caprice. Throw an efficient v6 in that thing along with the V8/GXP option and you'd have a solid full-size platform.....a wagon would work here too.

[hdesign]

I hate to see any of them go but IMHO this appears to be a good move at this point. To me GM always seemed to have too many poles in the water to be at optimum effectiveness and efficiency. Now they're being forced into a decision where something should have been done long ago.

In my world....As far as American brands go.....Chevy has to stay obviously, Caddy is the premium/lux brand, GMC should be commercial/industrial only (no more overlap with Chevy) and I would have probably hung on to Saturn as green brand or Pontiac as a specialty/enthusiast brand. However, why have a sport specific brand if you can't produce anything better than the Vette anyway?

I really have no use for Buick, it's a half step towards a luxury brand I think. The only people that buy will be losing their licenses in the next couple years anyway. Good luck turning that ship around in a potential buyer's eyes. It'll take years for that to happen, can they afford the investment?

[dhutton]

Buick is big seller in China. I couldn't believe how many of them are there, it is a prestigious brand. I think that is the reason they are keeping it.

[Mike Holleman]

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/12/official-gm-shrinking-to-four-brands-pontiac-to-four-models/

"In an interview Sunday with Automotive News (http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090111/ANA06/901119929/1197) (sub. req'd), Troy Clarke, GM's North American president, said that General Motors will be able to make good on its promise to Congress (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/02/gm-asks-congress-to-kickstart-its-heart-with-ambitious-plan/) to drastically cut costs. Clarke said that GM will now focus its "product and marketing resources" on Buick, Chevrolet, Cadillac and GMC. That would leave Pontiac, Saturn, Saab (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/09/gm-sees-no-buyers-for-saab/) and HUMMER in automotive limbo. As part of that same plan presented to lawmakers, GM said it would sell or close Saturn. And since no one has yet stepped forward with cash, the future is not at all certain for the unique brand despite what GM's marketing VP Mark LaNeve says (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/24/gms-laneve-we-are-completely-behind-saturn/). ..."

What doesn't make sense here is Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac, GMC dealers will lose the small car product without Pontiac. Our local dealer does way more with Pontiac than the other three as far as volume.

[subtlez28]

My wife has an Outlook. Best damn vehicle we've ever owned, and the best looking. Too bad.

I'm glad to hear you like your Outlook so much, we will pick up my wife's new Chevy Traverse later this week (same platform). But, best looking... I would think your 68 would get that nod:razz:.

I also thought Pontiac was doing well, especially w the G6. On the other hand if they make the G8 a chevy, and make it a little more basic, I may grab one. I also hope they make a Chevy version of the Solstice.

[derekf]

It could be interesting if they pare down to four brands - especially given the cars in the pipeline and the ones that would get orphaned -- the possible future Pontiac Ute? It could be an El Camino after all.
G8? Chevelle.
Sky/Solstice would have to move, obviously. Not sure if there's a proper retro name to give them; it's definitely not a Corvair for the 21st century, and I don't know that the Vega was that popular.
Don't know the SUV/minivan side well enough to even guess at them.

[Steve1968LS2]

Why ditch Saturn?? It's far mor unique than some of the other "rehash" brands.

Can someone tell me why we need a Silverado AND a Sierra??

[shortrack]

Can someone tell me why we need a Silverado AND a Sierra??

traditionally GM dealers were set up as Chev,Olds,Cadillac dealers or Pontiac,Buick dealers

GMC was created to give the Pontiac, Buick dealers a truck to sell....thus Pontiac, Buick, GMC

[Randy67]

It could be interesting if they pare down to four brands - especially given the cars in the pipeline and the ones that would get orphaned -- the possible future Pontiac Ute? It could be an El Camino after all.


According to a news article (which I can't find right now), the Ute has been cancelled, at least for now. Too bad, it is pretty darn cool.

[WS6]

traditionally GM dealers were set up as Chev,Olds,Cadillac dealers or Pontiac,Buick dealers

GMC was created to give the Pontiac, Buick dealers a truck to sell....thus Pontiac, Buick, GMC

correct. GMC was designed so that non chevy dealers could sell trucks.

Ultimately this decision makes sense. I may not agree on the brands though but limiting how many brands they have is smart. Hindsight being 20/20, GM shot themselves in the foot when they went coporate. It's taking 20+ years to see the affects though. It used to be GM could own all these brands because while they were similar(ie built on the same platform) but they were all very different(different engines, different interiors, etc etc). This meant very little over lap and loyalty to say Oldsmobile first, GM second. Meanwhile, GM as a whole prospered. Sure you can argue GM made more money being corporate and I'm betting they did. However, given today's situation and possible actions, I'd say a longevity was traded for some dollars that weren't needed.

And yes, autoblog reported the Pontiac Ute is dead

[TonyHuntimer]

That would leave Pontiac, Saturn, Saab (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/09/gm-sees-no-buyers-for-saab/) and HUMMER in automotive limbo.

I wonder if this has been coming for a while, since I have not heard much about a 2010 Pontiac Firebird/TransAm? Every year they had a Camaro, they have had a Pontiac version of the F-Body. Just a thought...

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[MuscleRodz]

I can see no reason to keep GMC brand. Just add another interior package to Chevy. Buick may be big overseas, but our local Buick dealer which is a huge Pontiac dealer, just keeps a small handful. I would dump it in the US market. I don;t understand why they would dump Saturn. its business model was setup like Toyota and Honda. think there is only 2 or 3 Saturn dealers in entire OKC area. If they would just eliminate all the overlapping models, would cut costs a bunch.

[claytonisbob]

Keeping GMC probably doesn't cost much in the grand scheme of things. If GMC was created to give brand balance to dealers, it must not have costed GM too much to create a new brand (as long as the only differences in the trucks are different grills and emblems... and toned down interiors) in the first place.

A LOT of their decision might not even have anything to do with the US. After watching "Saving General Motors" I saw how dominant GM is in China... pretty amazing.

[PonchoJohn]

I was planning on buying a G8 GXP, BUT they are going to kill the only division that ever did have balls- they tried to neuter them w/ the demise of the Pontiac V8 (but brought it's features back as an LSx wink.wink..). Then they took the RWD GP- Pontiac lobbed some GTP's out there and everybody snapped 'em up. They tested the waters w/ a "Tap Shift" then other divisions got it. Pontiac kept GM going w/ the Grand Am (say whatever you want- they flat-out sold those cars). The WS6 4th gens were AWESOME (the fact that during the last few years of production, the Firebird almost outsold the Camaro is proof of people's preference).
The GTO was cancelled before it could get a proper redesign to make it fit the Pontiac image. The deliver a hot, fun to drive sports car, the Solistice (especially the GXP), and a sedan that had my, as well as many folks, attention, and now GM says F Pontiac??!!
Fu(K You GM!!
Let's see...
1948 Clayton Leach- PONTIAC engineer from PMD Engineering (yes kids, Lil ole Pontiac had an engineering department before the days of chevrolame engines) develops the rocker ball/stud/pushrod valvetrain-- sound familiar?? Yup, you've been using them since Pontiac invented them.
1955 Pontiac V8- Reverse flow cooling, dual valvesprings, windage tray, valley pan (keeps the hot oil off the intake), "air gap" manifold (Hi Edelbrock-- gee, I wonder where you got the idea from??), cast aluminum timing cover, four 1/2" stud per cylinder, torque to spec rockers (any of you LSx boys taking notes-- gee this sounds SOOOO familiar) AND an OIL FILTER housing to FILTER the oil!
1962 PMD invents the Fiberglass reinforced timing belt-- still in use today.
1964 Pontiac INVENTS the musclecar-- GTO. 'nuff said!
1968 Pontiac GTO- The front bumper is made of this rubbery stuff called Endura-- a urethane. How many of you have urethane bumpers on your car(s)?
Pontiac kept the musclecar alive in the 1970's when wimpy Corvettes couldn't get out of their own way. In fact, ONLY the Trans Am was never out of production from beginning to end. Mustang, Camaro, Cougar? Not musclecars- they could be with the right options, but not in base versions. Corvette? 1983??
Whatever... suck it GM!

[MonzaRacer]

Why not dump Buick and Chevy trucks.
Chevy used to be only strip-o and GMC was fancy.
Here would be my take on it,
Chevrolet cars
Pontiac Cars
GMC trucks
Caddy
Saturn as the eco level, euro line(its basicly US Saab)
They could sell a proper amount of cars:
Volt ECO cars
Cobalt with low and mid level
Cobalt LS & SS
Malibu
And a big car line for real families
get it small mid large.
Same line in Pontiac except Volt and Corvette
Colorado and truck lines
What good are Buicks now
See it used to be GM sold the lines in order
Chevy in different sizes
Pontiac
Oldsmobile
Buick
Caddilac except Caddy never had small cars till late 70s/80s remember Cimmarron ?
Hummer should be let go back to Military/law enforcement/civil defense line.
Saturn should be its own line like it used to be.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

Axing PONTIAC over GMC?!... man us poncho guys are now the last of a dying breed.. and boy that G8 is somethin.. i dont get it.

[6'9"Witha69]

The Astra IMO is a great little car and I really think it ought to be brought into the Chevy fold as a "world-car" in the vein of the Ford Escort/Focus.I agree 100%. THis was a great addition and very well styled. Much better than the Cobalt. THe first time I saw one I thought of a Mercedes did a Focus.

[DvBoard]

Even if 50% of the people who bought GMC trucks would convert to Chevy, that's still a HUGE loss of customers.

Not to mention truly axing a brand isn't really even an option since they'd have to buy out dealers at the tunes of BILLIONS of dollars, not to mention again that even a 50% conversion rate still means lost customers.

They are likely best to either use the brands to import cars from their Europe branch and simply swap the badge (no extra changes), and/or cut it down to a very limited number of cars which don't fit in with the 4 core brands.

GM has learned to tell congress what it wants to hear, and just come back later with a request for more money to "close" the brand.

[fishtail8]

I've always prefered a Pontiac over a Chevy. When I had my 91 GTA beside a friends 91 Z28, the Pontiac had nicer lines, a nicer interior, and just looked classier. If Pontiac does go down the tubes, i'll just have to drive my GTP into the ground. The Chevy's just don't compare...

[Jarcaines]

Buick and GMC are the two thet make no sense with or without a recession, those are the ones that should get the ax.

[TA219]

I will miss Pontiac the most! We have 2 in our driveway! The only new car I would buy today would be a G8.... but they dont have a friggen stick!!

[cluxford]

I know this will go against the grain, but is number of brands really the issue (sure it adds prduction and marketing costs), but reality is average Joe knows they are all GM cars.

Maybe they just need one brand. GM (or pick one of the existing and kill the rest - I'll let other slug that one out).

Surely it' about the vehicle line up, not the brand. As long as they have a good assortment of vehicles for the various markets in which they want to play (small, mid size, large, van, sports, truck, SUV, ute, etc etc etc) and most importantly as long as there is NO model overlap, then they get the benefit of good market coverage for lower price.

I know brand is important but when you are on deaths door surely it's about re-incarnting into a power house and that means tough decisions.

I don't think they should kill off unique models (unique being the key here...they should kill off duplicated models) as long as those unique models are profitable

Just my 2 cents

[subtlez28]

I will miss Pontiac the most! We have 2 in our driveway! The only new car I would buy today would be a G8.... but they dont have a friggen stick!!

I just read a road test of a six speed G8 in Motor Trend. There must be some out there... GET ONE WHILE YOU CAN!

[Mathius]

I'm still surprised with Saturn. It seems to be a much more versatile label, but I suppose they went with whatever is making them more money.

I didn't see anything in the article about what happens to those people's jobs?

Wasn't congress the ones who turned down approval for a merger with Chrysler? And now they're looking for cut backs.

I understand the necessity for GM as a business, but I thought the whole point of a requested bail out, was to SAVE jobs?

Mathius

[trapin]

I am sick over Saturn being mentioned. If they go, I am going to be crushed. Of all our brands, that is probably the one I root for the most. The dealer experience is the best in all of GM and I personally feel the product line is beautiful. I would not be entirely surprised if a German or Japanese company swaps them up. The difference between the Saturn's of the 90's and today's Saturns is night and day. No comparison. We fought so hard and worked our tails off to bring that company to a respectable level and now that it's finally arrived, we're going to sell it.

I'm sick about it. Just sick.

[Kenova]

We fought so hard and worked our tails off to bring that company to a respectable level and now that it's finally arrived, we're going to sell it.

I'm sick about it. Just sick.
This is very typical of GM. They introduce a new car, refine it to the point where it has become an excellent choice for purchase, then give it the axe and replace it with another car that needs refinement. With Saturn, they've just taken it to the next level.
As for Chevy vs. GMC trucks, I've found that a lot of people are very polarized as to whether or not they like the styling of one over the other, myself include. When I bought my '04 Silverado I couldn't find anything I liked about the GMCs, while others I work with felt the same way about the Chevys. Add the sales figures from both Chevy and GMC and you will find that GM outsells Ford pickups by a long shot. If GM cut back to one pickup truck model, they would struggle to keep up with Ford.

Ken

[JEFFTATE]

I think they ought to keep:
Chevrolet Cars
Chevrolet Trucks
Pontiac
Buick ( For now . Because they sell good to the older crowd and the Chinese .)
Cadillac
and Saturn

Just lose GMC Trucks.

Wait a minute, I didn't cut anything...........

[Eric Howell]

Sucks. The Chrysler plant less then a mile down the road closed last month and now Saturn (less then 5 miles)? This area is getting hit hard.

[96Z28SS]

I don't think the article is all that accurate.

Didn't the Swedish government give GM 3 billion when they were asking congress for a loan. Just to keep Saab going and to keep its Swedish people employed.

[scogin918]

I don't understand why they would keep GMC, the vehicles are very similar to Chevy. It seems most GMC sales would be converted to Chevy sales. At least Saturn vehicles were unique. I don't think many Saturn sales will convert to Chevy or Buick sales so they will likely be lost.


You would think they would jump at the opportunity to combine the two truck brands and be able to officially take over the "best selling truck" (American brand) moniker away from Ford.

[bigvegan]

I think keeping GMC trucks is how they avoid completely screwing their Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealers. Apparently it's very messy / complex / expensive to dismantle a dealer network, because otherwise a Chevy/Buick/Cadillac combo dealership would seem to be the way to go. (Or maybe this is the compromise middle state until GM gets there.)

At least Chevy will get some additional decent product, once it gets to cherry pick from the Saab and Saturn lineups.

[Damn True]

Ya know.....I don't think this actually means that the product offering is going to change. It could be that the "brand" will just go away.

Lucerne becomes Impala
Lacrosse becomes Bel-Air
G8 becomes Caprice or Chevelle
Astra, Slostice and a few others simply get a bowtie.

I mean....who cares if the car is called a "pontiac" or a "chevy" it's all GM.

[T_Raven]

I care if it's called a pontiac or a chevy, as will most pontiac people. If pontiac dies I'll freakin puke lol. I'm gonna start a riot. Who knows what's going to happen but seriously, keep buick and gmc and get rid of pontiac?!! WTF?!

[PonchoJohn]

Ya know.....I don't think this actually means that the product offering is going to change. It could be that the "brand" will just go away.

Lucerne becomes Impala
Lacrosse becomes Bel-Air
G8 becomes Caprice or Chevelle
Astra, Slostice and a few others simply get a bowtie.

I mean....who cares if the car is called a "pontiac" or a "chevy" it's all GM.
Fair enough. Kill Chevy and put arrowheads on all them.
I mean, who cares... right?

[T_Raven]

^^Hell yeah!!!!

[Damn True]

You Pontiac guys are a riot.

[BA.]

I don't see how cutting Pontiac or Saturn is the right thing to do, but I guess none of us has the revenue numbers right? (guessing)

Is anyone else struck by the oddness that the same guys that have led GM to this day are making these decisions on how to save it? I mean, they are, right?
Might as well sharpen the axe for the axe-murderer,...or have your swindling state Governor keep Governoring, or even to have a known criminal (Madoff) continue to send out millions of $$$ to his buddies before he goes down. BTW - let's just keep him in a posh suite for now under "house arrest".

It all drives me F'N C R A Z Y !!!

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

For crying out loud.. LOOK at these cars!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/1802934968_2cdd4a70df_o-1.jpg
i know its a holden but basically the same thing..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/2331117242_5549c3ce27_o-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/2331117578_5cfefda77d_o-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/2932867025_ec7653abfa_b-1.jpg
and still keep buick?!

[Gearhead Dude]

I asked a Director of a 5-state Toyota Distributor recently for his opinion of GM's situation. He showed me where Toyota/Lexus sellls nearly the same number of vehicles in the US as GM using 1,500 dealers (approximate) compared to over 6,000 (+/-) GM dealers. With the expectations that some dealers are going away, expect that those brands with the most clout will be hurt least. The dealership networks have a lot of power. Politics find there way into everything, so don't expect their decisions to be altogether reasonable. Just my 2 cents.

[Damn True]

For crying out loud.. LOOK at these cars!



i know its a holden but basically the same thing..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/2932867025_ec7653abfa_b-1.jpg
and still keep buick?!

So with a bowtie would that thing be less bitchin? IMO that thing looks 100% better with the Holden grille (replace the Griffon with a bowtie) than it does in Poncho livery. I just can't get past the 1986 Grand-Am grillework.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

dude.. if that thing had a bowtie and 2 doors.. i would own one.

hell that could be the new Chevelle for all i care..

bowtie+2doors= ownage.. hell pontiac, holden, chevy, cadillac, and 2 doors=

mine.

[PonchoJohn]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/01/Pontiac2copy-1.jpg
Styling is what it's all about. Notice how the grilles flow into the hood scoop path.
86 Grand Am? How about 1958 Pontiac. It's called a styling cue. It's called heritage. Hell, BMW's CEO liked it so much that in the late 60's he stated he wanted BMW to be the Pontiac of Europe- so they used Pontiac's grille work--- still in use to this day. My how things have changed

[Damn True]

The grillework and the nostrils....hate em.

Reminds me of
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

What I love though, is how irate poncho guys get when someone says they dislike the looks of a poncho. It's sort of a vehicular version of short-man syndrome.

I mean....I seriously don't give a rat's behind if you dislike the look of a Camaro and I am certainly not going to spend any time attempting to convince you otherwise.

[PonchoJohn]

That's okay. GM has you covered. They have this bland, entry level division w/ a French wallpaper design as their emblem.
They don't use scoops, styled grilles, or nuttin'!
Thousands of sheople love 'em- Chevrolet.

[JJSmitches]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
styling is what it's all about. Notice how the grilles flow into the hood scoop path.
86 grand am? How about 1958 pontiac. It's called a styling cue. It's called heritage. Hell, bmw's ceo liked it so much that in the late 60's he stated he wanted bmw to be the pontiac of europe- so they used pontiac's grille work--- still in use to this day. My how things have changed

yes please!

[shudog]

I think keeping GMC trucks is how they avoid completely screwing their Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealers. Apparently it's very messy / complex / expensive to dismantle a dealer network, because otherwise a Chevy/Buick/Cadillac combo dealership would seem to be the way to go. (Or maybe this is the compromise middle state until GM gets there.)

At least Chevy will get some additional decent product, once it gets to cherry pick from the Saab and Saturn lineups.

That's exactly right. It's about the dealer networks as much as it is about the viability of the brand. Saturn as a stand alone brand seems very marketable in these times of higher mpg, but at the same time, it's also easy to close down as a stand alone brand.

As many have already said, I really don't understand keeping Buick, but I did watch the "Saving GM" segment and I know they are huge in China. Weird because nobody here drives them that I know of. I'll miss Pontiac. I really like the new G8's and I think the trucks should be combined. But hey what do I know.

[6'9"Witha69]

That's okay. GM has you covered. They have this bland, entry level division w/ a French wallpaper design as their emblem.
They don't use scoops, styled grilles, or nuttin'!
Thousands of sheople love 'em- Chevrolet.
Exactly the point, this fervor is almost unmatched by any other brand junkie. Use of the word bland and sheople are the first giveaways. I always thought a 1st gen Firebird nose looked clunky, and their designers always liked the overuse of chrome vs. Chevy. Seemed like that to me with regard to most cousin vehicles.

Lets see how you react to that thought, while I don't give 2 figs what you think of a cousin car. For that matter, more like brothers.

[PonchoJohn]

The grillework and the nostrils....hate em.

Reminds me of
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

What I love though, is how irate poncho guys get when someone says they dislike the looks of a poncho. It's sort of a vehicular version of short-man syndrome.

I mean....I seriously don't give a rat's behind if you dislike the look of a Camaro and I am certainly not going to spend any time attempting to convince you otherwise.

Your linky no worky....

It's not that you dislike it, it's how the dislike is expressed. You receive remarks in kind the same as they are received from yourself (or others who wanna jump in). Smart-assed comments will get you the same. Fair enough?
Oh, for the record, there are many Chevies that I adore, but I find the general styling of Chevy to be bland. I like the garrish, in your face, striped, scooped, spoilered MUSCLECAR (not ricer) look. That was the whole point of the disdain toward GM. Chevrolet is an entry level, bread and butter, get a customer at this level then graduate them to upper divisions ($$) kind of car company. Pontiac is (was) the higher level of trim/engine/styling, performance, take-a chance car division, Olds was the performance-for-the-gentleman crowd, Buick was the bridge between Olds and Caddy, and Caddy is/was the Luxury division. There was a place for all of us with GM. Not so if they pare off divisions, and Pontiac guys have gotten screwed by GM for DECADES, so we're a little sensitive to their bull$hit.

[PonchoJohn]

Exactly the point, this fervor is almost unmatched by any other brand junkie. Use of the word bland and sheople are the first giveaways. I always thought a 1st gen Firebird nose looked clunky, and their designers always liked the overuse of chrome vs. Chevy. Seemed like that to me with regard to most cousin vehicles.

Lets see how you react to that thought, while I don't give 2 figs what you think of a cousin car. For that matter, more like brothers.
Okay so you say clunky and that's okay, but I say bland and you're up in arms?? WTF???!!
I'll assume that you don't know the history of GM w/ guys like Vince Piggins and Pete Estes trying to screw Pontiac at every turn. Pontiac came out w/ a 2 seat car (Firebird) that was smaller than a Mustang , had IRS, and a Pontiac V8 or OHC 6. Moments before it was to be debutted at a Motorama, it was found out and bannished (the styling re-emerged as the 68 Vette). Why?? They knew it would be death for the Corvette. When John DeLorean went to Chevy in 69, he took many secrets w/ him (new engines that would have revolutionized V8 performance- all scuttled thanks to Chevy), plans for a new G body platform (even the name- Monte Carlo was stolen from a 62 Pontiac Tempest roadster), etc. He knew how to undermine Pontiac and did. Then there was the loss of our engine... so yeah, there's a little animosity there.
Cousin vehicles? I always referred to them as sister cars, but who cares?

[bigvegan]

Man, I just hope that if GM makes it through and consolidates all their dealerships, that in 5-10 years they can resurrect brand nameplates for badge-engineered one-off models for the diehard fans.

It would be pretty sweet to see an Olds 442 or a Buick GNX version of that Holden Coupe, and maybe a 50th anniversary Firebird in 2019.

[Vegas69]

They need to take their best selling and profitable cars from every car line and stick a chevy, buick, gmc, emblem on them and be done with it. Dump the failures and the cars that just don't sell. Having all these different car lines under one roof was a horrible idea from day one. Let's compete against ourselves. Most of the vehicles they produce just aren't that different.

[T_Raven]

That GTO in post #47 is bitchin!

Damn True, " a vehicular version of short-man syndrome." ???
that would insinuate that we feel inferior? What do us pontiac guys have to feel inferior for? Every one has their own opinions but I agree with John that chevy's styling is more "bland" at least over the last few years. I'm not totally impressed with pontiac either, there are things I would change about any car.

It doesn't matter what brand you like, no one wants to see the name go away even if the cars stay the same but with different badges. If GM went down to nothing but chevy and redid the whole line then I'd understand, but to keep buick and ditch Pontiac? Who the heck even buys buicks anymore?

[Rhino]

Who the heck even buys buicks anymore?
Are you asking globally, or within the US? The difference in sales figures is like night and day.

[Mathius]

Okay so you say clunky and that's okay, but I say bland and you're up in arms?? WTF???!!
I'll assume that you don't know the history of GM w/ guys like Vince Piggins and Pete Estes trying to screw Pontiac at every turn. Pontiac came out w/ a 2 seat car (Firebird) that was smaller than a Mustang , had IRS, and a Pontiac V8 or OHC 6. Moments before it was to be debutted at a Motorama, it was found out and bannished (the styling re-emerged as the 68 Vette). Why?? They knew it would be death for the Corvette. When John DeLorean went to Chevy in 69, he took many secrets w/ him (new engines that would have revolutionized V8 performance- all scuttled thanks to Chevy), plans for a new G body platform (even the name- Monte Carlo was stolen from a 62 Pontiac Tempest roadster), etc. He knew how to undermine Pontiac and did. Then there was the loss of our engine... so yeah, there's a little animosity there.
Cousin vehicles? I always referred to them as sister cars, but who cares?

You sound a little confused. You point to the styling cues of Pontiac, which is fine, but then you refer back to the musclecar history?

The irony of your statement is that GM has been dumping all the horsepower into Chevy, while Pontiac has been lucky in some cases to get a v6. I mean your days have been numbered since the trans am was ax'ed and they blew it on the GTO.

You call them brand specific styling cues, I call them clones.

And if I read that right, Pontiac isn't being ax'ed _yet_. They're just not making new vehicles, right? So there's still a chance something could happen. Saturn is the only one that the article says will be closed or sold off, if I read it right.

Mathius

[Mathius]

I don't see how cutting Pontiac or Saturn is the right thing to do, but I guess none of us has the revenue numbers right? (guessing)

Is anyone else struck by the oddness that the same guys that have led GM to this day are making these decisions on how to save it? I mean, they are, right?
Might as well sharpen the axe for the axe-murderer,...or have your swindling state Governor keep Governoring, or even to have a known criminal (Madoff) continue to send out millions of $$$ to his buddies before he goes down. BTW - let's just keep him in a posh suite for now under "house arrest".

It all drives me F'N C R A Z Y !!!
I agree. I think the bailout should be contingent on the CEO's being ax'ed. They wouldn't even take a pay cut.

But the only problem I foresee is if the CEO's are ax'ed, then what...? The next guy down the totem poll has to go to bat to negotiate with the government?

I still say the whole situation is messed up. They've built too many dealerships and extended themselves to too many brands, with too many similarities. The correct answer is to cut back. But then jobs are lost. Isn't the whole point of a successful bail out to prevent job loss?

It just doesn't make sense.

Saving the brand isn't the main concern as far as the economy goes. Saving the jobs should be.

Sure, the hobbyist in me hates to see all these extra brands get sent to limbo, but the american in me knows its necessary.

Mathius

[Jim Nilsen]

If they have utility,basic transport,comfort,and sport. 4 divisions, they might do better with grouping common desires within the divisions. When you get down to 4 you don't get much more and you really don't need more. Most of us here have more than one type of vehicle for a reason,not every vehicle does the same things well.

I just want a good solid honest built vehicle for each purpose. If they made modular vehicles that were interchangable for drivetrain. having a powerful drivetrain that will work great in a truck and in 5 minutes put that drivetrain in my Camaro. Along with that a really nice high efficiency engine that will power the Camaro too and fit in a comfortable travel cockpit type vehicle that is all about the inside.

I will stop dreaming now and know that good smart concepts that would sell more and save more will never make it.

Who cares what the hell division or brand makes it ,let's just get something new across the whole spectrum.

I am thinking they need us to run them over with good ideas or they won't know there is a market for it. Without a cheat sheet to tell them what is selling they are lost. Nothing is selling like they were told it would and they are in shock. They need us to tell them what we want.

They really need to get a new leader no matter what. All respect has been lost that is normally just expected in the leadership and a new leader is more important than a new car at this moment.