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View Full Version : Wilwood vs. Baer



Nutsy
03-03-2005, 12:39 PM
Ok guys,

Need opinions/experiences here. Perferably more experiences than opinions ;)

I can get the Baer Extreme Plus for roughly $2200 on the GP on this site, but i also have a contact to get the Wilwood Superlite 6 Big Brake Front Hub Kits for my 69 Camaro for substantialy less.

Here is a link to the Wilwood Kit: http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Pages/01/index.asp

Any comparisons? Is there anything i am getting with the Baer kit that I am not getting with the Wilwood or Vice Versa?

I hate squeeky brakes. And i hate Calipers that discolour. I used to have Wilwood 4 pistons on my VW and they did both.

Thoughts??

Trev

Flyboy
03-03-2005, 01:24 PM
Trev, I too have looked in to both kits. The Wilwoods seem to be the much better deal normally. The only downside to the Wilwood kits is that their calipers come with no dust seals from what i've read. The Baer kits are supposed to be geared a little more towards the daily driven vehicles that see more wear and tear on the streets, whereas the Wilwoods are geared a little more towards racing applications.

But i'll tell you what. I know a couple of people that use Wilwood brakes (one for circle track stuff, the other actually on his street car), and they both say the quality of the product is top notch.

LTorres
03-03-2005, 02:16 PM
Wilwood 4 sure but I'd have to agree with Flyboy the Wilwood calipers do not on any application I've seen come with dust boots, however I've never seen or heard of any issues with premature failure's, even with daily drives. But most importantly the calipers from Baer in the GT kit only use 2 piston's on the same inboard portion of the caliper and rely on the mechanics of a sliding rail to apply pressure to the outboard pad...Hence just one more thing exposed to the elements to hang up or bind later. I know of another company that can custom build a Wilwood kit to your specs. ASK and ye shall recieve...

justanova
03-03-2005, 07:06 PM
I have been on the fence about the same thing for a while, and finally decided to buy the wilwood's, it just seems like you get more for you money. I ended up getting their sl6 front kit, just got it today, and I must say the quality looks to be excellent. It will be a while before I get to actually use them but if they perform as good as they look I will be extremely happy.

hope this helps

HOT OHC
03-03-2005, 09:28 PM
For what it's worth I too have decided to go with Wilwood.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2004/08/Wilwood_6_Piston-1.jpg

TitoJones
03-03-2005, 11:08 PM
Baer is the choice for me. The extreme + has the Alcon 4 piston caliper if I recall.

This is a better system to me:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/03/susp20004r-1.jpg

Tyler

Nutsy
03-04-2005, 06:42 AM
Tyler,

I would like to know how is it a better system?

Apparently they don't use the Alcon Caliper anymore. They are coming out with their "own" 6 piston.

Trev

TitoJones
03-04-2005, 09:06 AM
Well, right off the bat look at the rotor thickness between Wilwwod and Baer. The baer rotor has more material there, which equals better heat dissapation, which leads to repeatabilty without fade.

The Baer system also uses complete weather seals, dust boots ect that Wilwood does not, the new Baer 6 piston caliper is a solid monoblock one piece caliper with the option of a removable bridge for quick pad changes.

If price is the main concern, go with Wilwood, if the better system is the main factor, my money is on Baer everytime.
Tyler

Salt Racer
03-04-2005, 10:44 AM
...if the better system is the main factor, my money is on Baer everytime.
Tyler

My money is on Brembo or AP.

Q ship
03-04-2005, 12:13 PM
We need to start banging away at Stoptech to begin making "vintage" kits. Nice balance of cost and performance.

4MuscleMachines
03-04-2005, 12:23 PM
I have the Baer 13" in my 71 Boss 351 and they squeek alot...drives me crazy! Makes my pristine $45k car sound like an old rust bucket. Just received my 70 Boss 302 with six piston wilwoods and they do not squeek as much, when they do they do not irritate as much as the sound from the Baers. Maybe my mechanic forgot to install/lube or do something to prevent the Baers from squeeking?

Q ship
03-04-2005, 01:32 PM
What pads are you running?

Mean 69
03-04-2005, 05:27 PM
All of the "kits" mentioned here are, in my not so humble opinion, either "unworthy," or junk, or overpriced. Let me clarify a bit. I don't have experience with the six pot Wilwoods, but in general, the lower end (i.e. non-race specific) calipers are generally known to flex a lot. Not good. The six pot stuff may be really good if used with a thick rotor, I think the kits they offer use thin stuff? 1.25" minimum thickness with these calipers, please.

Then, there's Baer. The lower end stuff they sell can be made yourself to an equal level of quality, pretty well documented on the Cheap Big Brake threads you can find here and there. The upper end stuff is different, they use the wonderful Alcon "Advantage" calipers, or, rather "did" use them. From what I gather they knocked off the Alcon design (stole it), and are now making their own calipers based upon this design. Sorry, I don't like that type of business. If anyone can substantiate this as false, I'll retract my statement. I am confident I am correct.

Stoptech? Terrific stuff, no question, very high quality, and race proven to say the least. BUT! I have been egging them on to make an early model specific kit with little luck. Bob Lee is the COO, great guy, but they are in the business of addressing higher market demands, which means late model stuff. You can piece together your own stuff with their calipers, possibly even their rotors, but nothing bolt on.

So what do you do?! I found an alternative source for the Alcon six pots, I might even begin selling them myself in the future, and am making my own setup using 1.25" thick rotors from Coleman, and hats from Wilwood (self fabricated brackets, unfortunately). Great stuff, at a fraction of the cost of the upper end Baer kits.

Squealing brakes? Very most likely the pads. There is a huge difference in the overall performance of a given brake system relative to the pads. I'd look at alternatives here before swapping the major components.

Sorry if this sounds like a bit of a rant, but having been down the "what do I do now path," only to find myself re-doing all that I had slaved over before, well, I guess I am a bit biased.

Okay, a small(?) disclaimer here, any of the brake kits with at LEAST 1.10" thick rotor up front, 12" or better diameter, and a decent balance between front rear calipers, etc, will work GREAT on the street with the proper power assist, and the right pads. My applications are a bit more track biased, and demand a bit more, but truthfully, many of the kits out there are marginal, at best, if you plan to really drive the car hard.

Mark

USAZR1
03-04-2005, 06:04 PM
Then, there's Baer. The lower end stuff they sell can be made yourself to an equal level of quality, pretty well documented on the Cheap Big Brake threads you can find here and there. The upper end stuff is different, they use the wonderful Alcon "Advantage" calipers, or, rather "did" use them. From what I gather they knocked off the Alcon design (stole it), and are now making their own calipers based upon this design. Sorry, I don't like that type of business. If anyone can substantiate this as false, I'll retract my statement. I am confident I am correct.
Mark

I'm confident that you're wrong but don't really care either way as you're certainly entitled to your opinion,Mark. Baer decided to go in another direction because Alcon's delivery times were really hit & miss and their quality control had started to suffer. Their pricing wasn't competitive,either. As a Baer dealer,I could pretty much count on their other kits to delivered in 3-6 weeks. For their Alcon kits,4-6 months delivery times weren't unusual,at all. Baer's new monoblock calipers are much better,for a lot less money. Make your own judgements.

HOT OHC
03-04-2005, 06:50 PM
If price is the main concern, go with Wilwood, if the better system is the main factor, my money is on Baer everytime.


Sadly price is always a concern for most of us, well at least me. I agree the alcon 4 pistons are better than wilwoods 6, but the alcons are a grand more, I believe.

Mean 69
03-04-2005, 07:44 PM
Baer's new monoblock calipers are much better,for a lot less money.

Outstanding! Direct experience. I love it. But, can you please substantiate the comment about "much better?" How much less expensive??? Honestly, I am uncertain to the improvements that have been made to the Alcon design, but I would certainly love to hear the engineering decisions that went into the improvements. If there are indeed technical advantages, well, bring 'em on! We'd love to hear about them. For me though, please, be specific, technically. I should have my Alcon's by next week, honestly, should have had them today but I am still not "quite ready" for them, so we can compare notes directly. It'll be fun. Hopefully educational for others in the future too, myself included, so bring on the "tech."

M

datsbad
03-05-2005, 09:49 AM
any info on the new Baer 6 pot calipers ? where could i see them at ? and how much ? are they available yet ?

USAZR1
03-05-2005, 12:02 PM
any info on the new Baer 6 pot calipers ? where could i see them at ? and how much ? are they available yet ?

They were introduced at SEMA. I haven't sold any of them yet so I haven't had a chance to look a pair over,closely. What I have heard,though,is very positive. I'm not 100% since I don't have the price list handy but the new Baer six piston kits are around $600-$1,000 cheaper than the old Alcon kits.

TitoJones
10-04-2005, 11:56 PM
My money is on Brembo or AP.

But he didn't ask about those brands. I was only giving my choice between Wilwood vs Baer, and I chose Baer. If we get to pick from everyone, my $$ is also on AP Racing:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~tylerb/Tito.jpg

Tyler

rohrt
10-05-2005, 05:31 AM
Stoptech? Terrific stuff, no question, very high quality, and race proven to say the least. BUT! I have been egging them on to make an early model specific kit with little luck. Bob Lee is the COO, great guy, but they are in the business of addressing higher market demands, which means late model stuff. You can piece together your own stuff with their calipers, possibly even their rotors, but nothing bolt on.

So what do you do?! I found an alternative source for the Alcon six pots, I might even begin selling them myself in the future, and am making my own setup using 1.25" thick rotors from Coleman, and hats from Wilwood (self fabricated brackets, unfortunately). Great stuff, at a fraction of the cost of the upper end Baer kits.



Mean 69, if you put together a kit any chance that it would work with that ATS spindles

TitoJones: Who's upper A-arms are you using in the picture you posted.

TitoJones
10-05-2005, 08:06 AM
Those are DSE tubular A arms, but powdercoated a special silver for Jody (Camcojb).
The Alcons will work on our AFX spindle, no problems.
Tyler

Mean 69
10-05-2005, 11:46 AM
One from the past, nice. If we ended up making a kit with Alcon's, etc, they WOULD be compatible with the AFX deal, but honestly, I doubt we ever will. The direction we are taking at this point is to have all brake compatibility issues for anything we end up producing consistent, strictly, with the C5 platform. The amount of really good brake kits for this form factor is terrific, you can start with economical GM stuff and have a great begining point, or just smile and dial Stoptech, Alcon, Brembo, and as Tyler pointed out, AP Racing/ATS. It probably will not get any better than this stuff, or put differently, if you need more brakes than this, you will likely be competing in a 12 hour endurance event.

The Alcon's have been really good to me, a nice affordable upgrade, but having adapted them the stock Camaro spindel and now suffering from the woes of the stock spindle's tendancy to flex, well, let's just say the the front of a first gen F body has more issues to solve than just the brakes. To put it mildly.

Mark

1mpalass
10-25-2005, 10:38 PM
I would lean toward a Baer kit that uses C5 calipers, and here's why. The new C6 ZO6 Vette has some awesome-looking fixed 6 piston calipers (4 pistion rear) and 14" rotors that bolt directly to the old C5 Corvette mounts (the abutments are eliminated, as the calipers are fixed). If you have invested in a C5 mounting system (assuming you've got some rims that clear the new brake/rotor combo) you can bolt the new ZO6 stuff right on! I've heard one Corvette parts guy quote the price for a complete kit - calipers, pads, and rotors - to be in the $1700 range. That price is for fronts and rears. I suspect the price will come down over time as more ZO6's are built and availability gets better.
I know guys that run Wilwoods on their Impala's with no trouble on the street. They also rave about the brake-feel they get with the fixed caliper design.

Damn True
10-25-2005, 10:44 PM
But dont you need some sort of wild master cyl to run those brakes with different bore sizes f/r?

Ralph LoGrasso
10-25-2005, 10:46 PM
I would lean toward a Baer kit that uses C5 calipers, and here's why. The new C6 ZO6 Vette has some awesome-looking fixed 6 piston calipers (4 pistion rear) and 14" rotors that bolt directly to the old C5 Corvette mounts (the abutments are eliminated, as the calipers are fixed). If you have invested in a C5 mounting system (assuming you've got some rims that clear the new brake/rotor combo) you can bolt the new ZO6 stuff right on! I've heard one Corvette parts guy quote the price for a complete kit - calipers, pads, and rotors - to be in the $1700 range. That price is for fronts and rears. I suspect the price will come down over time as more ZO6's are built and availability gets better.
I know guys that run Wilwoods on their Impala's with no trouble on the street. They also rave about the brake-feel they get with the fixed caliper design.


The only problem with this is that by the time you buy a C5 Baer kit, and then swap to the Z06 stuff, you would be real close to the cost of the Baer 6 pots. Another issue I've heard of is the width of the calipers. The new Z06 calipers are much wider than stock C5 calipers, and caliper clearance will be an issue for some. This is not to say I won't be looking real hard at the Z06 stuff for my '01 SS when it becomes available, though. :)

Steve1968LS2
10-26-2005, 09:49 AM
But dont you need some sort of wild master cyl to run those brakes with different bore sizes f/r?

You mean the 6 piston front and 4 piston back?

If so then I don't think so.. I just had a regular old MC and my brakes on the '69 worked great..

On my 2000SS I had 6 piston Wilwoods up front and single piston PBR's out back and had zero issues with the stock MC..

Damn True
10-26-2005, 10:04 AM
Hmm, I seem to recall one of the ATS cats saying something about a pretty significant volume delta between the f/r ZO6 calipers and the requirement for some kinda oddball master cyl.

LTorres
10-26-2005, 01:24 PM
The Baer system also uses complete weather seals, dust boots ect that Wilwood does not, the new Baer 6 piston caliper is a solid monoblock one piece caliper with the option of a removable bridge for quick pad changes.

Tyler

Something to Ponder....No offense just our 2 cents

Dust Boots:
This is a rubber concertina style boot which snaps into the caliper around the piston or pistons and onto the piston protrusion itself. This “bellows” configuration allows the piston to move in and out of the caliper without contamination from the environment. Road grime, dirt and especially moisture can corrode production type caliper pistons leading to premature failure of the piston seals rendering the caliper inoperable. Vehicle manufacturers typically design their products around a minimum criteria list which almost never includes special materials for components such as caliper pistons. Many production style caliper pistons are therefore aluminum or other easily corrodible metals for obvious reasons, not least of which is cost. It is less expensive by far to make aluminum pistons and rubber boots than to make stainless steel pistons for example. A huge percentage of production car calipers HAVE to have dust boots or they will not last to the end of the warranty.

Aside from some of the obvious weight and capacity drawbacks of production calipers, dust boots can be a hazard to high performance drivers. Brake components are designed to convert kinetic energy (inertia of the moving vehicle) to heat energy and then dissipate that heat. The heating and cooling cycle occurs with higher frequency under spirited, or race driving conditions where it is not unusual to develop enough heat to make rotors glow red hot. Radiant and conducted heat developed under hard driving conditions can easily heat the calipers to the point where the brake fluid boils and the boots burn. Dust boots are not installed on true racing calipers.

The best solution for safe and reliable high performance calipers is to eliminate the rubber boots and build pistons from good quality, non-corroding stainless steel. Such calipers are built by Wilwood Engineering and other quality companies. Precision Brakes Company has been supplying Wilwood calipers for high performance street and race use for nearly 19 years without complaint. Our experience has been that companies who do build aftermarket calipers with dust boots make an issue of this fact to justify the exorbitant cost of their products.


Not sure if the Baer calipers use Stainless Steel pistons?? Could someone tell me wether they do or do not?

chicane67
10-26-2005, 08:33 PM
But dont you need some sort of wild master cyl to run those brakes with different bore sizes f/r?

Yes, it does require differential bore sizes...... and we have the answer to this issue. It will be released just after SEMA, more towards the beginnning of the year.


Not sure if the Baer calipers use Stainless Steel pistons?? Could someone tell me wether they do or do not?

Yes, they are made of cold pressed stainless steel.

BTW.... mono blocks are old news. There are better, lighter, cheaper and more capable calipers on the market for the smae if not less than what is being offered in a "mono block" design.