So what ARE the products that you want? [Archive]

trapin

12-17-2008, 07:00 AM

Often during discussion of the Big Three on this site I hear the familiar refrain "They don't make the products that people want".

OK...fair enough. Let's do a fun activity. And while doing this activity, lets not get into why you hate the Big Three or what you think they're doing wrong or anything else that is going to start a fight. That stuff is for the other thread in this forum. If you get off topic I am going to edit your reply. That's not what this thread is for. You've been warned.

This is going to be a case study that I am going to share with my Supervisor and Manager here in the Design Organization. Maybe something will come out of it...and maybe nothing will. Never hurts to try.

Here's what I want from you guys. "You guys" meaning the ones who say, "They don't make the products that people want".

I want you to jump in here and give me some examples of products that YOU feel we are not building. Give me names and brands of vehicles with a picture of those vehicles. Pictures are an absolute requirement. You MUST have a picture accompany your reply. Tell us about the vehicle and what features it has that appeal to you. And lastly...take a vehicle from our stable that competes with said vehicle directly (for example....do not offer up how this Pontiac doesn't compete with this BMW, that is apples and oranges) and describe how our vehicle doesn't measure up. Make sure the information is factual and not just opinion.

Look....I don't know how much longer I'm going to be working for this company so this could be your last chance for your opinion to actually fall on the eyes and ears of GM Management. Not a lot of GM employees are willing to do something like this.

So lets see what you got.

Mr.VENGEANCE

12-17-2008, 07:25 AM

an electric muscle car..

a muscle car with gas manners of a motorcycle..

a muscle car with with all those things for the price of a kia.

ahhaha

wishful thinking..

Im still going to get one of those new Camaros tho.. f that!

Restomod

12-17-2008, 07:59 AM

I think the cost to me is more of the problem. I love the C6, Sky and Solsitce the Shelby GT500 ect. But they are not affordable new or even used most of the time. Also Dump ALL the damn electronic dodads and crap that only run up the $$$$,I never even use 90% of the things my Z06 has on it! And the stereo SUCKS!!!

BonzoHansen

12-17-2008, 08:14 AM

A car I know will last 150000 miles - including items like window motors and heated seats.

A decent small car, affordable, like a Versa. That little one GM has does not impress me.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Versa - $10k base
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I like a lot of the lineup though.

**edit: Looks like the aveo has been updated now compared to the last time I looked in person about a year ago. Is the 09 a new model?

6'9"Witha69

12-17-2008, 08:26 AM

Tony, you know I am not one of "those guys". I will only say I love my GM stuff.

I have a couple issues but they are directly related to my size, so I doubt changing anything for the freakishly large will make sense. It just has to do with the position and protrusion of the lock cylinder on the steering column in my HHR. Right in the knee.

Another suggestion is putting the telescoping columns into more or all the models. This helps everyone fit better not just tall people.

Tony_SS

12-17-2008, 08:29 AM

More aggressive styling overall.*

I really like our HHR but it lacks a lot of visual interest. I'd also like to see them expand up that into a midsize wagon vehicle. Something where it could be powered by a turbo ecotec, V6 or even a 4.8 SS wagon?

I think a nice compromise between performance and economy in a 2wd wagon/crossover WITH interesting design would fill a niche in the market.

I'll add that I don't think GM needs to keep reinventing the SUV. I think they need to reinvent the station wagon. I think Ford has the right idea with the Flex, but still could stand to be refined into something less brick-like.

*Without visual examples I don't know how to interpret this

1badchevelle

12-17-2008, 08:39 AM

I would say bring back the car's of the 60 -70. With Fords design of the Mustang, the Challenger and soon the Camaro I think a new Chevelle, Nova, Coronet, Fairlane, may be a Belair(not the compact concept from 02 looked like a thunderbird). As fuel efficient as the car are now and a good design they would sell. The truck erra was a good one but the muscle truck erra was short lived. Now its time to bring back the old with the new(Pro Tour) from the Big Three? That is what we are all doing here until a good design is put out at a resonable cost. The Camaro is a good example. So many years on the drawing board good desing if they would continue to resdesign more of the old but release to production like the Challenger was you would have a good line up. Dodge had a good idea with the charger only if they would have made it as a two door as well. Well that is my two cets sorry no pics.

69LT1Nova

12-17-2008, 08:50 AM

The cost of a new car is prohibitive. I attribute this to all the "creature features" that get crammed into them. Onstar? Don't need it or want it. A/C? That used to be optional equipment. Heated seats? Leather? Don't need it. Whatever happened to the "stripper" model that lured buyers in on price? Have a low price option, then upsell customers with options and features if they want them.

Have a muscle car with a LSx for UNDER $20K MSRP, and people will buy them like hotcakes, regardless of the economy. :look:

Give the public a new Camaro, with a V-8 and no frills for $18,500 MSRP and people will trample eachother like fat ladys on Black Friday going into Walmart.
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Nicks67GTO

12-17-2008, 08:58 AM

1. Redesign the cars to have an essence of style, some charactor if you will. Theres a reason people cherish muscle cars and alot of it was the really cool styling and tough look, not just the power on tap. Most new cars in general are all the same round box of ugly crap with some plastic chrome for a little extra coin.

2. Stop having to get every option known to man just to recieve a GT package. We need stripped down low option vehicles that will decrease the price, not increase it. Let the new muscle cars represent what they used to be, fairly cheap, fast, and no options oh and figure out how to keep them below 4100 lbs.... what a log

3. Trucks, i want an extended cab V-8 silverado or F-150. 4WD PS, PB, AC and cruise. Thats it. I dont believe i can get that. I have to get everything that comes with that and then it prices it right out of the market. $30K for a truck is silly. Let trucks be trucks, i dont need a " luxary car truck"

4. MPG. 30 MPG is not impressive to me. There have been cars around forever that can get 30mpg or close to it. 40 is starting to impress me and 50 should be the target without a high dollar option like "hybrid"

5. Back to trucks. They keep getting biger and bigger at the same payload. My 95' F150 is the size of a new ranger now, and people wonder why trucks get crap mileage. They are huge! I dont need a frame on my commuter F150 that will have no issues pulling a semi trailer full of lead. I just want one that is going to hold up well, and possibly pull a mild trailer with maybe a car on it or somthing if need be. If you want to pull a semi full of lead its time to step up to the bigger series trucks. I guess im saying make a full size truck with reasonable features that can get respectable mileage. Also they need to figure out how to make trucks with 2 different settings kind of like bully dog. Setting 1 is power and towing, Setting 2 is mileage and economy. Just an idea.

Im sure ill think of more....

69LT1Nova

12-17-2008, 09:03 AM

Damn True

12-17-2008, 09:06 AM

An AWD wagon version of the new Malibu. Think Subaru Outback.

A 1/2-ton pickup with a reasonably strong diesel. You guys really need to do better than 21mpg in your trucks. This is the way. It doesn't have to be some gigantic engine out of a Peterbuilt. The Dodge Sprinter will merrily pull well over 10k with its little diesel.

While we are on the subject of diesels. I want diesels. There should be one available in nearly every model. E85 is stupid and a sham. Drop it like the bad habit that it is.

A smaller luxury sport-sedan. V-6, RWD. Think 3-series, G35 or IS sedan in terms of content and G35 in terms of price point.

Release the Z/28 as a "clubsport" edition of the Camaro. It should be a de-contented, lighter, "enthusiast" model with all the performance goodies (no supercharger please), and few if any of the luxury/comfort goodies.

Damn True

12-17-2008, 09:10 AM

Give the public a new Camaro, with a V-8 and no frills for $18,500 MSRP

Step away from the bong.

Hellbound

12-17-2008, 09:12 AM

Post had no relevance to the subject matter. Please read the above instructions.

69LT1Nova

12-17-2008, 09:13 AM

Step away from the bong.

Tell me why it can't be done Mr. Smartguy. :bsjerk:

dylanCamaro582

12-17-2008, 09:23 AM

An AWD G8 GT, a sportly sedan that is similar to audi's sedans,EVO, and STI.*https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/471581690_c284704813-1.jpg?v=0
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

A striped down Camaro like a clubsport for track days.

Diesel sedans, too. look at the euepoen models of all of Audi, BMW,MB, and i think jaguar. they are all full size sedans with deisel that can get 50 mpg of higher. Top Gear did a race on this nad all the cars got 50 mpg of higher.

*Pictures please, with comparisons to our competing vehicles and how they don't match up.

Damn True

12-17-2008, 09:26 AM

Tell me why it can't be done Mr. Smartguy. :bsjerk:

It costs Honda about $9-11k to build a dino-burning Civic.

Shall I go on Mr. Doesn'treadalotguy?

Paul_J

12-17-2008, 09:33 AM

Small quad-cab truck with a 4 cyl diesel. Very utilitarian no frills.

New Malibu Wagon, also no frills.

TonyL

12-17-2008, 09:36 AM

Less. Less brand overlap. we dont need pontiac versions of other cars. Lose the Vibe, it's just a toyota matrix. Lose GMC and put all that money into chevy trucks to compete with ford. Why compete with yourself GM?

I think the current gen Malibu is a fantastic car. It looks great, the fit and finish are spot on. The impala pales in comparison. This should NOT be the case. The impala should be the king of the passenger car lineup at chevy, not an afterthought.

The cobalt is almost there. It needs only a few revisions to capture the younger market. Wheels, stance and design vercatility. Gm has a habit of making the cars they make look like they were designed as a "fully loaded" car first and then stripped down. Buyers of the lesser models should feel like they bought a stripped down car, buy looking at block off plates in the dash, etc.

Everything is mostly there. There's loads of good cars that GM makes. They're just TOO MANY mediocre ones. Lose them. All of them. Do one of each, really well.

trapin

12-17-2008, 09:36 AM

Some very good suggestions however...I am still not hearing from the detractors who say we don't give the buying public what they want. I need them in here to provide visual examples of our failure to do this.

Also, a word about deisels. None of the big three offer deisels in their passanger cars and there was a good reason given for this by Bob Lutz over a year ago. However....I can't seem to find a link to the story where he explained the reason but I remember him saying that he wished GM could do it but because of some logistics with the government it made it hard to do. It may have been in the Tech Center News where I read it and I can't remember the specific reasons he gave, but he did address that issue with the deisel engine in passanger cars. I will stay on it and try to find that information for you guys.

OK. Detractors. Get in here.

TonyL

12-17-2008, 09:37 AM

oh, and chevy would do well to lose the grille bar thing. It's hurting the design. The malibu is great, it'd be better without that grille though.

TonyL

12-17-2008, 09:41 AM

I got one for ya. Wheres the answer to the two door hatchback? Honda sells a bunch of them. Why no cobalt hatchback? a nice little SS version would be a hot seller me thinks.

slowcamaro

12-17-2008, 09:42 AM

I like the small diesel idea.

I like the turbo ecotec idea.

Doesn't the european division already have multiple vehicles that meet more stringent fuel mileage qualifications?

And as far as things already being mentioned I want to be able to delete any option I don't need. I understand some hits on weight have to be taken for safety concerns but if I have to have to carry 300 lbs of mandatory safety equipment. I doubt I also want the 300lbs of seat heaters, power windows, 12 speaker stereo...etc. Are optional options to much to ask for?

bigvegan

12-17-2008, 09:43 AM

What Vengeance said. Imagine a Camaro version of Killacycle (http://www.killacycle.com/) . (It would probably cost a fair bit more than a Kia, but an electric musclecar that ran high 7s in the 1/4 mile sure would make a statement.)

Feel free to edit this as necessary Tony.

Seriously though, take a drive in a Civic, a Corolla, and a Cobalt and see the difference in steering feel and shifting quality (driving a manual transmission). Yes, the Cobalt SS is a solid performer, but the base models, not so much fun to drive.

Then look at the sheetmetal. You can argue that the new Corolla/Yaris/Civic/Fit aren't your style, but at least they committed to a theme, whereas the Aveo just looks cheap, and the Cobalt looks tacky (especially the coupe). GM can do GORGEOUS sheetmetal (Corvette, Solstice, Sky, G8, etc., etc.), so why not make an effort on the small cars?

It's hard to quantify this as anything other than opinion, as shifting/steering/driving feel/style are all hugely subjective, but they're all real and important factors.

Basically, a small light car with a small light engine is not going to be very fast, so it has to make up for that by being reliable, economical and fun to drive, and hopefully reasonably good looking (or at least distinctive, as nobody's going to call the Yaris hatchback attractive.)

The Cruze looks like it's going to be a nice replacement though, although I would simplify the interior a bit. GM has always done well with providing all the "bells and whistles" in terms of standard features, but I think a lot of us would prefer fewer but better features.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/x11ch_cz004-1.jpg
Just look at this concept for the Cruze interior. It's beautiful, but LOOK AT ALL THOSE BUTTONS.

Take some of those out and put the $ toward making sure the shifting and steering feels just right. (Too bad you can't fix up the rear pillar/window styling. That overly rounded roof arc gives off a used Passat vibe that already makes the car look a little dated, and it doesn't come out for another two years.)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

But honestly Tony, it's the way Civics and Corollas run forever. The dealership experience for ALL brands is completely abysmal ($82 for an OIL CHANGE at the TOYOTA dealership?), but when your car is reliable, it's a moot point. When your car ends up with unscheduled maintenance issues AND you compound that with lousy dealer experience, it pretty much turns you off. I mean, look at the varying opinions on this website (I may be the most obnoxious about it, but I'm not the only one who feels this way.) If you have people (other than me) on THIS WEBSITE talking about avoiding new American cars, it's going to take a while to catch up. The only way to fix that is to offer a 5 year / 100,000 mile BUMPER TO BUMPER (not just powertrain) warranty, and build cars well enough to make it cost effective to do that. It's either that, or just plan on staying in business and making quality cars for the next 10-20 years until your reputation improves.

Good luck!

69LT1Nova

12-17-2008, 09:45 AM

It costs Honda about $9-11k to build a dino-burning Civic.

Shall I go on Mr. Doesn'treadalotguy?

Thank you for proving my point.

GM's costs to build cars are higher. This is a given. We'll say, it costs them $15k to build and distribute the vehicle. This leaves $3,500 for profit. Sure, $3,500 isn't sexy or lucrative if you sell only a handful of cars...

The point is to sell in volumes, and rake in the cash. Economies of scale will reduce the production costs. The small percentage of profit more than makes up for itself if you sell in bulk.

I do not see why my number of posts diminishes my point. :enguard: Spend less time on the boards, and more time in the factory. I know I do.

James OLC

12-17-2008, 09:59 AM

Tony, I think that you have not only opened up an interesting can of worms with this post, you have almost immediately demonstrated the problem that GM is facing (and has faced) with respect to models and marketing targets.

My contribution will be anecdotal at best and only reflects my experiences purchasing my last two new vehicles over the past three years. Before going forward I will preface my story with this: (1) I have only ever owned one import car in my life (but not because I am anti-import), (2) I have owned, at different times over the last 20 years, cars from each of the big 3 and some of the previously existing smaller NA manufacturers who have been gobbled up over that time and (3) right now I have four GM products at home (but not because I blindly support GM).

Three years ago I bought an Infiniti G35 coupe because no North American manufacturer had a comparable product or, in the case of GM, had an offering in that category. I was looking for a 2 door, rear wheel drive, (semi) luxury sports car; needed to have a back seat, needed to be capable of use year round, and (and this one is a tough one to really define) needed to be a grown up’s car that I could use for business if need be.

I looked at everybody’s offerings at the time, starting with the big 3. The closest that Ford had was the GT500 but it was a year away and while I could justify the performance benefits over a base Mustang, the interior, etc. was not in the league that I was looking for. It was the only North American alternative. Dodge had nothing at the time (although a Challenger would be an option today) and GM had nothing to offer in this category at all - the Corvette is an awesome car but didn’t meet the majority of the requirements – nor was (or is) anything apparently coming down the pipe. The exception could have been the GTO but it wasn’t available in Canada and is gone now anyways. A 2-door G8 would be a great alternative IF the quality was carried over from the Australian built 4-doors continued (and it wasn’t dumbed down to make it as cheap as possible for the masses). I wound up test driving just about everything that was available at the time and settled on the Infiniti as the best balance of style, quality, and cost.

I think that if GM targeted this market, it could sell a quality vehicle but at a lower volume - as I think (with some exceptions) most manufacturers in that category do.

This year I bought a GMC Sierra crew cab with the VortecMax package. Again, I test drove a truck from every manufacturer who offered a full size, tow capable unit without a preconceived notion that I had to buy one from any specific company. GM won this one hands down and, ultimately, the only choice I had to make was between a Chev and a GMC. It was more expensive than I could have got either a Ford or a Dodge and less expensive than a Tundra or a Nissan but styling, power, etc. was the best in class.

That is my experience.

I think that one thing that I see already in this post is the divide that comes in regarding price. One thing that is always going to be a fact is that nobody can build the cheapest, nicest, fastest, bestest anything. The racer in me would love a dirt cheap stripped down Camaro (like a 1LE package) to build a 2010 OneLapCamaro but at the same time I think that could kill the whole thing because they would be “those cheap Camaro’s”. Would I pay a premium for an RS/SS (using ‘60’s definitions) – sure I would. Would I pay a premium for a premium (deluxe in ‘60’s speak) interior – sure I would.

You can sell a high volume of cheaply priced, cheaply built (not hating here, I mean built a cheaply as possible by necessity) anything BUT your reputation will reflect that.

What I want today (that’s not offered)?

A 2-door Cadillac CTS-V. The CTS-V is an AWESOME ride in every sense of the word, but I am not ready for a 4-door.

A 2-door G8. The imported 4-doors that I have seen are incredible cars; lose a door, through in a 6-speed and I am in. But why when I go to a dealer do they explain that the build quality is superior because is it built in Australia?

Moral of my long winded story – GM doesn’t have a vehicle targeting middle aged-ish professionals who are not looking for dad’s Caddy or a boy racer ‘Vette.

My two bits.

Damn True

12-17-2008, 10:06 AM

Thank you for proving my point.

GM's costs to build cars are higher. This is a given. We'll say, it costs them $15k to build and distribute the vehicle. This leaves $3,500 for profit. Sure, $3,500 isn't sexy or lucrative if you sell only a handful of cars...

The point is to sell in volumes, and rake in the cash. Economies of scale will reduce the production costs. The small percentage of profit more than makes up for itself if you sell in bulk.

I do not see why my number of posts diminishes my point. Spend less time on the boards, and more time in the factory. I know I do.

Cute. Except that 50% of the MSRP is wrapped up in building the car.

Tell me how you can build a much more richly contented car, under a more expensive manufacturing model and sell it for the same price as a civic?

Economy of scale does not work if you start at a net loss. You simply lose more each time you sell one.

Your number of posts is not what diminishes your post. It's the lack of understanding of what you are talking about that diminishes your post.

k7king

12-17-2008, 10:11 AM

Build the new camaro and strip it down to 3000 pounds. Get rid of the weight and they will handle better, stop better , get better mileage. Maybe the new Camaro shoould have been the size of a civic but with a big ass engine......like the days of old. Novas and such.

fishtail8

12-17-2008, 10:17 AM

I'm too young to remember the days of ordering a car optioned the way you wanted it. Forcing buyers to take this package or that package which includes a bunch of stuff you don't want turns me off.

I also would like to have the option to order a stripped down car/truck with no A/C, vinyl floor, crank windows, etc. I realize that the day will never come, so I'll just build em the way I want em...

rob07002

12-17-2008, 10:19 AM

I'll start by saying I love my GM products and have bought nothing but since 93. I truly hope to see a bright new GM that is thriving in the very near future.

With that being said, here are some small item I would like to see. They apply to GM from a macro perspective and does not point at any specific brands or models per say.

1) Al a cart buying expereince. Start with the base model and go from there. It has been echoed in this thread a number of times that people want certain options and features and do not want to have to buy luxury group 1 or trim group 3 to get them, I.E. I want a sunroof or leather seats, but have absolutely no use for the heated/cooled glove box!, yet I have to spend umptine thousands just to get my leather seats as part of a group. All car co's are guilty of doing this and i understand the rationale why and cost savings, logistic saving, etc, be we are talking about our dream GM here so start with this.

2) Styling needs to be a priority! GM IMHO, is light years ahead of others in the drivetrian department, but has lacked in styling in the past. Chrysler and Ford, absolutely naild the Challenger and Mustang, but GM dropped the ball on the GTO and the new Camaro, albeit very cutting edge, I think could have been slightly more pure. BTW, Tony I do plan to buy a 2010 or 2011, vert when it comes out. GM has been paying attention here as well and thank you for that. The Sky/Solstice, new Malibu, G8, trucks and Denalli/Escalade SUV's are georgous vehicles, and the new Caddy lineup should be in museums for their incredible lines.

3) More Diesels! GM needs to make diesels more avialable for the SUV/Truck lineup. No diesel option in a 6000lbs H2 is absurd, and I believe could have saved that brand from such backlash when gas was $5+ per gallon.

Anyway, that's my $.02. Keep up the good work, I am behind my GM!

JEFFTATE

12-17-2008, 10:33 AM

The transportation buying consumers of America have lost the belief that their dollars are being spent wisely when they buy an American brand.
The money is not being spent to help make our country's economy stronger.
Half the companies parts are outsourced to China and Mexico anyway.
And the money that is being spent goes to overpad the pockets of corrupt , greedy and inept Corporate Leaders.
So , regardless of what products the Big 3 offer , they have to regain the trust of the American Consumer.

Well , that being said:

I'd like to see no frills ECONOMY coupes and sedans with super high fuel mileage 4-cyl turbo diesels.

And lightweight , powerful performance cars.
Without all the added electronics.
Who needs OnStar and vehicle navigation systems anyway ?
Everyone knows ( or should know ) how to read a map.

Also , Trucks should be for working.
Not loaded with trim and features you don't need for work.
That would equate to an economical work vehicle.

The Big 3 need to trim the excess from their cars .
This would equate to economy in a lot of consumers eyes.

Damn True

12-17-2008, 10:36 AM

I'd like to see no frills ECONOMY coupes and sedans with super high fuel mileage 4-cyl turbo diesels.

The Big 3 need to trim the excess from their cars .

I agree. BUT..... the driver interface bits can't feel cheap. You have to put a nice feeling steering wheel, shift knob, seats and HVAC controls in it.

The hot-hatch idea above is a good one.

Ford made a mint globally with the Focus and the international version is still a great car. The current US version blows.

Build a small, 2dr hatch with a 1.8 TDI and a manual. The Astra is a good start bring the TDI version in.

6'9"Witha69

12-17-2008, 10:38 AM

Oh, and I absolutely LOVE the GMC Acadia. I fit in it, it is roomy enough to haul my family, and gets OK gas economy for a 4WD SUV. Please take away some of the frills. I can get a stripped down Toyota Highlander for less $$.

FYI - GM - your 6 speed auto trans SUCKS. That thing searches for gears like a blind man in an open area. :machine: Between the rediculous price for one, and the trans, I cannot justify buying it. $30K for the base 2WD model? What a joke!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/wwwjalopnikcom-1.jpg
Highlanders are in a totally different and lower class than the Acadia. Looked at them. No thank you.

I will agree that the 6 sp can be a little unpredictable and goes from 5-6-5-6 on slight inclines at fwy speeds. If it's on cruise it doesn't bother me.

The Stickman

12-17-2008, 10:49 AM

Ok here is an easy one. The Geo Metro. Now I know a bunch of people are already laughing but hear my case. When I drove truck the company I was at also had a courier service and they had a few of these. They were 1991 models. Well one day it was slow and they asked me if I wanted to take a package in a Metro to Pittsburgh. Now I live on the eastern side of Pa so it's about 5-6 hours across Pa. Well I took this little car and drove no less than 65 and no more than 85. It started to float around above 85. Well once I made the delivery I fueled up and checked the mileage. It got 56mpg!!!! Now this was a little 3 cylinder engine. No hybrid this or that. Just a little engine that could. It was a cheap car too. You didnt have to shell out big bucks like you do for a hybrid. And for those thinking it might be unsafe. Well I bought one of these from my employer and my wife used it as her daily driver. One day she was rear ended by a Airbourne Express van and he was flying. Hit so hard the glove box flew open. BUT visually there was no body damage. The bumper stuff under the plastic cover was damaged. But the car itself was fine. her neck hurt a bit after but the car took it super. So answer me why they can make a car 18 years later that is cheap and get's 50mpg without going to extraordinary measures that increase the price?

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6'9"Witha69

12-17-2008, 10:52 AM

trapin

12-17-2008, 11:01 AM

Just an FYI....My wife has a Saturn Outlook with the 6-speed automatic and I know what you guys are saying about the transmission seeming confused at times. However, there was a recall on all the Lambda vehicles (Outlook, Enclave, Acadia) for the transmissions to be reprogrammed. We just took my wife's in about a month ago to have this done and it fixed the problem. Just a head's up.

Stickman....good point about the old Metro's and the 3 cylinder's. I will note that. By the way....get your name in your signature.

The Stickman

12-17-2008, 11:26 AM

trapin

12-17-2008, 11:38 AM

Only your first name. You don't have to put your whole name.

Yes, we are starting to mandate that here now. Thanks.

Tony_SS

12-17-2008, 11:38 AM

GM/Chevy has a winning hand - they just need to play it! ALL of the dramatic styling gets lost from the concept to the production version, every time.

They don't need to reinvent the wheel, just redesign it, better. Better than their competition.

Look at how well Scion does, and its all marketing and repackaging. There's nothing groundbreaking there, just good design. GM need to the same, only better.

You never hear a 16yr old girl wanting a Cobalt for her first car, do you?

GM needs to cut the FAT with their Saab, Pontiac, GMC lines and come out with some relative to today's market. They need to create a demand for the product by introducing their own 'Scion' type of brand with cars like these:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

For guys who don't want a compact, how about repackaging their midsize trucks:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

trapin

12-17-2008, 11:42 AM

Very good points Tony. Imagine one of those 3 cars pictured above with a turbo charged 3 cylinder getting 45-50 mpg.

Keep em coming guys.

Otto-813

12-17-2008, 12:42 PM

A small commuter car with good gas mileage that doesn't look like a turd.

Compressed air car for short store trips and such.

6'9"Witha69

12-17-2008, 12:51 PM

Very good points Tony. Imagine one of those 3 cars pictured above with a turbo charged 3 cylinder getting 45-50 mpg.

Keep em coming guys.Exactly what I was thinking of.

And would it kill GM to put more than 4 speed autos into small cars. All the other brands are getting it, unless there is a mileage, strength or other issue I don't know of.

JEFFTATE

12-17-2008, 12:52 PM

Very good points Tony. Imagine one of those 3 cars pictured above with a turbo charged 3 cylinder getting 45-50 mpg.

Keep em coming guys.

Yeah !
That's a good idea too.

1badchevelle

12-17-2008, 01:09 PM

As long as they dont look this. Sorry Guys just had to lighten things up a bit.

TonyL

12-17-2008, 01:15 PM

slowcamaro

12-17-2008, 01:21 PM

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Those cars are getting major play in the new transformers movie. They're only bringing the beat to the market. I think that is a HUGE mistake.. Bring them all. They're all fantastic cars.

But the beat is the "hot hatch" im thinking chevy is missing.

I'm not familiar with the names of those cars but I personally think they all look like ass. The green thing looks like the offspring of pontiac vibe and a honda.

The orange one looks like a jeep liberty and a honda element...

Not exactly a hatch in the group that appeals to me.

And to whoever brought up the small truck market. What ever happened to small trucks? The Nissan hardbody and the original s-10's. Yes the colorado isn't huge by any standards, but its hard to find a small truck. The frontier is about the smallest import truck on the market now and it just seems bulky for what it is.

BonzoHansen

12-17-2008, 01:28 PM

I had a line of thought on models & model lines. GM makes too many cars/nameplates. Even I get confused and I suppose I qualify as a car guy. I could talk to that from my vantage point, but I don’t think you want us to. I like a lot of what GM has now or has coming down the pipe, so here are some basic thoughts.

Make the Impala bigger. Think FWD Caprice. One, so it isn’t mistaken for a Malibu (and vise-versa) from 20 feet. More importantly it needs to fit 3 comfortably in the back – and I mean room for 3 space hogging infant seats. 3 kids today make it almost impossible to by a car. Hey, how about 2 pull-down armrests in the back too. Sometimes I think a wagon version would be good (Malibu as well). Like the G8 wagon pics I’ve seen.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/g8wagon-1.jpg

MPG & green matters, even if gas is cheap at the moment. Being even or a little bit better is not enough. Get MPG up. All vehicles should be flex fuel ready. Hybrid versions of all 4 doors and maybe Camaro too. Shout that from the mountain top.

And to a degree that correlates to HP. Not just GM but everywhere HP has been out of hand for maybe 5+ years. 95% of the people out there have at least 20% more HP than they ever need. IMO the base Camaro being 300hp is nuts. GM probably killed the ‘secretary’ market yet again. I believe some people are going to drive it and find out its too damn fast. That car needs the ecotech for the base. Don’t market it by #of cyl, market it by CID or HP. You want that in 2.4L, 3.6L or 6.2L? 240hp, 300hp or 420hp? Holy crap, 240 is better than top Camaro HP from like 74-90.

This is off topic but after all this bad press that isn’t going to subside for years it should be said. Bulk up the warranty again. Minimum 5/50 bumper to bumper on top of the current d/t warranty. Better yet, 10/100 b2b for initial purchaser (with today’s version transferable for free or 10/100 for a $500 fee or something). Also some kind of independent backing is absolutely needed (i.e. insured). Even if GM gets their bridge loans many still don’t trust that a GM warranty will be of any value. That is a constant song I hear from folks here at work. They are afraid of 18 months from now all this coming up again. And I can’t argue with them. Stand behind them like never before. Ads with American flags and workers running robots and all that jazz. And stomp on any dealer that makes the buyer's life hell in the service bays.

Finally, fire everyone in marketing. I am positive if GM found the cure for cancer only we would know it. And it would come with on star. (BTW, sell retrofit on-star).

gmorris

12-17-2008, 01:45 PM

My wife and I needed to buy a new 4wd truck last summer to replace our 2001 silverado (that started having nonstop problems at 140000km...nother story). We had some things that we specifically needed in a new vehicle:
-comfortable cabin for long trips (we put a lot of miles on in the summer hauling mountain bikes)
-comfortable seating for 4 people
-6.5 foot bed (my mountain bike will not stand up in the back of a 5.5 foot bed)
-rear doors have to open independently of the front because I was tired of not being able to open the rear doors on my 2001 when someone parked too close beside me to fully open the front door.

I wanted to buy another GM but at the time (and this may have changed since) they did not offer the combination of a 6.5' bed with a crew cab. It was either stupid backward opening doors or an ultra-short bed. The idiot salesman even had the nerve to tell me that nobody made that combination in any brand...after I told him I had driven the exact thing in a Toyota Tundra an hour before. We ended up buying the Toyota and it has been great to me. Since they filled me needs before they will be the one to beat next time I shop for a new truck.

Teh dealership expereince was also totally differet . Teh GM dealer was rude and did not offer a test drive. He didn't listen to me when I asked for a cash price with no options...instead he brought me a quote for a fully loaded vehichel with additional dealer isntalled options and fully financed. The Toyota dealership offered a test drive right away and listend to what I wanted. I got the distinct feeling that the GM dealership fealt I had to earn their trust rather than the other way around.

icebird84

12-17-2008, 01:48 PM

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

What the hell is the world coming to ?

PARKERRS

12-17-2008, 01:58 PM

Tony,
I have always bought and owned a vehicle from one of the big three up until 18 months ago.

I run the local news paper and we also do commercial printing on the side. I keep a standard delivery van (plain jane 3/4 ton chevy) for 85% of all my deliveries and transport. The van is only 2 years old now and has been a good trouble free vehicle.

The problem is 1-2 days a week I need another delivery vehicle. I don't want another delivery van just sitting around idle 4 out of 5 days a week, so I try to buy a vehicle that can be used by my wife as a daily driver or by myself to call on clients when not being used as a delivery unit.

I had a 1982 Malibu station wagon that served this purpose for 300,000 miles and lasted till 1998. It had seats that folded "FLAT" to form a flat level load surface from the front seats to the tailgate, hell you could haul 4x8 plywood and a load of 2x4's when needed. I replaced it with a GMC Yukon Denali in 1999, it was the same design inside, fold the seats and a "FLAT" level load surface from the driver back, loads of room for transporting boxed paper goods or bundled newspapers to the customer or post office.

When it came time to replace the Denali in '07 I went back to GM since they had served me well for this. The new Yukon design was very appealing from the outside but the inside was unusable for this task.They had turned it into a 3 row seating MOM TAXI. Even with the seats folded and or removed there was no longer a flat load floor, there was also no alternative such as a station wagon. The only thing available was a cargo van, mini-van, or truck with a camper cover. The wife did the mini-van thing for twelve years and refused to go there again for the sake of change. So we looked at Ford and Dodge and it was the same result other than the Dodge Magnum and that is a poor excuse for a usable station wagon cubic foot wise inside.

So I wound up with a Toyota Sequoia because the rear seat would remove and the centers tuble compactly against the front to provide a flat load area with a high roof. Now I'm not pleased with this vehicle other than that, it gets less mileage than the full size Denali with 4 wheel drive and it is a 2 wheel drive model. The ride is harsher and noisier, it has less power (4.7 as opposed to the 5.7) and has a very cheap and plastic feel about it, but it was the only vehicle to fit the criteria, foriegn or domestic.

PLEASE would the big three put the UTILITY back in the SUV. They used to be used by road crews state and local govt. crews and survey crews for the same reasons. Not everyone wants a soccer mom taxi, or to keep up with the Joneses with the fanciest suv on the block. Some of us still want them to WORK OUT OF. Remember the old K5 blazers and the F-150 Broncos?

Also the stationwagon with useable and functional space could be viable as the mini-van market has a glut and people have started turning to crossovers as an alternative.
Thats my long story about a 1 item small segment but with enough thought into each small segment they will find success.

I'm also in agreement about options being a la cart like 30 years ago, the package option deal kills enough sales to outwiegh the manufacturing savings from doing it that way in my opinion. And concentrate on appealing sexy design to go with the techno wonder pwer trains. In the 50's and 60's GM was tops in the world for beautiful design, think about some of the cars from Harley Earl. Take whats long, sleek, and sexy, then make it dependable, economical, and recall free and you have the magic mix.

The truck fest is over and it's time to compete where your being hit the hardest. plain jane economical daily drivers with good looks. In the 50's chevy offered one style with multiple bodies (coupe, sedan, wagon) and three trim levels to suit the buyer with a la cart options and set sales records. The formula still works, a lot of the foriegn competition are using this model and making big sales.

Sorry to write a book just wanted to say what I thought that might be relevant.

Tommy Parker

The Stickman

12-17-2008, 02:47 PM

I'll relate another story but this one relates to dealers and how they can be clueless. I was at a Dodge dealer And was remarking how their Neon ACR(American Club Racer) could be had for around 10K and how it was stripper model. The slaes guy said no that they didn't sell them that cheap because they had to add the options on that the factory left off. The dolt had no idea that was entirely the point was that the car came with those options off to save weight.

TonyL

12-17-2008, 03:28 PM

slownova

12-17-2008, 03:51 PM

a regular cab short bed diesel truck. (which might happen with the 4.5 if that comes out?) also a rear end in a 3/4 ton truck that isn't a pile of ****.

bobbaganoosh

12-17-2008, 03:52 PM

Tony,
I'm also in agreement about options being a la cart like 30 years ago, the package option deal kills enough sales to outwiegh the manufacturing savings from doing it that way in my opinion.

Me too, why shouldn't I be able to order a reg. cab 1/2 ton swb with a rubber floor, crank windows, bench seat & 6.0 motor? The truck I have now has every bell & whistle on it, I had to get it that way in order to get the few things I wanted. So now I have a luxury vehicle instead of a truck.

Hartz

12-17-2008, 04:10 PM

I'm very interested in the 2010 Cadillac CTS wagon, but if they made the G8 wagon (which would presumably be a little cheaper) I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.

While we're at it, it would be nice if GM made a "premium" small car. Think MINI or Volvo C30 or Audi A3. I want a small car with which to commute, but don't want to give up the luxo goodies and don't want an interior that is the same as the $11K base model. The Cobalt SS comes close, but is a little boy racer. I know some wag will bring up the Cimmeron (sp?) and clearly that wasn't the answer either.

cluxford

12-17-2008, 06:05 PM

In my view the "not providing what people want" is a misnomer.

GM worldwide ha probably the broadest range of vehicle options, a car or truck to suit any buyers needs.

As it has been said before I think the issue is can people get what they want for a price they can either afford or are willing to pay.

Now I am not going to delve into the cost of building a car by GM or an other manufacturer, in my view the cost is irrelevant on a per car basis. Costs comes down to so many other factors.

Take me for example, I live in Australia andwe have GM Holden. Great line up of cars and I love my HSV (Holden Special Vehicles) 300Kw Grange...just love it.

The VE Commodore runs the same platform the new Camaro has been based around and in fact the VE Commodore is re-badged as the Pontiac G8.

But we cannot access a C6 Vette, or the Caddy CTS or many many other GM cars.

I am aware that other models are the same but re-badged, but not many, only a handful.

My suggestion is similar to those above, if we truly want to get GM back to the top the auto manufacturers where it rightly belongs I would tak ea world wide holistic view and;
1. Massive massive model consolidation - build once sell many many times the world over, instead of models on a per country basis. But make all models in both right and left hand drive
2. Options. As said above in other posts make mny creature comforts optional so the buyer can access all models at a price they are willing to pay as long as they are willing to compromise

I think GM has an awesome line up of vehicles, plenty to choose from, but it is trying to be all things to all people. It can be all things to all people but the approach needs to be a worldwide one (like other manufacturers do).

I would buy more GM cars, if we in Oz could access more of the cars available in the US.....that's what I would like to see

Kenova

12-17-2008, 06:34 PM

I have no desire to buy another car anytime soon, I'm quite happy with my '04 Silverado. Perhaps some of my past experiences may help.
My wife and I bought a '90 Tempest new. Decent little car, comfortable interior for the wife but a little bit cramped for me (and I'm only 5'8"), and reasonably good gas mileage and performance. But damn it, that front wheel drive sucked. It would have been twice the car with rear wheel drive.
We replaced it in 2000 with a Grand Am. The Tempest was still in good enough condition that the dealer used it as a courtesy car. The Grand Am was much nicer. Quieter, more room, decent mileage, more power, but damn it, that front wheel drive just plain sucked. It would have been three times the car with rear wheel drive.
Last year we replaced the Grand Am with a Jeep Liberty (the Trailblazer was too big and expensive). It's noisier than the Grand Am or my truck and I haven't heard the wife complain about gas mileage, just the price of the stuff. But it doesn't have front wheel drive.
As you can see, my biggest complaint about the last two cars we had was the front wheel drive. I don't car if it's "superior" (BS) or that most people can't tell the difference, I don't like front wheel drive, and absolutely refuse to buy it again. I still resent that the manufacturers have crammed it down our throats.
If I buy another car, it must have rear wheel drive and be easy to get in and out of. Something the size of my '77 Vega with rear wheel drive, quiet interior, some balls, and a slightly higher seat position (H position ?) would be the perfect small car for me.
As for the dealerships, they all need a good slapping around. The salesmen know less than me and the service departments don't know a damn thing about the computers that are in everything they sell. If the aftermarket can get into the software and find and fix problems, why can't the dealership service department? They can't even (or won't) reflash a computer without scanning it, which usually shows nothing.

Ken

EFI69Cam

12-17-2008, 07:24 PM

FYI - GM - your 6 speed auto trans SUCKS. That thing searches for gears like a blind man in an open area. :machine: Between the rediculous price for one, and the trans, I cannot justify buying it. $30K for the base 2WD model? What a joke!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/wwwjalopnikcom-1.jpg

The 6sp in my Aura does not search for gears. Maybe the GMC calibration is what needs work?

EFI69Cam

12-17-2008, 07:28 PM

justanova

12-17-2008, 10:05 PM

I think gm has a lot of what people want and are so close on so many levels. I personally like quite a few of gm's offerings (g8, g6,cts,ctsv,etc....)

I had a 2005 silverado, loved that truck, drove awesome, no major problems, the only thing I ever had to take it to the dealer for was to get the cd player replaced twice, an exhaust leak, and get an update for the pushbutton 4wd. I ended up selling it due to not needing it anymore but in hindsight it was more luxo than truck....it had a lot of stuff i wouldn't have gotten if I could have ordered it ala-cart.

I love the new camaro but the only problem I see is they dont have a base model with a v8, if i could get a v8 camaro for under 25k I would probably buy one, but as it is I will have to wait a few years and buy one used.

I also agree to some extent to what some have said about thinning the product lines, It doesnt make too much sense to me to have a bunch of "re-badged" vehicles in the same market segment competing against each other, just seems counterproductive to be competing against yourself when there is enough other non gm owned mfgrs to compete with.

you said to use examples to support our arguments so here goes, the options ala cart works, if you go to bmw's website you can build a 3 series starting at $33,400 and add options and accy's to make it $62,456 and up until recently the dealers were selling everyone they could get.(I know, I work as a tech. at a bmw dealership, and worked at another one before. going on 6 years now at bmw) below is a copy/paste from http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/BYO/Default.aspx

if anyone is curious click the link and select a model, then start adding up options and option packages, just click on them and the total at the right will reflect the selected options.

the below link is the completed 3 series build with all the options selected, (I tried to cut/paste the buildsheet but it didn't transfer well so i edited to add the link)

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/BYO/Byohome.aspx?enc=e6weYaj6e3EDYF7UWBzVMfOuY7S1ZTC3X XpW6I5WRMA=

sorry for such a novel, but I have been a long time supporter of gm, as well as most of my family and I usually dont post in these discussions because I usually dont have anything to add that hasn't already been said but I felt the need to point out that the options ala-cart indeed works.

justanova

12-17-2008, 10:19 PM

What the hell is the world coming to ?

Kinda looks like they(GM) has been paying attention to the succes of the scion cars:enguard:

TonyL

12-18-2008, 12:23 AM

Kinda looks like they(GM) has been paying attention to the succes of the scion cars:enguard:

indeed. And it looks, to me at least, that they've bested them at their game. Those three cars are hugely more attractive than their scion counterparts and the "jeep" looking one, is in a class all by itself. there is no other vehicle like it in it's size and price range. the liberty is much bigger. That thing's smaller than an HHR.

Give that group of designers the reigns, and good things will happen.
All of those cars are breaths of fresh air.

T_Raven

12-18-2008, 04:54 AM

Those three little cars are "edgy" and exactly what they need to make. they are meant for young first time buyers. theyre cheap and noticeable. I respect them for that. they need an answer to scion. They also came about in a "contest" that actually asked buyers like you and me what we thought. Not some random focus group. It's forward thinking like *that* that will save GM. The only thing I don't like is GM asking me to pick only ONE. ALL three are perfect fighting fodder against Scion. And all three are infinately cooler looking than anything anyone else offers in that segment.

I agree with this post. Those cars look cool as hell to me, especially the green one. Would I buy one? Probably not because I need a truck, and the cars I have are for fun. So I have a retarded number of muscle cars.

I do think GM has too many models. Some have said Pontiac should go. That's rediculous to me as it has always been GM's performance brand. The new camaro seems cool but I'd never buy one. I WOULD buy a new Trans Am if I liked the styling. But if it were $40k I'd have to buy a used one in a few years. I like the idea of having more control of what options the vehicle has, though I do understand it's easier to build specific trim levels all the same.

The G8 is great and would be awesome in 2 door as well. The trucks are nice but I like my '00 Silverado better. I'm not a fan of the new interior. Interiors are getting too complicated these days. Unfortunately all of the vehicles I like are more than I want to spend. What's a totally stripped down 2wd regular cab truck? $30k? That's freaking rediculous.

This is a pretty hard post to respond to because it's hard to explain our tastes in vehicles. I'm not a big fan of the styling of a lot of vehicles. I do think GM is doing well mechanically and fuel mileage seems good considering a silverado can beat a jeep or similar with a smaller engine. I DO NOT like the idea of flex fuel and hybrids. Ethanol isn't economical. Hybrids are overly complicated IMO. I was a Honda tech for a few years. I'm not impressed with the hybrids they build. Gas mileage is marginally better, the cars are heaver and slower. Not to mention that the battery packs are expensive and potentially bad for the enviernment when these cars start hitting junk yards. Sure they can probably be recycled but every process we do creates polution and doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of a hybrid car? I think small, quite, efficient turbo diesels are the way to go for the average commuter car and truck. I like raw american power and like gas engines in my muscle cars, so cars that fit that bill should stay gas.

I would like to see more AWD cars. I hate front wheel drive but driving a RWD car in the snow is just asking for a wreck (that's one of the reasons I own a truck). If I were married and needed a car for the wife I'd be looking at Subarus. I think GM needs to compete with that market. If for some crazy reason I decided to only own one car I'd get a WRX because they look good, they're sporty and can be modified to run as fast as I'd need, and they are good in the snow.

Steve Chryssos

12-18-2008, 05:17 AM

I want a 2009 Chevrolet Kingswood station wagon. Less frontal area than an SUV, but plenty of people and storage capacity. and don't build a cross-over. Give me a gen-U-ine V8 rear wheel drive station wagon. I want a car not a truck or a half-truck.
Technology in the form of ASR and ABS means that I don't really need front wheel drive or four wheel drive anymore--at least not in NYC.

trapin

12-18-2008, 05:25 AM

Do you have a pic, Steve? I've never heard of that one. Is it from across the pond?

Paul_J

12-18-2008, 05:26 AM

I like the three small cars but build a version that a 46 year old guy won't feel like an idiot driving. I don't wear baggy pants with my shorts sticking out, bumping to rap with my hat on sideways. I'd like a respectable small car that's cheap. The Avao is getting there but I'd feel better about it NOT being a Daewoo/Suzuki whatever car.

TonyL

12-18-2008, 08:54 AM

I think steve means an "updated version of" a kings wood. think 70s and such big giant wagons.

TonyL

12-18-2008, 08:56 AM

this is neat. The car is a concept nubiera from 06
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

TonyL

12-18-2008, 08:58 AM

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

6'9"Witha69

12-18-2008, 08:59 AM

The only thing I don't like is GM asking me to pick only ONE. ALL three are perfect fighting fodder against Scion. And all three are infinately cooler looking than anything anyone else offers in that segment.
The only problem with introducing 3 new vehicles simultaneously into a competing market is over saturation. While I agree each could stand on it's own, it is exactly the "too many vehicles" which is getting them into trouble, whether it be under one badge or 4, it is still too many.

TonyL

12-18-2008, 09:00 AM

this little thing is my favorite. It's called the "trax" for those unfamiliar.
It has loads of "what was that??!"

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/0704_z2007_chevrolet_trax_conceptfront-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/_ChevroletTraxConcept1-1.jpg

TonyL

12-18-2008, 09:02 AM

the "beat" from behind. (get used to looking at this end Yaris)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

6'9"Witha69

12-18-2008, 09:03 AM

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Those noses (particularly the headlights) look like the Civics of 10+ years ago. There is sooo much more they could do to the fascia.

Now that I look at it, how old are these pics? THat is the old front end styling with the chrome crossbar. Not the more modern look ie HHR, Malibu, etc.

TonyL

12-18-2008, 09:04 AM

and what ever happend to THIS awesome car?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/chevroletwtccultimaconcept20060928032211-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/0610_zchevrolet_wtcc_ultra_conceptfront_-1.jpg

TonyL

12-18-2008, 09:05 AM

Those noses (particularly the headlights) look like the Civics of 10+ years ago. There is sooo much more they could do to the fascia.

Now that I look at it, how old are these pics? THat is the old front end styling with the chrome crossbar. Not the more modern look ie HHR, Malibu, etc.

They *are* old. (from 05) That was the point. see what we here in the US *didnt* get? Look at that awesome Civic alternative. If that was here in the states. GM would have had a fighting chance. Those cars were NICE. inside and out.

Damn True

12-18-2008, 09:31 AM

That wagon would be perfect in AWD. I'd buy one this week. My Subie is getting a little tired.

Seriously, whatever happened to the wagon? I mean an SUV holds the same cargo but is silly unless you are towing some serious weight, a minivan won't hold any weight at all, won't tow at all and requires a testicle-ectomy to drive. Crossover? Please. They are FWD car chassis with long a-arms.

I mean, I clearly recall my dad hitching our boat to the back of a Ford LTD Country Squire wagon (460). Loading the thing down with two weeks worth of crap for one week at the lake and towing it easily up any hill we encountered between our home and any of the lakes we used to visit. BTW, that car had over 280k on it when sold and still ran like a top.

A body-on-frame, full size, v-8 wagon with DOD, or better yet diesel (better mpg) would be great.

That little blue concept hatch up there is HAWT!

Twentyover

12-18-2008, 09:36 AM

TonyL

12-18-2008, 09:39 AM

what happend to the wagon? It became stereotyped into "fat old mom pants owns one". So the word "crossover" was invented to shield buys from that word. Personally, I think you are right, and the wagon's time has come again. Many people are snapping up these non SUV, SUVs.

Damn True

12-18-2008, 09:43 AM

Me- personally-

I have a 1976 Capri. Bought it in 1979, first car out of school. Never could bring myself to part with it.

Distilling what it is, it's just a 3/4 scale ponycar. Came w/ a 2.3 Lima or a 2.8 Cologne. I'm putting a 4.0 OHV Cologne in, backed by a 2.95:1 first gear T5.

What do I want? I want another 76 Capri. An American BMW 3 series (OK, this capri was built ok Koln, West Germany), w/ an economy and performance engine and suspension options. Just like we had in the 70's. Except get rid of the struts and put a couple A-arms in each side

I think you are spot on. I mentioned something similar earlier in the thread. IMO a smallish luxury sport-sedan would be a really big winner. Infinity, Lexus and BMW sell every one they build. But they'd have to provide the Lexus feel and the BMW performance at the Infinity price.

I don't for a second believe that GM/Ford can't do it better.

Damn True

12-18-2008, 09:44 AM

James OLC

12-18-2008, 09:59 AM

I think you are spot on. I mentioned something similar earlier in the thread. IMO a smallish luxury sport-sedan would be a really big winner. Infinity, Lexus and BMW sell every one they build. But they'd have to provide the Lexus feel and the BMW performance at the Infinity price.

I don't for a second believe that GM/Ford can't do it better.

I agree True and like I said earlier in this post, a luxury sport-coupe would be a very welcome addition.

TonyL

12-18-2008, 10:08 AM

So they moved to minivans because that is somehow cooler?

Yes and no. the original dodge caravan outsold the wagons of the time because they were new, smaller overall, and had 4 cylinders, and still had more room inside, coupled with that "riding high" feel women like. Let's also not forget the major "safety" push dodge sold them on when they came out. They were sold as the safest vehicle to transport your family in when they came out. (good marketing idea, actually.) When minivans were brand new, the soccer mom stigma didn't exist yet. And they flourished right up until the SUV made its debut. Women saw a vehicle that could get them out of the "soccer mom" van and still provide the utility. Now, the SUV has the soccer mom stigma attached to it, as well as it being a HUGE gas guzzler. Time for a wagon to come in, and say "anything they can do, I can do better."

Tony_SS

12-18-2008, 10:21 AM

and what ever happend to THIS awesome car?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/chevroletwtccultimaconcept20060928032211-1.jpg

THAT'S what I'm talkin' about right there. Offer multiple powerplant levels including a diesel and you'll have winner, IF it's marketed correctly.

trapin

12-18-2008, 10:50 AM

Even though you guys are going off tangent with this thread...I'm still technically getting what I want.

I will have to summarize it though.

Still....I am sad that most of the detractors have opted not to participate.

TonyL

12-18-2008, 11:43 AM

The thing is the detractors are working from a cumulative posision. Years of drab designs, poor quality and customer experiance are a problem in and of itself. I have the ability to look beyond that, and only at the designs themselves. It's clear that there is hope in that regard. The designers are there. The problem is that the leadership keeps giving the "good stuff" to other parts of the world, while the US gets crap cars. This isn't just GM, it's ford and everyone. THAT **HAS** TO STOP. Our cars should be the envy of EVERYONE else. They are AMERICAN car companies after all. Why does Europe get all the cool cars???! it's insanity. And it's an insult. Recitfy this, and you'll see a paradigm shift in the way people look at the US's cars.

I mean, it's like american car companies are saying "you (the US) aren't good enough for cars like these.

the matiz. we get the aveo? really?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

TonyL

12-18-2008, 12:06 PM

and I want to see this car (a holden caprice) as an impala here.

and no that's NOT a G8. its much bigger. The G8 is based off of the commodore.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Damn True

12-18-2008, 12:39 PM

...and there is the platform for the full-size wagon.

(with a diesel)

TonyL

12-18-2008, 12:48 PM

indeed. That car as a wagon is FULL of win.

Mr.VENGEANCE

12-18-2008, 01:05 PM

aw Tony dont tell me youre sayin "for the win" too!?

haha

TonyL

12-18-2008, 01:06 PM

For you True. here's my attempt (using a brand new open source photo editor called Gimp, btw) at creating a Caprice wagon, using the roofline from the commodore (g8) wagon. Looks sick. WANT.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

TonyL

12-18-2008, 01:08 PM

aw Tony dont tell me youre sayin "for the win" too!?

haha

yeah. l33tn33s FTW. I play too much FPS, and am exposed to that stuff too much. LOL.

Combat Arms owns.

bigvegan

12-18-2008, 01:10 PM

Tony R. - Just take that pic Tony L. created and forget all our other comments.

If that were available, I'd buy it right now.

cluxford

12-18-2008, 01:43 PM

and I want to see this car (a holden caprice) as an impala here.

and no that's NOT a G8. its much bigger. The G8 is based off of the commodore.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

My 2004 HSV Grange is the model before this one.

The Grange is a Holden Special Vehicle of the Caprice. Lowered, bigger brakes, chipped engine, new interior ad 19 inch wheels (comes with 20's now).

Mine dynoed at 299Kw of the factory floor back in 2004.

It's 5.2 meters (did I spell that right :)) long. Or 17.1 feet long !!

Here are a couple of quick pics
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/Grange_Dec04-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/IMG_0343-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/IMG_0344-1.jpg

However you say that the US doesn't have access to the good stuff ???

Caddy CTS
Corvette

We would line up to see those out here...even the new Camaro is yet to be 100% confirmed to be coming to Oz

Slow Ride

12-18-2008, 01:47 PM

I can tell you one thing that Chevy/GMC doesn't build that has prevented me from buying new for over 5 years and probably forever now. A 1/2 ton, regular cab, short box 2 wheel drive truck with a decent sized V8 and a manual transmission. I love my truck I have now, but it is approaching 200,000miles and is VERY rusty.

Damn True

12-18-2008, 03:23 PM

TonyL

12-18-2008, 04:46 PM

See? See how easy it is??!

bigvegan

12-18-2008, 05:26 PM

Tony L. - Any chance you could put those photo shop / gimp skills to use and let us see what a Nomad / 2dr hatchback version of the Caprice wagon would look like?

Kenova

12-18-2008, 05:32 PM

I thought I'd take another kick at the can. Think of this as constructive criticism.
When I went shopping for a new truck, I looked at the Colorado. Considering the cost, the small difference in size when compared to a Silverado, and the lack of a readily available eight cylinder, I felt the full size truck was a better deal despite the slightly higher price. If the Colorado had been the size of the old S10s and available with a torquey V6 then I would probably have bought one of them instead of the Silverado.
The H3 and H2 baffle me. From what little I have read and heard about these, they are surprisingly good when off road (or have I been misled?). So why are they loaded up with luxury items? Is somebody really going to spend that kind of money, then take them off road? Each model should have a stripper model geared for real off road duty. The H2 desperately needs a smaller engine as standard equipment.
As for option content, the last I checked you can still order the vehicle of your choice with the options you want, although I'm sure there are dealers out there that will say otherwise just to move inventory. Unfortunately, the options are in bundles, but it's still better than settling for what the dealer has on their lot.
I have seen option bundles kill a good idea. When GM brought out the Quadrasteer, it was bundled with crap like leather seats and sunroofs. Something that was more likely to end up on a work truck and you bundle it with a luxury interior? What were they thinking?
Now that holden Grange is beautiful !! I'm assuming that it is rear wheel drive like the rest of Australia's best.

Ken

cluxford

12-18-2008, 05:41 PM

Now that holden Grange is beautiful !! I'm assuming that it is rear wheel drive like the rest of Australia's best.

Ken

it sure is :1st:

TonyL

12-18-2008, 05:44 PM

Tony L. - Any chance you could put those photo shop / gimp skills to use and let us see what a Nomad / 2dr hatchback version of the Caprice wagon would look like?

perhaps. I *just* downloaded the program I used. I still have to learn it. But hopefully I'll figure it out and be able to pull that off.

slowcamaro

12-18-2008, 06:14 PM

That blue hatch quoted in post 83...I'd rock it, either TDI or ecotec turbo.

claytonisbob

12-18-2008, 08:19 PM

All I can say is, it doesn't cost more money to draw up a cool looking car. Thats a lot of what people want anyway, something with attitude. Why are so many people in love with the new throwback cars (Mustang, Challenger, Camaro)... because they are actually distinct and attractive. I don't think you have to copy the style of cars from the 60's to come up with goood design... kinda seems lazy to me. Make some cool looking small, 2 door cars with modest engines, they will be light, cheap to build (because there are less to them) and assuming they're designed right, would probably handle well too (being they weigh less).

Thats another thing, designing a decent suspension cost not much more than a crappy suspension (why does the chevy cobalt have a solid rear axle, and a kia spectra has IRS?) You don't need a bunch of billet parts to make a car handle well, just good geometry.

What cost money when building a car, materials and labor. Good design may take little more labor... but by a small margin.

TonyL

12-18-2008, 09:34 PM

still working the kinks out with the new software, but you get the idea

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

bigvegan

12-18-2008, 09:38 PM

2 door or 4 door, that wagon is straight up badass.

Nice work Tony!

Damn True

12-18-2008, 10:37 PM

It looks nice and all, but a 2 door wagon is like an udder on a bull.

Maybe if the posts on a 4-door were masked to make it look like a 2-door?

TonyL

12-18-2008, 10:40 PM

i have that one too.

Damn True

12-18-2008, 11:10 PM

Saab 9-3 and 9-5 sport combi?

chaz75

12-18-2008, 11:48 PM

i make around 20k a year, i have very limited income to spend on my two old cars let alone some ugly pos that looks like every other one from every other manufacture, i grew up on british sports cars, muscle cars and corvettes, not one of them was ever a fully loaded vehicle (Granted there weren't alot of options to be had on some of them) i dont need a pickup decked out like a caddy, i dont need a caddy thats as fast as a corvette, and i dont need a vette that cost more than a house regadless of how fast or cool or how well it handles, most people cant drive very well anyway, good gas mileage, good brakes, something that makes me proud to look at it, these are things i need, cars can be made to go faster, stop better and do alot of things, but you used to be able to do it in your drive way, turbo diesel i dont need, leather seats are not needed, some foreign car rebaged as something else not needed or wanted, i do love my old skylark and my chevelle but they have a quality look to them, and virtually no options, sorry this is long. chaz

Tony_SS

12-19-2008, 06:15 AM

I'm really liking the Volvo's C30. 227hp, 28mpg. Plus, interesting design.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/k12nae-1.jpg

PARKERRS

12-19-2008, 06:43 AM

I thought I'd be the only one for bringing back the stationwagon. Evidently I was on the right page with that one. It needs to be very usable though, as I stated in my earlier post Dodge tried it with the Magnum but it flopped. The reason it flopped was because there wasn't enough truly real world usable space inside.When they sloped the roofline down all the way to the top of the qaurter panels it killed the inside cu.ft. that you could WORK with. Tonyl's photochop is a beauty, with the rear roof high enough that it doesn't become just a sedan with an oversize trunk, and make the seats fold FLAT for a level load surface. Think about the guy who's gonna use it in place of a truck on occasion with plywood etc., and a mom trying to cram kids bikes and or athletic equipment in it and still have room for the kids. Also the luggage for that family trip, new car trunks are a joke with a family of 4 or more packing for a week or longer at a condo or hotel.

The Holden Caprice Tonyl showed is also a beautiful ride. Think municipalities with this one, rear drive V-8, police dept.'s love that because it handles the rough service with less maintenance costs, and that's a big market. Ford has had a lock on this market for a decade until Dodge recently offered the charger and I see a lot of law enforcement changing over even though the Ford is cheaper due to amortization of tooling and assembly cost. These agencies are tired of using the same old thing for 15 years with no alternative.

Think basic, qaulity work vehicle then provide options for the individual. This worked with unparalleled success for Chrysler. Remember the K- car and original mini-van. Govt. agencies bought them by the train load for every use in the book. Municipalities such as city, county, and state make up an awful large segment of the market and buy in bulk, which means cheaper manufacturing since all units in the run have the same build, color, and options.

I love those two rides Tony.

Tommy

Shiro666

12-19-2008, 06:59 AM

I would like a full sized, Chevrolet Car.

I would like this car to have a V-8, be rear drive, have a stick, and offer unique styling.

I want comfy seating for all of my friends.

and a huge back seat for entertaining fat girls.

I would like a to be able to do light towing, and I want a gigantic trunk.

I would slam it to the ground ( or load it with fat girls ), steelie's with snows for the winter and wide 18's for summer.

My pa's 2005 Caddy weighs a ton and knocks out 26mpg. This should too.

What do you think?

trapin

12-19-2008, 07:03 AM

TonyL....nice work. We should have you sitting over at Design Center.

However, you'll need a snowblower...and some rock-salt-throwing skills.

65BBODY

12-19-2008, 09:41 AM

id be stoked if they imported the Holden Caprice and made another badass rear wheel drive Impala SS.
Why not????????????????????????????

65BBODY

12-19-2008, 09:43 AM

I'm really liking the Volvo's C30. 227hp, 28mpg. Plus, interesting design.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/k12nae-1.jpg
the coolness of this car disappeared when that D-Bag from the Twilight movie was the pilot of this thing in the movie. :bsjerk:

Damn True

12-19-2008, 11:21 AM

Thats another thing, designing a decent suspension cost not much more than a crappy suspension (why does the chevy cobalt have a solid rear axle, and a kia spectra has IRS?) You don't need a bunch of billet parts to make a car handle well, just good geometry.

The Cobalt SS is one of the best handling fwd cars on the market from any manufacturer. Seems like that solid axle works just fine. Why throw more $$ at a car that is already sold at a loss?

TonyL

12-19-2008, 11:48 AM

and that cobalt's suspension was tuned by mark stielow himself.
I'm pretty sure when it comes to suspension tuning, he may know a thing or two. I hear talk that he even me sort of a big deal to this "pro-touring" crowd I've heard of, and they are all about cool suspensions and handling and stuff.

trans-am nut

12-19-2008, 12:23 PM

1.)Get rid of the civilian Hummer, they are too big and no-more useful than an SUV.
2.) Get rid of the GMC line of trucks as they are almost exact copies of Chevy trucks anyway.
3.) Start pushing the hybrid and electric cars.
4.) MAKE A COMPLETE CAR IN AMERICA, from parts to finial assembly.
5.) After a few years of doing this they should bring back the TRANS-AM, and only do it when they build a quality concept.

BonzoHansen

12-19-2008, 02:04 PM

6'9"Witha69

12-19-2008, 02:30 PM

The Cobalt SS is one of the best handling fwd cars on the market from any manufacturer. Seems like that solid axle works just fine. Why throw more $$ at a car that is already sold at a loss?

and that cobalt's suspension was tuned by mark stielow himself.
I'm pretty sure when it comes to suspension tuning, he may know a thing or two. I hear talk that he even me sort of a big deal to this "pro-touring" crowd I've heard of, and they are all about cool suspensions and handling and stuff. Same chassis as my HHR SS, and people can vouch for how well it does in the turns.

BonzoHansen

12-19-2008, 05:41 PM

1 please:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

The Stickman

12-21-2008, 10:51 PM

Well I was just watching Transformers again and it triggered a thought that I have heard over and over again. It happened when I was that sweet Solsitis. The thought was that is what they should be building. So many times GM's shows us what they could build but don't. That car is one example. I will offer another car I have ample experience with. The Fiero. It is a much maligned car that has an undeserved reputation. But let me offer examples of what I mean. In 1984 they built the Indy 500 pacecar. It had a 232hp engine based off the stock Iron Duke. It would have been simple to build this as a perfomance version. They later build to test beds with turbocharged aluminum V-6's. Now many admit the reason this did not happen is the boys from Chevy and the Corvette team would have none of this. Which make sense as the Fiero would be lighter and cheaper with hp that would come close during those years. Finally they built the 88 Fiero with the chassis that should have been under it all along. They came up with this prototype for the 89-90 model year.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Looks familar doesn't it? Looks just like the Firebird that would come later. They also developed an aluminum frame that was lighter and stiffer. They had planned to mate it to a 190hp quad4. All that would have made a potent sportscar. They also made a Convertible that could have been offered before the Miata came out and would have sold great when the open top small sportscar fad took off.

T_Raven

12-22-2008, 02:43 AM

The Stickman

12-22-2008, 07:33 AM

Huh? they do make the solstice:secret:.....or was there something special about the one in the movie?

To my knowledge they have never made the Hardtop version like this.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/12639d1175542626pontiacsolsticetransform-1.jpg

Damn True

12-22-2008, 08:02 AM

To my knowledge they have never made the Hardtop version like this.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/12639d1175542626pontiacsolsticetransform-1.jpg

Available in the spring.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

TonyL

12-22-2008, 10:34 AM

the "real" hardtop solstice looks better imho.

BonzoHansen

12-22-2008, 11:43 AM

The 1st pic is the SCCA hardtop lid, no?

The 2nd one looks kind of chrysler crossfire-ish.

TheRev

12-22-2008, 03:26 PM

Theres stuff I want, Im just not willing to spend 10K over what you guys in the states pay just because Im Canadian

Steve Chryssos

12-22-2008, 05:20 PM

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

STOP!! That's it! Don't think about it. Don't form a committee. Don't ask the tree huggers, consumer advocates, bean counters, or lawyers. Just do it.

T_Raven

12-23-2008, 06:22 AM

I see now on the solstice. I'm thinking someone makes a hard top for them though, similar to the one you can get for an S2000, but I might be wrong.

Mr.VENGEANCE

12-23-2008, 06:49 AM

STOP!! That's it! Don't think about it. Don't form a committee. Don't ask the tree huggers, consumer advocates, bean counters, or lawyers. Just do it.

Co-signed.

BonzoHansen

12-23-2008, 09:01 AM

The 1st pic is the SCCA hardtop lid, no?

The 2nd one looks kind of chrysler crossfire-ish....follow-up...

So I’m out to dinner last night with a guy who mods at GMI (he’s generally more up to date on gm stuff than I even care to be) and we were talking about this car. He thought the new hardtop solstice and the HHR were both drawn by a former Chrysler designer who was involved with the PT cruiser (and maybe the crossfire). Is this true? Fire him. GM should not be stealing ideas. IMO bad ones at that.

Damn True

12-23-2008, 09:04 AM

I see now on the solstice. I'm thinking someone makes a hard top for them though, similar to the one you can get for an S2000, but I might be wrong.

Yes, someone makes a hardtop for the Solstice Roadster. The company is named - PONTIAC.

TonyL

12-23-2008, 09:56 AM

indeed. the hardtop "Jazz" used was the "racing only" hard top available through GM performance parts.

Tony_SS

12-23-2008, 11:59 AM

...follow-up...

So I’m out to dinner last night with a guy who mods at GMI (he’s generally more up to date on gm stuff than I even care to be) and we were talking about this car. He thought the new hardtop solstice and the HHR were both drawn by a former Chrysler designer who was involved with the PT cruiser (and maybe the crossfire). Is this true? Fire him. GM should not be stealing ideas. IMO bad ones at that.

I read that the PT Cruiser and HHR was born from the same designer. Like them or not, both models have sold a crapload of units.

6'9"Witha69

12-23-2008, 01:05 PM

...follow-up...

So I’m out to dinner last night with a guy who mods at GMI (he’s generally more up to date on gm stuff than I even care to be) and we were talking about this car. He thought the new hardtop solstice and the HHR were both drawn by a former Chrysler designer who was involved with the PT cruiser (and maybe the crossfire). Is this true? Fire him. GM should not be stealing ideas. IMO bad ones at that.
Same designer is true (at least for the HHR). The basis for inspiration came directly from each manufacturers heritage, so no real stealing other than a micro SUV/wagon idea.

BonzoHansen

12-23-2008, 01:27 PM

I read that the PT Cruiser and HHR was born from the same designer. Like them or not, both models have sold a crapload of units.

I think they'd sell more it it were different.

Same designer is true (at least for the HHR). The basis for inspiration came directly from each manufacturers heritage, so no real stealing other than a micro SUV/wagon idea.

It's far too close, the average person (ie not us) can't really differentiate them. Given chrysler had a 5 or so year head start, most think they are PTCs.

trapin

12-24-2008, 07:42 PM

I read that the PT Cruiser and HHR was born from the same designer.
Yes. His name is Bryan Nesbitt. Good guy. He's over in Germany right now.

We have sold a TON of those HHR's. I was skeptical at first, but now I'm glad we came out with them. Actually they and the Cobalts and Malibus are all that are selling at the moment.

Tony_SS

12-25-2008, 12:40 PM

Tony, its a shame they are going to be discontinued. I'm still not sure why either... what do they plan on replacing it with?

Tom Welch

12-25-2008, 05:27 PM

Let's see. Lower cost due to cafeteria style option selection for all models. A stripper with a large engine is where muscle cars started. It works. Station wagons, excellent idea, good mileage and good looks when done right. Pontiac offered 5 firebird models in 1967. They advertised this fact a lot, too. Do it again. Lets face it, most 60's and several 70's cars cant be found with a whole bunch of options, now cars cant be found without options on top of options as well as the associated cost to the consumer. GM and Ford and Chrysler need to realize this. How many of us have stated in this thread that options should be just that, options? This is a relatively simple argument to discuss. The challenge will be there for the big 3 to implement this in their plants. Why has it been decided for the consumer, what option packages will be available to them? Dammit, I as the consumer can either buy what 'they' sell or not, it has been the 'not' option far too long. Since no one makes the car I like with options that make sense to me I dont buy. I havent for over 20 years. Remember the Camaro in the late 80's that had the 5.7 and no a/c or manual trans option? What stupidity led to that decision? The same stupidity that has led to the issue at hand.

streetk14

12-25-2008, 05:56 PM

Darn it, I just wrote a long and well thought out response with some good info in it for you, Tony. Unfortunately, it got erased before I posted it and I am now upset.

My post was mainly about my daily driver, which is a 2007 BMW 335i. I know it's not a cheap car (sticker was around $42K) but it is great looking by almost anyone's standards, has 4 doors and a useful trunk, drives and handles better than just about anything, does 0-60 in 4.7 seconds, quarter mile in 13.5, and gets around 30 mpg on the highway (my last trip to LA resulted in 31 MPG at 75-80 MPH on the way there, and a mixed city/highway trip total of 28 MPG by the end of the trip).

I guess my point was going to be that the Cadillac CTS would be the 3 series competitor from GM. The top model V6 CTS just can't match this car's total package. I think the majority of the smaller luxury/sport sedan buyers agree with me based on the 3 series' sales over the last 16 years. So for me, it's not that the CTS is a bad car, or not appealing to me. I think it is a good looking car. What it boils down to is the fact that there are other cars in the same class that I would rather spend my money on. I think I can say the same about a lot of other cars in GM's lineup. Not bad, but not my first choice.

Something else I'd like to touch on is option packages. I was actually pricing out C6 Vettes recently as I will be getting a new car soon. I was discouraged to find that very few options were available by themselves, and most everything required a several thousand dollar option package or trim line upgrade to maybe get one option I really wanted.

If you go build a 3 series on BMW's site, you will find that in addition to the packages offered, most options are available on their own for those people who want to keep cost down or don't want to pay for things they don't want or will not use. As an example, I was able to order my car and keep the price lower by getting only a few options I really wanted (ie. sport seats/suspension, premium sound, heated seats) without paying for a bunch of things I didn't want (ie. leather, navigation, bluetooth).

To me this was a deal breaker for the Corvette. I think most people would agree with me on this.

BonzoHansen

01-01-2009, 05:51 PM

Make the Impala bigger. Think FWD Caprice. One, so it isn’t mistaken for a Malibu (and vise-versa) from 20 feet. More importantly it needs to fit 3 comfortably in the back – and I mean room for 3 space hogging infant seats. 3 kids today make it almost impossible to by a car. Hey, how about 2 pull-down armrests in the back too. Sometimes I think a wagon version would be good (Malibu as well). Like the G8 wagon pics I’ve seen.

Ok, to add to my Impala vs Malibu indecipherability theory...I saw an ad in a Washington DC paper today and the dealer had an ad with an Impala and a Malibu both at $21k, give or take a few hundred. Cars are too close in looks and price.

Either make the impala bigger and more distinguishable or scrap it and make the Malibu bigger and the cruze a bit bigger - aveo-cruze/HHR-malibu (wagon versions for all)

Takid455

01-01-2009, 06:18 PM

*Dude....don't.* ~ trapin

trapin

01-03-2009, 07:20 AM

Guys I think I'm going to close this one down. I am positive I have everything I need to put together a comprehensive study. I want to thank everyone who got involved, I appreciate it. And I hope that something can come out of it.

Thanks again.

Damn True

06-15-2009, 11:41 AM

Looks like they heard us?

http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-cts-wagon.html

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

6'9"Witha69

06-15-2009, 01:15 PM

Saw it last night. Wife hopes it will be abvailable as a Mary Kay car. She really wants one. And if It'll be a company car, score!!

Black-Jacket

06-15-2009, 02:43 PM

let me buy a new camaro like this

v8
manual transmission
crank windows
manual locks
radio delete
no a/c
cloth seats
rubber floor
steel 17's

drop all the fancy **** and let me buy a stripper

Scott Parkhurst

06-15-2009, 03:28 PM

I am loving that Caddy wagon. SO nice!

Too bad I can't afford it...but I like it!

(dreaming of a CTS-V version...which I also could not afford, but would love to see!)

79-TA

06-15-2009, 11:13 PM

Looks like they heard us?

http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-cts-wagon.html

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

You know that's not news, right? It was even at the LA autoshow as a confirmed production model. It is good to see it confirmed again after the bankrupcy. The GT ST was also shown, but ended up getting axed, nevermind the entire G8 model. Anyway, I'd love for wagons to catch on in the states again, but I fear the "station wagon" stigma is too strong. I can't convince anyone in my family that this Caddy is awesome (even though it is.)

thedugan

06-16-2009, 03:31 AM

TBSS with a 6pd auto, DOD and the envoy interior

Mathius

06-16-2009, 02:55 PM

Looks like they heard us?

http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-cts-wagon.html

I don't care for it. The magnum looked better.

I missed this thread when it was relevant. If GM was gonna do a station wagon, I would have liked to see a chassis much like the magnum, badged as the nomad.

Mathius

68Formula

06-17-2009, 05:09 AM

Ralph LoGrasso

06-18-2009, 04:00 PM

At this point, I just want the Z06 and ZR1 to continue production.

Re-activation of the Z/28 Camaro would be nice as well.

Obviously, these cars represent a very small demographic, but hey--that's what I'm interested in.

As far as more economical cars are concerned--lets see some DIESEL cars. I've been saying this since oil prices rose nearly four years ago. There are many Diesel powered cars offered in Europe, yet very few in the States.

A Diesel Cobalt SS would be excellent. The existing Cobalt SS platform is already a fun little car to drive, why not add a Disel option that gets exceptionally great gas mileage to the current lineup.

The new Malibu is such a great looking car--why not build a Diesel version to compete with the TDI Jetta and other cars of that class?

With fuel prices again nearing the ridiculous, Diesel power is really the way to go.

Hybrids are for the tree huggers who want to think (and want others to think) they're doing something good for the enviornment. That is until someone informs them on the process of nickel mining and the subsequent devastation and environmental damage it causes. But hey, you drive a Prius, so you must be doing your part to help save the Earth and stop Global Warming. :rolleyes:

ADaughen

06-18-2009, 05:09 PM

Back when I was shopping for a car (2004).

~$20,000
>30mpg combined
5 or 6-speed
200hp 4 or 6 cylinder
AWD

I had looked at models from all the manufacturers. It is a shame Ford makes a Focus overseas that would be awesome here, but decides not to sell it. I almost got an Acura TSX, but they wouldn't work with me on pricing or the trade-in on my Prelude.

I ended up with 160hp '04 Mazda3s, 5spd, loaded for $17,500 OTD. In hindsight, I should have waited another few months and gotten a deal on a loaded '04 Subaru WRX for ~$22,000 (huge rebates from GM/Subaru right after I bought the Mazda :().

I started looking at cars again. Why is everything so damn expensive*?

*Expensive being relative to what I wish to pay for a commuter/family vehicle.

Cars I have been looking at recently:
G8 GT, $33,000
Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Limited, $30,000
Saturn Sky Redline, $32,000 - (I thought they were supposed to be competing against the Mazdaspeed Miatas...)
Dodge Challenger R/T Classic, $35,000
Ford F150 crew cab, 4x4, $35,000
Toyota Tacoma access cab, 4x4, $27,000

Sadly, the Tacoma is going to be the closest to the new budget, $25,000 after trade-in, and the Legacy is probably the one we'll get due to the 28mpg and the wife doesn't want a truck.

I would LOVE a diesel Tacoma or F150 if it could get 30+ mpg.

If the new Jetta TDI didn't look so... pedestrian (the wagon doesn't look too bad), I would be all over it at ~$23,000. Or if the Mitsu Lancer RalliArt wasn't so boy-racer (co-worker gets revved by EVERYONE)...

It has to handle well, be attractive, get decent fuel economy, and haul the specified amount of passengers comfortably... AWD/4wd is a plus.

Derek69SS

06-18-2009, 06:37 PM

didn't read all the replies but...

mid-size or bigger STATION WAGON with a stick. I really want to buy American, but only the imports produce a decent sized wagon with a stick.

BTW, a "crossover" isn't a wagon, and I won't even consider one. ;)

79-TA

06-18-2009, 09:51 PM

I’ll benchmark my current two vehicles.

Honda Element:

Rear seats flip to the side to offer easy cargo loading
Fit’s a single sized mattress in the rear or a 6 foot ladder
Flip down tailgate for extended carrying capacity or ease of loading
Excellent turning radius for parking maneuvers
All wheel drive optional
Vertical rear hatch allows for luggage to stand upright.

Mazda5

Very good handling characteristics
Feels like a small car
Excellent turning radius for parking maneuvers
Fuel economy in high 20s (would like to target 30mpg on highway)
Seats 6 (but only if last two are small children)
Sliding rear doors for ease of entry into rear (suicide doors on Honda are a PITA)
Quiet interior (relative to Element which has excessive road and wind noise)
Near vertical rear hatch allows for luggage to stand upright.
Sunroof option available
Backup camera available

In addition to these features the new vehicle would:
Be capable of 25mpg city/ 30+mpg highway
0 – 60mph in 7.5s or less
Second row with seating for 2 adults, 1 child / fits 6 adults, 1 child comfortably
Manual or Automatic 6 speeds available
Low-20s price point with A/C, PW, PB, and all safety options)
Power sliding doors optional
3500 lbs towing capable with optional factory hitch

To meet these goals, one would probably need a width/length/height of about 72”/186”/66” (slightly larger than the current Mazda5).

The rear should be relatively vertical like either the Mazda5 to allow luggage to stand upright for maximum carrying capacity on long trips. A turbo 4cyl direct injection gas engine would probably be sufficient. I'm not a fan of hybrids, and diesel pricing fluctuates too much to ensure a payback period for the added cost.

Orice point should be in mid-20s range. Oh, and it needs to run on 87 Octane.

The Honda Element is quite practical even if uninspiring and laden hideous plastic cladding. The Ford Escape is similar in dimensions, but not marketed the same. You might also check out the Jeep Cherokee that was discontinued in 2001. However, being very off-road capable, they don't have the same easy entry and loading as the Element. I don't own any ladders as short as 6 feet.

The Mazda 5 is pretty much one of a kind in the US market. That should say something about demand.

Wagons rock. They offer the same kind of practicality, but retain more car-like characteristics than minivans and crossovers If only they were more accepted, we'd actually have some interesting choices beyond the CTS, now-dead Magnum, and Jetta wagon. Nowadays people insist on driving around in grown-up high chairs (SUVs and Crossovers that aren't used for their seating capacity, off-road capability, or haling abilities.)

Back when I was shopping for a car (2004).

~$20,000
>30mpg combined
5 or 6-speed
200hp 4 or 6 cylinder
AWD

If the new Jetta TDI didn't look so... pedestrian (the wagon doesn't look too bad), I would be all over it at ~$23,000. Or if the Mitsu Lancer RalliArt wasn't so boy-racer (co-worker gets revved by EVERYONE)...

It has to handle well, be attractive, get decent fuel economy, and haul the specified amount of passengers comfortably... AWD/4wd is a plus.

The Ralliart is seriously overpriced junk. I can't believe it was actually considered. The WRX rips it all to shreds in every category imaginable. If you want a real deal, check out Cobalt SS's, which lap tracks just as quickly, if not more, than the twice as expensive Evo X's. You might also check out the HHR SS if more storage is needed. Too bad we're losing just about every performance GM product. Unless you're going rally racing, awd isn't that big of a deal . . . fwd has the bulk of its weight where it's needed in snowy and other low traction condidtions: right on top of the driving and steering tires. Just go with the TDI. Looking at your 2004 criteria, I'm not sure why you'd want the car to look flashy.

ADaughen

06-19-2009, 06:45 AM

The Ralliart is seriously overpriced junk. I can't believe it was actually considered. The WRX rips it all to shreds in every category imaginable. If you want a real deal, check out Cobalt SS's, which lap tracks just as quickly, if not more, than the twice as expensive Evo X's. You might also check out the HHR SS if more storage is needed. Too bad we're losing just about every performance GM product. Unless you're going rally racing, awd isn't that big of a deal . . . fwd has the bulk of its weight where it's needed in snowy and other low traction condidtions: right on top of the driving and steering tires. Just go with the TDI. Looking at your 2004 criteria, I'm not sure why you'd want the car to look flashy.

I had a big reply, but Mozilla closed on me. :(

Colbalt wasn't inspiring in '04, it still isn't today. HHR is definitely not my style. Now, give me a 30's Sedan Delivery, and I'd rock that PT-style. ;)

I'm not looking for something flashy, I just don't want something that looks like an Aveo's fat sister. Just because I wanted to keep it around ~$20k I can't have a nice looking car?

If you're a "Chevy guy" don't feel offended. I didn't like the SRT-4 or SVT Focus, either (excluding the Focus RS in Europe :yum:)

67bird

06-19-2009, 07:25 AM

I don't know if this was already mentioned but here we go. How about offereing more manual transmission options? How come I can't get a half ton truck anywhere now with a 5 or 6 speed manual transmission? Next, I agree with an earlier point, get rid of GMC. Next would be a better line up of v-8's. First, from a cost savings, get rid of the 4.8. Also, the 4.2 in-line 6 in the t-blazer is a joke. Truck line-up should be 5.3/6.0/6.2, also, you have the tooling for a bigger v-8, ditch the 8.1, and build a 454 on an lsx platform. Also, Another item mentioned earlier, is option packages. I understand the "Toyota" manufacturing principle, but come on. This deal should only apply to interior and exterior options. Basically stick with the option groups, but let drivetrain be picked by end user i.e. ( I should be able to pick which engine/trans/rear end gear with either a work truck or a 2LT crew cab).

ADaughen

06-19-2009, 08:34 AM

^^ Agree, it is nice to have a bunch of options.

The problem is, that's not what the general public has been asking for the past 20 years. A great majority want automatics. So to cut down on cost and have automobiles readily available for sale they just make cookie cutter models. When I was pricing out my first car I went from ~25 different models down to ~5 just for the fact of limited transmissions options.

I'd love to have a midsize, US made sedan with a 5 or 6 speed manual transmission, V6 or V8, ~30mpg for ~$25,000 base.

The Mazda6s is the only V6, 5spd, Detroit made car that even comes close to those parameters. And the update they did on the body style is atrocious.

68Formula

06-19-2009, 08:45 AM

I don't own any ladders as short as 6 feet.

The Mazda 5 is pretty much one of a kind in the US market. That should say something about demand.

Wagons rock. They offer the same kind of practicality, but retain more car-like characteristics than minivans and crossovers If only they were more accepted, we'd actually have some interesting choices beyond the CTS, now-dead Magnum, and Jetta wagon. Nowadays people insist on driving around in grown-up high chairs (SUVs and Crossovers that aren't used for their seating capacity, off-road capability, or haling abilities.)

...
You might also check out the HHR SS if more storage is needed.

The ladder comment was for a visual of how utilitarian such a car should be. And actually it turns out it's an 8ft ladder, and it was nice not to have to stick it on the roof.

The MZ5 isn't the only of it's kind on the U.S. Market and even if it were, it doesn't necessarily say anything about the demand. It just means others aren't offering them. Mazda USA complains they can't get the parent plant to supply their demand. Probably why they don't bother to advertise them. And KIA sells the Rondo except it doesn't have the nice sliding doors (and... well... it's a KIA).

These "tall wagon" cars have been highly popular in Europe and Japan as their high roofline, yet compact length provides easy parking with plenty of seating room (Opel Zafira, VW Touran, Mazda5, etc) and good fuel economy. Regular wagons, while longer, are shallow in height, and don't have the capacity. I was able to carry more in a Zafira than in an Audi A6 Wagon and the Audi was about a foot longer.

I checked out the HHR. It's decent room in the rear, but still not as much as a Mazda5 and only seats five max.

The Magnum. I considered it before gas prices went nuts. What amazed me again was how shallow the trunk was. The car is huge, but when you see how much actually can fit back there... wow is it not proportional. Too bad... decent looking car with Hemi power. RIP.

GMachineDartGT

06-20-2009, 10:45 AM

I have it, my 2005 Magnum RT with zero options. Basic full size car, good instruments, room, fold down rear seats, plenty of power, decent mileage (avg 18-20 per tank). Easy to maintain. And best of all, unlike many newer cars on the road, it looks good.

Why do cheaper cars have to be sooooo UGLY?

79-TA

06-21-2009, 09:56 PM

Colbalt wasn't inspiring in '04, it still isn't today. HHR is definitely not my style.

I'm not looking for something flashy, I just don't want something that looks like an Aveo's fat sister. Just because I wanted to keep it around ~$20k I can't have a nice looking car?

I understand that flashy and nice looking are not equivalent. The unforunate thing about modern cars is that just about any good looking car is full of angry-looking styling . . . this is a big part of why I've been so drawn to 05-09 S197's. Anyway, so anything nice looking, is usually aggressive and looks like it has sporting pretentions, but really isn't very capable.

I'd say the Cobalt looks pretty plain, with no really distinctive features . . . which is why it'd be an awesome sleeper that I'd love to drive daily. It's much more fun to blow off an import guy in my Oldsmobile (complete with kleenex box in the rear window) than either of my "fast" cars.

Seeing that you considered the Sky Redline, perhaps you could go looking for a bargain on a used C5 'vette.

My car buying criteria is very different from yours. I've never looked at fuel mileage as a huge factor as the cost of fuel is small relative to the cost of the vehicle . . . that's why I commute in a $1000 Oldsmobile and a $2100 Mustang. (That might not sound very "green" but one should consider the energy costs required to produce a brand new car) Both take 87 octane and consistently return more than 20 mpg under mixed (mostly streets) driving conditions. Furthermore, if something does go wrong, parts are plentiful at salvage yards and I don't have to screw around with OBDII nonsense.

Now, give me a 30's Sedan Delivery, and I'd rock that PT-style. ;)

Do it! :1st:

ADaughen

06-22-2009, 04:20 AM

My car buying criteria is very different from yours. I've never looked at fuel mileage as a huge factor as the cost of fuel is small relative to the cost of the vehicle . . . that's why I commute in a $1000 Oldsmobile and a $2100 Mustang. (That might not sound very "green" but one should consider the energy costs required to produce a brand new car) Both take 87 octane and consistently return more than 20 mpg under mixed (mostly streets) driving conditions. Furthermore, if something does go wrong, parts are plentiful at salvage yards and I don't have to screw around with OBDII nonsense.

Fuel economy because I commute. It isn't unusual to put 30k miles on my car in a year. And the job I was looking at at the beginning of the year would double that distance.

A C5 would be cool, a lot of the guys on my local forum are getting them...

Sedan delivery AFTER my current project (maybe). Wife won't let me pick up more than one at a time. :(