LS2 and LS7 crate engine prices.....

[trapin]

I posted this over at ls1tech.com and thought I'd throw it in here to see what all the g-machiners think.

Over at www.ls7power.com, they have a contest going on to guess the cost of the LS7 crate engine when it comes out in the fall. I couldn't believe the prices some people were throwing out. Most were in the $16,000 to $18,000 price range. Some were over $20,000 and one guy even suggested $30,000.

$20,000? $30,000? Are these guys INSANE??!!

I talked to a guy over at Scoggin Dickey yesterday. They are now selling the LS2 crate engine and the price is $5499. That's not for a short block...that's the complete engine from oil pan to injector. You can contact them at: (800)456-0211. I asked him to guess on the price of the LS7 (which he says will be available in September) and he said $8000-$9000.

The LS2 is rated at 400 horsepower. Why would 100 more horse cost you an additional $10,000? I understand it is hand-built....but C'MON! And there's no twin-turbo or supercharger added to it that would increase the price that much. So I don't care WHAT kind of hocus-pocus magic is going on underneath that manifold, you cannot justify $10,000 for 100 horsepower. That's just insane. And if it were true....why would you waste your money on it? You could probably get the additional 100 horsepower out of the LS2 by playing around with the heads, cam, and intake and still save yourself about $4000 to $6000.

The LS6 was an $8000 engine and my guess is the LS7 won't be much more.

What do you guys think?

[camcojb]

No way in my opinion it will be $10K. Dry sump, titanium rods, etc. They don't have to justify the cost, it's your choice to buy it or not and even at $17K they'll sell a bunch.

How do they justify the ZL-1 RamJet? I think it's about 500 HP and cost $20K+. I can build an all-aluminum big block for a lot less that will make a lot more power.

Jody

[Steve1968LS2]

Well the LS7 is quite a bit different from an LS2.. One of the big things is that it is a dry sump system. The other factor is that the LS7 is more hand assembled than a LS2 and the factory can only make about 30 units a day. This alone will probley drive up the cost, ever wonder why a new Cobra motor is $12k? It's because it is hand assembled and low volume. My guess is that the LS7 in crate form will be a tad less than $10k but will not include the dry sump system.

I should know more in a few weeks :)

Even if the LS7 was $14k(with sump) that would be a deal.. how much does MTI charge for thier 427cui LS1??

[trapin]

I just don't see why you waste your money on it when you could modify the LS2 and get the same numbers for a lot less money? Plus you'll get the aluminum block.

If it comes out at $16,000 to $20,000....I'd have to think anyone buying it would just be doing it so they can say they have an LS7 engine in their car.

That's a lot of bread for bragging rights.

But oh well....to each his own, I guess.

[Steve1968LS2]

How do they justify the ZL-1 RamJet? I think it's about 500 HP and cost $20K+. I can build an all-aluminum big block for a lot less that will make a lot more power.

Jody

Yep.. why is the ZL-1 so expensive? Because it is low volume.. high demand + low volume = high price

The same deal will apply to the LS7 and since they will need most all the engines for production cars the supply will be VERY low..

[JMarsa]

I think the LS7 crate motor won't actually be the real LS7. Sure they'll have a real one for replacement motors which will prob cost +$10K But I think it'll be the same block crank and pistons but have PM rods with a lower redline and no dry sump. Avail in short/long blocks.

--JMarsa

[DarkBuddha]

If it's the handbuilt motor, I wouldn't be suprised to see prices at or above $20k... especially considering the handbuilt supercharged Ford GT 5.4 sells for $40k: http://www.karkraft.com/engines.htm

[parsonsj]

Tony, the LS7 is an aluminum block. Other "features" that really drive the price are titanium rods, forged crank, and dry sump.

I agree with others that some of these features may not make it to the crate motor, which could reduce the price significantly. If not, the $15K or more is about right.

jp

[MarkM66]

I thought it was an aluminum block too.

[trapin]

I'll have to check on the aluminum block. My supervisor here at GM told me it's a cast iron block in the LS7. We'll see how reliable he is.

[parsonsj]

No supervisor is reliable. :cheers:

jp

[trapin]

No supervisor is reliable.
You're right, John....I should have known that before saying anything. :banghead: He was definitely wrong. The block on the LS7 is indeed aluminum.

I just talked to a friend of mine at Powertrain and his guess is that they might scale down the LS7 on some of the high dollar features (along the lines of what JMarsa and Parsonsj said) and build a variation of it on an assembly line for crate engines. Which in turn would drop the price significantly. But he cautioned me that, that was just an educated guess.

Food for thought anyway. :fingersx:

[Nine Ball]

I would guess $13500 for a complete LS7 engine.

New head castings
forged crank
titanium rods
CNC ported heads
expensive valves
new intake manifold design (only for LS7)
billet mains
hand assembled and tested prior to selling

A C5-R block right now costs around $6K bare. C5-R heads are about $4K bare. Thats $10K for a bare block and bare heads. The LS7 will be just as limited in production, since no other vehicles are currently getting one to help share the development costs.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

The main thing I'd like to know is if they will sell the dry sump seperatly and if it'll change over to the GenIIIs. Matt and I were considering doing a dry sump for Fantom, but the plumbing costs are insane.

I'd guess the price of the LS7 crate, minus the dry sump to be $12,250.

[Steve1968LS2]

The main thing I'd like to know is if they will sell the dry sump seperatly and if it'll change over to the GenIIIs. Matt and I were considering doing a dry sump for Fantom, but the plumbing costs are insane.
.

I will let you know on March 17th :smoke:

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I will let you know on March 17th :smoke:

:cool: :) Gather any and all info you can! The internet is depending on you, lol.

[protour_chevelle]

The LS2 is rated at 400 horsepower. Why would 100 more horse cost you an additional $10,000? I understand it is hand-built....but C'MON! And there's no twin-turbo or supercharger added to it that would increase the price that much. So I don't care WHAT kind of hocus-pocus magic is going on underneath that manifold, you cannot justify $10,000 for 100 horsepower. That's just insane. And if it were true....why would you waste your money on it? You could probably get the additional 100 horsepower out of the LS2 by playing around with the heads, cam, and intake and still save yourself about $4000 to $6000.

The LS6 was an $8000 engine and my guess is the LS7 won't be much more.

What do you guys think?

LS2, Stanard style of oiling
LS7, Dry sump
LS2, Cable throttle body(whatever size)
LS7, Electronic throttle body(I'm sure its bigger)
LS2, nothing overly fancy in the heads
LS7, Some snazzy parts going on in there brah! Flow better.

I could go on. Just look at the price of the 572 crate. Who knows what GM will charge.

One thing to also remember... It may be complete from oil pan to injector, but you have no alternator, no a/c, no pulleys, etc. No wiring harness, no computer, O2 sensors, and some other misc parts. Those can easily add up.

I'm gonna say 15-20grand.

-Matt

[protour_chevelle]

I just don't see why you waste your money on it when you could modify the LS2 and get the same numbers for a lot less money? Plus you'll get the aluminum block.

When money is an issue.... Tell me, would you rather run a alum block or an iron block? I know the main reason why I went iron was because if I wanted to bore it out it would be drastically cheaper(wouldn't have to re-sleeve) and be able to hold boost. I know this will start something but stuff like that happens ;) I'm willing to take the extra weight. I'm not made of money.

This is all however my 2 Canadian Cents worth. Roughly 1.61473 cents US.

-Matt

[Ralph LoGrasso]

...LS2, Cable throttle body(whatever size)
LS7, Electronic throttle body(I'm sure its bigger)...
-Matt


Is the LS2 throttle body cable operated? This would make swaps MUCH easier. I was under the impression it was the electronic throttle by wire deal. Have you ever driven a car with an electronic t-body? It's terrible. My Dad's '04 F-150 has it, and I can't stand the pedal. Cable T-body would be nice! LS7 Throttle body is 90mm, I believe.

[Steve1968LS2]

Is the LS2 throttle body cable operated? This would make swaps MUCH easier. I was under the impression it was the electronic throttle by wire deal. Have you ever driven a car with an electronic t-body? It's terrible. My Dad's '04 F-150 has it, and I can't stand the pedal. Cable T-body would be nice! LS7 Throttle body is 90mm, I believe.

No.. the LS2 is fly-by-wire.. :) I am pretty sure the LS2 in the GTO is the same way..

I am sure there is work around for it.. if not then it is not that tough to adapt the electronic throttle into an older car.. BTW.. all vettes have electronic t-bodies.. including Z06's..

It's the future man.. Cables are so 1990's.. ;)

[Poltergeist]

All of the LS based motors are throttle by wire now. Cars and trucks. GM said the advantage was not needing an idle motor in the throttle body and separate controls for traction control & crusie control. The ECU is now able to do all of it by just controlling the blade directly.

[trapin]

fellas.....the April Hot Rod has a fantastic article on the LS2. They did a story on Katech modifying an LS2 and getting 499 horsepower and 462 ft lbs of torque with just basically some bolt on parts. They spent an additonal $3689 to get it there. So basically they acheived close to LS7 numbers for a little more than $9000 (that's including price of crate motor from Scoggin Dickey). FYI.

[protour_chevelle]

Is the LS2 throttle body cable operated? This would make swaps MUCH easier. I was under the impression it was the electronic throttle by wire deal. Have you ever driven a car with an electronic t-body? It's terrible. My Dad's '04 F-150 has it, and I can't stand the pedal. Cable T-body would be nice! LS7 Throttle body is 90mm, I believe.

I guess I was wrong on the cable part...

However, My dads 03 Dodge Ram 1500 had the electronic pedal. The one part I didn't like about it was that it was impossible to have the rpm's stay from 1-2500rpm in neutral. In gear it was easy if you loaded it up a bit.(brake torque type deal) Some guys say they love it and that it feels way more crisp. Others say they dont like it.
The fly by wire also allows for very simple cruise control set-up when swapping the motor into something without cruise.

-matt

[Kenova]

I'll have to check on the aluminum block. My supervisor here at GM told me it's a cast iron block in the LS7. We'll see how reliable he is.
As someone who has spent 25 years working for GM, I feel confident in saying that supervisor's "don't know squat". And I'm being polite.
Ken

[Ralph LoGrasso]

No.. the LS2 is fly-by-wire.. :) I am pretty sure the LS2 in the GTO is the same way..

I am sure there is work around for it.. if not then it is not that tough to adapt the electronic throttle into an older car.. BTW.. all vettes have electronic t-bodies.. including Z06's..

It's the future man.. Cables are so 1990's.. ;)

I like the '90s! :git: Actually, the only reason I don't like electronitc t-bodies is becuase of the way my Dad's truck ('04 F150) drives. The pedal feels like a spring board, and the throttle response is a bit slow. I guess I need to go drive something else with fly-by-wire to get a better feel of it. Maybe GM will let me take out one of the new Z06's to better acquaint myself with the system :D.

[Bill Howell]

I guess I need to go drive something else with fly-by-wire to get a better feel of it. Maybe GM will let me take out one of the new Z06's to better acquaint myself with the system :D.

Let me know when and where that happens. I want to get in that test drive line too. :lol:

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Let me know when and where that happens. I want to get in that test drive line too. :lol:

I'll give GM a call and see what they can do for us! :3gears:

[Bill Howell]

While you are at it Ralph, way not see if they will give us a couple of LS-7s for our projects. I promise to test it real good and probably even recommend it to our friends. :naughty:
I am sure this would convince me to leave the dark ages. :idea:

[BAD6SPD]

ETC (Electronic Throttle Control) response or "feel" is directly a result of how it is calibrated. The driver requests a certain throttle input at the pedal, this is then sent to a calibration table which provides an "area to position curve"....Area is determined by blade angle, and is affected by several other features. Throttle progression curves are usually calibrated to mimick a cable, but under certain condition, you may not always get what you are requesting. Certain application have desired characteristics, a Buick may have a slower progression to appear smoother at launch, whereas a Pontiac may have a more aggressive progression to yield the feel of performance. ETC lets us "control" certain maneuvers which may be detrimental to the engine/trans. Just because you request 25% pedal does not mean you are getting it....but again, it is calibratable...You could actually set the curves to give you 100% blade angle\maximum area at 1% pedal input if you wanted.....not that you would...but the functionality is there. Now whether GM gives you the authority to change the progression in the ECM is another story.