Best way to lower front end on 69 Camaro?

[Ryanater]

I am thinking drop spindles would be the best way to go for lowering the car 2in. But I have no idea which ones are the best as far a performance goes.

Don't some take the place of the guildstrand mod?

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks!

[gmjj13]

lots of good info here:

http://www.pozziracing.com/first_gen_suspension_geome.htm#Geometry%20discussi on

[Ryanater]

Thanks but I already saw that. I am wondering if all spindles are the same? The link said they don't change your supension geometry but I thought some did. Like the afx or ats spindles???

[gmjj13]

not all spindles are the same, they make standard height and tall spindles which raise the ball joint 1.5". i believe the tall spindle is supposed to help with the geometry. i think you could also use a tall ball joint with the standard height spindle and accomplish the same thing.

[David Pozzi]

There are now taller spindles, but the tie rod end hits the tire unless you run a huge wheel. That leaves you with a choice, drop spindle with narrow tire, or stock spindle with Guldstrand mod or tall upper balljoint.

ATS has a nice aluminum spindle that is taller but only 1" drop.
Correction, 7/8" drop.
David

[rockytopper]

There are now taller spindles, but the tie rod end hits the tire unless you run a huge wheel. That leaves you with a choice, drop spindle with narrow tire, or stock spindle with Guldstrand mod or tall upper balljoint.

ATS has a nice aluminum spindle that is taller but only 1" drop.
David


I have found this to be the case on my 65 cutlass. I installed 2 inch drop spindles on it. The kit stated that it requires a wheel with 4.75 inch BS. I have that with my 16 inch iroc z wheels. The problem is they are bottoming out on my inner fenders. I have flatten the fender lip and inner fenders as much as possible. The rear wheels are 5.5 back spacing. They fit and clear the brakes but as stated are very close to the tie rod ends. Can you add spacers to the steering arms to space them away from the spindles and wheels and adjust the tie rods to the new location say .38 to .50 inboard? Or is this a complete NO NO for steering geometry?

[Ryanater]

There are now taller spindles, but the tie rod end hits the tire unless you run a huge wheel. That leaves you with a choice, drop spindle with narrow tire, or stock spindle with Guldstrand mod or tall upper balljoint.

ATS has a nice aluminum spindle that is taller but only 1" drop.
David

Right now we are running 255 tires with a 15"x8" raly wheel. Which this is for my dads car and I believe he has no intention of getting a larger tire.

Will this work with the ATS spindles?

[CarlC]

Not a chance. There are a few 17's that will fit, but 18's are the norm.

You can also use an adjustable spring bucket. Check my website for details.

[Ryanater]

I'm so confused! I have been looking at all of the threads and I know most drop spindles wont let you run a "wide wheel" unless you run a "large diamer wheel"

What exactly is a Wide wheel?? 10in 9in 8in??
What exactly is a large diameter wheel?

And from doing my research the ATS AFX spindles don't have as much clearence problems considering they are a 7/8" drop compaired to 2" drop.

I also have been reading that most 2" drop spindles don't really help performance (except ATS and other tall spindles), and most the people who buy the drop spindles are using them for cars meant for cruising. Well most Camaros I see that aren't pro-touring are running 15in wheels. So how can they be so popular with this group if they won't even fit with the most common wheel?

[gmjj13]

probably because they are using drop springs instead of spindles to lower the car...

[Ryanater]

probably because they are using drop springs instead of spindles to lower the car...

Well if they won't clear stock wheels why isn't their a disclaimer. I have looked at places that sell the spindles and doesn't say anything about having a large diameter wheel.

[Ryanater]

There are now taller spindles, but the tie rod end hits the tire unless you run a huge wheel. That leaves you with a choice, drop spindle with narrow tire, or stock spindle with Guldstrand mod or tall upper balljoint.

ATS has a nice aluminum spindle that is taller but only 1" drop.
David

The two spindles I am looking at are the Heidts 2in drop and the ATS 1in drop.

Both are taller spindles so they improve suspension geometry.

I want to know how small of a tire/wheel combo I have to run to fit with the Heidts spindles.

Also how much better is the clearence on the AFX spindles?

Sorry if this topic has been beaten to death but I just can't make sense of the forums I have searched.

Thanks!

[CarlC]

The ATS spindles will not work in a 15" wheel as stated above.

I highly suggest staying away from a Heidts, or anyones elses, dropped 1st gen spindle. If you do a search in the archives there is a ton of information on why to stay away from these. These types of parts are not popular here because they do not work from a performance and fitment standpoint.

If all you are looking to do is to lower the front end of the car, you can cut your current springs, buy a set of lowering springs like the Hotchkis parts, or go the spring bucket route. The most expensive of these will be the spring bucket and set you back about $250. The least expensive is cutting your current springs.

[TitoJones]

Wow, lots of misinformation running around in here.

Here is the deal-

2in drop spindles are a bad idea, period. They will cause a tie rod to rim clearance issue with most diameter rims (until you get over 19 inch) and if they are over 6 inches wide- well you can damn well guarantee they will hit. This is true on stock and tall 2 inch drop spindles; unless you want a street rod crusier that is for show only, stay clear of all of them.

The AFX spindle, while still a drop spindle does not suffer this issue as bad as a 2 inch drop one will. It will have the same issue when you get beyond 6 inches of backspacing, but it can be fixed with a simple mod to the steering arm; you can run a much wider wheel with an AFX spindle than with any aftermarket 2 inch drop version.

You CAN run a 15 inch wheel on an AFX spindle, but you MUST use the SSBC brake kit, PN A123-21 to make it all work. It will also only fit certain 15x7 wheels, check your wheels with a brake template before ordering.

We drop cars with springs. We have a setup that is just like what CarlC was telling you about- the LM spring adjuster package. It has modified spring adjusters, Hyperco springs, and Bilstien shocks.

Here is a pic of the spring adjuster package, and one pic of the tie rod mod to fix the clearance issue with wheels that have over 6 inches of backspacing.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/rab1hk-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/08/tie20rod20end201aJPG-1.jpg

Hope that helps you make a better informed decision.

Tyler

[Ryanater]

The ATS spindles will not work in a 15" wheel as stated above.

I highly suggest staying away from a Heidts, or anyones elses, dropped 1st gen spindle. If you do a search in the archives there is a ton of information on why to stay away from these. These types of parts are not popular here because they do not work from a performance and fitment standpoint.

If all you are looking to do is to lower the front end of the car, you can cut your current springs, buy a set of lowering springs like the Hotchkis parts, or go the spring bucket route. The most expensive of these will be the spring bucket and set you back about $250. The least expensive is cutting your current springs.

Ok thanks. So pretty much just stay away from drop spindles all together unless you have a large wheel then the ATS is pretty good?

So the best thing to do right now would be to get good lowering srpings/shocks along with doing the guildstrand mod? Or are coilovers a better choice?

The car already has cheap lowering springs on it now (forgot which brand) but they actually raised the car up about an inch from stock.

[Ryanater]

Wow, lots of misinformation running around in here.

Here is the deal-

2in drop spindles are a bad idea, period. They will cause a tie rod to rim clearance issue with most diameter rims (until you get over 19 inch) and if they are over 6 inches wide- well you can damn well guarantee they will hit. This is true on stock and tall 2 inch drop spindles; unless you want a street rod crusier that is for show only, stay clear of all of them.

The AFX spindle, while still a drop spindle does not suffer this issue as bad as a 2 inch drop one will. It will have the same issue when you get beyond 6 inches of backspacing, but it can be fixed with a simple mod to the steering arm; you can run a much wider wheel with an AFX spindle than with any aftermarket 2 inch drop version.

You CAN run a 15 inch wheel on an AFX spindle, but you MUST use the SSBC brake kit, PN A123-21 to make it all work. It will also only fit certain 15x7 wheels, check your wheels with a brake template before ordering.

We drop cars with springs. We have a setup that is just like what CarlC was telling you about- the LM spring adjuster package. It has modified spring adjusters, Hyperco springs, and Bilstien shocks.

Here is a pic of the spring adjuster package, and one pic of the tie rod mod to fix the clearance issue with wheels that have over 6 inches of backspacing.

Hope that helps you make a better informed decision.

Tyler

Thanks! That was EXACTLY what i was looking for.

I think i'm going to go with the shock/spring package for now.

Can anyone give me their opinion what the best shock/spring package is?

[dhutton]

Thanks! That was EXACTLY what i was looking for.

I think i'm going to go with the shock/spring package for now.

Can anyone give me their opinion what the best shock/spring package is?

I don't think you can go wrong ordering from Tyler/ATS.

Don

[CarlC]

Tyler,

Will your taller spindle fit in a 15", or just the short version?

[TitoJones]

Carl-

Both fit fine, but the brakes must be from SSBC to work.

Tyler

[ho428]

There are now taller spindles, but the tie rod end hits the tire unless you run a huge wheel. That leaves you with a choice, drop spindle with narrow tire, or stock spindle with Guldstrand mod or tall upper balljoint.

ATS has a nice aluminum spindle that is taller but only 1" drop.
Correction, 7/8" drop.
David



Couldn't you use, say, a 1/2" taller lower ball joint to raise the spindle? Effectively dropping the front 1/2" (about what I want)
I went with a 4" offset rim to get the tie rod off the tire in the corners, it was rubbing during hard cornering.
Rather than cutting springs I think I could go 1/2" without hitting anything and keep my spring rate.

From what I understand the GS mod will effect the Camber arc but not lower the car any?

David,
Mind if I PM you about some set up advise?

[TitoJones]

Couldn't you use, say, a 1/2" taller lower ball joint to raise the spindle? Effectively dropping the front 1/2" (about what I want)
I went with a 4" offset rim to get the tie rod off the tire in the corners, it was rubbing during hard cornering.
Rather than cutting springs I think I could go 1/2" without hitting anything and keep my spring rate.

From what I understand the GS mod will effect the Camber arc but not lower the car any?

David,
Mind if I PM you about some set up advise?

It will royally screw up the bumpsteer if you add a tall lower ball joint. You can do it on an A body, but not the F/X body chassis.

Tyler

[novanutcase]

Ryanater,

No ones really asked this question so I will. How will you be driving the car? DD? RR? A/X? Drag?

If you're DDing it, having a taller spindle won't make all that much difference since you won't really be able to take advantage of the camber gain, among other things, that you will get from taller spindles or taller ball joints for that matter. A taller spindle will probably give you better scrub radius but, again, you won't be going fast enough or turning hard enough for it to make all that much difference.

If you just want it handle better than stock but won't be pushing it hard around a course or an A/X than I would just cut the springs you have and drop it to the desired height that you are looking for. Maybe do the Guldstrand mod and a bumpsteer kit?

I'm no suspension guru in any way shape or form and I/we should defer to Tyler and the other suspension pro's on this but I've noticed that a lot of times people worry about certain suspension issues that won't be due to the driving conditions that they will be driving in for the majority of the time.

John

[Ryanater]

Ryanater,

No ones really asked this question so I will. How will you be driving the car? DD? RR? A/X? Drag?

If you're DDing it, having a taller spindle won't make all that much difference since you won't really be able to take advantage of the camber gain, among other things, that you will get from taller spindles or taller ball joints for that matter. A taller spindle will probably give you better scrub radius but, again, you won't be going fast enough or turning hard enough for it to make all that much difference.

If you just want it handle better than stock but won't be pushing it hard around a course or an A/X than I would just cut the springs you have and drop it to the desired height that you are looking for. Maybe do the Guldstrand mod and a bumpsteer kit?

I'm no suspension guru in any way shape or form and I/we should defer to Tyler and the other suspension pro's on this but I've noticed that a lot of times people worry about certain suspension issues that won't be due to the driving conditions that they will be driving in for the majority of the time.

John

The car is mostly a weekend cruiser but I take it to the drag strip all the time. i still plan on using it for a crusier but i want to be able to autocross it. Who knows, maybe it will even see a track day or two in the distant future.

[novanutcase]

The car is mostly a weekend cruiser but I take it to the drag strip all the time. i still plan on using it for a crusier but i want to be able to autocross it. Who knows, maybe it will even see a track day or two in the distant future.

If you take it to the drag strip all the time then I would set it up for that since that is where the car will see the majority of hard driving but if you do that you won't really be able to set it up for auto/x and get the maximum performance you could if you set it up for that type of driving. Drag and AX/RR employ different types of suspension setups to optimize either one.

John

[Ryanater]

If you take it to the drag strip all the time then I would set it up for that since that is where the car will see the majority of hard driving but if you do that you won't really be able to set it up for auto/x and get the maximum performance you could if you set it up for that type of driving. Drag and AX/RR employ different types of suspension setups to optimize either one.

John

I know but i am pretty much done with the dragstrip. I broke into the 11's so now im satisfied.

I'm really concerned about handling.

[novanutcase]

I know but i am pretty much done with the dragstrip. I broke into the 11's so now im satisfied.

I'm really concerned about handling.

OK....then first things first! What sort of budget do you have to get you to your goals? There are many ways to go about getting great handling. Figure out what you can afford and then go from there. You may want to talk to Tyler at ATS or any one of the many suspension studs on the board. If you let them know how much you can spend they can probably give you the most bang for your buck. Check out David Pozzi's site too. He has a lot of great info especially for your car.

John

[Buffalobillpatrick]

TitoJones when you said:

"They will cause a tie rod to rim clearance issue with most diameter rims (until you get over 19 inch) and if they are over 6 inches wide- well you can damn well guarantee they will hit."

did you mean over 6" backspacing?

BBP

[TitoJones]

TitoJones when you said:

"They will cause a tie rod to rim clearance issue with most diameter rims (until you get over 19 inch) and if they are over 6 inches wide- well you can damn well guarantee they will hit."

did you mean over 6" backspacing?

BBP

Didn't see this previously. No, what I meant was on a 2 inch drop spindle, a 6 inch wide rim will hit the tie rod ends.


In terms of brand, chevy drop spindles (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/) would be the best choice. Check them out for the size and quality performance you're looking for.

Wow. Way to spam the board and not read a damn thing in the only thread you replied to. Horrible recommendation.

Tyler