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BonzoHansen
11-25-2008, 09:42 AM
Article in today’s WSJ on declining car values

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122757588574055233.html?mod=todays_us_personal_j ournal

WSJ NOVEMBER 25, 2008 D1
A Rough Ride in Collectible Cars
By JONATHAN WELSH

For some, the first sign of trouble was a Daytona Spyder.

When one of these rare early-1970s Ferrari sports cars turns up at an auction, high-end collectors typically bid aggressively, even fiercely, to acquire it. But at a recent sale in California, one Spyder failed to fetch the minimum bid.

In recent years, the vintage car market has soared, led by the priciest European models. But now, as the economy worsens to the point where even the wealthiest collectors feel pinched, demand for million-dollar sports cars is starting to skid.

Dealers, auction-company executives and others in the business acknowledge the downturn but say that, until recently, it has mainly affected the low end of the market: cars costing up to about $100,000, many of them American models. And while some insist that Ferraris, Mercedes-Benzes and Alfa Romeos are still holding their value, an increasing number of sellers are looking to unload their cars in a hurry to raise cash after losing their jobs, or a large chunk of their wealth in the stock-market plunge, say car auctioneers and others.

Recently, two of Michael Sheehan's clients came to him looking to sell their Ferraris in a hurry -- an unusual request. "They needed cash now," says Mr. Sheehan, a longtime Ferrari broker in Newport Beach, Calif. The cars, a $110,000 1982 Berlinetta Boxer and a $950,000 1972 Daytona Spyder, wound up selling for about 25% less than they would have sold for just a few months ago.

Both sellers themselves were in hammered industries: One was a home builder from Chicago, and the other a former Lehman Bros. executive from New York.

Mr. Sheehan says he and others saw it as a bad omen when the Daytona Spyder failed to sell during an annual weekend of car shows, auctions and racing events on California's Monterey Peninsula in August. The event attracts some of the most sought-after cars and well-to-do collectors, and sales this year included several record prices.

Surprisingly, though, there were four Daytona Spyders -- which are sleek, shapely two-seat convertibles -- up for sale this year by three auction companies. That's considered too many for a car of which only about 120 were made. While one sold for about $1.5 million, two others sold for between $1 million and $1.1 million. The fourth failed to sell because bids fell short of the reserve price.

"Monterey was the swan song," Mr. Sheehan says. "Since then the Ferrari market has fallen 20% to 30%."

There were other signs of trouble at the summer auto auctions. Mike Regalia was at an auction in Pebble Beach, Calif., in August when bidding began for a Porsche that once belonged to actor Steve McQueen. The auction house's estimate was $125,000 to $175,000, though Mr. Regalia, a Sun Valley, Calif., collector who also restores vintage cars, says he thought it would fetch at least $200,000. After all, collectors have paid outlandish sums recently for the late actor's property.

Bidding on the Porsche slowed just above $100,000.

"I realized that the car wasn't going to get anywhere near the number I expected," he says. So he wound up bidding $125,000 and taking the car home. "I hadn't planned on bidding, but I kept thinking, 'These people must be asleep,' " says Mr. Regalia.

Or maybe they just ran out of money. Amid the broad economic deterioration of recent months, spending on extravagances like antique cars has slowed. In many cases, people can no longer afford even to keep their collections, says David Gooding, president of Gooding & Co., a Los Angeles car auction house.

In the past year, many collectors who used home-equity loans or other credit to buy the vintage convertible or muscle car of their dreams have had to sell as the housing and credit markets have declined. The same factors have kept new collectors from entering the market. As a result, many staple collector cars like 1957 Chevrolets, 1940 Fords and 1960s Pontiac GTOs are selling for half what they commanded two or three years ago.

According to industry tracker CNW Research, long-established classic cars are also suffering. The price of a 1934 Packard Touring is down 17% on average, compared with two years ago. The 1957 Ford Thunderbird is down 15%, and the 1940 Ford DeLuxe Coupe is down 40%.

Market watchers are bracing themselves for the next big round of high-end auto auctions in Scottsdale, Ariz., in January -- long a collective barometer of the market's condition. Some fear that these auctions may disappoint, much like this month's New York contemporary-art sales by the Sotheby's and Christie's auction houses. The Sotheby's sale totaled $125 million, well below the low estimate. The Christie's sale brought in $113.6 million, or about half the low estimate. At both auctions, about a third of the lots failed to sell.

For some collectors, the downturn could be a good time to amass a long-coveted vehicle or two -- not just because prices are often lower, but because cars that weren't for sale before are suddenly available. John McCue of Half Moon Bay, Calif., bought a 1958 Mercury Park Lane last summer for $39,000. The 61-year-old retired software executive says it probably cost him about 5% less than the car's value a year earlier. But since he has pursued the car for years, he knows the former owner wouldn't have sold it then.

"There are those cars that you think will never be for sale, the ones the owners will take to their graves," he says. "Well, now a lot of those cars are changing hands."

While many in the collecting business say there will always be enough wealthy people who want vintage cars, others fear the market could be headed for a repeat of its last crash in 1989, when speculators who had no particular interest in vintage cars drove a steep, if fleeting, run-up in prices. Today, more of the buyers are car lovers, but speculation underpins their motives as well.

"The love of cars never outweighs the love of money," Mr. Gooding says.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/PJAN714_COLLEC_NS_20081124221630-1.gif

Steve1968LS2
11-25-2008, 09:54 AM
Prices go up.. prices go down.. this is true of any commodity wether it be houses, cars or bricks of gold.

Since I'm in this as a hobby I don't give it much thought. Those that treat it as a business most likely feel differently.

Less cash in the system will always equate to less buyers with is less demand and the value of good, especially non-necessities like classic cars, will go down.

Hell, the same deal is happening in the fine-art arena.

On the up-side. I just paid 1.99 a gallon for gas... in California!

James OLC
11-25-2008, 11:39 AM
I think that it also has to be kept in perspective. Accoring to the little summary a '69 Camaro is down 7 to 10% and a Cobra kit car is down 16%. I would say that 99% of the people that I know with "traditional" (stock, etc.) investments would be relieved if that is all the change they have seen...

Payton King
11-25-2008, 12:44 PM
Since one Daytona did not reach reserve the market is gone. They did not say what the reserve was and if the car was worth it. Obviously not as the other 3 sold.

Yep, the market is down but all values are in flux. I agree, loss of 10% as apposed to 50%.

Is a Hemi Cuda really worth $1 million?

Fesler built
11-25-2008, 01:10 PM
The cars that we are building right now are holding OK but stock stuff is down and that is something that goes back and forth every few years. They will come back as they always do. I would think that the cars are still a better place to put cash over the stock market because if something goes BR you are out everything.

We do the Barrett Jackson stuff every year and prices are always all over the place and agreed I dont think a cuda was ever worth 1 millon dollars but as they say a car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

BA.
11-25-2008, 01:18 PM
Yeah, if I could sell a car to invest in the market right now, I'd probably do it too! Those with cash to buy now can get rare gains in the next few years if they play their cards right.

wicked68
11-25-2008, 01:54 PM
I had a guy tell me I was putting too much in my car and it would not be a good investment. I said - its not an investment - its my baby - my art project - and if someone wants to pay me enough for me to sell it to them - great - if not I really dont care - I am building it like I want it and I will be happy having my funeral cart pulled with it if I keep it that long (hopefully a long time :D )

I told him not to buy a classic car for an investment - do it because you love them. then if you make money on them its just icing.

oestek
11-25-2008, 02:25 PM
There is hope... maybe someday I'll be able to afford some of these cars that have been in the stratosphere!

Flash68
11-25-2008, 02:50 PM
Expect car prices to continue to go lower as there is less money for discretionary spending on toys like this.

The car market is not a liquid one like stocks. It is more like real estate which has a more gradual decline and takes longer for transactions to occur.

Will be a great time in the coming years to pick up a custom car or collector.

bret
11-25-2008, 03:03 PM
This has been very hotly discussed on the Boss 429 forum lately. The consensus is that if you really like the car then it doesn't matter what someone else thinks it's worth...you won't sell it anyhow. I have bought several musclecars in the last few years for product development...and because I liked them. They aren't worth now what I paid for them then. But I don't really care because...I like driving them. If I wanted or needed to sel them...I would be disappointed.
The upside...there are some NICE cars available now for amounts less than a couple of years ago. However...the REALLY nice stuff...likely won't change hands until prices recover, if ever, because a smart owner will wait out the downturn, or simply likes the car enough not to sell it.
$.02

Vegas69
11-25-2008, 03:12 PM
Pretty simple concept....prices will get to a point where those with money can no longer corral themselves. Then things will improve. People want to see that everyone else is doing it. There are still plenty of cash cows out there I am here to tell you. I have never had so many cash buyers calling me in my Real Estate career. They get in while everyone else thinks the world is ending.

Jim Nilsen
11-25-2008, 03:49 PM
Another upside to all of this is that the cost of a brand new car is more than the cost of the collector cars in the same category whithin reason.

The cost of a new ZR1 is still very high and they seem to be selling unless someone knows something different. Other high dollar exotics are still way up there too.

Even the cost of just regular nice everyday cars exceeds the price of a collector car.

Flash68
11-25-2008, 07:12 PM
Pretty simple concept....prices will get to a point where those with money can no longer corral themselves. Then things will improve. People want to see that everyone else is doing it. There are still plenty of cash cows out there I am here to tell you. I have never had so many cash buyers calling me in my Real Estate career. They get in while everyone else thinks the world is ending.

You're a realtor? Do you think Vegas has hit a bottom?

ProdigyCustoms
11-25-2008, 08:51 PM
Being in this business so many years, I have rode this roller coaster a couple times. I was at Barret Jackson in 1990 at the previous "peak" of the first muscle car craze with 2 truck loads of badd ass Chevy muscle cars. (4) ls6 Chevelles, (2) COPO Camaros, a 69 Yenko that set a record at $97K! 2 1963 factory lightweight Z11s . A couple 65 396 / 425HP roadster Vettes. We were in it deep! We also got stuck with 40 cars in inventory that went down 30%. Found creative ways to get out of them including raffling a bunch of them. Then it all came back and then some 5 / 6 years ago, then it went completely nuts (and out of control) a couple years ago. To be honest, we needed a little correction, in both the houseing and car market. Could our properties really triple in 10 years? We bought the house we are in 11 years ago, it appraised 2 years ago for 3 1/2 times what I paid 11 years ago! If that continued, the house would triple again in 10 more years! That aint right. We are in a solid area and now my house still sells for 3 times what I paid for it. To be honest that is still to much appreciation!
On the car side, could a 69 Z28 of which 20,000 were made, could it really be worth $60K - $70K when at the peak in 1990 I sold the nicest one you ever seen for $22K and that was close to a record! We set a record with a Yenko for $97K at that 1990 Barret Jackson. The same car sold for $450K a couple years ago, Come on! It's a freakin Camaro for christ sake! Its not like it was a race car with a huge history, just one of a couple hundred Yenkos built.

Yes the market has soften and has corrected, but I have friends in the business and they still buy and sell cars, just at more realistic prices.
things got over heated, period.

Flash68
11-25-2008, 09:17 PM
That's a big 10-4, Frank!

Most of our cars and even collector cars fall into the discretionary spending category. And this nation is getting poorer by the day and the buyers (for everything) are drying up = driving prices down down down.

What Frank said - most assets in this country are due for a correction.

mayhem148
11-26-2008, 12:57 AM
since im working nights and there is nothing happening right now at work i figured i would throw my 2 cents in.

i could never be more excited to see the car market go down. (nothing personal to the people in it for money.) with the prices goin down that gives the average hotrodder more of a chance to purchase a car that he really wants, and not have to go with what he can afford. i grew around mopars. i like mopar because they sold cars that had not for street legal use on the fender well. race ready factory built cars. i did not like mopar because they were rare. because of the price to build one i have slowly become more interested in ford and chevy.
i also think you will be seeing more fabrication going on. there is entirely to much bolt on stuff right now. you hardly see anybody making something work. (for instance taking a turbo off your neighbors tractor and sticking it under the hood of your big block camaro). i hope to see the imagination of people used on hotrods in the future more than there credit card.

Vegas69
11-26-2008, 07:51 AM
You're a realtor? Do you think Vegas has hit a bottom?
That's a loaded question. In some areas and price points...absolutely. We are back to almost 04/05 sales level. (Within 250 units) We are basically keeping pace with the new REO's coming on the market.

bigvegan
11-26-2008, 08:17 AM
I'm not a realtor, but I'm guessing we won't hit bottom until all the bogus ARMs work their way through the system.

Check out this chart. I think this one tells more about where real estate's headed than just about anything else.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/IMFresets-1.jp
So I'm guessing we'll have a lull for a part of the coming year, then in 2010-2011 the nicer neighborhoods will get hit by the Option / Alt-A resets.

If you can buy something and rent it at a profit, or it's something you love and you can comfortably afford, then it's always a good time to buy, but if you're hoping to profit from price appreciation, you might want to keep your cash in the bank (a non-failed one) for the time being.

I think cars are going to follow suit. We're going to see some ridiculous deals in the car market over the next few years.

Hopefully I'll be able to remain employed long enough to take advantage of them.

jaybee
11-26-2008, 09:16 AM
Amen to Frank and to Mayhem, you both read my mind. The elephant in the room regarding the economy generally is that this won't be a quick fix. All that excess leverage, from consumers to producers to the stock market, has to be reduced to a manageable level before spending increases very much. We're going to reach a level of stability in the economy and hold there for maybe a couple of years before growth really starts again. Hopefully I'm wrong because my line of work depends on broad based strength in the economy to do really well, but that's how it looks.

Flash68
11-26-2008, 09:59 AM
That's a loaded question. In some areas and price points...absolutely. We are back to almost 04/05 sales level. (Within 250 units) We are basically keeping pace with the new REO's coming on the market.

Ha. Yes it is quite loaded isn't it.

My advice to anyone is don't be the guy catching the knife. It's a lot better to buy after you really know you've hit bottom than to think you are at the bottom when the decline is still happening.

In most areas the increased sales volume is fooling people because it is 40-50% distressed.

Flash68
11-26-2008, 10:01 AM
I'm not a realtor, but I'm guessing we won't hit bottom until all the bogus ARMs work their way through the system.

Check out this chart. I think this one tells more about where real estate's headed than just about anything else.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/IMFresets-1.jp
So I'm guessing we'll have a lull for a part of the coming year, then in 2010-2011 the nicer neighborhoods will get hit by the Option / Alt-A resets.

If you can buy something and rent it at a profit, or it's something you love and you can comfortably afford, then it's always a good time to buy, but if you're hoping to profit from price appreciation, you might want to keep your cash in the bank (a non-failed one) for the time being.

I think cars are going to follow suit. We're going to see some ridiculous deals in the car market over the next few years.

Hopefully I'll be able to remain employed long enough to take advantage of them.

I agree wholeheartedly. The nicer neighborhoods in LA and SF are already being affected whereas people said they would hold up. There is much more pain to be felt in most areas.

Sorry for the sideways topic.

Vegas69
11-26-2008, 10:21 AM
There are so many variables that exist. Every market, neighborhood, and price point is different to some degree. All affected without a doubt. I'll give a couple examples here in the Las Vegas valley.

Take my neighborhood for example:
All one story, 3 car garage, location location location(one mile South of the most popular casino and hot spot in Henderson), 110 homes, oversize lots(8500 average), 80% retirees that don't want to live in the old folks community. Average age of the homes is 10 years. The majority are in good financial positions and equity positions due to the demographics and age of the structures.

SW: Neighborhood with a average age of 2006, average lot size of about half, not much convenience. Demographics are: mostly 1st time buyers on arms. Purchases were made at the height of the market.

Which will recover faster and have the most depreciation? We still have quality private sales in my community along with a few bank deals. But we have very recent good private sale comps.The SW neighborhood is all bank foreclosures because the homeowners are upside down by 40-50%. That is their market.

It's far from over but some neighborhoods are safe bets. To many folks still want to move here. I have at least 10 quality couples that are moving here once their home sells. I have people that are moving back. Why? Because it makes sense again from a retirement aspect and cost of living. Oh ya...the weather isn't bad either.

Flash68
11-26-2008, 10:25 AM
I'm sure you know your market well Todd.

I just wish I had a 3 car garage! :yum:

Vegas69
11-26-2008, 10:27 AM
And RV Parking:1st: I am looking to take advantage or the market as well. We are starting to see custom built homes on .5 to 1 acre that are selling for not much more than the land values in the height of the market. Construction costs have not come down. $150 a square foot to build a decent custom. I looked at a custom in the nicest section of Henderson last weekend. 3000 sqft, 1 acre, pool, fully landscaped for $500,000. The land sold for $450,000. Construction cost was close to $450,000. Talk about a niche market. Why would you build? You will lose your aise. New construction is almost obsolete here now.

Don't get me wrong...there are areas and product I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. I have seen prices all the way back to 1988. Location, Location, Location. Everybody just forgot for a little while when the gravy train was pulling through town. LOL