GM video to illustrate current crisis

[oestek]

http://www.v8tvshow.com/forum/index.php/topic,1408.0.html

[Vegas69]

Hate to say it....but maybe one of the three needs to go.

[trapin]

A lot of people still just don't get it. They're too busy focusing their hatred towards the executives and management in general and not realizing that there's a bigger picture here. YES....it sucks that The Big Three need bailout money....YES the people running this company could have been more proactive and had more foresight. YES they deserve to be punished or fired or whaterver......But this is not about saving the a$$es of the super wealthy executives who steered The Big Three into an iceberg....it's about saving the jobs and livelyhoods of the "little people" who are directly effected by their mismanagement. Don't sacrifice us just to give a hand slap to a bunch of rich guys who wouldn't care anyway.

Forget about Wagoner and the two other dolts running the show. This is about "us", the people behind the scenes. We didn't do anything wrong.

By the way; http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081114/AUTO01/811140430/1148

[Young Gun]

im not driving a toyota any time soon...i want my gm's to keep rolling off the line...

[Vegas69]

I don't want to see one American lose a job....but clearly there is not enough business for three large American auto manufacturers since they are all going broke and have been for years.

[ITLBTU]

I didn't watch the video... yet.. but when the unions demand wages that can not be paid by the company, something is going to happen. I don't know about anyone else in the private sector, but I don't come anywhere near the pension/wages/sick time all guaranteed regardless of job performance. We can't compete globally when the rest of the world/country doesn't pay it's employees that well. Our gov employees get paid the same way and look at our taxes we have to continue to pay more and more...

[Damn True]

Make no mistake. This is NOT simply a bailout of GM, FoMoCo and Cerberus/ChryCo. This is a bailout of the state of Michigan, a bailout of the abject failure that is Jennifer Granholm (recently appointed to who's staff?) and a bailout of the coffers of the UAW.

We are being asked to say, "Ok automaker executives, unions and political figures, we know you screwed this up by the numbers. But here is a big freakin pile of money to allow you to continue to screw up for a few more years."

It stinks like a week-old cod. But it's probably necessary.

IMO we ought not do this unless there is some serious reform mandated in all the responsible parties. But we all know that won't happen.

[oestek]

The problem reaches deep... not just the big 3, but their suppliers, THEIR suppliers, the local businesses, shipping, transport, the financial institutions of the suppliers, the people providing insurance and health care... hell, even the teachers and barbers and local businesses in MI and wherever the suppliers are will take a hit. It's huge.

[maldo]

yeah this is a hell of a problem and i would hate for them to fall but what makes me angry about this whole thing is how come they did not see this coming ..... (i mean they have had to see this coming and did nothing to change it ..... it seems like they are pinning there entire future on a bail out .... from the gov....

[ITLBTU]

I'm not totally against the bail out...but we need to get the union control out and pay reasonable wages and benefits and pensions. I don't care how good the product is, if the prices are too high people aren't going to buy it if there is a comparable product that cost a lot less. I'm a die hard Chevy guy. I have never purchased a foreign car. I hope it will stay that way. You can't totally blame the big three for prodicing big cars and trucks... they were making what the consumers wanted until the fuel costs went through the roof. We can blame our political leaders for that.

[maldo]

I'm not totally against the bail out...but we need to get the union control out and pay reasonable wages and benefits and pensions. I don't care how good the product is, if the prices are too high people aren't going to buy it if there is a comparable product that cost a lot less. I'm a die hard Chevy guy. I have never purchased a foreign car. I hope it will stay that way. You can't totally blame the big three for prodicing big cars and trucks... they were making what the consumers wanted until the fuel costs went through the roof. We can blame our political leaders for that.


but what is reasonable wages for skilled workers?? i mean look at the teacher system they pay like sh@t and you dont see many running for a job like that which requires allot of school for low pay ... thats y you see shortage of good qualifited teaches .....
people cant make it on the wages they are getting know.. to support a famliy etc.

[maldo]

I'm not totally against the bail out...but we need to get the union control out and pay reasonable wages and benefits and pensions. I don't care how good the product is, if the prices are too high people aren't going to buy it if there is a comparable product that cost a lot less. I'm a die hard Chevy guy. I have never purchased a foreign car. I hope it will stay that way. You can't totally blame the big three for prodicing big cars and trucks... they were making what the consumers wanted until the fuel costs went through the roof. We can blame our political leaders for that.

but what is reasonable wages for skilled workers?? I mean take a look at the teacher system they pay like sh@t and you don't see many running for a job like that which requires allot of school for low pay ... thats y you see shortage of good qualifited teaches .....
people cant make it on the wages they are getting know.. to support a family etc.

[oestek]

I am agrivated that the media keeps stating the GM / Ford / Chrysler products are not competitive... they still make trucks & suvs, but they all have decent car lines that have many features and get decent gas mileage with seemingly good quality. They may have not been marketed well, but the media slamming them hasn't helped. The senator (I believe) calling the GM product line Dinosaurs has not driven a current Malibu, Impala, Cobalt, LaCrosse, Lucerne, G8, G6, or many others. They are nice cars.

[Kenova]

...but we need to get the union control out and pay reasonable wages and benefits and pensions.

OK, let's see if I can throw a little gasoline on this.
Keep in mind that these are all "ballpark" figures, but I'm sure I'll be erring on the high side.

80 man hours total to build a full size truck.
$50.00 an hour (includes wages, holidays, health car benefits, and pension)

80 X 50 = 4000.

That's four thousand dollars worth of labour costs for a truck that will sell for anywhere between $45,000 and $60,000.

If you spent $60,000 on home renovations, how much of it would go to labour?

To cast the net a little further, perhaps some of the business owners on the forum could give us some idea as to the ratio of labour cost vs sales value.

Ken

[ITLBTU]

I wish I knew where I read it... but I think the cost per hour is $75.00 per hour, if you include pension, benefits, and wages. I think the welders and fab guys we have working for us requires a little more skill than a guy on an assembly line doing the same thing for 8 hrs a day,and they don't make that much. I don't know what an average UAW worker get's paid, but I'll bet it's a very good wage. Also, I know a lot of school teachers in Ca that make $70,000.00 + for 10 months work. I could live off that....

[maldo]

I wish I knew where I read it... but I think the cost per hour is $75.00 per hour, if you include pension, benefits, and wages. I think the welders and fab guys we have working for us requires a little more skill than a guy on an assembly line doing the same thing for 8 hrs a day,and they don't make that much. I don't know what an average UAW worker get's paid, but I'll bet it's a very good wage. Also, I know a lot of school teachers in Ca that make $70,000.00 + for 10 months work. I could live off that....


70 k is good wage but if you look at the cost to live in ca

[Vegas69]

My girl pulls down 60k a year as a teacher in Nevada. Of course she has a masters degree plus 32 credits. She also teaches kids to read and instructs other teachers after school. She's a bargain.

[maldo]

My girl pulls down 60k a year as a teacher in Nevada. Of course she has a masters degree plus 32 credits. She also teaches kids to read and instructs other teachers after school. She's a bargain.


so she makes 60 k that incudes all the extra stuff you stated right?

[Vegas69]

They are paid on experience(10 years) plus their own education. Only level higher is PHD. It's $1000 more per year. Plus she does get paid for the extra classes.

[Steve1968LS2]

Instead of the word "bail out" they should sell it like what we did for Chrysler back in the day.

The taxpayer actually made money on that deal.

[ITLBTU]

70 k is good wage but if you look at the cost to live in ca

I do live in Ca..... That works out to $84 k if it were based on a 12 month wage... but I'm way off topic now...

I found this article on UAW wages...

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f137887/779

[Tom Welch]

If a man cant live comfortably on 60.00 per hour worked (assuming 40 hrs) he needs to start with 1+1=2. For crying out loud 2400.00 per week is a damn good salary for just about anybody. All the UAW guys and GM mamagement are responsible for this fiasco. I dont believe that they have earned our tax dollars for any bailout. Earn it and I will be first in line to say OK.

[Boyd]

Instead of the word "bail out" they should sell it like what we did for Chrysler back in the day.

The taxpayer actually made money on that deal.

Exactly. They should at least buy stock to prop up the value of the auto companies like they announced they will be doing for the financial sector.

The best bang for everyone's buck would be for the U.S. Gov't to buy Chrysler from Cerberus (what did Cerberus pay for it, like $5B?) and then shut it down and sell off all of it's physical assets (maybe keep some plants/technology for military use) - then use the proceeds from the liquidation to buy stock in Ford and GM. Seems easy to me.

[Kenova]

Instead of the word "bail out" they should sell it like what we did for Chrysler back in the day.

The taxpayer actually made money on that deal.
Finally, some sanity.
GM is not asking for a handout, they are asking for loans and/or loan guarantees just as Chrysler did in the '80s. And why do they need help to borrow money? Because the credit market has dried up because someone fell asleep while someone else wrote up billions of dollars in bad loans.

Ken

[Chad-1stGen]

I blame the unions, not a few top executives who happen to be in power now. Any bailout that doesn't rework the unions or just break their contracts is only prolonging the inevitable.

[Sparky67]

I didn't watch the video...

I think you should watch the video! Really, I don't people understand on how many jobs will be lost and how it will affect our economy.


Our gov employees get paid the same way and look at our taxes we have to continue to pay more and more...

Sorry!! Again you are WRONG, we do not get any bonuses at the end of the year and our cost of living increase amounts to about 2k a year before taxes. Government employees salaries are well below private industry salaries!!

Jeff

http://www.kodakgallery.com/67rscamaro

[trapin]

Finally, some sanity.
GM is not asking for a handout, they are asking for loans and/or loan guarantees just as Chrysler did in the '80s. And why do they need help to borrow money? Because the credit market has dried up because someone fell asleep while someone else wrote up billions of dollars in bad loans.

Ken
Thank you. We are only in this mess because of what happened to the gas prices and the housing sector with billions in bad loans. Someone else on here asked, "How didn't The Big Three see this coming?" Uhh....the gas price shooting to $4 a gallon and the financial industry plummeting all happened within the span of 2 years.

HOW THE HELL WERE WE SUPPOSED TO GAME PLAN FOR THAT??!!!

Nobody saw that coming. NOBODY. Not even Toyota who in case you missed it are also taking it in the a$$ right now.

[harshman]

I see this mess on union shoulders only. Not so much for the guys currently working but for all the retirees that collect a pension and full medical benefits that are not producing anything. You can’t run a business and pay out insane money for no production. Toyota and the others that are building here in the US are making a profit but that is because their largest, most expensive overhead costs – LABOR – are under control.

The government is not a bank – heck, it can hardly run the post office correctly and they are even in the red. Bail the big 3 out and next it will be the airline industry then the health insurance industry… I am a builder – where is my check for work not performed?

[BMF Machine]

When the airlines got in trouble, the pilots took a 50 percent paycut. It has helped so far. I have many friends and family making OVER 30.00 dollars per hour at the Ford plants here in Louisville. I am sure they could all still live very well on 20.00 per hour. I do, and I have talent to boot? JMO
I am sure the UAW won't allow that; and that is why they will wind up in much deeper poo than they are in now.IMO
I think the bailout would allow the big Three to keep on doing what they are doing. Is that good? Or bad?

[fairlane347]

I work for a tiered supplier in Milwaukee and see the trickle down of this being bad for us too. I hope we have jobs in 6 months. I don't see how families can keep up with the cost of living, I don't get a bonus but executives still get dividends or some kind of pay out. how the he!! is that good business? I should have gone to executive school, LOL:rolleyes: The working man still getting screwed!

[trapin]

I'm part of a salaried union at GM and to be honest....I think they steal $80 of my salary a month. Honestly, I don't see what I get for it. Cost-of-living? The tradeoff is we get a 1% raise (when they're giving raises) while the non-union workers get a lot more so the whole cost-of-living thing cancels out. Also last year when we went on strike for two days to show our support for the blue collar's in 160...one of our members crossed the picket line and came into work those two days. The membership voted to throw him out and International vetoed it and gave him a slap on the hand.

So what the hell am I paying $80 a month for? So some crackerjack in a suit can have a job running a union that tells me what to do?

To hell with them. They can stuff their solidarity up their f*ckin a$$ for all I care.

[Tony_SS]

I don't see how the Unions are fully to blame. Yes they are part of the problem, but they are not THE problem. It's not their fault there's a housing crisis, that fuel shot up to $4/gal and economy went in reverse. This storm sent everyone into shell shock that effected the big 3. The Unions did not cause it. Are they part of the solution? Unlikely and should be delt with accordingly, but the root of the problem has yet to be delt with. In fact it could make things worse.

700 billion, for starters, is set to go to a corrupt financial systems that created this mess. That is the problem. Not to anyone surprise the bailout that was rammed through Congress has yet to bail-out our economy. It's no wonder Congress is blaming the Treasury of bait and switch tactics and holding sessions to get some answers.

GM asked for a measly 3.5% of the 700 billion, and I think it should be granted. Especially to someone who produces actual products vs the banks production of imaginary credit and devalued dollars.

[ITLBTU]

I think the oil industry should come to the aid of the auto industry, after the union gets broke. I used to be in a machinist union years ago. I had to join because the shop that hired me was union. The shop has been closed for some time now. The union was a major reason for the dealership going out of business. Unions were needed 60 years ago, but not now. They are corupt at the leadership and are causing a lot of businesses to go out of business. Look at what they want now... open elections, so they can once again intimidate their members...

[Jims68]

I watched the video and believe that some people do not understand what will happen if the auto makers go under. My dad retired from gm at the age of 48. He is now 60. His only income is his pension. The union is the blame for that. For years they drove up the wages and benifits, why would anyone save for retirement if the company gives it to you?

Honda and Toyota have been out building them for years. I work in an shop and see all makes and models of cars. I see more GM, Chrysler and Fords for repairs than say Toyota, Honda and Hyundai. You can not beat a Honda or Toyota for reliability. They have fewer repairs in the corse of thier life spand. I own a Chevy k1500, Chevy Venture and a Ford Contour so I am basing my opinion on my past work experiense of 15 years in the industy.

The economy! Gm and Ford have been stuggling before the economy bust. Now that the economy has tanked, it has put a bigger stain on them from sales decline. No one saw it goming. Gas prices going up, Real Estate declining, banks not lending and inflation going up.

Yes the government needs to step in and take control of our country, not just throw money at the situation. They need to fix health care, create jobs and stablize the economy.

I am in favor of a bailout. We need to bailout our contry as a whole.
I beleive that we, as a nation, need to become more self sufficient. We have done this to ourselves. We need to end the war, cut back on foreign trade and clamp down on the borders. We need to support ourselves first instead of the world!

Sorry for the long post. It just burns my a$$ thinking of what this country is becoming.

[Damn True]

I'm part of a salaried union at GM and to be honest....I think they steal $80 of my salary a month. Honestly, I don't see what I get for it. Cost-of-living? The tradeoff is we get a 1% raise (when they're giving raises) while the non-union workers get a lot more so the whole cost-of-living thing cancels out. Also last year when we went on strike for two days to show our support for the blue collar's in 160...one of our members crossed the picket line and came into work those two days. The membership voted to throw him out and International vetoed it and gave him a slap on the hand.

So what the hell am I paying $80 a month for? So some crackerjack in a suit can have a job running a union that tells me what to do?

To hell with them. They can stuff their solidarity up their f*ckin a$$ for all I care.

I'm tellin ya Tony: https://jobs.lucasfilm.com/welcome.html

The Presidio would be an awfully nice place to go to work every morning.

[ITLBTU]

I think you should watch the video! Really, I don't people understand on how many jobs will be lost and how it will affect our economy.



Sorry!! Again you are WRONG, we do not get any bonuses at the end of the year and our cost of living increase amounts to about 2k a year before taxes. Government employees salaries are well below private industry salaries!!

Jeff

http://www.kodakgallery.com/67rscamaro


I didn't mean to imply that they are in the range of autoworkers, but they are more than the average Joe, and their pensions are rediculous. I have a 401k plan, medical and dental, but it pales in comparison to what govt. workers get. I have many friends who are govt. employees....

[Sparky67]

I didn't mean to imply that they are in the range of autoworkers, but they are more than the average Joe, and their pensions are rediculous. I have a 401k plan, medical and dental, but it pales in comparison to what govt. workers get. I have many friends who are govt. employees....


There is 2 types of retirement plans. The old plan was called Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) and to be eligible for that plan. You had to start work back in 1983. (To get the good retirement, you still needed to work 30 to 40 years.) Also most people that are in CSRS, don't do the TSP (401k). The other plan is called FERS (Federal Employment Retirement System), basically it sucks! I have to work until I am 70 to get a good retirement. I am in FERS. Our 401k is called TSP Thrift Savings Plan. Our medical insurance, I have to pay half of it. We have just got dental & vision last year. I have to pay for both of dental and vison, the government pays zero.


Jeff

[DaviRotten]

I hate to say it but the things of heard and read a bailout loan isnt gonna help but jus prolong the death of these companies especailly GM.

[Jim Nilsen]

A lot of people still just don't get it. They're too busy focusing their hatred towards the executives and management in general and not realizing that there's a bigger picture here. YES....it sucks that The Big Three need bailout money....YES the people running this company could have been more proactive and had more foresight. YES they deserve to be punished or fired or whaterver......But this is not about saving the a$$es of the super wealthy executives who steered The Big Three into an iceberg....it's about saving the jobs and livelyhoods of the "little people" who are directly effected by their mismanagement. Don't sacrifice us just to give a hand slap to a bunch of rich guys who wouldn't care anyway.

Forget about Wagoner and the two other dolts running the show. This is about "us", the people behind the scenes. We didn't do anything wrong.

By the way; http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081114/AUTO01/811140430/1148


100% behind you Tony.

The one time they could help out the people on the bottom level and all of those creatons balk at it.

The auto industry is probably the only ones we can help out and get full transparency and actually have an example of how to do it.

Where is Lee Iacoca in all of this? I wonder what he is thinking right now? I bet he is ready to kick some but and hope he does.

When they asked the banks the other day what they were doing with our money and they told everyone they didn't have to say, we should have sent the IRS to ask. Afterall when we tell the IRS that we aren't going to tell them what we do with our money they put us in jail!!!

[Jim Nilsen]

I think the oil industry should come to the aid of the auto industry, after the union gets broke. I used to be in a machinist union years ago. I had to join because the shop that hired me was union. The shop has been closed for some time now. The union was a major reason for the dealership going out of business. Unions were needed 60 years ago, but not now. They are corupt at the leadership and are causing a lot of businesses to go out of business. Look at what they want now... open elections, so they can once again intimidate their members...

Partners in crime for a long time. You may be on to something here.
Without one you can't have the other.

[68sixspeed]

I'm not totally against the bail out...but we need to get the union control out and pay reasonable wages and benefits and pensions. I don't care how good the product is, if the prices are too high people aren't going to buy it if there is a comparable product that cost a lot less. I'm a die hard Chevy guy. I have never purchased a foreign car. I hope it will stay that way. You can't totally blame the big three for prodicing big cars and trucks... they were making what the consumers wanted until the fuel costs went through the roof. We can blame our political leaders for that.

+1 Well said, but it seems like a lot of political leaders answer to the unions way too much. 33000 lobbiest in DC, 70 for each member of congress/senate.

[trapin]

I'm tellin ya Tony: https://jobs.lucasfilm.com/welcome.html

The Presidio would be an awfully nice place to go to work every morning.
That would be an awesome place to work. I am actually finishing up my resume and will be sending it out to them. However, I heard who they employ are mostly computer graphic artists. I am not an artist but rather a product designer. I don't know if they would have a place for me there, but what the hell...it's worth a shot. If the unthinkable should happen.

[Jim Nilsen]

Ask not what your COUNTRY can do for the CORPORATIONS, ask what the CORPORATIONS can do for the COUNTRY.

That's the attitude that this country needs.

The greedy people who are ruining this country and have stolen all of the money are still getting away with it. Why? It's because congress ,the senate and the house of representatives actually passed laws that allowed making people who were doing what they were supposed to do and paying their bills become a risk just because someone said they were. To be able to raise a persons or smaller corporations interest rate and then raise there payment to the point they can't pay was a legal way to steal there property and all of the money they had been paid and vested.All of that money went in their pockets legally. Good people who still had there jobs and paid there bills on time have had their lives ruined because someone decided they were a risk. If all of the politicians who were just voted out were to have their interest rates raised and there payments doubled because they don't have a job anymore it would be justice.

If you all go watch CSPAN,CSPAN1-2-3 and see for yourselves what they are doing you will fall over in disbelief how they run the show.

Also you would see that they are all about ready to take a 2 month vacation at a time we really need them the most to save the country from the ruin they created.
If your place of employment came to you when you were just about ready to take 2 weeks off and told you that they need you to stay and work because they wouldn't be able to get things done without you, and if you do leave there won't be a company to come back to that can afford to pay you ,would you still take that vacation. My union and company have it written that they can revoke your vacation under these circumstances. Why would we allow our polititions to go and leave us in this mess. A Xmas and New Years off would be understandeable but a 2 month vacation is malitious and irresponsible. Let's see what they do and then see what all of us do.

It is up to the people to get them to understand that we are the ones who pay them not the corporations. They just got hired again and they want a vacation :bsjerk:

The oil industry just got done making ten times the money in profits that the auto industry is asking for. Why won't they invest in the exact business that helped them make those profits? If it wasn't for the auto industries mistake they wouldn't have made most of what they did. If it wasn't for the polititians allowing it to happen and they would have voted for the windfall tax in the spring when it was presented on the floor the money would be there for the loan that is being asked for. So it really is our fault for not voting out the whole bunch of them. A totally new group of representatives would be bringing a totally new set of ideas and morals to the the floor. it's our fault. But we can call them now and tell them that we just voted for them now it's time to do what is right and ask or make the corporations who have all of our money step up. It is also tax time and they could tax every damn bonus that every executive just got with a 75% tax and it would raise more money than you could ever imagine. Remember that this is on their bonuses not their salaries. those executive will not be seeing an unemployment line ever so i can't hear them crying and if they do you will know the ones who are the greediest of all.

When asked the other day to disclose where all of the bailout money has gone so far, the federal reserve told us to go to the banks and ask them. When we went to the banks and asked them, they told us they didn't have to. I say let the IRS ask them. When the IRS asks us what we do with our money at an audit and we tell them we aren't going to ,they put us in jail. That's exactly where our repesentatives need to put those bankers who refuse to tell us. They stole the money to start with and lost it and now they are going to steal it again and lose it. How many times do you have to have it happen before you get mad enough to call your government on the floor and make them accountable.

We are stupid if we don't help keep the companies and the jobs safe and we don't have to give the money away like we have proven ouselves to let happen . There is a thing called a loan and Chrysler and Lee Iacocca have proved it to work and we all know it.

So quit arguing over the bull crap about whether it is the right thing to and do the right thing the right way and make sure it is disclosed and the first corporation that tries to hide or steal the money gets a nice leardership disection right to prison and new management to take over.

It is not very difficult to see when there is something wrong and all of us on either side of the argument know that something is wrong. Join together ,stop being divided and kick the people who represent us in the ass this week before they all turn their backs and go on vacation.

So step up guy's and open your eyes. It's a lot of bullcrap to wade through and whoever it is you are pointing the finger at is probably guilty, so let's go after them and all and get our money back and help the country where it is needed.

We the PEOPLE :1st:
:enguard: