UPDATE 4/28/05 My engine is ALIVE!!!!! It runs again!!!!!

[CAMAROBOY69]

Well as we all know I have been having some great luck this year with everything on my car. Unfortunatly the good luck is over and the bad luck season has begun.
On my way home from Woodward I head a loud knock that repeated about 3 times so I instantly pulled over. I turned it off and started it back up. The knock persisted. I bowed my head and just about cried.
I waited about 5 minutes started it again and it seemed to disappear. I drove all the way home and the engine is squeling pretty bad. I assumed it was a rod bearing or main bearing.
I drained the oil and didnt see any metal shavings. Tired and depressed I decided to come in for the night and ask for suggestions. Tomorrow I will disconnect the belts to the alternator and waterpump in desperate hope that its just that. If not what is the quickest way to tell if its a main or rod bearing? Just drop the pan? If anyone would like a sound clip of the horrible noise I can do that if it helps.

[MrQuick]

Sorry to hear about that Adam, I hope its an external problem...come on water pump!!! :fingersx: I like to use a stethescope or a long screw driver works too.You can also pull a plug wire one at a time to narrow down the sound location...if your running an MSD don't do it they don't like that...HEI be real carefull.Just get the RPMs to the point of knocking then test. You might want to pull your plugs and inspect them,I had a plug break on me and it sounded like a rod knock. good luck bro. Vince

[alky]

Remove the oil filter, drain, and cut it open. Inspect filter media for metal. My friend saved his crank by doing this. Found small golden particals in filter element. Bearing material. motor was not knocking before.

[68protouring454]

adam i would definetely have the oil filter cut open to inspect for particles, and to see what color they are, any engine shop should have the opener for the oil filter, it can be bought cheaply also. how many miles on motor?? you sure its a knock and not a lifter tick?? maybe a cam lobe got messed up?? but it probaly would have skipped or back fired if this were it, goodluck
jake :banghead:

[Norwoodx55]

I have seen a harmonic balancer that started to come apart and sounded like a rod knock at different RPM's. The outer ring would move back into the timing cover and make the noise. Hope you find it is something as simple (and external) as this.
Good Luck
Brett

[jannes_z-28]

Well as we all know I have been having some great luck this year with everything on my car. Unfortunatly the good luck is over and the bad luck season has begun.
On my way home from Woodward I head a loud knock that repeated about 3 times so I instantly pulled over. I turned it off and started it back up. The knock persisted. I bowed my head and just about cried.
I waited about 5 minutes started it again and it seemed to disappear. I drove all the way home and the engine is squeling pretty bad. I assumed it was a rod bearing or main bearing.


OH NOOO!!!!

Adam I am sorry, as you know, I know your frustration.

You are a very energic person so I guess you will have it back together soon, that is if you have the funds for it. I remember some post that you have spent your budget. Same here.

My self I haven't looked at it since my disaster, but I am starting to feel a little more motivated.

I hope that it isn't as bad as mine, those noices can sometimes be from minor stuff, but you never know for sure.

Have you pulled the plugs and valve covers yet? That will usually tell a lot.

Feeling sorry for you my friend,


Jan

[CAMAROBOY69]

Thanks for all the support and feedback. I havent looked at the car since I looked at the oil. I wanted to mention some more specific information about the engine. Heres what happend in order.
1. Idle increased to about 1,000rpm by itself about 15 minutes before the knocking.
2. It only knocked for a few seconds then stalled out
3. knocking stopped
4. Started and drove it home running kinda weird. Loss in power. Louder thru exhaust like a slight miss.
5. Final noise is not a knock its a continuious metalic squeal.
In a few days ill give it a look to see what it could be. The engine has mabey around 5,000 miles on it. Hopefully at worst it is just something on the upper half of the engine or I might not make it to the Power tour or woodward next year. Well I could just take the engine out of my truck for now. :evil: Yes motivation is there but funds are as dry as they can get. :candle:

[yody]

sounds like you have an unusual problem, defienetly could be a water pump, but don't know if that woudl cause the enigne to run weird, doesn't soudn like a cam, coudl it be a broken valve spring or rocker stud? this can cause it to miss, but don't know about the weird noises, balancer sounds suspicious, but when the balancer ring comes off it usually runs fine, just makes a terrible racket, you wom't know until you start inspecting things, i one time had a terrible noise, my balancer flew off the crank snout and put a dent in the timing cover, the chain was knocking against the cover, everyone said i had a rod knock

[zbugger]

Might be a long shot, but check the clutch? Just throwing it out there...

[jannes_z-28]

Adam,

You should at least pull the plug as soon as possible, if the worst have happened. I mean if it has caused a water leak (broken cylinder wall) it is not good to have it stand with water in it.

I had a similar thing a few years back when a exhaust spring broke and bent that valve. The valve stuck in open position but didn't hit anything so it was drivable. (It hit the piston initially but it got bent and stuck up in the head)

It sounded terrible and had weak power. I was far away from home and was able to drive it home.


Let us know what has happened.


Jan

[gmachinz]

I suddenly developed a knocing sound as I was cruising with my '70 Monte and it ran fine but had a slight loss of power and was missing a little bit until I got the RPM's up around 2,000 or so. It turned out to be a split rocker arm-it broke right out from around the fulcrum ball. Weirdest thing I ever seen. It broke in three cracks and one half was laying in the head-it was on the exhaust side #7. -G

[workbenchracer]

I've had a few instances of mysterious noise. Several times when running an automatic I had the flew plate crack/ break. Sounded like a rod but this would not affect your idle or power. Also had the crank break right at the front. Last thing was that I pulled a rocker stud out. Too much cam and spring for press in studs. Tried to adjust the backlash but the stud kept coming out but I didn't notice. Finally after a lot of adjusting I flattened the lobe on the cam. Wasn't using my head there. You might try checking the compression to see if you can find the troubled cylinder.

[dennis68]

I pulled an engine on a 90 GMC because another tech diaged it as being locked up. Got it out and realized the alt was seized and with the belts on the engine would not crank. Pulled the belts and reinstalled-ran fine. Check your accesories before anyhting else, they will drag the engine down and make lots of noise. Go ask a Caravan owner what a water pump going out sounds like, you would swear the engine was falling out.

[Matt@RFR]

I'm gonna guess that you either hung an exhaust valve or two, and/or the timing chain skipped a couple teeth.

[JMitch19]

I'm with Matt. My 67 camaro stuck an exhaust valve; piston then smacked the valve. No bottom end damage in my case. Hope the same for you. $400 and about six hours of work later she was running again. By the way I'm just up the road in Grand Rapids and I have an awsome head guy if that does end up being your problem.

[zbugger]

Well, that wouldn't account for the metalic squeal he's getting. I'd definitely check the accessories. The belts make a hideous squeal, and if they are tight enough, it can drag on your engine. The knock may have been from this dragging on your engine, and then stalling it out. This could also have caused the timing chain to jump too though. I've seen stranger things, but it's all possible.

[Jims78elky]

Oh..crap Adam!

Sorry about that news,just a thought,have you done a
comppresion check? Might give you a clue about whats
going on,if the readings are low on one cylinder,i would
search that over:candle:.

Iam buy no means a engine pro,but some of the basic
testing tools can tell allot ,i hope its not major,and you
get it going again,you have done such a great job on
the camaro...Please hang in there!

Best of luck to you!

[toofun]

Hello Adam,

How was the oil pressure? If it was a spun bearing I would think you would have lost pressure immediately. If I had to guess I would have to agree on it being something in the top part of the motor. My guess would be a busted spring or wiped out cam lobe. Definately would take the filter apart and check it. You will be amazed at what a filter will tell you. Secondly, take the valve covers off and have a good look at all of the rockers and springs. I had part of a dual spring break apart on a big block chevelle I had once. The spring looked fine until I took a real good look and found that a chunk had broken off. Motor knocked and missed just like you described. I later found the part in the pan!!! Good Luck.

P.S. If you ever want to sell that tire and rim combo you have, be sure to let me know. It looks killer!!!!

[CAMAROBOY69]

Well after I got home tonight I spent about an hour and a half and here are the results......
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[68protouring454]

adam, thats a relief as long as no fragments of push rod ended up in bottom of pan. look like the stock push rods, they will always bend when using a big lift cam with stiff springs, get some comp cams magnums or something upgraded, hopefully that is all that is wrong,
let us know, did you do a compresion test before taking apart??
jake

[MrQuick]

i've seen that before. Once when the valve seized in the head from excessive carbon around the valve guide. the other time when used 1.6 ratio rockers on an engine with very tight clearences. I hope your's is from rocker failure, but it looks like lack of oil...how was your oil pressure before the failure?

[ZZ430]

but it looks like lack of oil...how was your oil pressure before the failure?

I agree, things sure look dry and crispy. Looks like no oil at all up there.

[Matt@RFR]

I'll third that. Looks awfull dry up top. That would explain the #7 exh rocker.

...And would you fix that exhaust crossover leak allready?!?!?!?!

:hammer:

[yody]

maybe the holes in your pushrods are all gummy and closed up? make sure to check the length's of our pushrods, instead of just ordering stock pushrods!

[yody]

Clean Out That Lifter Valley!!!!

[zbugger]

Well Adam, at least the fix won't break your budget!!!

[Matt@RFR]

Clean Out That Lifter Valley!!!!

Yeah dude, you're going to want to change your oil before you put that thing back together if it doesn't have to be yanked.


Allen, I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'd bet that there's an oil passage or two that're pretty badly restricted. Who prepped the block? Have you ever adjusted the valves with the motor running? If yes, was there oil spurting out of the pushrods? Some of the rockers in his pictures are DRY. I mean, BONE dry. That aint good fellas.

[Edit] Please tell me this block wasn't prepped for a roller valve train!

[CAMAROBOY69]

My oil pressure was the same when all this happened. About 45 when I was about 2,000rpm and I think around 25ish at idle 600rpm
That is a good point about it looking dry up top. I saw some metal shavings under another rocker and they were dry but I didnt even think about it at the moment.
I did not build this engine I had it professionally built for me. I agree though now that I think about it, it did seem dry up there.

...And would you fix that exhaust crossover leak allready?!?!?!?!
Im not sure what this exhaust crossover leak comment means?

Clean Out That Lifter Valley!!!!
You mean before I put it all back together right. I pretty much figured that already. I already planned on changing the oil again too.
Ok any suggestions now since you see the damage??? What could cause the oil not to get up top? Push rods seemed fine but im not an engine builder and I wont pretend to act like I know anything about engines. :dunno:

[ProdigyCustoms]

You do have an oiling problem my friend. Are those stock lifters? It almost looks to me like the lifters are not allowing oil in. I have had this problem before with lifters with the oil holes to high for the block, and not letting oil through. You may want to check the lifters with a known correct lifter, maybe go to a parts store to match it up. And be sure the oil hole in the lifter is at the same height on the lifter body. If it is too high, it will never work.
If that checks out OK, I would look to the oil galleries for blockage

[ProdigyCustoms]

Another thing could be the push rods. If they are the wrong length, they can miss the oiling hole in the rocker. Also, if there is a bunch of lift in the cam, the push rod can miss the rocker oil hole also, but looking at your lifters, it doesn't look like they are out of the hole more the .300 or so, so I am guessing the cam is .450 lift or less. I think your rocker angles look all right from what I can see, so I would not think the push rod length, or lift, is the problem, but something to check. I would almost bet if you remove a couple push rods, wipe them dry on the outside, stand them on a paper towel overnight, you will see nothing. Even if it has not run for a while, you should get oil out of them. If they are dry inside, the problem is below the push rods. Also, it will be interesting to see if the lifters are wet around the outside of them.

[Matt@RFR]

...And would you fix that exhaust crossover leak allready?!?!?!?!

That was supposed to be a joke. Kinda. The exhaust crossovers are those little ports in the head inbetween the two sets of intake ports. They circulate exh gasses underneath the manifold to warm it up faster, making it driveable faster.

Check out what the guys have told you to. If none of them are the problem, here's my thoughts:

It's time to pull the motor. Take the bellhousing off and make sure your builder didn't install restrictors in the lifter galleys. (The two plugs on either side of the back of the cam) They look like the two attached pictures, and you'll have to remove them to check.

If they're just regular plugs, then you'll probably be tearing the motor down and having the block cleaned. Blocked oil galleys are a very serious thing, and I think that's your problem (again, if none of the more simple checks find anything).

I'm also guessing that the pushrod broke because the #7 intake valve is hung open, maybe even bent. That will have to be checked out too. Take the #7 spark plug out and squirt compressed air in the hole. If air comes out the intake port or out the exhaust, you've got stuck valves.

I hope you find it's something simple!!!

[CAMAROBOY69]

Great information guys and ill check on as much stuff as I know how to check with your help. This motor can't have over 5,000 miles on it. I wonder how the passages got plugged up? My engine guy is usually excellent. I still have the engine in my white truck and its been in 2 different trucks, over 6 years old abused severly but will start up and run in the click of a finger. So I wonder what happened to this engine? I took great care of it, never let it overheat, changed oil every 2,000 miles or less usually only hit 6,000RPM occasionally. I even tried not to let it idle too much because my engine guy said that starves the cam and upper half of the engine of oil. I just want to make sure whatever happened wont happen again. Preventive maintenance if you know what I mean. :poke:
:edit: There is one thing that I remember that always drove me nuts about this engine. From the day I installed the engine and started it the first time, it always smoked on startup. Even up till last week it still smoked on start up. I mentioned it to my engine guy and he said I have oversized valve guides to prevent them from siezing up. So I just said ok. But it wouldnt smoke after it was started. It was smoke from oil too because it was blue and smelled like oil smoke.

[Matt@RFR]

Quotes from Adam's engine builder:


I even tried not to let it idle too much because my engine guy said that starves the cam and upper half of the engine of oil.


he said I have oversized valve guides to prevent them from siezing up.

What????!!!! Adam, I advise you to find a different engine builder, or learn how to build them yourself.

[68protouring454]

matt i agree, although i have heard of racers running over size valve seals on the exhaust side, do not know the reason but have heard it from fairly knowledgable car guys, but man i would not want that on my car., also the only time you should not let the engine idle is during break in, you want the lifters to spin in the bores and not sit still so you need to run them motor at 2000 rpms or over for 20 mins, anyway, did engine guy break cam in ?? or did you?? i would tear motor apart for inspection, i lost a lobe on a hydraulic cam 4 years ago in a 454, after 2000 miles, at same time i bent a push rod and the debris seized my oil pump, luckily it did not get my crank or rods, i installed new bearings, and went with a solid cam, this time around i broke motor in for 30 mins at 2000-2500 and had no problems, let us know
jake

[CAMAROBOY69]

I broke the cam and engine in once I installed it back into the car. I did exactly as described. rpm 2,000 for 20 minutes. Broke it in how he told me also. Changed oil instantly after cam broke in. Then again after 500 miles then agan after 1,000 just for the heck of it.
I also forgot to mention that when all this happened with the broken parts last week, I lost that "cam" sound that I loved so much. Is that because of the failed cylinder or did the cam get destroyed from this? Final question for now... Could these broken parts be the excessive SQUEELING noise in the engine?????

[Matt@RFR]

Jake, Adam's engine builder said he's got oversized valve guides in Adam's motor, not seals. Wow, never heard of that one!! lol

Slightly oversized, or a lesser quality valve guide seal is what a lot of builders use on the exhaust side. This is done because the exhaust valve is much hotter than the intake valve and needs more oil in the guide to keep from just burning off. This is most prevelant on silicon bronze guides that like to be good and tight on the valve stem (.0015-.002" if I remember correctly...it's been awhile).

Adam, what valve springs are you running? What cam are you running? If the springs are stiff enough-probably anything over 250lbs on the seat- you need to remove the inner springs for break in, then re-install after you've got the cam broken in. Does this apply to you?

Ya know, oil pressure isn't necessarily the end-all indicator that you have a motor going south. My first small block had too-stiff valve springs in it (long story, but it's why I hate Trick Flow) and ate the cam. (still had a lope though) When I finally tore that motor down, it was running 55-60psi oil pressure at speed and probably 20-25psi at idle, hot. Dig it....the tightest main bearing clearence was .010". Yeah, TEN THOUSANDTHS. How it still had pressure, I have never figured out.

As far as the squeeling sound....oof, that doesn't lend much of a positive outlook for your motor dude. I have no idea what it might be though.

[CAMAROBOY69]

My engine guy might have said guide seals but some engine terms are over my head. And that was I think around 2 years ago when I got the engine rebuilt.
This is about the only thing I know when it comes to engine specs. If you need more I can dig up more specs from receipts and sheets that he gave me.
Chevy Small Block 383 c.i.d. Stroker
10.5-11 compression
Keith Black pistons
Clevite mains and rod bearings
Chrome molly rings
Hydraulic cam
12250-3 comp cam extreme energy cam 240
Eagle rods
Cast crank
Edelbrock performer air gap intake[edl-7501]
1970 heads 194/160 valves machined for larger springs
Screw in rocker studs
Push rod guides
Rev limit 7,000rpm

[Matt@RFR]

Looking at your pictures, the springs appear to be single springs with dampners...no problem there for the break in.

11:1 with 1.94 iron heads, huh?

Eagle rods on a cast crank, huh?

Do those things strike anyone else as wierd?

[CAMAROBOY69]

1. Cam Specs ,
2. I see 3 springs per valve?,
3. Passenger head
4. Driver head
I found all my receipts so if you want a part scanned let me know. I want to know what I really have for an engine if my engine guy doesnt know what hes doing. I wasnt real happy with him on this build anyway since I really wanteed 500hp but only got about 400. Oh well I wont be going back to him anyway.
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[CAMAROBOY69]

and....here are the engine components.
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[68protouring454]

adam the 3 rockers in the middle on the drivers side head are dry, the others look ok, and the passneger side looks ok, i wonder what ius going on to make just those dry??
jake

[slck6t9]

Adam sorry about the engine but are those your girlfriends jeans stuffed under the manifold? HA HA :evil:

[ProdigyCustoms]

Weird why it is getting some wet, but not others. The cam is a touch bigger then I guessed from pics, at 500+ lift, One thing I would seriously consider would be at least some roller tip rockers, or some true rollers. You may simply be pushing the stock arms with spring pressure and lift travel.
Whatever though, the oiling is a real issue. I seriously doubt your builder installed oil limiters, but you could ask. Limiters are usually for rollers.
Also, your a little small in the cam and heads for 500HP. Head flow alone would limit you to lower 400HP numbers. You'll need to work those heads big time (or step up to aftermarkets) and maybe up the cam a tick to see 500HP.

[Mark Antrim]

I went to the garage to get my catalogs and this is what I see. The crank is a cast steel eagle crank which matches the rods. the pistons are a flat top 2 valve relief. Cant see what you casting number for your heads so if they were 64cc chamber heads it would be 10.9:1, If they were 76cc chambers it would be 9.6:1. The valve guides are just a cast iron replacement guide. As far as the springs they are for that cam and are a dual spring setup.
I dont like the three rockers being dry. I agree that the heads are going to limit you on horsepower. Even with porting them, it might not still make 500 hp. Let me know if I can help with anything. Not trying to sell my self but I run a machine shop. I'll look over you info you have already given and see if there is anything I might be overlooking.
Do you have any more adjustment on the rockers? It lookes like they might have bottomed out or are close.

Mark Antrim

[yody]

no way you making 500 HP with those heads!! you probably have about 9.6-1, otherwise you would be pinging like crazy! Time to pull motor(and clean that engine compartment!) and disassemble it, something is not right. There are too many variables here, you need to bite the bullit and pull it, at the same time you could slap on some aftermarket heads and get a bunch more horse, your cam is pretty healthy cam with 240/246 @.050 duration. I think it matches your combo well(except for your heads) sounds like you have a decent engine, you need to pull it apart and ask us questions and post pictures along the way. Good luck, you can probably have this motor out, fixed and in within a few weeks.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I am guessing they are 041 castings with the triangle on the face of the head? Unless they have milled big time, these guys are right on the compression, although they can easily be milled to 64cc or less to make your 11:1.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Did you miss the post earlier when he he said cash was tight? I doubt he will be doing anything more then needed.

[chicane67]

~So Matt, you "Hate Trick Flow" because of what?? ......because you tried to stuff a broomstick camshaft into an engine with real spring pressure and you didnt account for that??

~Now thats funny.

Adam~ 400 hp sounds about right for that cam and peripherals. You are not going to get 500hp with .510 at the valve..... and I dont care if you ran 318* total duration, but your builder was correct by not installing something you didnt need camshaft wise.

Do me a favor and pull the number 3 and 5 plugs out and tell me what you see. Heck, if you can, take pictures...

[yody]

"......because you tried to stuff a broomstick camshaft into an engine "
that is plain hilarious! but on another note you sure are harsh lately, but i am getting a kick out of it! he probably doesn't like trickflow because he had the twisted wedge heads that were flawed. I didn't see the post about adam being on a budget, i still say he pulls the motor. that is the only way to do it, don't waste time trying to dodge it.

[Matt@RFR]

Nope. I hate Trick Flow because when I built that motor, I was 15. I called them and told them my age, my inability to pick the correct valve springs, and asked for help getting a set of springs for my heads to be used with my .49x lift cam. When I got the springs in the mail, I called again asking if they were sure these were the right springs, because they looked awfully stout to me; They said they'd be fine. They had me measure the relaxed height, coil diameter and diameter of the springs to make sure I didn't get shipped the right part number but wrong springs (which I appreciated). I even went so far as to ask them if there was a good way to break the cam in with these springs, and they said no.

I had the heads assembled for me and then (with the help of a long time engine builder) put the engine together.

Fast forward 20,000 miles. I finally complain to the guy that helped me assemble the motor that I have a couple valves ticking and I can't get rid of it, no matter how many times I run the valves (hyd flat tappet, by the way). It's at this point that we tore the thing down and found three lobes gone and a couple others on their way, along with a very nicely "clearenced" oil pump and main/rod/cam bearings.

My friendly local machine shop checked the valve springs (now it's been a long time, but these numbers are pretty close to what they measured): On the seat was close to 280psi and open was something like 700psi. Roller springs. Oopsie!

So now, we drop the heads off at the machine shop again to have them put different springs in them while we rebuild the motor. Machine shop calls the next day saying that ALL the guides have between .010-.015 clearance. (After 20,000 miles?????) I say change 'em. They say ok. They call back and say that they can't press the guides out. They even sent them to another machine shop and they couldn't press 'em out either. wtf. By the time I had someone machine the guides out, press new ones in, do a valve job and assemble, I could've bought a brand new set of heads....and they would've done the same thing in another 20,000 miles. I understand that the first version of the twisted wedge heads had the rocker arm geometry wrong and would eat guides. Again, wtf.

So I'm back on the phone with Trick Flow. I told them what happened, and all I wanted to do was make them aware of the situation so it didn't happen again. I was told, "Well, you shouldn't have run those springs, click" No kidding? Gee, thanks for the tech support.



So there ya have it, that's why I hate Trick Flow. Thanks for ASSuming though, it's appreciated.

[68protouring454]

you just need to read the whole thread to see that he may not be able to get it running till next spring, seems like you get too excited and miss posts on threads, cause you have one thought on your mind, that one thought i have no idea what it is
jake

[CAMAROBOY69]

Guys I know I dont have 500 hp lol You read my reply out of context. When I first told my engine guy to set me up for 500 hp he got most of the way thru the build up and THEN he said I needed aluminum heads and different cam to get to 500hp. I KNOW I have about 400+ hp,. Thats what I already said. I already plan on AFR heads or some aluminum heads but thats a different topic for when I have money. ;)
The rocker arms supposed to be longer than stock because of the cam.
Yeah I am flat broke with no sign of any money coming till income tax season.
Ill pull the plugs and lifters some time soon and let you know what I see. After that I guess I will start tearing the heads apart. Damn that sucks.
This is what I would consider for next year to get to the power tour and to Woodward:
1. If I don't have money: I will pull the engine out of my white truck and put it into the Camaro to get me around. I dont have to go fast to have fun with the car. ---or---
2. If I somehow get some money then I will get new aluminum heads and everything I need to get my 400hp stroker up to 500hp.
EDIT: As for the compression. My car does not like anything under 92octane.
EDIT: Anyone interrested in these heads if I sell them? Mabey another topic for that. Hmm not sure
Edit: What is the third spring that I see in each valve? I see 3 springs.

[Matt@RFR]

Adam, that third "spring" is actually a dampner. No tech beyond that, sorry.

[chicane67]

Yodi~ Yea, every now and then I get a little snappy with the humor.

Matt~ What a fiasco that was. I wasnt picking on you, I was just getting a little 'poke in the ribs' on ya. My assumption was all in the name of good (albiet granular) humor. But I did however, especially like the part where (you) they stated:



.......I even went so far as to ask them if there was a good way to break the cam in with these springs, and they said no.

No? Then why would you sell them? Or at least advise to run it in with tender springs first........

Even after you requested a spring for a 0.49x lift cam.......and you recieved a spring that the seat was close to 280psi and open was something like 700psi........that is a dam good reason to be a hater. I feel your pain, now that I know the story. Those springs would make a broomstick out of anything this side of steel billet.


Adam~ Yup. Any problem like this sucks. A good thing is all of the upgrades you will be able to do !!! The bad thing is........no moola to get it back into shape as soon as you want it !! I hate patience.......but this is part of the learning curve. Just take your time during the teardown, and look at everything very carefully. You can learn a-lot from a/the teardown and you might possibly find the culprit to its failure.

The dampner spring is to eliminate the spring bounce at high rpm when using higher spring pressures. It pretty much tries to keep the valve on the seat when the valve closes, so that it does not bounce off of the seat, when the valve slams closed because of high spring pressure.

[CAMAROBOY69]

Upon request here are pics of the engine with the driver side head off. I just dont understand. I dont see any damage to the pistons, lifters, or the heads. Im lost. What do you see wrong? Anything else you want pics of? The engine is so new I can still see the hone marks!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img236.echo.cx/my.php?image=14tq.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img236.echo.cx/my.php?image=22za.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img236.echo.cx/my.php?image=38cb.jpg)

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

is it me or the valves look like they not seated right ?

[CAMAROBOY69]

I guess no one has any idea at all so I will put it back together.

[CAMAROBOY69]

is it me or the valves look like they not seated right ?
I just got home and after a second look I think you are right! All 4 exhaust valves look like this on this head.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img95.echo.cx/my.php?image=16di.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img95.echo.cx/my.php?image=20tn.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img95.echo.cx/my.php?image=39gm.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img95.echo.cx/my.php?image=48ns.jpg)

[68protouring454]

put a flashlight on stem side of valves in exhaust port and see if you can see light, those should have at least a 3 angle valve job done to them, also might be worth installing with old gasket and take a compression test, should be up around 170 or so all the way around
jake

[ZZ430]

It's not unusual for the exhaust valves to stick up a little, they are thicker than the intakes.

Try filling the combustion chambers with solvent and see if they seal.

[CAMAROBOY69]

T/Y Don and Jake. I will try those methods out tonight. I will just use some gas as the solvent.
So it could possibly be normal for them to stick out like that? That would be good news but if I try the methods mentioned above then the heads will pretty much need some work done for sure.
Another question. If the valves were always like that, would that explain why the engine always smoked on startup then after a few minutes wouldnt smoke any more? Thanks again.

[toofun]

Hey Adam,

If all of the exhaust valves were a little open like it seems, it definately would make sense that the exhaust would smoke like that on start up. It would make sense to me, since the seals and rest of the engine would be cold and have not yet heated up and expanded enought to seal properly. Regardless, the valves should be seated tight against the valve seat hot or cold. Think that is part of the problem for sure. If the valve job was not done properly on the heads, It could be that the rest of the head work was not done right either. If I were you, I would take the heads to ANOTHER shop just to see what they think. Not many shops will admit that the work they did was wrong. Have the new shop look over the heads, disassemble them, inspect them and see what they recommend doing to them and WHY. This way you know exactly what may or may not have been done.

The good news is that I think its safe to say the bottom half of the motor is OK, so if you could get the heads straightened out you may be good to go. If it were me, I would just get a new set of heads. If you hunt around you could find a good deal and really bring that motor to life. The heads you are currently using are really choking that motor. Its money for sure, but money well invested especially considering what you put into the bottom end of that motor.

Goodluck

MARK
TOOFUN

[CAMAROBOY69]

I checked the heads last night for any leaks with a flashlight. Next I flipped them over, put the plugs in, then filled ever combustion chamber full of gas. No leaks at all.
Next I took the heads to a local shop to have them inspected. So far the heads seat perfectly.

[68protouring454]

sounds good, you would of known if a few exhaust valves were not seating, the motor would of not run right, did engine shop say anything about being dry??
jake

[CAMAROBOY69]

I just dropped it off late last night before the shop closed. I wont know anything until early next week. Mabey tuesday if im lucky. He is going to completely disassemble the head. I told him about the engine smoking on start up and he said he will be replacing the guides for sure. No reason it should smoke ever. So looks like I am pulling the other head off too. I guess I get to learn a little about engine assembly since I will be reinstalling the heads and rockers myself. :scared:
This is my weak spot in engine assembly. I can install almost everything but never knew exactly how to install and adjust rockers perfectly.

[CAMAROBOY69]

I just got the results back from the head.
4 scorned valves but valve seat was perfectly normal.
4 bad valve guides.
So for the new valves, 2 push rods, a few rockers, valve guides, head gasket, intake gaskets and the labor for him to put the valves back in the head the total will be around
$150.00
I will just put the head back on myself and re-assemble the engine and see what happens.

[toofun]

Hey Adam,

That sounds like good news!! Glad to hear that it wasnt anything major with the short block. Got a question for you. You said that you had a good source for a t-56 conversion. Could you let me know the connection and how much the whole conversion ran you? Really interested in doing this soon.

THanks
Mark
TOOFUN

[CAMAROBOY69]

Mark,
I picked my tranny up from a guy in Brighton Tennessee. His name is Rodney Massengale. He did everything he could to make sure I was happy with the purchase. I think that Jake(68protouring454) from this site also got his tranny from Rodney after I directed him in Rodneys direction. Rodney is a great guy and very dependable.
Here is his number 765-529-9919 and just tell him Adam from Michigan with the 69 Camaro sent you and im sure he will remember me. :smoke:
I picked up all the parts on Sunday for my engine and it was $130.00 so now all I have to do is put it back together and get it running. I wont get too excited yet until it runs again. It does seem like good news so far though.

[toofun]

Hey Adam,

Good luck and thanks for the info. Could you tell me if when you bought your tranny from this guy, did it come with everything you needed to bolt into your car or did you just buy the tranny from him and all the other parts elsewhere.

Thanks
Mark

[CAMAROBOY69]

I bought just the tranny from Rodney. It came with a short throw shifter.
To get it to bold up to the engine, I bought my crossmember, and hydrolic clutch master assembly kit from from Tyler (TitoJones) on this site. His business is American Touring Specialties (http://www.t56kit.com/).
He is a great guy and very helpful. His product was very easy to install with very little modification. Many members from this site have bought his product with much satisfaction.

[CAMAROBOY69]

I worked on the Camaro last night and got the head, intake, rockers, pushrods, lifters, distributor, distributor cap, wires all on last night in around 2 hours. And some other stuff too. I forgot how much I hate installing the MSD distributor.
I plan on adjusting the rockers tonight and hopefully get it running.
Only thing left is fill with antifreeze, install header, valve covers, plugs, wires, fuel filter then see what happens.

[CAMAROBOY69]

ITS ALIVE!!!!! I got it running tonight and it is oiling properly!!! WHEWWW HEWWWW!! :) :) :drive:
When the push rod broke last year it forced the lifter up enough to block the oil passage and the 2 hour drive home is what caused the head to get dry.

[ZZ430]

Congrats Adam, it's nice when things work out.

[68protouring454]

glad to hear its running, alot better a head not getting oil compared to the bottom end
bet you cannot wait for a drive
jake

[toofun]

Glad it worked out Adam. Dont forget to adjust those valves properly like we discussed. Good Luck and enjoy!!!

Mark
TOOFUN

[CAMAROBOY69]

Thanks guys. I am soo excited. I am actually taking it for a test drive tonight. Tomorrow morning I am bringing it to a really good guy to have him time it for me perfectly and mabey tweak a few rockers. I think I have the driver side rockers all set but I am going to do the passenger side too for the heck of it. Hard to believe by tomorrow I could actually be driving this again as a daily driver pounding thru all 6 gears again. :drive:

[68protouring454]

sounds great adam, do you have a light to get timing close?? or if not just mess with it to get a decent idle and it should be ok
let us know
jake

[CAMAROBOY69]

I timed it by ear last night. Hard to believe I dont have a timing light. :slap: For some reason the last time I tried to time this car with a timing light it just didnt work right so I will let a professional do it. I have been able to time every other vehicle perfect besides this one when I borrow a timing light. :lmao:
Hmm for some reason I cant change the title of this thread??

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

can we get some more burn out videos with the new rebuild hehe

[CAMAROBOY69]

Probably wont be any extensive abuse footage for a while. I am just going to be very thankful to drive it again. I cant believe how hard it is on the back now to work on my engine since I lower the car. Lifting that cast iron head over the fender then down to the engine was not a real pleasant experience for the back. I am very sore today but thankful to see it running. Thats the first time I ever INSTALLED a head and rockers.
The most amazing part is that if I had just replaced the rocker and pushrod in detroit i would have been driving my car again for only about $20 worth of parts but since I drove for 2 hours it ended up costing more money. Great learning lesson for me. :hammer:
Im very lucky it only ended up costing me under $150 for the parts, machine work on head and the gaskets. And a sore body.

[68protouring454]

whats the deal, you drive it??
jake

[CAMAROBOY69]

Jake,
Sorry for the delayed response. I drove the Camaro ALL WEEKEND LONG!!! It seems to be back to normal. These were my faces the entire time I drove the car this weekend. :fingersx: :headbang: :drive1: :3gears:
I also forgot all the incredible attention and positive feedback everywhere I drive too. :cheers:

[68protouring454]

so you better be planning on that track day
jake

[CAMAROBOY69]

You better believe it.Thats all I can think about right now. I started working on the car yesterday. Got the wipers hooked up to the new dash. Those wipers would have been nice on the Shower tour last year but thankfully there is rain-x. :lmao:
Now to hook up the heater and a few other items. 35 degrees this morning.
I actually started testing how well the car would corner this weekend. I think its going to be tough to steer without power steering and the brakes definetly suck bad. Other than that there doesnt seem to be as much body roll as I expected.
I am staring at my car outside the window at work today. Its been a lonnnnng time since its been here. :usa: