What coolant to run on a LS2/alum radiator setup?

[Steve1968LS2]

I'm not digging the Dexcool... when we tore the engine out there was this pink sludge everywhere and it seemed to have a grit to it.

No maybe that's just normal for Dexcool, but it seemed odd.

Suggestions on what to run or is the Dexcool mix fine?


Thanks

[CarlC]

Problems like yours are usually associated with some type of contamination. Air, residual green AF, etc. Dexcool needs to have a pristine operating environment and a recovery system that allows zero air into the system during purge/suck. When used in a properly designed and cleaned system, it is fantasti, but the margin of error is such that it does not lend itself well to our applications.

The standard green works very well. Just change it every two years to keep the anti-corrosion additive package healthy. 50/50 mix

[GetMore]

Problems like yours are usually associated with some type of contamination. Air, residual green AF, etc. Dexcool needs to have a pristine operating environment and a recovery system that allows zero air into the system during purge/suck. When used in a properly designed and cleaned system, it is fantasti, but the margin of error is such that it does not lend itself well to our applications.

The standard green works very well. Just change it every two years to keep the anti-corrosion additive package healthy. 50/50 mix
This is probably the best post I have ever seen regarding the use of Dexcool. Thank you!

[protour73]

Steve...........unless you thoroughly flushed that engine, prior to the Dexcool, I'll be willing to bet that there was alot of casting sand in the block and heads, from the manufacture process.

[Chris442]

I'm not a big fan of Dexcool either, but I also used to have an '02 S10 with a 4.3, which is basically the poster child for Dexcool problems.

Like Carl said, air can be a big problem for it, and that is problem with the 4.3 and a potential problem for most of our cooling systems. The problem with the design of the S10's cooling system was that it used a conventional radiator with the cap on the tank and an overflow tank that is not pressurized like a surge tank would be. If unchecked like my S10 (it's 100000 mile coolant after all, right), coolant can evaporate and allow air into the cooling system when it cools off. It's my understanding that this is what causes the "Dexcool sludge" and eats the intake gaskets on the 4.3 in particular.

On the other hand, I've never really heard of people having these problems with LS1s. Almost all LS motors have cooling systems with surge tanks, which I would imagine limit evaporation compared with an overflow tank that is just open to atmosphere.

Most of the cars on here probably have an conventional overflow on them, and in my cases it's probably too small, too. I know this is how the cooling system on my LS7 Camaro is.

Rather than risk anything with the Dexcool, I like to use Zerex G-05 in my cars. It's a longlife coolant, but the chemistry of it is supposed to be less corrosive than Dexcool's. It was originally made for Mercedes Benz, but I have had good luck so far in all the cars I've put it in. The Camaro only has about 6500 miles on it to this point, though.

I've seen it at Napa, but some Autozones seem to have it, too. It seems like there is not a lot of regular green coolant out there now, either. The Prestone at most stores around me is the all vehicles longlife stuff, that is very similar Dexcool in its formulation.

It could have been casting sand, but some of the sludge in my S10's cooling system had a sandy sort of texture to it, too. A lot of it was brown though, but that could be from me overheating it right before I took the cooling system apart.

Make sure you do a good flush on the radiator. You wouldn't believe the amount of crap that came out of my S10 when I flushed it.

[Mark Smith]

I had the exact problem with a truck I built.it had a brand new griffen radiator and the motor was a lt1 out of a vette.since that was what was in it from the factory I thought that would be best.started having issues with water coming out the over flow tank and spraying this ugly orange sticky mess everywhere.tried draining rad. at petcock but nothing came out.ended up sticking a coat hanger in petcock hole and pulling all kinds of gooo out.from now on Ill run with water wetter.

[Tom Vogel]

FWIW... When I received my Be-Cool setup (Rad, Fans, Etc.) I called Be-Cool and asked what I should use for coolant. TheGuy I talked to emphatically said, "Use a 50/50 regular coolant and water, and dont let ANYthing else get close to one of my radiators"
Like I said...FWIW

[1969CamaroRS]

What about something like Peak coolant (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/aboutus.html)?

What I am thinking of running in my motor, maybe a 40/60 split or so.

[69LT1Nova]

Good to know. I was debating on if I should run Deathcool or the green stuff in my LT1 when I get the cooling system back together. I'll just run the regular Prestone since I don't plan on using the pressurized overflow tank.

[protour73]

I am going to try this stuff in my new system http://www.norosion.com/hyperkuhlcoolant.htm

read the FAQ's good reading about cooling systems :secret:

[BRIAN]

Since you guys never hit freezing mark? can't you run straight water with an additive for corrosion, water wetter type?? Am I wrong that actual anti freeze lowers boiling point working against you?

Evans makes nice stuff and can be had for a discount on EBAY. Nice guys and full of good technical info on the phone. Even if you do not use them they are great source of info. They have a lot of LS style specific parts and coolant kits.

[protour_chevelle]

like was mentioned by carl. I have seen SEVERAL engines that have that issue. Thankfully you caught it now. GM has had to replace several engines due to people mixing the dexcool with other product. Worst case scenario it turns into almost concrete in your water jackets.

[69LT1Nova]

Am I wrong that actual anti freeze lowers boiling point working against you?

Yes, there is a misconception here. While it is very true that water has more cooling capacity (known as thermal conductive capacitane) than antifreeze, it doesn't protect against freezing (duh) or corrosion (especially important when a galvanic reaction potential is present such as iron blocks and aluminum heads) or boiling. To offset the reduction in thermal conduction, the cooling system is put under pressure in order to increase the boiling point of the fluids (Ethylene glycol and H2O). When placed under pressure, the temperature required to boil a liquid is much greater.

Ethylene glycol has a boiling point of 197.3*C
Water has a boiling point of 100*C

Being an engineer is fun. :headbang:

[David Pozzi]

We run no more than 40% green anti-freeze on our farm fleet. Better cooling and we get enough protection for California.

[CarlC]

Basic rule of chemistry. If the boiling point of a fluid is raised then the freezing point is also lowered.

Agreed David. Using distilled water is also a must in an engine with aluminum components.

[BRIAN]

Great reading on the Evans site regarding all of the above using their products or not.

[Steve1968LS2]

Problems like yours are usually associated with some type of contamination. Air, residual green AF, etc. Dexcool needs to have a pristine operating environment and a recovery system that allows zero air into the system during purge/suck. When used in a properly designed and cleaned system, it is fantasti, but the margin of error is such that it does not lend itself well to our applications.

The standard green works very well. Just change it every two years to keep the anti-corrosion additive package healthy. 50/50 mix

Thanks... :)

Found out today that the radiator has four leaks.. and in spots they can't weld. New radiator time.

Maybe it was vibration.. no sure..

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve...........unless you thoroughly flushed that engine, prior to the Dexcool, I'll be willing to bet that there was alot of casting sand in the block and heads, from the manufacture process.

Professionally cleaned.. rinsed and cleaned again.. Dexcool was all that was ever ran in it.

But air could have gotten in.. especially from the leaks.

[Steve1968LS2]

Basic rule of chemistry. If the boiling point of a fluid is raised then the freezing point is also lowered.

Agreed David. Using distilled water is also a must in an engine with aluminum components.

So, distilled water and 40-50% green stuff?

Right?

Now that I have a new engine.. and soon a new radiator I guess it's the time to make the switch.

There's a tech story in here someplace...


And my dex-sludge was a pink grainy and sorta slimy stuff.. not like sand, but like a lumpy red/pink sludge.

[CarlC]

Yup.

Bring on the tech!

[John McIntire]

Steve, you had FOUR leaks in your radiator? How did you not notice that? I'm not being a wise *ss, but did you notice any fluid puddling, or low levels?
I ran Dex-cool in my SBC with an aluminum radiator and when I swapped it out and drained the fluid, i found the same thing as you, and if I remember right, it didn't smell to pretty either!

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve, you had FOUR leaks in your radiator? How did you not notice that? I'm not being a wise *ss, but did you notice any fluid puddling, or low levels?
I ran Dex-cool in my SBC with an aluminum radiator and when I swapped it out and drained the fluid, i found the same thing as you, and if I remember right, it didn't smell to pretty either!

VERY small leaks.. only at temp and I think higher in the radiator.

The first I thought was a leaky hose to my surge tank.. later I got one on the other side, very small. Didn't effect the cooling at at all. I figured I had one leak and that I could get it fixed when I pulled the engine.

Tiny drip, size of a quarter. tiny spray on the bottom of the hood lately.

Anyways, AFCO has one in stock and we are next day airing it out here. They don't like DexCool either and reccomend distilled water and 50% green stuff.

They also didn't seem hot on stuff like water wetter and such. Says it's hard on the aluminum. I will get more info.

[Steve1968LS2]

And yea.. it smelled pretty funky.. lol

[CarlC]

I too am not that thrilled about additives. OE aluminum radiators go about a bajillion miles when drained and flushed on a recommended schedule using standard green coolants.

Now on a track-only car where antifreeze/cooolant mixtures are not allowed, then an alternative such as Water Wetter should be considered.

[Chad-1stGen]

I wish I read this post a looooong time ago. It would of saved some aggravation on several vehicles lol.

[slowcamaro]

http://www.evanscooling.com/main20.htm

As with any coolant make sure its ok to run whereever you will be running.

[protour73]

So, distilled water and 40-50% green stuff?

Right?

Now that I have a new engine.. and soon a new radiator I guess it's the time to make the switch.

There's a tech story in here someplace...

And my dex-sludge was a pink grainy and sorta slimy stuff.. not like sand, but like a lumpy red/pink sludge.
definately a tech story here...............


People have heard that distilled water is best to use in a cooling system. That is not true, unless a mix of 50/50 antifreeze is used. While it is true that distilled water’s purity prevents electrolysis and scale/deposit formation, it comes with a potentially damaging side effect. During the distillation process, water is vaporized into it’s gaseous phase, so all impurities are left behind. These impurities include a number of minerals, including calcium and magnesium – the two components of “hardness.” The water is then condensed back into it’s liquid phase, so the resulting liquid is pure water – in fact, some of the purest water on earth. The problem is that when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.” This leaves distilled water “electrochemically hungry,” so it will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to chemically re-balance itself. As it chemically removes electrons from the cooling system metals, it does damage that will eventually lead to leaks and system failure. Using distilled water in combination with 50% antifreeze is no problem, because the distilled water will seek and find electrochemical balance from the various chemical ingredients in the antifreeze mixture





The best type of water to use as coolant is softened water – especially if you run straight water coolant, without antifreeze. During the water softening process, the same impurities and minerals are removed from water as the distillation process – but with one very important distinction. Rather than STRIPPING the impurities from water, softening EXCHANGES the impurities with a sodium ion. The resulting solution is electrochemically stable and ionically balanced, making softened water very stable, pure, and non-threatening to cooling system metals

[chicane67]

Living in SoCal... I never ran glycol coolants... only straight RO or DI water and two bottles of "Water Wetter." If I *had* to use green... I went 70/30.

DEX does not like O2... it turns to silica in no time flat and then... it likes to eat rubber hose... and anno AN fittings.

I have always installed or recommended a 'closed' system with a surge tank and double clamp everything... or AN... or wiggins if you are feeling frisky.

The Evans stuff is flamable. If you use it... make sure the system is sealed... make sure your overflow has enough capacity... ... ...and make sure it never gets around the headers.

[zbugger]

... DI water and two bottles of "Water Wetter." If I had to use green... I went 70/30...

Ditto on this one. If you're not in an area where freezing temps are normal, you can go lower on the green stuff and higher with the water.

[Flash68]

Ditto on this one. If you're not in an area where freezing temps are normal, you can go lower on the green stuff and higher with the water.

What combo do you run for Norcal weather?

[TonyL]

OMG. good stuff in here.

/Takes notes for his impending LS build.

[chicane67]

OMG. good stuff in here.

/Takes notes for his impending LS build.

Dude... how do you get enough cooling surface in that hotrod !?!!

/Me thinks evacuated hood, ahla' C6R... would be somewhat bitchen.

[TonyL]

cutting a slot behind the bumper seems to work for the other guy.
he then built a box, around the radiator and vents the air under the car through a hole in the back of the "trunk" in the front of the car. air blows out and onto the front k member. sorta.

His car runs 200 degrees. He can barely warm it up enough to kick the fans on.

the slot will look like this.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/0805phr_03_z1967_chevy_corvair-1.jpg

But the bottom one wont be as noticeable.

[Damn True]

You are going to evacuate the air beneath the front of a car that is already light on the front end? Interesting.

[TonyL]

not exactly. My car, i have something different in mind. That's what THAT guy did, his car runs 10s, pretty fast, but i imagine it gets spooky.

Mine will exit either through the hood, through some extractor, or extractors, or through vents in the side of the fenders. Im trying to figure out what'd be more "cool".

[BRIAN]

I have used the AFCO stuff and just think they are unbeatable for price and performance. Their double pass rad worked so well I actually had a problem getting the car up to temp. They also do just about any mod you want at reasonable prices such as fan temp sensor bungs or moving inlet/outlets.

Almost every antifreeze comes pre mixed now so the mix issue might not be a factor. I use the lower priced truck stuff and have never had an issue.

[MonzaRacer]

OK as for DexCool the bad ingredient is 2EHA, its a plasticizer and will soften Nylon 66(same stuff most plastic tanks/intakes,etc are made from.
It is considered an OAT or Organic Acid Technology.
G-O5 was adopted by Ford of Europe as an extended life coolant and is an Hybrid Organic Acid Technology or HOAT.
G-O5 has none of the issues from mixing nor from air or anything like DexCool.
Now for all you wonderful car builders if you spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on your car, but cheap out on coolant by going to Pep-Boys or AZ, well you get what you buy.
If I were you look at Evans Coolings NPG+ and NPG-R Non-aqeous propylene glycol, has no water in it boiling point of 375 deg F with no pressure and freeze point of -70F.
Yes its expensive but what about those $500-$??? rads? would it be worth $200 for better cooling, no corrosion possibilities, and just plain better product.
Evans Cooling phone number is 1-888-990-2665.
They pulled the NPG+ out of company employees stret rod , 7yrs old and tested perfect, put it back in.
The Evans cooling product has better nucleate boiling characteristics and and as far as my tests have proven we could never get it to cavitate.
Hey Steve if you have an aluminum rad try the rods from www.durafix.com. I got my source from local Matco dealer and THEY WORK. you can not use them on cold aluminum nor in a wind but I fixed an evaporator broke at work and patched older aluminum rad on a truck that we couldnt replace for 2 weeks, rad still holding.
And it only takes a propane torch to weld with as it melts at 370 degrees F if I remember correctly. big trick is to get area clean and use a clean stainless brush to clean the area to be repaired. once it flows out its sealed.
Steve Ill look up all the info I have from the mechanics trade mags, (or contact Motor magazine(I think it came from Motor)) and try to getit to you.
If you follow proper service on green it works, if you use long life it works, distilled water is best route on traditional EG coolants but for our hot rods NAPG is a much better product.
Heck even PG coolants work regardless of horror stories . Oh and if someone tells you new water pumps wont handle PG , let me tell you the standard carbon/boron/ceramic seals are pretty near bullet proof its the bearings going away that make pumps leak, that and no lube for the seal that keeps coolant out of bearing(as some pumps have 2 different seal setups). Just depends on manufacturer.
http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html
They even have LS pumps for sale too.

[MonzaRacer]

Non-Aqueous Cooling:

In all engines hot metal in contact with coolant causes localized boiling called nucleate boiling at critical metal temperature locations in the engine. Nucleate boiling is a very efficient way to remove heat as the heat of vaporization is so high. This boiling forms vapor which is later recondensed back into liquid when the vapor reaches the appropriate temperature. For ethylene glycol and water (EGW) systems, the recondensation of vapor takes place generally in the radiator. Since vapor by volume from a 50/50 solution of EGW is more than 98% water vapor under one atmosphere of gauge pressure (14.0 PSIG), the water will not recondense until the temperature of the coolant is below the boiling point of water at the system pressure. During moderate loads and ambient temperature conditions, that temperature is normally seen inside the radiator. As the temperature of the coolant rises under stressed conditions, that vapor does not recondense even inside the radiator. Most engine designers and test engineers are unaware that vapor is in fact being generated and recondensed continuously inside the engine cooling system.
As a result of localized boiling, there is a layer of vapor which can build up on the surface of the hot metal within the coolant jackets. That layer keeps the coolant from coming in contact with the hot metal surface. The temperature of the metal covered by the vapor pocket increases, causing a "hot spot". The hotter the spot, the more vapor produced, the larger the vapor pocket becomes, and the higher this critical metal temperature rises. These "hot spots" become so hot that they become secondary "spark plugs" or ignition points and are the cause of engine performance limitations (ignition instability) and emission problems. Thus it has been an important goal of the Evans Cooling System to reduce the vapor build-up on the hot metal surface and reduce or eliminate "hot spots".
Vapor, which is created from localized boiling, actually affects the cooling efficiency of the engine. Large amounts of vapor in the cooling system decrease the amount of liquid to metal contact throughout the cooling system, reducing the ability of the cooling system to remove heat.

In addition as the engine and cooling system is used under stressed conditions or in higher ambient temperature locations, coolant temperatures typically rise above 220° F. As EGW coolant temperatures increase above 220° F, the vapor which is generated cannot be recondensed efficiently inside the system and can be seen as cloudy coolant. Often at about 220° F the pump starts to cavitate and the flow rate of the coolant starts decreasing , increasing further the temperature of the coolant. This results in additional cavitation and the loss of coolant through overflow vents. Evans has developed computerized models of EGW cooling systems which generate vapor tables plotting this phenomenon. These theoretical vapor tables track empirical test data very accurately and are proof that vapor is constantly being generated and recondensed. The vapor tables also allow for accurate design predictions of system components size requirements identified during dynamometer testing. In examining the vapor generation it became apparent that water is the reason for such a high amount of vapor production within the engine with resultant "hot spots". Water is the cause of cavitation. Water is the reason for requiring pressurized cooling systems to elevate the acceptable operating coolant temperatures above the boiling point of water. Even so the coolant temperatures cannot exceed 224°F for pressurized water. Therefore the use of water as a coolant requires adding poisonous ethylene glycol to raise the pressurized boiling point to 250° and decrease the freezing point. Water has been found to be the reason that additives used for corrosion deplete and "fall out", causing limited coolant life. Water is also the cause of corrosion of parts inside the cooling system and in some systems the resultant accumulation of high concentrations of lead and other heavy metals in the coolant after prolonged use. The solution was to remove the water from the coolant.
In choosing the proper replacement coolant Jack Evans, the inventor, attempted to solve a number of problems: the toxicity/waste stream environmental issue, the cavitation issue, the corrosive coolant issue, the heavy metal deposit issue, the depletion of additives issue, the liquid to metal contact or "hot spot" issue and the overheat issue.
Non-Aqueous Propylene Glycol (NPG) with additives to protect metal surfaces was chosen as the replacement liquid. Because of the specific heat and specific gravity differences between NPG and EGW coolants, it is theoretically necessary to increase NPG’s coolant flow approximately 27% over that for EGW to remove equal amounts of heat from the engine. In actual application however, where current cooling systems produce significant amounts of vapor, less flow increase can provide the same, and even increased, heat rejection. Since there is no water in the system to cause cavitation of pumps, the increased speed is easily achieved. The flow can be further increased to provide even better cooling of the engine. The physics of why NPG cooling allows for higher engine performance can be best understood by looking at how the vapor is managed.
Bubble Size: The size of the bubbles formed on the hot metal surface, which then break off into the liquid, directly affect the size of the vapor buildup on the metal surface. Nucleate boiling produces bubbles, the size of which depends on a liquid characteristic known as surface tension. Lower surface tension and directly proportional cohesive characteristics produce smaller surface layer bubble sizes. NPG has lower surface tension and lower cohesive tendencies than EGW.
Another fluid characteristic which works in favor of decreasing bubble size is the difference in vapor pressure. The vapor pressure of water is 100 times that of NPG (vapor by volume from a 50/50 solution of EGW is more than 98% water vapor under one atmosphere of gauge pressure).
The more turbulent flow of the NPG system produces shear forces which tend to shear bubbles into smaller bubbles at the metal surface.
Heat of Vaporization Cal/Mole: Another characteristic, which determines the amount of vapor generated in changing a liquid to a gas when a given weight of liquid changes to a vapor, is called the Heat of Vaporization. When the heat transferred from the hot metal surface vaporizes liquid it does so according to the heat of vaporization. NPG has a heat of vaporization of 12,500 Cal/Mole compared to 9,720 for EGW. Simply stated, each vapor bubble of NPG coolant carries 29% more calories (heat) than a vapor bubble of EGW coolant. Therefore NPG generates less vapor by volume and will displace less coolant from the surface than will EGW for the same amount of heat transferred.
Reduction of "hot spots:" Obviously if the vapor bubbles condense back into liquid rapidly there is less vapor traveling through the cooling system. Less vapor means higher metal to liquid contact. The fact that NPG generates less vapor for the same heat transfer helps here also (See Below; "h Molar Heat of Vaporization:").
Compared to NPG, water vapor from the EGW condenses at a lower temperature and hence is not fully condensed until it is in the radiator. However the temperature of NPG in the cooling system is considerably below its saturation temperature (boiling point), readily condensing NPG vapor back into the liquid locally. Evans has been able to ensure that all NPG vapor generated inside the engine rapidly condenses back into liquid before the coolant leaves the engine.
Small bubble sizes assists here also as the smaller the bubble the lower the ratio of vapor volume to bubble surface area (the recondensation occurs at the liquid/gas interface, the surface of the bubble).
Reduction of "hot spots" & turbulent coolant flow: Turbulent flow of the coolant increases coolant scrubbing of the vapor from the surface of the metal, thereby improving the wetting of the metal surface by the coolant.

(http://www.evanscooling.com/html/npgben1.htm#top)Other technical considerations:
Boiling Point: 369° F for NPG versus 224° F for 50/50 "EGW" ethylene glycol and water (at atmospheric pressure - 0.0 psig) - benefits include elimination of afterboil and overheating, allowing temperature excursions above those for EGW, faster recondensation of vapor inside the engine, low (2.0 - 4.0 PSIG) or non-pressurized system, no coolant loss operating in high ambient temperatures, and the capability to increase thermostat temperature settings if desired.
Molar Heat of Vaporization: 12,500 Cals/Mole for NPG versus 9,720 Cals/Mole for EGW - benefits include faster recondensation because less vapor is produced, and a reduction of hot spots because of improved liquid to metal contact. All of which eliminate the occurrence of "Film Boiling" and the accumulation of excessive surface vapor.
Surface Tension: 35 Dynes/Cm for NPG versus 56 Dynes/Cm for EGW -- benefits include small vapor bubble sizes, allowing for faster recondensation of vapor and increased liquid to metal interface, and decreased area of nucleate boiling centers, again increasing liquid to metal interface.
Freezing Point: -70° F for NPG versus -38° F for EGW. NPG does not freeze, it crystallizes and supercools (contracts slightly and becomes a viscous slurry).
Toxicity: EGW is considered a hazardous waste whereas NPG is not as PG is used as a food additive and pharmaceutical base fluid. Vapor Pressure: 590 mm of Hg for EGW at 212° F versus 18 mm of Hg for NPG. This is the major reason for the dramatic decrease in cylinder liner and pump cavitation. Although most vehicles overheat at EGW coolant temperatures of approximately 250° F (pressurized to 13.0 psig), the non-aqueous coolant can tolerate temperatures above 350° F. Although using higher coolant temperatures can introduce other problems, (i.e.: increased oil temperatures) the NPG will allow the possibility of increasing coolant temperatures with all the resultant performance improvements as those problems are addressed and resolved. EGW is temperature constrained only by the physics of the liquid.
Over the years engineers have solved many of the problems of using EGW at the limits of its physical properties. The same can be expected to happen with NPG, allowing full use of NPG’s high boiling point. Currently, however, most all NPG conversions are operated at traditional thermostat settings (180° - 200°F) with the high temperature capabilities of NPG utilized as a "safety measure".

Important Benefits of NPG Coolant:
Reduction of Hot Spots (Critical Metal Temperatures); For Gasoline Engines: Higher Gasoline Efficiency. Reduces Emissions. Higher Compression, Power. Knock Reduction. Improved Octane Tolerance (lower octane fuel useable). For Diesel Engines: Higher Fuel Efficiency. Lower Particulate Emissions. Higher Power.Elimination of Overheat and After Boil.Elimination of Cylinder Wall and Pump Cavitation.Elimination of Corrosion on Cooling System Parts.Significant Reduction of Coolant Leaks; NPG operates at a low (i.e.; 4.0 – 7.0 PSIG ) or atmospheric pressure.Not a Hazardous or Dangerous Waste.Long Life, Stable Coolant. Increased from 40,000 (with EGW) to more than 400,000 miles. The system has been tested to 400,000 miles in a Class 8 Detroit Diesel engine running at North American Van Lines. After 400,000 miles additives have decreased by only 11%, still within initial manufacturing tolerances for the coolant.
Fleet applications: decreased maintenance requirements and costs.Secondary Benefits of NPG Coolant:
For Gasoline Engines:Non-pressurized: (or low pressure, i.e. 4.0 psig) decreased leaks, lower pressure parts, decrease of thermal flexing or cycling (component life extended), elimination of accidents resulting from accidental removal of radiator caps from hot engines.Allows for a totally closed system (Hermetically Sealed) requiring no service checks and is not subject to contamination.Improved stability of engine operating temperatures.Improved aerodynamic styling. The radiator no longer needs to be higher than the engine and can be placed anywhere.Weight reduction possible if higher coolant temperatures are used. Smaller radiators, less coolant, light-weight metals (such as magnesium for engines), small cooling jackets in the engine, smaller fans.
Decreased duty cycle of coolant fan for the same coolant temperature by allowing for higher temperature excursions for short intervals with no adverse effects on the engine.
Faster combustion chamber metal surface warm-up, CO reduced in start-up (liners get hot faster) mostly because of lower specific heat of cold NPG.
Elimination of premature spark plug failure and head cracking by better cooling of head.Reduction or elimination of pre-ignition and detonation: https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifReduce head distortion and cracking at high compression and supercharged / turbocharged boost levels. Reduce head gasket fire ring failure. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifReduce piston dome and ring failure. Reduce valve face sinking ("tuliping"). https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifReduce rod bearing failure (caused by cylinder pressure, detonation related, spikes).For Diesel Engines:Non-pressurized (or low pressure, i.e. 4.0 psig) system provides fewer leaks, lower pressure parts, decrease of thermal flexing or cycling (extended component life) and elimination of accidents resulting from accidental removal of radiator caps from hot engines.Elimination of Cylinder Liner Cavitation allowing for reduction of thickness of cylinder liners with the following benefits: Weight and critical engine dimension reduction. Better cooling of piston cylinder wall surfaces.Totally closed system requiring no service checks and no contamination.Weight reduction if higher coolant temperatures are used with smaller radiators, less coolant, smaller cooling jackets in the engine, and smaller fans.
Decreased duty cycle of coolant fan for the same coolant temperature by allowing for higher temperature excursions for short intervals with no adverse affects on the engine.
Faster combustion chamber metal surface warm up of cylinder liners & combustion domes provides lower emissions, improved gas mileage.
Eliminates frequent maintenance checks of coolant additives and subsequent adjusting of additive levels.Reduction of coolant disposal costs as no coolant needs to be replaced (limits of coolant life have not yet been found. Some vehicles have been tested up to 500,000 miles).
Thank You for taking the time to read through this text. We hope you'll consider a switch to NPG™ or our enhanced NPG+ (http://www.evanscooling.com/html/npgPls.htm)™ as your engine coolant. Please feel free to contact us with questions regarding you specific application or needs, personal or OEM, using the information available to you in our contact page (http://www.evanscooling.com/html/contact1.htm).

[MonzaRacer]

Non-Aqueous Cooling:

In all engines hot metal in contact with coolant causes localized boiling called nucleate boiling at critical metal temperature locations in the engine. Nucleate boiling is a very efficient way to remove heat as the heat of vaporization is so high. This boiling forms vapor which is later recondensed back into liquid when the vapor reaches the appropriate temperature. For ethylene glycol and water (EGW) systems, the recondensation of vapor takes place generally in the radiator. Since vapor by volume from a 50/50 solution of EGW is more than 98% water vapor under one atmosphere of gauge pressure (14.0 PSIG), the water will not recondense until the temperature of the coolant is below the boiling point of water at the system pressure. During moderate loads and ambient temperature conditions, that temperature is normally seen inside the radiator. As the temperature of the coolant rises under stressed conditions, that vapor does not recondense even inside the radiator. Most engine designers and test engineers are unaware that vapor is in fact being generated and recondensed continuously inside the engine cooling system.
As a result of localized boiling, there is a layer of vapor which can build up on the surface of the hot metal within the coolant jackets. That layer keeps the coolant from coming in contact with the hot metal surface. The temperature of the metal covered by the vapor pocket increases, causing a "hot spot". The hotter the spot, the more vapor produced, the larger the vapor pocket becomes, and the higher this critical metal temperature rises. These "hot spots" become so hot that they become secondary "spark plugs" or ignition points and are the cause of engine performance limitations (ignition instability) and emission problems. Thus it has been an important goal of the Evans Cooling System to reduce the vapor build-up on the hot metal surface and reduce or eliminate "hot spots".
Vapor, which is created from localized boiling, actually affects the cooling efficiency of the engine. Large amounts of vapor in the cooling system decrease the amount of liquid to metal contact throughout the cooling system, reducing the ability of the cooling system to remove heat.

In addition as the engine and cooling system is used under stressed conditions or in higher ambient temperature locations, coolant temperatures typically rise above 220° F. As EGW coolant temperatures increase above 220° F, the vapor which is generated cannot be recondensed efficiently inside the system and can be seen as cloudy coolant. Often at about 220° F the pump starts to cavitate and the flow rate of the coolant starts decreasing , increasing further the temperature of the coolant. This results in additional cavitation and the loss of coolant through overflow vents. Evans has developed computerized models of EGW cooling systems which generate vapor tables plotting this phenomenon. These theoretical vapor tables track empirical test data very accurately and are proof that vapor is constantly being generated and recondensed. The vapor tables also allow for accurate design predictions of system components size requirements identified during dynamometer testing. In examining the vapor generation it became apparent that water is the reason for such a high amount of vapor production within the engine with resultant "hot spots". Water is the cause of cavitation. Water is the reason for requiring pressurized cooling systems to elevate the acceptable operating coolant temperatures above the boiling point of water. Even so the coolant temperatures cannot exceed 224°F for pressurized water. Therefore the use of water as a coolant requires adding poisonous ethylene glycol to raise the pressurized boiling point to 250° and decrease the freezing point. Water has been found to be the reason that additives used for corrosion deplete and "fall out", causing limited coolant life. Water is also the cause of corrosion of parts inside the cooling system and in some systems the resultant accumulation of high concentrations of lead and other heavy metals in the coolant after prolonged use. The solution was to remove the water from the coolant.
In choosing the proper replacement coolant Jack Evans, the inventor, attempted to solve a number of problems: the toxicity/waste stream environmental issue, the cavitation issue, the corrosive coolant issue, the heavy metal deposit issue, the depletion of additives issue, the liquid to metal contact or "hot spot" issue and the overheat issue.
Non-Aqueous Propylene Glycol (NPG) with additives to protect metal surfaces was chosen as the replacement liquid. Because of the specific heat and specific gravity differences between NPG and EGW coolants, it is theoretically necessary to increase NPG’s coolant flow approximately 27% over that for EGW to remove equal amounts of heat from the engine. In actual application however, where current cooling systems produce significant amounts of vapor, less flow increase can provide the same, and even increased, heat rejection. Since there is no water in the system to cause cavitation of pumps, the increased speed is easily achieved. The flow can be further increased to provide even better cooling of the engine. The physics of why NPG cooling allows for higher engine performance can be best understood by looking at how the vapor is managed.
Bubble Size: The size of the bubbles formed on the hot metal surface, which then break off into the liquid, directly affect the size of the vapor buildup on the metal surface. Nucleate boiling produces bubbles, the size of which depends on a liquid characteristic known as surface tension. Lower surface tension and directly proportional cohesive characteristics produce smaller surface layer bubble sizes. NPG has lower surface tension and lower cohesive tendencies than EGW.
Another fluid characteristic which works in favor of decreasing bubble size is the difference in vapor pressure. The vapor pressure of water is 100 times that of NPG (vapor by volume from a 50/50 solution of EGW is more than 98% water vapor under one atmosphere of gauge pressure).
The more turbulent flow of the NPG system produces shear forces which tend to shear bubbles into smaller bubbles at the metal surface.
Heat of Vaporization Cal/Mole: Another characteristic, which determines the amount of vapor generated in changing a liquid to a gas when a given weight of liquid changes to a vapor, is called the Heat of Vaporization. When the heat transferred from the hot metal surface vaporizes liquid it does so according to the heat of vaporization. NPG has a heat of vaporization of 12,500 Cal/Mole compared to 9,720 for EGW. Simply stated, each vapor bubble of NPG coolant carries 29% more calories (heat) than a vapor bubble of EGW coolant. Therefore NPG generates less vapor by volume and will displace less coolant from the surface than will EGW for the same amount of heat transferred.
Reduction of "hot spots:" Obviously if the vapor bubbles condense back into liquid rapidly there is less vapor traveling through the cooling system. Less vapor means higher metal to liquid contact. The fact that NPG generates less vapor for the same heat transfer helps here also (See Below; "h Molar Heat of Vaporization:").
Compared to NPG, water vapor from the EGW condenses at a lower temperature and hence is not fully condensed until it is in the radiator. However the temperature of NPG in the cooling system is considerably below its saturation temperature (boiling point), readily condensing NPG vapor back into the liquid locally. Evans has been able to ensure that all NPG vapor generated inside the engine rapidly condenses back into liquid before the coolant leaves the engine.
Small bubble sizes assists here also as the smaller the bubble the lower the ratio of vapor volume to bubble surface area (the recondensation occurs at the liquid/gas interface, the surface of the bubble).
Reduction of "hot spots" & turbulent coolant flow: Turbulent flow of the coolant increases coolant scrubbing of the vapor from the surface of the metal, thereby improving the wetting of the metal surface by the coolant.

(http://www.evanscooling.com/html/npgben1.htm#top)Other technical considerations:
Boiling Point: 369° F for NPG versus 224° F for 50/50 "EGW" ethylene glycol and water (at atmospheric pressure - 0.0 psig) - benefits include elimination of afterboil and overheating, allowing temperature excursions above those for EGW, faster recondensation of vapor inside the engine, low (2.0 - 4.0 PSIG) or non-pressurized system, no coolant loss operating in high ambient temperatures, and the capability to increase thermostat temperature settings if desired.
Molar Heat of Vaporization: 12,500 Cals/Mole for NPG versus 9,720 Cals/Mole for EGW - benefits include faster recondensation because less vapor is produced, and a reduction of hot spots because of improved liquid to metal contact. All of which eliminate the occurrence of "Film Boiling" and the accumulation of excessive surface vapor.
Surface Tension: 35 Dynes/Cm for NPG versus 56 Dynes/Cm for EGW -- benefits include small vapor bubble sizes, allowing for faster recondensation of vapor and increased liquid to metal interface, and decreased area of nucleate boiling centers, again increasing liquid to metal interface.
Freezing Point: -70° F for NPG versus -38° F for EGW. NPG does not freeze, it crystallizes and supercools (contracts slightly and becomes a viscous slurry).
Toxicity: EGW is considered a hazardous waste whereas NPG is not as PG is used as a food additive and pharmaceutical base fluid. Vapor Pressure: 590 mm of Hg for EGW at 212° F versus 18 mm of Hg for NPG. This is the major reason for the dramatic decrease in cylinder liner and pump cavitation. Although most vehicles overheat at EGW coolant temperatures of approximately 250° F (pressurized to 13.0 psig), the non-aqueous coolant can tolerate temperatures above 350° F. Although using higher coolant temperatures can introduce other problems, (i.e.: increased oil temperatures) the NPG will allow the possibility of increasing coolant temperatures with all the resultant performance improvements as those problems are addressed and resolved. EGW is temperature constrained only by the physics of the liquid.
Over the years engineers have solved many of the problems of using EGW at the limits of its physical properties. The same can be expected to happen with NPG, allowing full use of NPG’s high boiling point. Currently, however, most all NPG conversions are operated at traditional thermostat settings (180° - 200°F) with the high temperature capabilities of NPG utilized as a "safety measure".

Important Benefits of NPG Coolant:
Reduction of Hot Spots (Critical Metal Temperatures); For Gasoline Engines: Higher Gasoline Efficiency. Reduces Emissions. Higher Compression, Power. Knock Reduction. Improved Octane Tolerance (lower octane fuel useable). For Diesel Engines: Higher Fuel Efficiency. Lower Particulate Emissions. Higher Power.Elimination of Overheat and After Boil.Elimination of Cylinder Wall and Pump Cavitation.Elimination of Corrosion on Cooling System Parts.Significant Reduction of Coolant Leaks; NPG operates at a low (i.e.; 4.0 – 7.0 PSIG ) or atmospheric pressure.Not a Hazardous or Dangerous Waste.Long Life, Stable Coolant. Increased from 40,000 (with EGW) to more than 400,000 miles. The system has been tested to 400,000 miles in a Class 8 Detroit Diesel engine running at North American Van Lines. After 400,000 miles additives have decreased by only 11%, still within initial manufacturing tolerances for the coolant.
Fleet applications: decreased maintenance requirements and costs.Secondary Benefits of NPG Coolant:
For Gasoline Engines:Non-pressurized: (or low pressure, i.e. 4.0 psig) decreased leaks, lower pressure parts, decrease of thermal flexing or cycling (component life extended), elimination of accidents resulting from accidental removal of radiator caps from hot engines.Allows for a totally closed system (Hermetically Sealed) requiring no service checks and is not subject to contamination.Improved stability of engine operating temperatures.Improved aerodynamic styling. The radiator no longer needs to be higher than the engine and can be placed anywhere.Weight reduction possible if higher coolant temperatures are used. Smaller radiators, less coolant, light-weight metals (such as magnesium for engines), small cooling jackets in the engine, smaller fans.
Decreased duty cycle of coolant fan for the same coolant temperature by allowing for higher temperature excursions for short intervals with no adverse effects on the engine.
Faster combustion chamber metal surface warm-up, CO reduced in start-up (liners get hot faster) mostly because of lower specific heat of cold NPG.
Elimination of premature spark plug failure and head cracking by better cooling of head.Reduction or elimination of pre-ignition and detonation: https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifReduce head distortion and cracking at high compression and supercharged / turbocharged boost levels. Reduce head gasket fire ring failure. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifReduce piston dome and ring failure. Reduce valve face sinking ("tuliping"). https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifReduce rod bearing failure (caused by cylinder pressure, detonation related, spikes).For Diesel Engines:Non-pressurized (or low pressure, i.e. 4.0 psig) system provides fewer leaks, lower pressure parts, decrease of thermal flexing or cycling (extended component life) and elimination of accidents resulting from accidental removal of radiator caps from hot engines.Elimination of Cylinder Liner Cavitation allowing for reduction of thickness of cylinder liners with the following benefits: Weight and critical engine dimension reduction. Better cooling of piston cylinder wall surfaces.Totally closed system requiring no service checks and no contamination.Weight reduction if higher coolant temperatures are used with smaller radiators, less coolant, smaller cooling jackets in the engine, and smaller fans.
Decreased duty cycle of coolant fan for the same coolant temperature by allowing for higher temperature excursions for short intervals with no adverse affects on the engine.
Faster combustion chamber metal surface warm up of cylinder liners & combustion domes provides lower emissions, improved gas mileage.
Eliminates frequent maintenance checks of coolant additives and subsequent adjusting of additive levels.Reduction of coolant disposal costs as no coolant needs to be replaced (limits of coolant life have not yet been found. Some vehicles have been tested up to 500,000 miles).
Thank You for taking the time to read through this text. We hope you'll consider a switch to NPG™ or our enhanced NPG+ (http://www.evanscooling.com/html/npgPls.htm)™ as your engine coolant. Please feel free to contact us with questions regarding you specific application or needs, personal or OEM, using the information available to you in our contact page (http://www.evanscooling.com/html/contact1.htm).

[MonzaRacer]

ooppss

[badazz81z28]

Gents,

What brand do you all use? I see the Prestone Brand no longer has the Green? Looks only Yellow Extended Life....

[MonzaRacer]

Gents,

What brand do you all use? I see the Prestone Brand no longer has the Green? Looks only Yellow Extended Life....
IF you MUST use a non Dex-cool coolant, and stay with EG type got find your self several gallons of the G-05 Ford spec coolant. MIX it to retain the proper freezepoint/boil point if so needed.
A drain in spring on daily driven cars, slap in new stat and top of with fresh. Your done and it gets some new stuff to help out.
Limited use drivers, I STILL love Evanscooling.com
NPG+ 375deg boiling point with no pressure, at 40 it simply turns to slush till heat gets to it then it re-liquefies.
As for flammability, PUH LEASE. ALL Glycols are flammable with heat/flame.
IF IT DOESNT BOIL TILL 375 THEN IT SURE CANT GET BURN TILL IT HITS MUCH HIGHER!
Gee whiz, just had a guy I turned on to Evans NPG+, he drove 1400 miles with bb hole in his rad and simple epoxy putty on it.
Car never got hot, never had cap on for total time he drove it, temps rock solid.
He gets home, pulls rad out and decides since local shop wanted to sell new rad he would try to fix it, ordered some dura-fix rods, bought a propane torch and got putty off. small wire brush and he warms it up, rubs some of dura-fix rod on and its done,,,,. Pressurized to 50 psi no leaks again.
Reinstalled it and took it out to cruise again,,,car was acting weird, temps never quite right, first little high then little low.
So he starts to pull rad out thinking he stopped it up or something.
Sees one little drip on top of his balancer.
Pulled waterpump off and come to find out it had snapped shaft between inner and out bearings. He had it apart to show me and the shaft ends were polished like mirrors from rubbing each other.
Machine shop locally said they could make new shaft for it as it turned out to be a rebuildable unit, common seals/bearings, just needed few grooves in shaft for snap rings.
They said it was made too hard and for it to be polished as such it had to run for quite a while that way.
He is wondering HOW it ran as long as it did. But to test theory he made a pipe to go across the block and tried driving it,,,temps kept same odd gyration,,,,, with no pump what so ever.
BUT it never over heated,,and he had laptop with datalogging in mant spots on engine like when he first built and tuned it. Temp sensors between exh ports, in freeze plugs.
Turns out his car lucked out and with system parts it sort of got it self moving from hot to cold. It circulated somewhat without pump,,,keep forgetting the term for that, well that will bug me for days.
Cant remember terminology but engine is still together and running fine, he is just waiting on a seal then will test drive it.



But honestly, all antifreeze is flammable so no trying to put your house or car out with it. Propylene Glycol is no more flammable than ethylene glycol. Ask my friend in junkyard,,,he tried to put fire under a car out he had started with torch,,,,,car got little hot under collar and he then knew NOT to use old antifreeze (this was back in day before Dex-crud) as extinguisher.

OH yeah, NEVER get this new stuff on your hands and then in/near your mouth in ANY amount! one its poison, two it has a bittering agent that even in tiniest amount will make you gag and dry heave at best,,,or heave at worst.