Taking the plunge: LS3 into '64 Tempest. Need help with shopping list.

[b-man]

Why do you need a PCM & an ECM?You know, I just assumed the smaller unit with the blue connector was a PCM. I do know the unit with the 3 black connectors is the ECM.

I know very little about the electronics I bought, but I do know that Speartech provided the correct calibration for my stock LS3 with headers, for cruise control operation, to regulate the cooling fans and to lock up the converter.

This is all new to me. I'm used to working on old cars with iron V8s, carbs and points distributors.

EDIT: I fiixed my posts to correctly ID the TCM. ;)

[b-man]

Today I was looking for a good place to mount my transmission cooler. The air conditioning condensor takes up the space in front of the radiator where I was first thinking of putting it. There is not enough room up front anywhere behind the bumper.

I am considering mounting it to the passenger side frame rail and to the two floor pan braces just above it. It will go directly behind the body mount brace just underneath the passenger seat.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSC03009-1.jpg

There is plenty of clearance between the exhaust system and the cooler, the X-crossover is directly across from it so the hot exhaust pipes will be as far away from it as would be possible. I can run the 3/8" steel cooler lines going across to the trans just above the trans crossmember to keep the heat transfer from the hot exhaust minimized as much as possible.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSC03007-1.jpg

Does anyone see a problem with this approach? With the car moving down the road at normal traffic speeds I would think there should be plenty of airflow.

Would stones or road debris kicked up by the right front tire tend to damage it? The B&M Supercooler I'll be using is a plate-type design that is more resistant to impacts than the tube & fin-type coolers. It's not like there are a bunch of stone chips on the bottom of the floorpans already.

I know that cast aluminum framerail mounted coolers are available, but they don't look like they would cool nearly as well as the plate type cooler I have.

Any helpful input would be appreciated. :)

[andrewb70]

Why do you need a PCM & an ECM?

I think one is the transmission controller.

Hey Bart, how about the 19 row Earl's cooler that I have for sale? It would work great for a transmission cooler.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58764&highlight=coolers

Andrew

[Krazed]

Bandwidth exceeded. :crying:

Maybe it's time to upgrade that photobucket! Its worth it once you hit the limit, and not much a year.

[cdoggy81]

"Hey Bart, how about the 19 row Earl's cooler that I have for sale?"

Can you explain how this would help his situation? Is it smaller, more efficient, or ???

[gearbanger]

I think it is actually the "TCM" instead of the "PCM". The ECM is the engine control module and the smaller one it the TCM transmission control module. At least that is what they called it on the Trailblazer SS.

[gearbanger]

Whoops....you already fixed it Bart!

[b-man]

.....for mounting the trans cooler.

I will mount it up front instead of taking the easy way out and mounting it under the car on the frame where it really won't do a good job and could end up damaged. I had to be reminded that there is a lot of hot air expelled underneath the car from the radiator, engine block and exhaust system.

The one I have is just too a little too big to fit behind the front bumper in front of the radiator and condensor, so I'll just downsize the cooler and get one about half the size so I can put it up front where it really needs to go. The 4L70E overdrive trans with the lockup converter shouldn't put out quite as much heat as one with a non-lockup converter that will by design slip at least a little 100% of the time.

You can see the top of the cooler here, it is 1-1/2" thick and there is only a 2-1/2" space for it. On the left it's just touching the condenser at the bottom corner, it has to follow the angle of the front bumper and grilles in order to fit.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSC03010-1.jpg

This cooler is 10" wide (as mounted here) including the mounting flanges and has an 8" core width. I will replace it with one of the same design that is 5-3/4" wide with a 3-3/4" core, it will also be 1-1/2" thick like the larger one:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70273/

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSC03011-1.jpg

Should get some pretty decent airflow here and not block too much airflow to the condensor and radiator.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSC03012-1.jpg

It will mount the same as the trans cooler I have on my GTO shown here, but of course it will only be about half as wide. Plumbing will be done using 3/8" steel hard lines with inverted flare fittings (no rubber hose) like the GTO as well.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/1964GTOfuellinesrearend062-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/1964GTO3inchexhaust038-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/1964GTO3inchexhaust037-1.jpg

Thanks for all the help and suggestions guys, much appreciated. :cool:

[Motown 454]

Nice progress it looks like a good fit under the dash.

[b-man]

.....for you guys who know your automotive electrical systems.

I'm running some 4th-gen F-body fans, they're an OEM replacement made by Dorman (P/N 620634).

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/DSC02719-1.jpg

Would these require the use of two 30 amp relays or two 40 amp ones? I have two Bosch 30 amp relays (0 332 019 150) here that I might be able to use.

My custom Speartech wiring harness already has provisions for computer control of the fan relays, the loop of pink-dark green-dark blue relay control wires are shown at the bottom of this pic:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSC02982-1.jpg

Where would you recommend that I source the relay plugs and harnesses from, or some new relays if I need to buy some?

Would also be nice to find the OEM connectors that plug into the fan motors.

Any help you can offer on this would be very much appreciated.

Bart

[Jon69RagTop]

http://www.madelectrical.com/

He'll set you up with new relays, and teach you a ton about setting up your electricals>

[b-man]

.....for my twin trans coolers.

They tuck right behind the bumper way down low, the top half of the coolers will be exposed to fresh air coming in from the slot in the bumper.

After removing the front bumper this is what I have to work with.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03014-1.jpg

Both coolers are mounted to a piece of 1" wide X 3/16" thick X 29" long mild steel bar. The bar mounts to a pair 1-3/4" long standoffs (spacers), the bar is about 3/8" from the front of the condensor fins. I was able to use two existing 1/4" holes in the core support to mount it, worked out just perfect!

Down below I still need to fab up a pair of lower support brackets from the same mild steel bar, they will bolt to the two lower 3/8" studs that mount the hood latch support in the center and two exisiting 3/8" holes at the bottom corners of the core support channel.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03015-1.jpg

I used a large 1/2 NPT run tee at the top outlet of the second cooler so I could install a trans temp sender for the Autometer trans temp gauge. This should give me a pretty good temperature reading of the cooled fluid before it heads back to the transmission.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03016-1.jpg

A shot of the 3/8" tube loop that connects the outlet of the first cooler to the inlet of the second cooler. There's plenty of clearance between the tubing loop and the hood latch lever so I won't burn my fingers on the hot tubing. All of the tube fittings are brass inverted flare, already proven to be reliable by the OEMs.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03017-1.jpg

None of the brass fittings or the tube loop can be seen with the bumper and grilles in place, the rest of the cooler plumbing will be hidden behind the bumper as well.

Tomorrow I hope to finish up the plumbing on both coolers and the lower mounting brackets.

Thanks for looking. :)

[b-man]

.....on the twin-trans cooler installation today.

I put the front bumper back on and adjusted it as closely as I could to where it will be on the finished car. After checking the clearance between the coolers and the bumper I found they needed to be shifted upward by one inch. This puts the top of the cooler fins right at the top of bumper slot, a little bit more ideal for catching cooling air and adding some much needed clearance at the bottom of the coolers to the bumper.

I put the driver's side grille in to check for clearance too. The brass fittings and tubing are hidden from view in the grille area.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03018-1.jpg

With the bumper removed again and the various component clearances confirmed it was time to bend up some 3/8" steel hard lines.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03019-1.jpg

There was a small 'window' of space for both of the cooler lines to pass through the core support at the bottom corner.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03022-1.jpg

Both lines terminate a few inches past the core support, the 3/8" inverted flare unions were staggered to make it a little easier to swing a line wrench on them. I bent the lines so as to leave access to the hole in the frame for the front bumper bolt.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03021-1.jpg

I still need to make up the bottom support brackets, but I did manage to get all of the plumbing finished on the front end.

Hope everyone had a great Labor Day weekend! :)

[Justintt]

Looking good b-man. Have always loved the look of your 64.

[a73formula]

Looking awesome. I spend most of my time over here intstead of PY for your same reasons. Pontiacs are my favorites though, but if I was doing a build like yours I'd go the same route. Love the early a bodies.

[b-man]

Thanks guys for the kind words, it really helps me to keep on this thing and not let up on it for too long. :machine:

I pulled the trans out today so I can make up more of the cooling lines.

There will be zero access to the cooling line fittings on the side of the trans with it installed, so I need to make up some short lines that will be considered part of the complete transmission assembly before it gets installed for the final time.

Here's what I have to work with. The 90-degree inverted flare fittings are the key to making this work. The fittings have 1/4 NPT threads but the trans is made for a straight thread fitting.

The thread diameter and pitch is the same for both, but the pipe thread is tapered to make it seal. Before installing the fittings I used a 1/4 pipe tap to try to taper the last couple of threads in an attempt to help out with the sealing for whatever it's worth, I used a little teflon paste on the threads and got 'em good and tight.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03032-1.jpg

A shot of the finished 3/8" steel lines before installation.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03035-1.jpg

Lines are now installed. I had to run them towards the rear then down and forward because there's no room to run them forward right off the fittings, the trans dipstick tube will be in the way.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03036-1.jpg

The trans wiring needs to travel right next to the lines and right around the circular servo casting projection before it plugs into the large connector (just to the left of the lines in the above pic), everything is a tight fit in the trans tunnel. Rather than bash the trans tunnel out another inch or two for clearance, I packaged it all tightly to keep the tunnel as small as possible so my stock rubber interior flooring will still work.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03034-1.jpg

Shot from the bottom where the lines terminate underneath the bellhousing. After the trans goes back in and the headers and starter motor are installed on the engine I can make up the 2 lines that will connect the front twin cooler lines to these short trans lines.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/DSC03037-1.jpg

The weather was beautiful today in the mid to low 80s, so I took advantage of that.

Gotta keep moving on this. :)

[Motown 454]

It looks good, nice work. Tucked up nice and tight.

[cspecken]

Hi I really like your build. I have several 60's Pontiac's (64-74), mostly GTO's. I wanted to know if you had looked into purchasing an after market chassis that was already completed. I have been looking at the offerings that Street Rod Garage has (http://www.streetrodgarage.com/). Can you give a brake down on the suspension mods you have purchased for your Poncho and the cost? I live in California so I do not have rust issues to deal with. But if the mods you have are the same as the price of a rolling chassis then in may be feasible to go that route.


Thanks, Chris

[b-man]

Hi I really like your build. I have several 60's Pontiac's (64-74), mostly GTO's. I wanted to know if you had looked into purchasing an after market chassis that was already completed. I have been looking at the offerings that Street Rod Garage has (http://www.streetrodgarage.com/). Can you give a brake down on the suspension mods you have purchased for your Poncho and the cost? I live in California so I do not have rust issues to deal with. But if the mods you have are the same as the price of a rolling chassis then in may be feasible to go that route.


Thanks, ChrisChris,

To be honest not even once did I consider putting an aftermarket frame underneath my car. The suspension mods I'm doing were not really even planned for at the beginning of this build. Since this car is mostly just a good-handling and stopping canyon cruiser and won't be used on the track, the stock somewhat flexible A-body frame will get by just fine.

I'm trying to keep this car as original as I can but still get in as many modern upgrades as possible within my (ever expanding :)) budget, if that doesn't sound too silly. Incorporating some nice bolt-ons is all I ever wanted to do with this car.

Here's a cost listing of the various chassis and driveline componets, some of these parts can't be bought for the same prices now:

C6 Z06 front brake kit - $1136.50

C6 Z06 rear brake kit with internal parking brake - $1759.00

Lokar parking brake cables and hardware - $175.00

SPC front upper control arms - $340.00

SPC front lower control arms - $548.00

Cast aluminum lower spring seats and shim kit (ride height adjustment) - $58.00

Progressive Rate Jounce Bumpers - $26.90

ATS AFX forged aluminum spindles (less hubs) - $585.00

ATS billet aluminum A-body steering arms - $215.00

SKF racing hubs - $760.00

Moog upper ball joints - $50.00

Moog outer tierod ends - $70.00

H-O Racing Specialties front springs - $0 (20+ years old with 40K miles on them)

Currie Currectrac adjustable upper rear control arms - $299.95

Currie Currectrac lower rear control arms - $389.95

Global West S-60 rear springs - $60.00 (unused new parts from private party, $125.99 retail)

Hotchkis rear mounting braces - freebie https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif ($145.95 retail)

Pro-built 8.5 corporate 3.42 posi rear end complete - $1734.00

O.Z. Racing Ultraleggera 18x9" wheels - $358.00 X 5 (spare wheel included) = $1790.00

5 new tires - $660.00

Front wheel adapters - $125.00

Bilstein shocks - $300.00

Energy Suspension polyurethane body to frame mounts - $120.00

That's covers most of it, add in about 500 dollars or so for shipping all of this stuff.

[b-man]

.....today, my starter won't fit!

Today I was test fitting some things. I put both headers on the engine, at first leaving them loose to help make room to slip the transmission in place between the header collectors. The engine must be tilted forward slightly from it's 'normal' position so the headers will slip into place.

Next I mated up the transmission so I could finish up making my trans cooling lines. The engine must be tilted rearward slightly from 'normal' to mate up the trans, by leaving the 2 engine mount through bolts loose and supporting the engine under the oil pan with a block of wood it's easily done using one of my floorjacks.

With the trans now installed I tried to install the starter and there's absolutely no way to get it in there. :machine:

I loosened up the passenger side header and was able to pull it about 1" to the side to try to gain some room, I pulled it as far as it would go because at that point it was resting against the inside of the frame.

After taking a look at things I thought that maybe my Autokraft pan with the side kickouts could be the possible culprit. However I had test fitted the starter previously without the headers in place and it went in fine, although the access to the inside mounting bolt was limited a little by the kickout and I needed to use a flexible extension to get to it.

The way these headers are designed limits access to the outside starter bolt as well. Not that having limited access to that outside bolt makes much difference, I can't even get the starter in there!

The pan kickout is 1-3/8" wide from the side wall of the pan sump itself, but only extends 1/2" past the pan rail on the block:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03070-1.jpg

Promotional pics of the Autokraft pan to help add some perspective:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/Autokraftcamaropan-1.jpg

Milodon 30915 pan that is recommended (but not required) by Edelbrock for use with their engine mount adapter plates that I'm using. The Edelbrock swap headers do mention they highly recommend that they be used with their engine mount adapter plates, but they don't go so far as to tell you which oil pan to use in their header installation instructions.

Note the very similar kickouts on this Milodon pan as compared to the Autokraft pan, I seriously doubt my starter would go in using this pan versus the Autokraft pan:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/124115d1205786237lsxoilpansp317-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/124116d1205786237lsxoilpansp317-1.jpg

No way is this starter going in, in this shot the starter solenoid is right up against the front crossmember:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03071-1.jpg

Not a lot of room here, keep in mind this shot was taken with the headers loosened up and pulled outward against the frame rail:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03074-1.jpg

Well, I was determined to get that starter in there as I have a lot of money invested in my headers and oil pan. I figured that it might go in if I pulled the trans out, it has to come out right now anyway so I can reconfigure the cooling lines coming out of it.

It fits:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03077-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03078-1.jpg

Unfortunately in order to service the starter in the future I will have to take following steps:

1) Drop the 3" X-crossover exhaust between the header collectors and the mufflers.

2) Loosen the passenger side header and pull it against the frame.

3) Remove the driveshaft.

4) Disconnect the trans cooling lines at the trans.

5) Disconnect the Speartech wiring harness on the trans (2 connectors - VSS and trans control) and the passenger side of the engine (3 connectors - crank sensor, knock sensor, O2 sensor + 1 ground lug on back of the cyl head) and pull the harness up out of the way and lay it on top of the engine.

6) Remove the top 2 engine to trans bolts.

7) Disconnect the torque converter from the flexplate.

8) Loosen the two long 7/16-14 engine mount bolts.

9) Support the trans with a trans jack and remove the trans crossmember. Tilt the engine and trans rearward slightly for access to the bottom 4 engine to trans bolts and to gain enough clearance at the firewall to pull the trans off the engine.

10) Support the engine under the oil pan with a floor jack and block of wood while separating the trans from the engine.

11) Remove starter after disconnecting the starter wires and cable.

I'm seriously thinking of running '01 -'02 F-body LS1 exhaust manifolds now. I'll probably take a 30+ HP hit though, but it might be worth it. One of the header tubes is less than 1/4" from from the starter motor with them tightened down.

However I really want to have the added power that the headers will unleash. :smoke:

I'm guessing that the guys running manual transmissions haven't run into this issue. I do realize that the '64 -'67 A-body swap headers differ in design compared to the '68 -'72, maybe the early cars are the only victims of this issue.

Well anyway, I did find time after scratching my head half the day dealing with this starter nonsense to do a little work on the trans lines.

I knew that my first try with the cooling lines would be a bit of shot in the dark. Now that I have everything in place (trans, headers, starter) I could see they aren't going to work as-is.

I cut them off shorter and redid a couple of the bends:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03079-1.jpg

The trans is now back in the car, tomorrow I'm hoping to make up some lines to connect the trans lines coming off the trans with the ones coming off the front mounted trans coolers.

Thanks for looking, and for any helpful advice you can offer.

[LSXZ28]

I'd keep the headers for sure! The starter should last for years without needing replaced... save your step-by-step procedure above and hope you don't need it LOL!

[b-man]

.....this weekend despite my troubles and disappointment with the starter motor access.

The one thing I really wanted to get done this weekend was to make up the rest of the transmission cooling lines. I dropped by my local NAPA and picked up a couple more 60" pre-made lengths of 3/8" steel brake line this morning while doing my weekly food shopping.

I started out making up the lower line that will return the cooled fluid to the transmission, starting at the trans since this looked like the easier tubing route to start out with.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03082-1.jpg

I continued working towards the front and made up the final connection. Bending up this first line took the better part of 2 hours, it takes a bit of time to remove and replace the line over and over along with making some minor adjustments of the bends to get things fitting just right. The steel tubing is soft enough that you can tweak it a little by hand to make minor adjustments, you certainly will end up making a lot of small adjustments before it's right.

I used all 60" of the line except for the last 1/2", I had to cut off that last little bit in order to make the last bend in the line as the flare nut would have been in the way of the tubing bender itself. After making the last bend I double flared the end. Making sure to put the flare nut on the line before making up the flare is something that's easy to forget to do sometimes!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03080-1.jpg

Using some short scraps of tubing I made up a pattern to follow to get started. You can't easily manipulate the "60 long line with all of the obstacles in the way, using scraps like this helps you avoid mistakes that will scrap out the longer line you're trying to work with.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03083-1.jpg

Here's the second line that brings the hot trans fluid from the converter to the coolers almost halfway finished.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03084-1.jpg

Bending up the second line will go twice as fast as the first one since I now have a full-length pattern to follow. I'm just about to make the second to last bend here.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03085-1.jpg

Again I had to cut off the flare to get the flare nut out of the way in order to make the the last bend and terminate this one at the trans. I cut off about 1/4" of line which puts the tubing cutter as close to the old flare as possible. The line on the top shown here is the second one I made up.

I just barely had enough tubing length to make up these lines, everything worked out well for me today. I did rethink the routing of the lines a little halfway through making up the first one and eliminated one bend near the front in order to conserve some line length, I could see that I was close to not having enough.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03089-1.jpg

I still need to fasten the lines down in a couple of places using some 3/8" Adel clamps, I did my best to make them run parallel to one another. Without the fender on the car it makes little sense to fasten them down, the inner fender will move a little from where it is now with the fender installed.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03086-1.jpg

Plenty of room between the lines and the header tubes, both lines can easily be removed from the topside without having to tweak them.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03087-1.jpg

Finished for the weekend. :cool:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03090-1.jpg

Thanks for looking. :)

[b-man]

.....for a while today and made some decent progress.
I removed the old master, it's a 1-1/16" bore 2nd-gen F-body disc/drum manual brake unit that worked very well with the single-piston B-body calipers. I'm replacing it with a 15/16" bore 1977 Monte Carlo or Malibu disc/drum manual master that comes complete with the pushrod, a $35 item with an $11 core charge (pictured below in the foreground). That's right, no power brakes.
Of interest is the two masters are configured backward from one another. The F-body master has the front brake reservior in front, the Monte master has the front brake reservior located in the rear. This means I will have to remake the lines from the master to the combination valve.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03091-1.jpg
I was able to use the old 1964 Tempest single-master pushrod with the F-body master. For reference I measured from the mounting surface of the master to the center of the pushrod pivot pin, it looks to be right about 6".
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03092-1.jpg
The new Monte Carlo master pushrod won't be quite long enough nor will it fit up to my brake pedal. It fits deep into the piston, by about an inch unlike the F-body master.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03093-1.jpg
I will cut the new pushrod off at the cut line shown and thread it with a 3/8-24 die so it will screw in to the original Tempest brake pushrod clevis. It's just long enough to work.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03094-1.jpg
I will reuse the 2nd-gen F-body combination block and mounting bracket, the bracket has been slightly modified by bending the mounting tabs to tuck the combo valve up close to the master cylinder.
The combo valve has been modified by removing the cartridge and spring (shown next to the end cap), they can be accessed after removing the end cap. The Wilwood adjustable proportioning valve ($42) will connect to the 3/16" brake line adapter fitting in the end cap, it's mounted on a simple angle bracket. I will adjust the front to rear brake bias using the Wilwood prop valve to prevent the rear brakes from locking before the fronts, especially under wet road conditions.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03095-1.jpg
I made up some new lines from the master to the combo valve, plus a short loop to connect the adjusable prop valve to the combo valve. I was able to reuse the original 3/16" line from the front brake reservior to the combo valve, but had to make up a new 1/4" line from the rear brake reservior to the combo valve. All these lines were bent by hand, the tubing is pretty soft so it's not too hard on your thumbs. There's no way to use a tubing bender on these with the bends so close to the tube nuts.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03099-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03100-1.jpg
The completed assembly test fitted in place, the short loop from the combo to the prop valve clears the inner fender by about 1/2".
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03103-1.jpg
That's all for today. :)

[b-man]

......

[gearheads78]

Everything is looking great. Couple small tips. I am running the same master and it was already starting to surface rust waiting for the rest of the car to go together. I cleaned it up and shot it with cast iron paint and it still looks great after driving every weekend since spring. Also the cross shafts will rust on the SPC arms and I cleaned mine up and semi-glossed blacked them

One other thing I noticed you were glad to gain a little clearance here. I used the same bolts but turned them around so the head in in the inside of the frame. It gives a bunch more clearance in that area. If you look close in my pic you can see the nuts are on the outside.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/08/DSC02936-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

my painted master cyl.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[b-man]

Today I finished making up all of the hard lines for the brakes. Again all of the bends were made by hand, making for some pretty sore thumbs by the end of the day.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03104-1.jpg

The lines coming down from the combo and prop valves were bent this way to leave room to pull the steering column in and out of the car. The line in front leads to the left front brake, the next one (60" long) goes under the engine along the front crossmember to the right front brake and the rear line coming off the prop valve connects up to the original rear brake line.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03106-1.jpg

The 60" long line running under the engine terminates here, getting this line bent and routed was made a little easier with the inner fender out of the way. The engine will come out once more later on, I will tidy up the bends a little and fasten it down better at that time.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/DSC03105-1.jpg

Another job out of the way that will bring me a bit closer to driving this old heap.

Keepin' on it. :)

[orbit]

How much longer do you think til this "old heap" gets rolling?

[b-man]

How much longer do you think til this "old heap" gets rolling?Probably a few more months, at least I'm hoping so.

But who knows.:dunno:

Project burnout does set in from time to time.

What started out as an engine and trans swap + A/C install has snowballed into nearly a complete mechanical refurb on the entire car.

[eville]

What started out as an engine and trans swap + A/C install has snowballed into nearly a complete mechanical refurb on the entire car.

HA HA Scope Creep!

[WILWAXU]

That's going to be a very cool cruiser!

[b-man]

.....can really occupy a lot of time, it seems like there are a thousand and one little jobs that still need to be done.

I spent some time making up the necessary brackets to secure the fan shroud to the radiator. Quite a few months back I modified some factory lower saddles for the radiator to rest on and trimmed the fan shroud to fit, but until just lately I haven't worked on finishing up the installation.

The fan shroud will serve to hold the radiator in place. At the top of the core support the top radiator tank seams rest against a length of 1/4" rubber fuel hose that was slit lengthwise and slipped over a folded sheetmetal lip. The top radiator clamp (3rd picture below) keeps it held down in the rubber-insulated saddles at the bottom.

I made up some mounting brackets from 2 X 2 X 1/8" angle iron to secure the fan shroud to the radiator and fill the gap between the shroud and radiator support, there are two 10-32 tapped holes for each shroud mounting tab. The shroud mounting tabs are made from 1-1/4 X 1-1/4 x 1/8" angle iron, each one is tapped with 1/4-28 threads to hold the shroud in place.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/DSC03128-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/DSC03129-1.jpg

The top radiator clamp mounts to the same two factory tapped holes in the radiator support that mounted the stock radiator clamp. I made it from a leftover scrap of .135" thick steel plate that I had previously used to modify the trans crossmember and a piece of 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 x 1/4" aluminum angle. I'll round off a few of the sharp corners before it gets painted and use some nicer looking fasteners when it's all finished up, I used some old Pontiac valve cover bolts that were handy for now. :)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/DSC03137-1.jpg

I also made up a starter motor shield, it's made from a piece of 3.00 dia. X .060" wall 304 stainless steel tubing that was slit lengthwise, unrolled and flattened to extend upward from the starter motor. The shield extends up high enough to shield the solenoid, starter soleniod wire and positive battery cable along with the crank sensor wiring and knock sensor wiring.

I still need to make a small 'L' bracket coming off the lower 8mm hex head starter motor bolt to clamp the shroud to the bottom front of the starter motor. The outside wall of the shield will be polished on a buffer so it will reflect as much heat as possible, I sure hope my starter lives a long life since it will be a pretty big job to change it out.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/DSC03133-1.jpg

The upper mounting bracket is made from 1 X 3/16" band iron. It mounts to one of the header bolts and has a 1/4-28 hole tapped in it to secure it to the top of the starter shield, it needed a small notch cut in the side so a 5/8" spark plug socket can sneak by. The .060" thick stainless shield and stout upper mounting bracket shouldn't vibrate and crack easily, some of the thin sheetmetal factory heat shields seem to have cracking issues.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/DSC03132-1.jpg

Another small detail out of the way is the brake master cylinder pushrod. I cut the looped end off and had a machinist friend of mine single-point some 3/8-24 threads on his lathe. Now it will screw right into the factory brake pushrod clevis.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/DSC03134-1.jpg

Thanks for looking. :)

[SamHatco]

Nice job on the heat shield for the starter. Very creative

Sam

[b-man]

Not a lot going on lately, my hours at work have been increased so I have less free time to get things done.

I did spend some time fitting up some universal Lokar column shift linkage made for GM auto transmissions, I want to keep the original 2-speed auto column shifter that came in the Tempest. The factory shift linkage that is supported by a pivot bracket on the frame and the trans selector shaft won't work, the selector shaft on the 4L70E is located about 1-1/4" further back on the trans compared the the TH400 and original ST300 2-speed. The Lokar kit cost me about $50 and was well-worth it.

Back when I first installed a TH400 in the car to replace the original Super-Turbine 300 2-speed I did a few mods to the steering column so the shift linkage would travel far enough to grab low gear on the 3-speed TH400.

I took the steering column apart and filed a slot in the outer column at the bottom and in one of the inner pieces near the top to allow the extra shift lever travel I needed. I also modified the shifter detent that bolts to the bottom of the column by fabricating and welding on an extension that gives the lower lever another step in the detent.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/DSC03155-1.jpg

Welding the fabricated mild steel step to the cast factory shifter detent seemed to go okay. I just used a little 308 stainless rod with a TIG welder and they joined together just fine. The weld did spit and pop a little during the process but it's lasted for over 30K miles so far and shows no signs of cracking.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/DSC03156-1.jpg

The Lokar kit comes with a nice billet aluminum lever that slips over a splined bushing that bolts onto the shift selctor shaft. The splines fit together very tightly and the lever gets locked in place with a clamp bolt, very high-quality fit and finish on these parts.

The lever is slotted so you can adjust the amount of selector shaft travel. I used the position that's located the farthest out to limit the length of lever travel, I only want to select Overdrive, 3rd and 2nd. I see no need to be able to grab low gear. The trans will kick down if I need low gear while accelerating and the trans will start off in low by itself if the selector is in 3rd or Overdrive.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/DSC03166-1.jpg

The factory 2-speed shift indicator pointer will be in the correct position for Park, Reverse and Neutral and will be in the Drive position for running in Overdrive. For 3rd gear it will be directly between the Drive and Low positions on the shift indicator, to engage 2nd I will have to pull the lever back and utilize the added shift detent that was welded on.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/DSC029731-1.jpg

The Lokar kit comes with a 21"-long piece 5/16" stainless rod that you bend and cut to length for your particular application. It comes threaded 5/16-24 on one end for a heim joint, the other end gets cut off and a piece that screws into the other heim joint slips over the rod gets secures with a pair of 1/4-28 set screws.

The 5/16" rod is very hard to bend cold, you need to clamp it in a large bench vise (using aluminum soft jaws) and push or pull it using all of your weight to bend it. I have my 6" vise bolted to the corner of a 48" X 36" X 1/2" thick steel welding table and I was able to lift the corner of it off the ground while bending the rod, so it's definitely plenty stiff and won't give any while shifting gears.

Getting the rod bent in the correct configuration takes a lot of time, constantly checking and bending it and later on trimming it until it's not hitting the firewall, engine or trans in all of the different positions of travel. I must have bolted this thing on and taken it back off 20 or 30 times before it was right.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/DSC03168-1.jpg

The kit instructions tell you to file a couple of flats after marking their locations. I had a friend mill the flats perfectly level in relation to one another and properly located center to center so the 2 set screws (with blue Loctite) would be best able to positively secure the heim joint.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/DSC03167-1.jpg

A lot of effort for a column shifter that almost nobody else would want on a car like this. :screwy:

That's all for now, thanks for looking.

Merry Christmas! :santa3:

[SamHatco]

Super job! Great attention to detail. I must say I have truley enjoyed this build. I love it when do it your selfers tackle projects in their own garages. You sir, are truly a hotrodder in the truest sense.

Sam

[CruizinKev]

awesome project! :twothumbs

[jeff s]

We have engine mount adaptors that put the engine bellhousing surface in the stock location, they set the engine about 1" further back than all the other ones on the market, which i found to all be incorrect. We also have a serpentine drive that clears the A body steering box, which some do not.
The last A body LS install we did with a stock chassis, was an LS7 and we had to notch the factory under engine crossmember for oil pan clearance. I've hear the Hummer H3 pan works but I cant confirm. We also have a tuned ecu and harness, using an actual corvette ecu rather than the non sequential Delphi MEFI that some use. The above items are all our products.

[gearbanger]

Have you driven this car yet with the new mods?

[b-man]

The Tempest is still a work in progress.

My hours have increased at work, so my spare time is limited.

Taking a break for now, but planning for the next big push.

[2ndgenhunter]

I'm so glad I found your thread!!

I thought I was the only person to want to use my 2sp PG column to shift my LS/4L65e .
Your build has givin me so mush useful info before I start . My car is a 67 Chevelle 300 Dlx, So everything on you build will transfer over to my car.

After you are finished you should publish a book called " How to swap a LSX/4LXX into an early A body.
I know I would buy it.

Keep up the great work. Can't wait to see it on the road.

[rockytopper]

I thought I was the only person to want to use my 2sp PG column to shift my LS/4L65e .


There is more than one. I kept my column shift in my 1965 LS1 f-85 cutlass and with the 4l60e it was a direct bolt in to the factory shifter and linkage no modifications required. You might get that lucky in the chevelle with the 4l65e not sure, I think B-mans shifter fork is futher back on the 4l70e trans than the 4l60e has.

[86_442_kID]

I just want to say that this is one of the best step by step build threads I've ever read B-Man. With all that happened to me with in the past month or so losing my job and all. Reading your build has really lifted my spirit up sir. I just hope I can hold on to my 442 and get back buying all the parts I need so I can get started on my baby. I gotta hold on to what little money I have for family and stuff until I can find some more work. Thanks for sharing your build with us B-Man.

Kin

[2ndgenhunter]

There is more than one. I kept my column shift in my 1965 LS1 f-85 cutlass and with the 4l60e it was a direct bolt in to the factory shifter and linkage no modifications required. You might get that lucky in the chevelle with the 4l65e not sure, I think B-mans shifter fork is futher back on the 4l70e trans than the 4l60e has.


Thanks for the info. I hope mine works too.
Do you have a build thread or pics?


Sorry B-man for the highjacking.

[b-man]

Thanks for the info. I hope mine works too.
Do you have a build thread or pics?Link to rockytopper's build thread:http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/836762-1965-ls1-f85-project-pics.html

Thanks for the kind words guys. :smoke:

Just got home from work a little while ago, finishing off a 70-hour week.:machine:

As I mentioned in my post above, right now I'm taking a breather on the Tempest project. I need to tighten up the front end parts and get the brakes working, then blow it apart (remove engine, trans, A/C unit) so I can insulate the floors and firewall and trailer it to an upholstery shop to get a headliner installed.

Also need to get the new windshield and old back glass installed, then the next big hurdle will be getting all the wiring taken care of (fan relays, A/C unit, gauges, etc.) after the dash bezel gets painted.

Turned out to be a lot more involved than just an LS3 swap.

Hoping to finish it up this year, I'm anxious to start running around in it with some of the local Pro-Touring folks. Might even take it on the Power Tour. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Bart

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[MCMLXIX]

Any progress?

[Motown 454]

Me too I miss these updates.

[b-man]

No new progress to report.

Been spending my time trying to catch up on the other things that I have neglected while getting this project off the ground. That and spending time selling off some of my parts stash and a couple of my hobby cars to raise some cash and to make some room to work, my garage is crammed with stuff that I've collected over the last 30 years in this hobby.

After a while I'll get rolling on the Tempest again. I'm anxious to fire up the LS3, get behind that big steering wheel and click the column shifter into Drive.

[Pro-Buick]

I can't wait to see the whole car on its wheels....
I like white car with black wheels ;-)

[Mingus]

First off B-Man, great thread and great car.
And as for 12GO, looked under the hood of a G8 lately? He did use an EFI'd "Pontiac" engine. We were just having this discussion on the thread of protouringuk and his cool '72 LeMans (with a Chevy engine) about brand fanatics, especially "Pontiacificators". Pontiac put all kinds of engines in their cars even before everything went "corporate" in '82.
Let's see, off the top of my head:
Most 70's X-body Venturas had Chevy engines.
6.6 California emissions Trans-Ams had 403 Olds engines.
Pretty much everything '82-on had "corporate" (Chevy) engines except:
The '89 20th Anniversary T/A which had a 3.8 Buick GN V-6.
I'm sure I've missed a bunch, but you get the idea.
Bottom line to me, the Tempest is awesome. I like all kinds of cars with all kinds of mods (or no mods). A whole world full of "correctly" restored vehicles would be pretty damn boring. I think there should always be cars that are kept original, it's just not what B-Man chose to do with his (or pretty much everybody on PT.com). I don't give a damn what engine he puts in his car, and you shouldn't either. I just enjoy seeing the craftsmanship involved to get it in there, like all the trouble he's going through to keep the stock column shifter. It's perfectly fine to not agree with his choices, but they are his to make. No need to light him up about it. If you want to build a '64 with a Pontiac engine, by all means do it. I'd love to see it too.

[MrBlonde]

Great to read, look forwards to the next posts Bart.

[rohrt]

B-man.

Love the thread also. Great pics and write up.

I wish I had the nuts to make the move to LS engines. As much as I love pontiac engines they seem to be an endless amount of Grief for me lately.

[makindue]

love the project looks like you've put a lot of thought into this you should have one hell of a sleeper when your done

I agree with you. I think that project will be a good project for the other car. I don't want to go to hell so I will use the sleeper. :D

[carguy502]

Thanks, I thought long and hard in order to come up with a unique one-of-a-kind wheel/tire combo that nobody else had.

Not a lightweight set-up by any means (a bare wheel weighs 37#), but they do a pretty good job of giving this 'Plain Jane' little white Tempest some real personality.

The 235/45-17 tires will be replaced with a set of 245/45-17s very soon.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/DSC008461-1.jpg

I have another Tempest/LS3 swap thread going on the Performance Years site, I'm trying to gather info there as well. It looks like a set of Edelbrock mounting plates and LSX engine swap headers will put the engine where I want it.

Corvette accessories will be in the cards too, I'll notch the front crossmember for A/C compressor clearance. Also looks like the LH8 oil pan kit from GM is the way to go.

Where did you get these wheels from? I have been looking for steelies like these forever...

[1360]

Damn sweet car, cannot wait to see more of it.....planning to steal a ton of ideas for my F-85!!

[b-man]

Where did you get these wheels from? I have been looking for steelies like these forever...I had this set up for sale a while back but took them off the market later on. I still like them a lot and I do have another '64 that I can use them on: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66478

Send me a PM and you might be able to talk me into selling them, you live close enough to come pick them up and avoid shipping costs.

[sprintracer]

anything new with this car?

[b-man]

Nothing new, will update when I can get back to working on my project.

Too many other things going on right now that are far more important than working on my Tempest unfortunately.

Thanks, Bart

[67goatman455]

anything new to report, bud? your getting really close

[b-man]

Nothing new to report, project is on hold due to events in my life that have to take precedence over having fun with cars.

Thanks, Bart

[thirdstreettito]

Damn B-man, so much awesome in this thread, I love the previous wheels, and the new ones! Good job! Keep going!

[thirdstreettito]

Any updates Bart?

[b-man]

I have not worked on the Tempest in quite a while.

I do plan to finish it, but right now I can't say when I'll get back into it.

[twosaturns]

well, hope things work out well for you soon.

[matt22]

B-man I saw earlier where you asked for help with shopping list?
Well if you still plan to run Cruise control on your LS3 DBW it is available now.
Check out http://spankysrodshop.net

[85coupe50]

This is a good build... Hope you can get back on it soon.

[67goatman455]

agreed! cant wait to see more progress! i do have a question though, unless i missed it you never said if you used an adapter on the rear wheels. (im just trying to calculate backspacing on some wheels im looking at) and do you know if the AFX had any changes to your backspacing from stock form?

[old66tiger]

B-man. Where are you at on this project? Did you start a new thread?