Welding and certifications

[Mathius]

But let me tell you about the real world of welding. When I got my certs, and I called around to ask about jobs, know what I found out? They don't give a damn if you're certified. If they want you certified, they'll send you to get certified. Because certifications vary too much, and they don't mean **** unless you're working on the same material and equipment as that certification.

There's a different certification for each position, each alloy, each rod you use, each process, etc. There are thousands of them.

It's far more important that you can just plain weld. What good is a guy with 9 certifications if he can only weld under those 9 specific conditions. If I slap a piece of steel in front of him and he can't do it, what good is he?

Being a good welder is about being a good welder. It's about experience and practice.

And let me tell you something else. When you don't do it often? That can hurt you too.

I personally hate MIG welding. It's easy. It's cheap. I much prefer the skill and control involved in gas welding or TIG. But I have a 110 MIG because that's what I can afford. So I welded up some cheap shop stools about a month ago... and they looked like a$$. Because I hadn't done it in a while, and I neglected to make double sure the material was clean. Found I was burning up a bunch of **** and the weld was just balling up.

So in the end, experience, and keeping in practice is what I advocate more than anything else. Pick up some scrap and make something out of it. Even if its just to keep you busy. Materials are relatively cheap, and gas lasts a while.

Just my 2 cents. Sorry to rant. No, on second thought, I'm not sorry.

Mathius

[toxicz28]

It's far more important that you can just plain weld. What good is a guy with 9 certifications if he can only weld under those 9 specific conditions. If I slap a piece of steel in front of him and he can't do it, what good is he?

You couldn't be further from the truth. I've seen excellent weldors lose their jobs because they were NQ, or not qualified.

[Mathius]

You couldn't be further from the truth. I've seen excellent weldors lose their jobs because they were NQ, or not qualified.

Then he worked for a shoddy company.

Mathius

[toxicz28]

Then he worked for a shoddy company.

Mathius

When the DOT, or NYC expects the weldors working on their projects to have DOT, or NYC certs, the company can't do crap about it other than replace them. Doesn't make the company shoddy, it makes the weldor non qualified.

[Mathius]

When the DOT, or NYC expects the weldors working on their projects to have DOT, or NYC certs, the company can't do crap about it other than replace them. Doesn't make the company shoddy, it makes the weldor non qualified.

No, the company plans the jobs, they bid on them. They should have known the requirements beforehand and taken care of it. You can't expect every welder to be certified in every material. Do you have any inkling at all as to just how many certifications there are? Not to mention that certain organizations don't recognize certifications from certain testing places.

The local sheet metal workers union won't recognize any certs but their own.

And the bottom line is, did the guy get another job welding? I'll bet he did. Know why? 'Cuz it's about welding, not how many slips of paper you have.

Mathius

[toxicz28]

Do you have any inkling at all as to just how many certifications there are? Not to mention that certain organizations don't recognize certifications from certain testing places.

Well, lets see. I've been welding for about 20 years now, and I'm very well aware of how many certs there are, for my trade(ironworker), as well as for pipefitters, electricians, carpenters, boilermakers, etc.
In my local, if you don't have a cert, you don't get the welding job. End of discussion. That's all the inspectors care about, that you have that little card.
Certifications are what gives our locals the edge on providing qualified weldors to the contractors that hire us. If your BA tells you to get certified, do it, without question.
Maybe, once you finish your appreticeship, or not get sent to a job because you don't have the right cert, you'll understand why it is important to have them, as well as the skill to back the cert up.

[Matt@RFR]

In my local, if you don't have a cert, you don't get the welding job. End of discussion. That's all the inspectors care about, that you have that little card.
That's because you belong to a union. Pitty.

There's a bigger world out there friend. For us non-union guys, a half decent company will do exactly as Mathius said. Plan ahead (what a concept!) and have their guys certed to whatever is required.

Case in point: I currently work at a company that builds aircraft stuff. Non union. They quoted a job for Lockheed that required a few specific certs. They were awarded the job and immediately had some of us cert'd to Lockheed's requirements.

If I'm reading you correctly, if the above example happened in a union shop, I'd have been fired. (or if I was applying for the job, I'd have been rejected.) Boy did I make the right decision in staying away from unions! I'll happily trade more money for working in a shop that's governed by common sense rather than paperwork and super-rigid rules.


Certifications are what gives our locals the edge on providing qualified weldors to the contractors that hire us. And certifying existing employees is what gives smallish non-union shops the edge in terms of flexibility, cost and speed to compete with union shops.

Believe it or not, my point is not to get into a union vs. non-union discussion. My point is that what you see at your shop is not necessarily how the rest of the trade works. Yourself and Mathius are both correct, depending on the circumstances. So knock it off you two. Don't make me pull this internet over!

See ya next year. :)

[toxicz28]

For starters, if you enjoy the 40 hour work week, weekends off, overtime pay, and every law that the department of labor put in place to protect your rights, you can thank unions for that. (http://www.theholidayspot.com/laborday/labmovement.htm)
Secondly, my "shop" is wherever the bridge or building is being built, repaired, renovated, and in the case of the WTC, removed. And unless you sell your soul to a company, or the company is very busy and the work flows right, that is how my trade (ironworkers) works. Do I work for the same company long-term? Sometimes, sometimes not. But, a new job is always just a phone call away. Despite the economy, construction is booming in New York city, so, don't feel the need to pity me Matt.
If my situation was like yours Matt, and probably yours too Mathius, knowing the way the tinknockers work out here(out of a shop), then yes, the company would give the weldors the opportunity to certify for an upcoming project. But under my circumstances, if a contractor calls the hall and asks for 10 DOT certified weldors, you are not getting sent without that ticket already in hand. With the exception of power plants, it is very rare for a contractor to test on site, so why would you want to have to pass on a job before you get that cert?
As I said in my last post, certifications are important, but they are just a piece of paper without the skill to back them up.

[Mathius]

But under my circumstances, if a contractor calls the hall and asks for 10 DOT certified weldors, you are not getting sent without that ticket already in hand. With the exception of power plants, it is very rare for a contractor to test on site, so why would you want to have to pass on a job before you get that cert?

Right.... so just how exactly does that work? They ask for a "certified welder" eh?

So anyone that's certified in anything raises their hands? Doubtful. Like I said, certifications are for a specific material thickness, a specific position, etc.

If they need a certification for a certain job the smart and intelligent thing to do is get the person certified before the job.

The idea of certifying people beforehand, and hoping you have all the certifications covered, or at least something close enough, is poor planning to say the least.

Is this why the iron heads have stepped up recruiting with the t.v. ads and billboards and such? I wouldn't imagine you'd be doing to well if that's the way they run things.


As I said in my last post, certifications are important, but they are just a piece of paper without the skill to back them up.

Could you please highlight exactly WHERE you said that? Because that's pretty much the opposite of what you've been saying with all this crap about how important certifications are, and it's a great summary of what I said in my original post that you're arguing about.

Mathius

[toxicz28]

Right.... so just how exactly does that work? They ask for a "certified welder" eh?
Since you missed it, I said DOT certified. DOT means Department Of Transportation. If they ask for DOT certified, they want DOT certified. Not New York City, not American Welding Society.



So anyone that's certified in anything raises their hands? Doubtful. Like I said, certifications are for a specific material thickness, a specific position, etc.
You are mistaken. Here's an example.
DOT has four certification tests, tacking (yes,you actually have to be certified to tack on a DOT job:dunno: ), fillet, 3/8" groove and 3/4" groove. But if you pass the 3/4" vertical and overhead grooved plates(3G and 4G) (Class A certification IIRC), it covers them all. Any position, any rod size, grooved or fillet, unlimited thickness. Makes it alot easier that way, doesn't it?


If they need a certification for a certain job the smart and intelligent thing to do is get the person certified before the job.

Haven't I been saying that??

it is very rare for a contractor to test on site, so why would you want to have to pass on a job before you get that cert?
Yeah, I thought so.



The idea of certifying people beforehand, and hoping you have all the certifications covered, or at least something close enough, is poor planning to say the least.
On the contrary, we work with mild steel SMAW and FCAW and stainless steel SMAW. And if the Port Authority ever gives the go ahead for the Freedom Tower, steel tubing SMAW. Five cert's, I'd call it excellent planning to get people certified, so when the call comes in, the weldors go out.


Is this why the iron heads have stepped up recruiting with the t.v. ads and billboards and such? I wouldn't imagine you'd be doing to well if that's the way they run things.
"Iron heads" lol, that's cute. We don't need ads or billboards. Word of mouth is enough to get over 5000 people to turn up for applications for only 100 openings.




Could you please highlight exactly WHERE you said that? Because that's pretty much the opposite of what you've been saying with all this crap about how important certifications are, and it's a great summary of what I said in my original post that you're arguing about.

Mathius

That would be right about here, bright red, bold, italics, and underlined so you don't miss it again.


Maybe, once you finish your apprenticeship, or not get sent to a job because you don't have the right cert, you'll understand why it is important to have them, as well as the skill to back the cert up.
It's right up there in red text in case you missed it again :cheers: .



Back on topic now.
True,
Sorry 'bout the hijack, and glad you got your welding issues sorted out.:cool: Remember to switch polarity when you go from flux cored to solid wire. electrode(gun) + for solid wire

[Mathius]

Since you missed it, I said DOT certified. DOT means Department Of Transportation. If they ask for DOT certified, they want DOT certified. Not New York City, not American Welding Society.


You are mistaken. Here's an example.
DOT has four certification tests, tacking (yes,you actually have to be certified to tack on a DOT job:dunno: ), fillet, 3/8" groove and 3/4" groove. But if you pass the 3/4" vertical and overhead grooved plates(3G and 4G) (Class A certification IIRC), it covers them all. Any position, any rod size, grooved or fillet, unlimited thickness. Makes it alot easier that way, doesn't it?

So in other words, what you weren't saying before is that there are 4 main certifications that your company focuses on, and if you don't have those 4 you're screwed. It's not a case of someone just not being certified. There are 4 certifications you use regularly. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than the nonsense you were babeling before about expecting people to be certified for every job.



It's right up there in red text in case you missed it again :cheers: .

Which is all well and good, except that my whole rant above was about certs not being worth a damn thing if you don't know how to weld.

And you spent an extra 3-4 messages disagreeing with me and arguing about it.:pat:

Am I wrong here? Someone else please jump in and tell me if I'm wrong, but that's what I said wasn't it?

Mathius

[derekf]

I have moved the contents of the certification posts out of True's "What am I doing wrong?" posts as they're off topic there.

[parsonsj]

OK, that's enough fun for one day.

jp