The 14 Car safety thread, Roll Cage, Kirkey seats,Fire systems

[NOT A TA]

It seems a lot of us build our cars for more speed,better handling,better braking, more comfort and what we feel is a better appearance than what was stock. However safety seems to take a backseat because it's not as much "fun". Increased safety measures seem to be considered necessary only to "pass tech" at whatever type of events we plan on using the car for or to meet state minimum standards for registration.

I myself was somewhat guilty of that and showed up at my first track event on a road course with a motorcycle helmet and only lap belts for restraints! The first instructor assigned to me wouldn't even get in my car!

I've attended drag races, HPDE road course track days with a couple different groups, the ECTA (top speed events) and I drive the car on the street. The car can run at about 150 MPH on the long straights on certain road tracks and was only allowed to run 135 at the ECTA due to lack of a bar/cage.

We can't play anymore if we're in a hospital or kill ourselves so this thread will detail my efforts to keep myself and passengers as safe as possible given my financial constraints, events I plan on attending in the future and timetable. If it keeps just one person from getting hurt unnecessarily it will have been worth the time I spend posting. About a year ago I promised myself I wouldn't track the 14 car anymore or make it faster till some serious safety upgrades were completed.

After adding it up I'll spend more than half of what I currently have invested in the car to do these upgrades. But I'm worth it!

1 Personal safety devices
Good helmet W/hans type device, firesuit and related gloves shoes etc

2 Full roll cage that excedes the requirements for the classes I will be running. door net etc as recommended by sanctioning bodies

3 racing seats designed to protect the occupants, not just seats that look "racy" and offer the ability to use racing harnesses

4 fire system that excedes the requirements for classes I will run

5 Fuel system modifications to reduce risk of fire if I wreck

Here's the car that will be recieving the upgrades

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/The14CaratLimeRockPark1-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

My first purchase toward my safety goals was an ARAI GP5W helmet. I was using a motorcycle helmet because we sold them in my store and could "pass tech" in the enty level classes at track events. Rule changes during the couple years I was using it make it obsolete for automotive duties. Motorcycle helments don't need to be fire safe because the rider is usually thrown. Most of the automotive sanctioning bodies are no longer allowing motorcycle helmets.

You can function without a hand, arm, foot, leg,etc but not your head. I may go to tracks in a different car or with someone else so my first purchase for myself was an ARAI GP5W. It is Hans compatable, carries the most recent certifications, and can be used for several years before it's outdated. The W is for the wide eyeport, which allows glasses to be worn inside the helmet more easily.

This helmet now costs $700.00-$800.00. Much less expensive helmets will "pass tech" at most events and carry the same certifications. Is the Arai better at protecting? I don't know, but it's a quality piece that fits well from a company with a good reputation. My heads worth it!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/86PorscheWidebodyConv032-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Next up on the agenda is the roll cage. I will be using the car in at least 4 different types of sanctioned events. Unfortunatly they all have various requirements for the construction of cages depending on the classes the vehicle will be competing in. This required getting rulebooks from each group to be sure that the cage will excede the requirements for the classes I intend on running in. The event types are as follows.

1 N.A.S.A. Events at road courses. I am in the HPDE groups and hope to eventually run the Time Trials. I will not be racing fender to fender.

2 E.C.T.A. / S.C.T.A./BNI Top speed events. I will hopefully make at trip west in 09 or 10 to run Bonniville or California and will go to the E.C.T.A. in Maxton NC whenever I can.


3 N.H.R.A.- N.M.C.A. drag racing. Test and tunes as well as True Street type events I've run previously.

4 SSCC The Silver State Challenge. An open road race on 90 miles of public highway when I make my trip out west.

To get the ball rolling I stripped out most of the interior of the car other than interior panels that require clearance when the cage is finished. It was hard to do as I'd finally gotten the interior just the way I wanted it, other than a compromise on harness anchoring points. New harnesses will be used after the cage install with Harness bar cage attachment points.

The 4 point harnesses shown in the "before" pics feature Schroths ASM technology and are designed for use in cars without bar/cage harness attachment points. They were a TEMPORARY measure for me so I could use my car and be safer than the 30+ year old lap only belts I had been using. I'd been warned at tech inspection at several events that the Schroth harnesses were not "legal" however they always let me race.

Before

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/The14Carinterior001-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/The14Carinterior007-1.jpg

Pics after removing interior pieces and 25 lbs of floor sound deadening material. I'll prep and paint the floor after all welding is done before carpet goes back in.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/The14Carinterior023-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/The14Carinterior025-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Once the cage is welded in the frame/unibody can't be easily straightened or adjusted. So before any cage work I took the car to a buddies body shop where they'll check the car and if need be, put it up on the frame table and tweak it a little.

The Fab shop doing the cage needs the drivers seat in order to fabricate the mounts within the cage structure and weld in supports for the shoulder/head restraints. After some research I decided on a Kirkey#63 seat. It's a "full containment" seat with shoulder supports and head brace. http://www.kirkeyracing.com/index.php?link=browse&code=Series63 We'll try to figure a way to allow reinstallation of the stock buckets for normal street driving but I doubt thats going to be possible.

At about $1,000.00 for a seat they're by no means cheap. And as if thats not bad enough I also need one for the passenger side! N.A.S.A. HPDE's and the open road races with a navigator want the same equipment for instructors/co-pilots that the driver has but I would have done it anyway.

Here's a pic of the seat as it arrives unassembled

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/kirkeyseat007-1.jpg

Assembled loosely and not adjusted for me

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/kirkeyseat003-1.jpg

Back side

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/kirkeyseat011-1.jpg

[chicane67]

O u t s t a n d i n g...

It is the best investiment you will ever make. Nice seat selection... I too love my 63 series. Just remember to attach the top of the halo to the main hoop... and dont use the supplied alloy 'u' plates, I believe it would be of great benifit to solidly mount the halo to the main hoop on both the upper and lower flanges.

The best thing is... that your gonna make it a weekend bolt in... and keep your normal seats in the car the rest of the time. Great multi-purpose car idea.

Keep the updates coming !! There will be a lot to learn from your efforts that will help the masses !!

[NOT A TA]

Well the body guys checked out the car. They said the unibody was straight and the car did not have to go on the frame straightening table. So now the cage can be welded in place! My buddy at the body shop played with my front end sheetmetal a little and aligned my front bumper a little better than I had when I did the bodywork and painted the car over 15 years ago. Sweet peace of mind deal for $50.00 and better bumper fit to boot!

So I dropped the car off at the fabrication shop today. http://www.jwracing-fab.com/ We discussed the cage now that we've got all the info from the various sanctioning bodies. The classes I may eventually run in do not allow removable door or harness bars so my original thoughts about going that route are out. We're still hoping that with a little planning I may be able to run the stock seats on the street, we'll see.

dropping it off at JW Fab. I always open the hood, trunk if anyone else has to touch the car. This avoids any probs

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/The14Carmisc2018-1.jpg

Might be able to see the blown maverick in the shop. A bunch of fast drag cars go through this shop.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/The14Carmisc2019-1.jpg

[Steve1968LS2]

nice...

:)

[NOT A TA]

Well the 4th thing on my "to do" list is the Fire System. I hate fires!

While working for a company my "company car" burned on the side of a suburban street while I waited for the FD to arrive. Engine compartment

My stepsons 79 Z28 burned in front of our house 50' from the fire station. Engine compartment

The engine I currently run in my firebird came out of a GTO clone parts car I purchased after.... you guessed it, a fire! Passenger compartment

Also I work next to a service/towing operation and I've seen enough badly burned cars to last me a lifetime.

I carry a handheld extinguisher in every car I own and have had occasion to use them on other peoples cars. (don't expect that someone will replace it for you if you help them)

I read everything I could find and ended up deciding on Firefox Systems. http://firefoxind.com/firefox.html While there are other very effective systems in the end it's a personal decision.

The Firefox systems I am installing use a bladder type system using Fire X Plus/Gem Foam. I will have 2 systems in the car. A 6.5 lb. 2 nozzle will take care of the passenger compartment (Kinda overkill) and a 10 lb. 3 nozzle system for the engine compartment and fuel tank area. I will use the pull type activator located within easy reach while harnessed in accessible by both the driver and navigator. The systems are about $400.00 and $600.00 respectivly.

The open road event I plan on attending is 90 miles on the open Highway in Nevada and while they have safety equipment available I don't know how long it might take to arrive at an incident and don't want to be BBQed in the desert should fire be a problem.

I haven't decided yet where I'll mount the cylinders but I'm thinking either in the trunk just behind the rear seat firewall or on the transmission tunnel where the rear seats are. No one will be allowed in the rear seat area after the cage is installed anyway.

If I have to add weight to the car then I don't want it to have a negative affect on the cars handling. I feel putting it back beyond the rear axle while good for traction at a dragstrip would be a negative when carving corners.

Here's the 6.5 lb system. It comes with 2 nozzles, Activator head, 4' pull style activatorcable, 10' of stainless tubing, a fitting kit, mounting brackets, and of course the cylinder w/gauge.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carmisc2020-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carmisc2022-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carmisc2021-1.jpg

[slowcamaro]

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27556

check it out for some quality cage input.

[Chad-1stGen]

Neat thread. And that is a really nice looking car, especially for a 15 year old paint job.

[NOT A TA]

Blyth18md that was one of the threads I read through trying to decide how far I wanted to go with the cage lots of stuff there.

Chad Thanks for the compliment, Painted it myself in the backyard on a dirt driveway. Where there's a will there's a way!

When I first got the car I was going to paint it (without TA body parts) and throw a set of Crager SS wheels on it and use it as a daily driver. It's come a long long way since then

[NOT A TA]

Well the guys at JW Fabrication started my car today.

I was at a Porsche club track day that got pretty rainy by late morning so I left. Figured I'd swing by the shop and take a couple pics. They had made floor plates out of 1/4" and had bent up the main hoop out of the 1 3/4" .120 DOM tubing. So here's the pics!

Floor plates front and rear.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior028-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior029-1.jpg

Yes the rear plastic wheelwell panel will be out when they weld. It's just there in the pics because they were checking clearance for reinstalling it after the cage is finished.

Main hoop (bar that goes up from the floor by the rear of the door, across the roof, and down the other side behind the door)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior027-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Today Joe at http://www.jwracing-fab.com/ had been busy bending/fitting tubing and welding up pieces and was waiting for paint to dry when I got there. Perfect time to take pics and get the lowdown on some of the steps involved.

The car had been lifted up on scissor jacks and leveled front to rear and side to side using the inner rockers as a referance guide. This way they can get things level and straight using magnetic levels when setting up the tubing and doing the actual welding. Pic 1

Any tubing that will be very close to finished body parts (Headliner etc) that will be hard to reach when spray painting in an already "done" car are given a quick coat of paint in the hard to reach areas which makes it easier to get a good look later when giving the cage it's final paint. I'm going to paint the cage black after I get the car back so thats what they used. pic2

The floor plates are in place along with the main hoop and the wheelwell plastic trim is again checked to make sure it can be removed/reinstalled. I'll be removing the heavy factory sound deadening material behind those panels in my efforts to minimize the weight gain of the roll cage. pic 3

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior032-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior030-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior031-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

It's killin me to know someone's working on my car during the day and I'm not there, since I usually do everything myself. So I ditched work for a few minutes to run over to the shop and see what they were doing. They were done working on my car for the day and packing up their stuff to go to a dragstrip tomorrow for a track day. Joes Mustang has run low 8's and he's hoping to hit 7's tomorrow!

The first pic looks like a "set up" shot but thats just what it looked like when I drove up so I got the pic. Other pics show the cage work.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior036-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior037-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior038-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior039-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior040-1.jpg

[KwikGT]

I can't wait to see it!

I get first ride!!!

[NOT A TA]

Passenger seat arrived today, it's substantially wider than the drivers seat since I'm not a very big guy. My navigators for the open road races I want to go to are big guys so I got a big seat to accomodate them. Smaller passengers will require extra padding in the seat when needed. This may occur at road track track days etc or on the street. The passenger seat will also be set much farther back and there will be multiple mounting locations on the harness bar which will allow changing the shoulder strap height to obtain the correct angles the straps should be at for various torso/height passengers. I'll explain more when we get to the Harnesses we'll be installing.

Kirkey seats like the seats I'm using come in 14,15,16,17, and 18 inch sizes. This is based on a measurement taken across the hips according to the fitment instructions on their website. The passenger seat is an 18" and is going to present a challenge because of the way the 2nd gen cars windows angle. The shoulder braces for the passenger are going to be a tight fit on that side.

These are full containment seats with a provision to prevent the helmet from moving more than a couple inches side to side and so the top of the "seat" so to speak is much wider where the sides of the head brace are than the usual "racing" seats we're accustomed to seeing/using. This is another challenge for Joe building the cage and seat supports since the 2nd gen side windows angle in quite a bit.

This pics show the 14" drivers seat being held in position (although approx 4" lower than it will be) and you can see how big the head braces are. These seats were designed for circle track guys so the right side head brace is extended to help when they hit the wall in corners. We discussed the possibility of modifying the right sides of the head supports by shortening them to match the left side since I'd like to be able to see when making right turns. I'm going to check with the tech guys to be sure this will be OK before attempting it.

It's not looking good for the possibility of running the stock seats after the cage is in but we'll try when it's done. The driver and passenger entry openings that the seats would have to fit through may not be big enough. The Kirkey seats can be assembled in the car so the opening can be smaller. We also discussed the possibility of fabricating a more street friendly head support to replace the helmet brace section of the seat for normal street driving if I can't get the stock seats back in the car when the cage is complete.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior041-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior042-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Cage is coming together nicely! Triangulation is the key to strength. you may have noticed the the tubing running from the drivers front corner to the passengers rear corner on the ceiling. Perhaps you've also noted the smaller gusset bars at the tubing intersections.

Now we see a diagnal bar from above/behind the driver to below/behind the passenger which when combined with the floor pan bar over the hump, divides the main hoop into essentially 2 large triangles. This bar will also be met by the harness bar tubing creating even smaller triangles which are very very strong.

The rocker bars are tacked in place in these pics. The shoulder bars will angle down from the main hoop behind the occupants to the lower front corner near the door hinges. They will be positioned so they pass the by occupants between the shoulder and elbow.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior044-1.jpg

These pics show rocker bar and floor plate mounting

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior045-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior046-1.jpg

[chicane67]

I love to see progress... proper tubing for the right application... angle braces (hoop gussets) that are also structural... ... nice.

I'd call Kevin (at Kirkey) and see if he can make you up a passenger side seat, head rest. (And while your on the phone, if you could... ask him if he is still going to do a road race style head rest for the 63 series seat as well. We have been trying to work on him to get optional head rests for the 63 series... Kevin just didn't think there was going to be any interest.)

I don't believe that you will want to modify the head restraint to be any shorter.... that would reduce it's safety intent. You will have plenty of visibility with the tube head restraint... that is why that specific device was made. Plus... you will only need to run the tube head support when you are at an event that requires it. That is another reason I was hoping that if you talk to Kevin... you could impress him with making the road race style head rest for the 63 series... as we could then run them when a tube halo was not required (like in street and auto-cross driving as well.)

The only reason that the left side is shorter is to help getting out of the car... and the window net is the secondary to that and the "rules" people think that is enough. If you did shorten the right side I would definitely add a "C6R" right side net. But, I think that you will be fine without shortening the head restraint and without the right side net. I though I would just throw the side net idea out there if you do end up with a different direction. The next in consideration looks like this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I would also entertain the use of a wide angle rear-view mirror. It almost negates the need for side-view mirrors all together. Plus with it being a bolt in/on... it makes it easier for installation and removal if you didn't need it on the street. Something like this (http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=ALLVIEW_Rearview_Mirror_with_RAM_Mou nt_Kit&form_prod_id=124,56_4681&action=product).

And hopefully this (http://http://www.simpsonraceproducts.com/safety/safety.aspx?page=restraint_info) well help in the thought process for the shoulder restraint mounting.

Cant wait to see the backhalf getting done... that means your almost done !!

[NOT A TA]

The Kirkey seats http://www.kirkeyracing.com/index.php?link=browse&code=Series63 need to be bolted to something! In this example they'll be bolted to a special framework welded to the cage at the rocker bar and to the body at the transmission tunnel. This will further reduce flex in the unibody while providing a solid platform for the seats. Kirkey does not recommend the use of stock style sliders or adjusters as they might not withstand a high impact crash at high speeds.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior056-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

I'm not a big guy so I need the seat forward more than most of the potential passengers. Here we see the passenger seat platform is longer and extends farther back. They're just tacked into place so we can do some test fitting. For inquiring minds, the 2 shiny bolts located in the floor on each side are for the driveshaft loop ( a must have for any hot rod) and the wire hanging on the dash grab bar is for the Hurst line lock which gets mounted on the shifter.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior055-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

We test fit the drivers seat so we can be sure the platform for the seat will be in the correct position. The drivers seat needs to be placed in the best position for comfort, vehicle control, and safety.

Comfort: I'm planning to spend a lot of time in the seat (gotta get my moneys worth!) so I don't want the seat to be in the wrong position as far as height, distance to the steering wheel and pedals, or tilt.

Vehicle control: I've learned that the correct bend to the elbow reduces fatigue during extended track time. You don't see pro racers with their arms fully extended or crunched up to the steering wheel like somebodys great grandmother. This allows smoother use of the steering wheel during cornering. Smoother cornering= lower lap times!

The tilt of the seat should be set more upright than we're occustomed to in street cars. If the seats not upright enough you'll feel like you're trying to pull yourself more "upright" against the harnesses. This diminishes your ability to dedicate 100% to smooth operation of the vehicle. So no "Lampin" like like you're "da man" with a reclining seat laid back as far as it will go!

Safety:The harnesses need to be positioned correctly according to the manufacturers instructions in order to recieve the most benefit from them should you ever need them. There are instructions involving the mounting points in relation to hips shoulders etc. while seated in the seats. If you're going to spend the loot on serious seats and belts make sure you get the most protection you can and mount them properly! The information's available so use it! Stock seat belts are a compromise based on the adjustability of the seats and limits of a 3 point system. Racing seats like these seats are bolted solidly in position and therefore the optimal angles can be obtained.

I've also learned that a correct bend to the knee will reduce the possibility of injury to the legs should an impact occur. Think about it. If your knee is fully locked (standing on the brakes in a panic) when an impact uccurs, somethings gotta give. It will be bones or tendons etc.


Please note that the pic below was taken while trying to find the correct position. It is not the final position or final adjustments of the seat itself. It's just the first test fit to make sure the platform positioning will work out.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior058-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Joe started the down bars to the trunk today. The regulations for the high speed classes I will be running require welding fully around the tubing at every intersection. I wasn't aware until this project that some organizations and classes only require as little as 70% of the circumference to be welded. It would be more difficult to accomplish 100% welding if the down bars were angled at the same rake as the rear window (since the car was complete with headliner and rear window in place)and the bars would run through the rear shelf.

We decided to run the bars through the rear seat support to the area just inside the rear wheelwells on top of the rear framerails. The wheelwells are stock and I've been running 315's so I doubt I'll want to mini tub it anytime in the near future. We'll have to see if I can get the rear seat (with modifications) back into the car or if I'll have to finish off the area some other way. The rear seat is pretty lightweight so thats not not much of a consideration.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior054-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior053-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Schroth (pronounced Schrote) racing harnesses will be used with the Kirkey seats for track/racing events. I purchased the model Profi II 6 Enduro Hans which is part # sr 91210H-0. http://www.schrothracing.com/products/Competition/profi/profi-II
I talked to the guys at Schroth who were really helpfull and patient with my questions. The belts are available with different attaching methods. I chose the clip style to aid in switching the passenger settings to accomodate different people and purchased extra eyebolts to use for that purpose.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior062-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

The instructions for harness installation (on DVD) come with the belts and detail the angles required to provide the best possible protection should things go wrong. The clip system I chose will also allow me to switch easily to a 4 point (YES a 4 point) harness for regular street driving which incorporates ASM (anti submarine) technology. I've had 5 point belts in street driven cars previously and using a sub belt gets annoying really quickly. Using a 5 point without ASM and without the sub belt is dangerous. http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/SchrothASMII.wmv

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior067-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior069-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior066-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Here's a fairly recent video of why you should have good safety protection on track (or anytime actually). No one thinks it can happen to them but it can. The driver of the second car didn't see the flagman.

Granted these are racecars but the same thing could happen to us at an HPDE or open track day. They might be going faster than our cars but I'll bet ours weigh more.

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't seen every flag station on every single lap I've made. The HPDE groups I run in are full of relatively inexperienced people trying to learn a lot in a short time while an instructor talks to them. Something like this could easily happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbBNfrcZ_GY

[NOT A TA]

So you think you might want a career in cage building eh? Well try cramming yourself into an uncomfortable position under the dash and then welding a few inches from your face while breathing the smoke from welding. Of course your customers expect a perfect bead on every weld so try not to flinch or it might not look perfect.

I gotta give a lot of credit to those of you who do this for a living. First you need to be a metalurgist,catortionist, fabricator, and then weld with surgical precision in a smelly cramped evironment.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior073-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

The passengers seat arrived and as you can see it's much taller than the drivers. So much taller (and wider) that it will not fit in the car without something being modified or the seat exchanged for a smaller one. The shoulder supports and head halo of the wider seat will not fit within the confines of the cage even when the seat is pushed over till it hits the transmission tunnel. Also the top of the head halo hits the ceiling bar before the seat can be straightened to an upright position.

Somethings going to have to change. A smaller passenger seat will probably be the most likely answer. The smaller seat may also have to be combined with mods to the seat or cage. You can see the height difference in the pic below.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior074-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Today we decided there's no easy way to get the 18" passenger seat into the car. The larger right side of the head halo (remember these are primarily used only for the driver and mostly for the left turn crowd) combined with the additional height and width is just to much seat to fit safely within the confines of the cage without serious alterations to the seat.

The drivers seat will not fit easily in my cage either in stock form. Now so there's no confusion Kirkey DOES NOT recommend modifying the seat. There might be a compromise in the structural integrity of the seat. Kirkey racing will be happy to make you a custom seat. That said I decided to make an executive decision to modify the drivers seat.

Joe will be adding a piece of stock to the shoulder area where the head halo bolts to the seat. The seat as it is made at the factory allows two mounting positions, one centered and one to the left. The area where the center and left shoulder halo attaching bolts attach has enough room for another hole to the right but the right shoulder hole area doesn't have enough material. Adding a piece of aluminum will allow us to drill a new set of holes to the right of center. This combined with a slightly offset sitting position (to the right of center in relation to the steering column) will hopefully allow us to get the seat within the cage providing maximum safety.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior082-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

In the pic below you can see how wide the head halo is. the helmet is about 10" wide and there's a couple inches on each side before the helmet will touch the pads. The cage is 39" at the ceiling between the bars where they go across the top of the doors. It's going to be a tight fit to get the 2 seats in even with a smaller passenger seat.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior080-1.jpg

[gt1guy]

Glad to see you doing it right. Good job. And keep posting, hopefully others will learn from this.

Kevin

[NOT A TA]

Thanks gt1guy!

Well the modifications to the drivers seat have been made. About 1/2" of the top plate of the halo on the very left was trimmed off. If there's a strength compromise because of removing that it's probably minimal as the halo will be attached directly to the cage. I forgot to take a pic of that but if you scroll back to my last post there's a pic looking straight down on the plate I'm refering to.

The 1st pic (shown below) shows the section modified to allow halo placement to the right of center. A piece of aluminum stock was welded to the area where the halo attaches to the shoulder section from behind and the bottom pic shows the same view from the front (drivers sitting position) without the padded cover for the occpant in place.

My guess is that Kirkey allows the halo to be placed left of center since the seat is used primarily in NASCAR where they turn left and when cornering many drivers instinctivly lean left. Since all of the Road courses I've been to run clockwise there's mostly right hand corners so if anything I'll mostly want to lean a bit to the right so I don't think there'll be a problem. The left side of the Halo is closer to the helmet now but doesn't seem like it will bother me.

So we proceded to get the seat(with me in it) into the position I'll want to be in while driving. Placing the seat just slightly off center of the column to the right so the seat will be within the cage. Then took some measurements and made some marks on the cage for the placement of the seat mounting tabs and the door bars .

As a side note, the halo/cage interference requiring mods and seat offset described here is due to the way the 2nd gens windows tilt in. 1st gens have a wider roof and more upright windows so fitment would be easier. There's a couple 1st gens at the shop we measured.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior083-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior084-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

We proceded to get the seat(with me in it) into the position I'll want to be in while driving. Placing the seat just slightly off center of the column to the right so the seat will be within the cage. Then took some measurements and made some marks on the cage for the placement of the seat mounting tabs and the door bars .

A string is used to determine the angle of the door bar so that the tube will pass between the shoulder and elbow of the driver. Marks are seen on the tubing on the pic below.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior086-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

With the door bar in place and the seat bolted into position we see in the pic below the desired seating position. Not being a very tall person (5'6") the combination of moving the seat forward and raising the seating position a little higher than I sat in the stock seat (couldn't see the apex of certain corners at certain tracks over the hood scoop) placed me in a position where proper placement of a straight door bar would be on too steep of an angle so the door bar has a bend allowing the bar to run between the elbow and shoulder as most sanctioning bodies recommend.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior092-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Here you can see how the side of the seat is attached to the door bar. A tab is welded to the bar and the shoulder support is bolted through it in such a manner that if there's a side impact the bolts are not likely to puncture the driver.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior095-1.jpg

[bbcc]

I have to say, I love build threads with alot of pictures and explinations, and I love it when things are done right. Not alot of dudes will post thorough step by step pictures of thier builds. Whether they are lazy or are hessitant to show off the stuff behind the scenes because they know it's been done wrong. Kudo's to you for laying out the cash in the name of safety, for doing things right, and for taking some freaking cool build pics.

Cheers, Ryer.

[NOT A TA]

Thanks Ryer! I've been trying to keep up with posting the steps along the way, good or bad, speaking of bad I'll be sending back the 18" passenger seat tomorrow for a 16" seat and even that one may not fit! These seats are big compared to regular "race" seats, the shoulder and head supports are much wider than regular seats.

Mounting of the drivers seat continues while we wait for the new passenger seat to arrive. In the pic below you can see the seat is lined up with the mark on the tubing at the corner on the bottom of the seat. The flat section under the drivers butt is bolted to a flat piece of steel welded across the seat supports and there's tubing welded into place for the front seat mounting positions.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior097-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Measurements were taken for harness mounting positions previously when measuring for the door bar etc. and construction of the rear seat support and harness mounting section has begun. In the pics below the harness attachment plate is tacked into position.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior096-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior098-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

In the pics below you see a tube (seat support) notched to be welded at a right angle onto the floor to harness bar tube. It gets held in place by the cool tool shown in the next pic which is made of strong magnets used to hold tubing in place while working. If you ever wondered how they hold the tube at the perfect angle to weld this is one of the tools used.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior100-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior101-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

I hope to eventually run in a Land Speed Racing class at somewhere around 200 MPH. Classes at those speed levels require full door nets, not just a window net as some other types of racing currently require at certain speeds. The nets can't be farther out than the middle of the roll cage tubing.

In order to accomodate the proper placement of the door net, the top of the seat halo required modifications to bring the side by the window in far enough to allow the net to be placed properly. A section of the halo was cut out and the halo rewelded.This also allowed changing the angle of the halo a bit to be more in line with the drivers helmet. Seats may be custom built from scratch if desired so modifications to these seats do not change their ability to "pass tech" as long as the seat is structuraly sound and attached properly to the cage. The seats far exceed the classes I can run in now, and those I might run in the future as well.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior103-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior105-1.jpg

[Bow Tie 67]

Very nice work, it looks like you'll need to oil yourself up to get in.

[NOT A TA]

Thanks Bow Tie!, and ya although I haven't needed lube yet it's a tight squeeze. (Insert your favorite former lady friend joke here haha) The car's got a tilt column so I can get in and out but will be looking into a Q/release mechanism for the steering wheel.

Joe fabbed the door bar to give me as much room as possible while retaining the stock deluxe door panels. You can see in the pic below how close the bar is to the door panel (without rubbing) and how it actually bows out over the original armrest. The pic was taken looking straight down by the side of the seat. Combined with the sill bar which ties the main hoop to the A piller support the 2 bars provide a lot of side impact protection. I really didn't want to hollow the doors out and go with the three horizontal with vertical bars route for side impact like a NASCAR car.

Certain sanctioning bodies do not allow removal of the factory side impact door bars (inside the door) even when there is a roll cage incorporating door bars so check your rule book before removing them. I'd planned on removing the factory bars to help offset the weight of the cage but decided not to after reading the rules of the various sanctioning groups.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior114-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

While waiting for the smaller passenger seat to arrive Joe had some time between other customers cars to fab up some brackets for the fire system bottles. I decided the bottles would be mounted in the backseat area over the center hump section. Joe welded in a bracket that will allow me to attach the round bottle holding brackets that come with the systems.

I am not an suspension/steering or safety guru but tried to look at it from a common sense point of view so the following statements are just my personal opinion.

The bottles would be most protected should an impact occur by being centered in the vehicle. This also helps reduce tubing routing in areas where the tubes might get pinched during an impact. Keeping the activation cables centered in the vehicle also helps prevent the cable from being damaged in an impact.

By using the area over the hump the weight will be pretty low in the vehicle aiding in keeping the center of gravity low. By keeping the weight between the front and rear wheels it shouldn't have as much an impact on cornering traction. Adding weight behind the axle seems like it would create a "swinging" effect when cornering.

Placing the bottles over the hump will also leave me the spaces where the rear seat bottoms are to use for other items I might want to mount in the passenger compartment later such as the battery, cool shirt cooler, or other items.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior111-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior113-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Since we're still waiting for the passenger seat to arrive Joe went ahead on some other metal fab. and welding work I wanted done.

If the car ever has mechanical woes, gets stuck in a sand trap (or wrecked) during an off track excursion I want it to be able to be towed back to the pits without the car being damaged worse than it was when it stopped. Also since it's now going to be much more difficult to get in and out of the car, driving the car into my enclosed trailer would then provide a real challenge climbing in and out of the car. Therefore a winch will probably be necessary. I've driven this car on trips as long as 4,000 miles but prefer to trailer to track events in case of rain or any problems. Since I usually go alone it's mostly a piece of mind thing that I'll always be able to get home.

To provide a place for easy hook ups for the track towing guys or winching the car into the trailer I had some ideas for tow hooks. They aren't required for the classes I currently run in but as I progress, the upper level class regulations may require them. It's recommended that the hooks be able to take the full weight of the car. Just imagine how much force is needed to pull a car sunk up to the floorboards/rockers out of a sand trap.

I discussed my thoughts with Joe and we came up with a front hook positioned where the center splash pan bolt usually goes. This is attached to a large bracket which spans the area between the framerails and is bolted in place at the ends of the front subframe so that it can be removed if desired.

The rear hook presented more of a challenge and tying the rear framerails with a fabricated bracket with the stock tank in place looked difficult (read expensive) and would either require bracketing visible from behind the car or require modifications to the body panels to allow the hook access to structural members.

We decided to mount a single rear hook to a rear framerail. I don't have a lot of faith in the strength of a rail to pull a car after seeing tie down tow hooks rip slots in cars frames that are trailered etc. and so Joe came up with a great idea of drilling all the way through the top and bottom of the frame, welding reinforcements in place as well as a place to thread the hook in (nut) on the bottom and then allowing nutting the top of the shaft of the hook on the top of the frame in the trunk. I think it will be plenty strong if needed and like most of the items in this thread exceeds the rulebook requirements and recommendations even for classes I might move up to.

Both of the tow hooks can be removed at any time should I desire a more "street" look to the car. They won't take long to reinstall for track days. There is a small weight penalty for the front bracket (I'll weigh it later) way out beyond the front wheels (where I don't want weight) but the rear hook setup doesn't weigh much. As usual heres some pics!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior118-1.jpg

Please don't laugh at my old radiator support, I finally found a nicer one to prep, paint, and install when I get time.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior117-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior116-1.jpg

The rear hook shown below was being mocked up when the pic was taken, it will be about an inch lower when positioned for use so the rear splash pan shouldn't be damaged by straps or chains if the hook is needed.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior123-1.jpg

[rlplive]

Incredible, nothing better than staying safe if you do end up crashing. Awesome car.

[NOT A TA]

Well the passenger seat got shipped to the chassis shop I got it through in Delaware by mistake so Joe had time between other cars to do another little fabrication job while it gets shipped to me in CT.

When I'm strapped into the full containment seat I won't be able to reach much so I had Joe fab up a place for the most important thing if it's needed, the fire system activation knobs. Getting out of the car is a project now, and if there's fire involved I need to be sure I can get the systems activated allowing me (and passenger) as much time as possible to get out.

I sat in the car and thought about where I'd want the knobs. I held my arm in a relaxed position to determine how high(up and down) and far (forward and back) I'd want the knobs. I decided to have them right next to my right hand between the drivers seat and shifter. I chose this place for several reasons trying to keep worst case scenarios in mind (upside down,pinned in seat, broken bones, dirt in eyes, on fire etc).

These are in no particular order.

1. If the car was full of smoke or I'm blinded for some reason I can just feel for the knobs.

2. If I crash and I'm pinned I wouldn't be able to reach them if they were on or under the dash.

3. If I crash really bad and have broken bones or whatever the only body functions I'd need to activate the systems is my right wrist and hand. I've had several broken bones over the years and its no fun moving if any of your body parts are broken. I broke my spleen once and you really don't want to move then. Internal injurys are unbelievably painfull.

4. The passenger/navigator can reach the knobs to activate the systems should I be unconcious or unable to move.

5. Being centered in the car the pull knobs and activator cables are less likely to be damaged and non functional after a wreck.

6. The shorter the cables are the less likely that they would be inoperable after a wreck

7. The drivers left arm is much more likely to be pinned or injured in an accident.

So Joe fabbed up a bracket to mount the pull stops to, and I had him leave me some extra space to mount fuel shotoffs, ignition shutoffs, nitrous activation switches, etc.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior137-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior141-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

One more little fab job involves the seat belts. Earlier we saw how there were multiple mounting positions for the shoulder harnesses for different height occupants. The pics below show the brackets for hip belt attachment.

There's been a lot of research done on seatbelt anchoring positions and there are recommended angles for the shoulder and hip belts. Schroth sends a CD rom with the purchase of harnesses showing the angles which are considered optimal according to the most recent studies. I'm not giving the details as this thread may be viewed for many years and recommendations may change. They may also vary based on the brand, model, width, number of straps, and whether they utilize ASM technology. That said, read your instructions!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior162-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Well the passenger seat came in , was modified, and the cage is done! I picked up the car and brought it back to my shop for all the finishing touches. Joe did a beautifull job on the final welds and modifying the passenger seat to fit within the cage

Now I get to disassemble the seats (to get them out of the car) remove the rest of the heavy factory sound deadening insulation, clean the floor, paint the floor and cage, reinstall the package tray, set up the fire systems, rewire the fuel and ignition switches, modify and install the carpet, reassemble and install the seats, install the harnesses, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

This is the way it looks now before I begin my part of the job.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior142-1.jpg

This pic shows how the drivers head halo is mounted to the diagnal roof bar.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior143-1.jpg

pic of seats from the rear

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior150-1.jpg

Good thing it's got a tilt wheel! Still going to need Q/release for steering wheel I think.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior155-1.jpg

Passenger side is a bit easier to get in and out but I think we're going to need to shorten the right side of the head halos and modify the thigh part of the seat that sticks up higher than the side bars. I'm going to leave them for now and see how much of a pain it is to get in and out after getting used to it.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior158-1.jpg

Random pics

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior151-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior165-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/The14Carinterior163-1.jpg

[69Nova]

Very cool. Cant wait to see it done. Also wouldn't mind hearing what you think you would do differently if you had to do it again.

[jackfrost]

this is a great thread. I won't have a race car, but you've given me some things to think about.

one question - have you thought about a way to activate the fire system by a track worker outside the car, in case you are unconscious? sort of like an electrical shutoff switch

[NOT A TA]

Andrew: When I get everything finished up and get to use the car a bit I'll make suggestions for things I might have done differently.

Dave: I just got the second fire system (10 lb) in and have to talk to the folks at Firefox about their recommendations for best system configurations. I'll ask them about external activation possibilities. Thats an excellent idea!

Here's a link to more (better quality) pics of some of the work they did on the cage and other bracketry at JW.

http://www.jwracing-fab.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=191

[NOT A TA]

Finally got some time today to start reinstalling the interior. I've decided to wait till I get everything figured out before painting the cage. There's a lot of climbing in and out over the bars and through the main hoop to work on the backseat area. Plus all the parts need to go over and through several times trying to figure out how the heck you're gonna get them into position.

I'd brought one of the rear quarter interior plastic panels (the piece on the sides of the rear seat) to JW racing when they started building the cage so they could set the cage up so I could retain them and not need to modify them. I'm glad I did! I doubt I'd be able to use them if I hadn't provided them, they just barely fit through the openings and into position.

One thing I forgot to mention when I dropped the car off was that I'd be installing the stock carpet back into the car. Some of bars for the seat mounts and the bar that goes over the hump were too low to slide carpet under them. I had to modify the floor and hump a bit with a prybar to gain enough clearance. This was after removing the padded backing on the carpet in the tunnel area and removing all factory sound deadening. If you get a cage like this and want to use carpeting make sure there's at least 1/2" clearance under all tubes to the floor pan.

Pic below shows the rear plastic panels back in place and rear carpet fitted. Installing carpet requires cutting access for each tube thats welded to the floorpan or frame. I decided to have the access cuts on the transmission hump where the seats and console would hide the cut lines. This also provides access to the hump for safety harness mounting installation holes. You can see the cuts in the pic but I'll put a couple dabs of glue there when everythings done so you won't be able to see the cut lines.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/12/The14Carinterior174-1.jpg

[icebird84]

my first thought was over kill but excellent work for street car but not over kill for race car

excellent work keep it up

[NOT A TA]

It's been over 3 months since I've updated this. I closed my store and moved 1500 miles. It took several trips to move all my car crap and tools etc. So I didn't work on the car for a while.

I'm back at it now though and this weeks project was installing a rear seat back into the car in such a confined area. I like the look of spartan race car interiors but not for this car so I set out to see what I could do about reinstalling the rear seat to give the interior a more stock look than it would have with aluminum panels, fabric, or carpet.

Let me be clear. NO ONE WILL EVER USE THE REAR SEAT! It would be very, very dangerous even if anyone could somehow get in to that area. That includes children, this car is now a 2 seater.

I started by trying to fit the seat bottoms into their positions but there wasn't enough space between the main hoop cross bar on the floor and the trunk seperation panel. The metal seat frame was gonna have to be modded or ditched. So I took the one of the seat bottoms apart. (I'd recovered them a couple years ago so they're basicly new.) I looked at the framework to see if the seat could be modded to fit and snap into positioned. It looked like it could be done by welding a couple new rods in and cutting out a couple to make the seat shorter front to back.

That isn't an option for me right now as my welder was stolen and I haven't replaced it so on to plan B. I decided to get some foam and see if I could just cut foam and stuff it into the seat covers to give it the right shape. After a few pieces were made I set it in position and test fitted it. Seemed pretty good but was hard to tell for sure without the seat back in place.

[NOT A TA]

I got the seat back out and looked at it and the car where the down bars to the trunk route through the rear seat back area. It would also have to be modded somehow. I got more foam out and cut several pieces into the shape of the seatback and attempted to do the same thing I'd done for the bottom but it didn't seem to work out very well. Gravity was against me and without anything to back the foam and stretch the seatcover over it just kept sagging and looking wrinkled. So.........

I figured I'd see if there was any possibility of stuffing the seatback framework into position. I took some rough measurements of where the tubing would go through the seatback, marked the seat, and got out the cutoff tool and started cutting. Because of the firebottle mounting the seatback would need to be thin at the bottom so I cut out all the springs that push the lower part out and cut the sections where the tubing would have to pass through. With these mods I was just barely able to fit the seatback through the cage and into position.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior198-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior199-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

I installed the seat base and one firebottle to mock things up then the next step was to modify the seatcover and reinstall it into the seatback. Since the bottom of the seatback was now thinner I decided to make the top thinner also to keep the same look to it. I used some zip ties to draw it together and then removed the Hog Rings so they wouldn't rattle later without any tension on them. It still springs like factory but it's thinner. The springs push the material tight. Because the seatback is now thinner, hog rings couldn't be used to hold the material like the factory does so I used some zip ties.(remember the seat will just be there for looks.)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior203-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior204-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

So it was time to get the parts all in the backseat area in positionat the same time. With the seatback covered again both seat bases done and in place it was time to mock up the firebottle mounting. Note that the round bottle brackets DO NOT come with bolts to hold them to whatever brackets you fabricate. They're 1/4" SAE fine thread and I picked up some grade 5's in 1" length along with lockwashers. (checked with Firefox to be sure grade 5 was OK) Put all the brackets in place and slid the bottles in to test fit.

Note: It would have been better if the mounting plates for the bottle brackets were a bit farther forward and the entire welded in bracket could have been about 2" lower.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior217-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior213-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

I need to whip up something to cover the area where the rear carpet doesn't cover the hump now, readjust the seatback upholtery a little and figure out something to finish the area where the tube penetrates the upholstery. I'll work on those things and install them when I remove everything to paint the cage. putting all that stuff in takes a while so I'll do the finish work during final assembly. I may end up having to remove the seatback cover and get something sewn into the upholstery where the tubing goes through.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior215-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Setting up the fire systems is todays topic. First up will be the info about the 6.5 lb aqueous foam system for the passenger compartment. The system is made by Firefox.


6.5 lbs of aqueous foam agent is inside of a bladder in the bottle. The bottle is pressurized with nitrogen. When the knob is pulled (push or pull types available) it releases a spring loaded plunger in the activator head on the bottle. The plunger pops through a special metal bulkhead on the end of the bladder in the tank (similar to the way you spear one of those little juice box drinks). Since there's pressurized nitrogen in the bottle it squeezes the bladder (now that there's an exit for the fluid) forcing the fluid through the tubes to the nozzles. The plunger is not straw like it is just a plunger that bursts the seal releasing the fluid.The fluid fills the actuator head, the tubes, and then the nozzles. The system is fully pressurized, applying the firefighting agent .4 seconds after activation.

The fluid is delivered by 1/4" .028 wall annealed stainless steel tubing using AN fittings to the nozzles. The nozzles with this system have 3 slots which spray the fluid 160 degrees. The kit comes with a filled bottle, bottle brackets, coiled tubing, AN fittings, 2 nozzles, parts list and special stickers.

[NOT A TA]

There are NO directions supplied with the system, instead there is a sheet of paper instructing you to call in to the company for instructions. When you call in you are given a lot of information. They tell you about actuator installation, actuator plumbing set up, how the tubing is configured, nozzle placement recommendations, nozzle positioning, actuator cable and knob setup, cable adjustments, and the proper tecniques for installing all these things. Too much for me to remember a week later when I finally got to the task at hand. Anyone installing one of these systems should be prepared to take DETAILED notes when they call for their instructions!I didn't take notes and paid for it later.

I'm giving a lot of details and info in this section since there aren't any directions included. This way someone in the future doing a search on installation might get a question answered when the company isn't open. Most of us play/work on our cars at night and on the weekends. I feel the company should have included instructions which also mentioned the speciality tools necessary to complete the install.

A week after calling in I finally found time to start. So I laid out the parts to try to jog my memory. That worked pretty well until I realized I couldn't remember what they said about the AN fittings and the tubing. So I called again (luckily it was during working hours) and was reminded that there was supposed to be a single flare 37 degrees put on the tube ends. I said "oh ya! Thanks!" and went for my flare tools. Well don't ya know it, flare tools for brake lines etc are 45 degrees so they won't do it. I surf the net and call the company back about the flare. They say no the 45 won't work, need to buy a tool to make 37. GREAT! Now I have to spend $100.00 and wait till next week for the tool to arrive.

So I started mocking up the system and bending tubing. Since I will have a navigator on some of the events I'll be running I'm installing a nozzle on each side of the car angled toward the center of the car at about a 30 degree angle. These nozzles will spray up under the dash on the firewall and in occupants footwell areas. Each nozzle will be just in front of the cage where the a piller tube is. In the pic shown you see a card I stuck in one of the nozzle slots to gauge the spray pattern. You do not want the stuff bouncing off the lower dash and hitting you in the face. If the cars on fire you've already got enough problems!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior221-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

The annealed stainless tubing is soft enough so that gentle curves can be formed by hand but to prevent kinking on tighter curves a tubing bender worked well. Patience is the key to tight curves without kinking which would reduce fluid flow.

A 10' length of tubing comes with the 6.5 lb system and is probably enough for race cars however for my application it was not enough. luckily I had more tubing that came with the larger system I'd purchased for the engine and fuel areas.

I considered trying to run the tubing under the carpeting to hide it which might have allowed installing the system with the 10' of tubing it came with. In hindsite I should have plumbed the system prior to carpet install. At this point though It would be a real pain trying to do it that way so I continued. If I take the whole interior out one day I'll probably reroute the tubing to hide it for a cleaner look.

I formed the tubing to run along the inside of the roll cage tubing at the floor level. This way it would be protected during an impact and shouldn't be vulnerable to pinching or kinking.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior219-1.jpg

The instructions I got were to make sure to tilt the nozzle enough to prevent the Gem Foam from hitting the dash. Do not try bending the tubing by tilting it with the nozzle in position, (for extra leverage) as the ferrule might not be able to take the stress. Damage to the part and yourself possible/likely. Now I'll need to add a ferrule to the tubing order.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior220-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

The actuator head needs to be in position on the bottle in order to configure the tubing and cable routing. Remove the shipping cap and thread on the activator head by hand until you feel it stop. LEAVE THE SAFETY CLIP IN PLACE. The clip prevents the plunger from being able to pierce the bladder seal.

The head is designed so that you can back it off as much as 1/2 turn to allow routing/placement of the tubing and cable. By turning the bottle in the mounts and unscrewing the head a little you should be able to find a position where the label and gauge are visable, (for tech inspection) allow easy plumbing, and smooth operation of the activation cable.

Cable install should be done first before plumbing the tubing into the activator head to allow smoothest action of the cable. Mount the knob end of the cable into your desired location first. To do this just unscrew the knob from the end of the cable, remove safety clip, then unscrew the top adjusting nut. Put the cable through your mounting hole, thread the top adjusting nut on loosely, then put the safety clip through the hole in the cable and screw the knob on. Be sure the knob is on snug or it will affect the cable adjustments you are about to do.

The placement of the cable should be done so it allows the smoothest operation of the cable. There is a large hole in the side of the head where the cable attaches. It has a blue plug for shipping. Adjusting the bottle and backing off the head a little so the cable lines up. Trying to make the cable have sharp bends in it will increase the resistance in the cable making it harder to activate. I'd planned on hiding the cables under the carpet however I realized that the 4' cables I recieved wouldn't work well if I did that. (longer cables are available and If I ever pull the interior back out I may opt to do that so I can hide them) I want it to be as easy as possible to pull the knob because you never know what condition you might be in while trying to pull it.

The cable should have 3/4" of inner cable sticking out of the end that fits into the activator. To accomplish this you hold the cable in position next to the head and measure then use the adjusting nuts on the other end of the cable (where the knob mounts) to change how much inner wire protrudes. It is important to hold the cable in its final position because bends in the cable affect how much will protrude. Once you've got it adjusted for 3/4" install the safety clip into the pull/push knob to prevent movement of the cable then slide the other end of the cable into the activator and tighten the allen head set screw that holds it in place.

Activation of the system will uccur when the cable is pulled because the inner cable prevents the plunger from moving. By pulling the cable out of the way it allows the spring loaded plunger to burst the seal. Once the cable is properly mounted (with the knob safety clip in place) the activator head safety clip may be removed. DO NOT TRY TO REMOVE THE ACTIVATOR CABLE FROM THE HEAD WITHOUT THE SMALL SAFETY CLIP IN PLACE.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior222-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior230-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior223-1.jpg

There are 2 ports on opposite sides of the head which can be used to plumb the tubing into the activator head. One is sealed with an allen head plug and one has a red shipping cap. Use one and plug the other. I plumbed the tubing out to a T and then to the nozzles. It is recomended by Firefox to use teflon tape on threads. Since I'm waiting for the flare tool this is just mocked up so no tape is used.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior228-1.jpg

[hectore3]

Excellent thread here and a very nice car. I really have learned something.

[jackfrost]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/The14Carinterior220-1.jpg

dude, this is a terrible safety thread! you already injured yourself! :razz: ;)

kidding aside, is there any way to test this system when you're done? i'd be leery of installing something this complicated and important with no way of testing it. maybe just like a CO2 cartridge with water in it, or something... ?

looking good. very professional.

[NOT A TA]

dude, this is a terrible safety thread! you already injured yourself! :razz: ;)

kidding aside, is there any way to test this system when you're done? i'd be leery of installing something this complicated and important with no way of testing it. maybe just like a CO2 cartridge with water in it, or something... ?

looking good. very professional.

Isn't that the point of a safety thread. So you guys don't hurt yourselves like I do! Be carefull not to bang your head on the cage. Notice all the tape on the edges of everything! I've banged and scraped myself up pretty good doing this. You see more and more padding and tape on the corners as the pics progress. And watch your step getting out or ya trip on the door bars!

Once you know how it works it seems like there's no way it wouldn't work but I blow air through the tubes anyway just to make sure there's no debris that could clog the nozzles.

[NOT A TA]

Todays episode involves the routing of fuel lines. I needed to move the lines before I can install the fire system in the engine compartment. This car is carbed and uses a Holley Blue pump with a fram canister filter near the tank.

I had originally run the fuel lines up the inside of the framerails (to keep them away from the heat of the sidepipes) and then up the firewall to a regulator, pressure gauge, and then the carb. RUNNING THE LINE UP THE FIREWALL DOES NOT PASS TECH! I found this out the hard way every place I wanted to run the car. They all said fix it for next time. Also THE FUEL LINE CAN NOT BE RUN ON THE INSIDE OF THE FRAMERAIL IN THE BELLHOUSING AREA.

Well for the uninformed like I was, this is to keep us from cutting the fuel lines wide open if there's a failure of the Flexplate/convertor or flywheel/clutch and everything explodes at high revs.

So I rerouted the lines and moved the regulator, I'm not really satisfied with the line from the regulator to the pressure gauge so I may redo that section. The first pic shows the WRONG place to mount the lines and regulator. I've seen it done on many cars like this which is probably why I didn't give it a second thought when I did it.

WRONG PLACEMENT OF FUEL LINE AND REGULATOR

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

These pics are the way I came up with to route the line so it wouldn't be close to the exhaust and wouldn't get hit by shrapnel should the bellhousing explode. We'll see if it passes tech at the next event. Need a couple more clamps and I may make a new hardline that has the 180 degree curve to the gauge in it. I think the flexible hose will want to kink restricting flow.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior255-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior258-1.jpg

EDIT : I decided I didn't like the sharp curve in the hose to the gauge/carb feed (afraid it would kink when warmed up) so I made another hardline with that curve bent into the hardline. Fuel starvation would be bad!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior290-1.jpg

[81 trans-am]

Car looks amazing. As for the fuel system have you seen the plates that hook to the carb studs to hold the regulator. I think they are a lot cleaner. I always thought you could run the fuel line along the firewall but you could not attach it to the firewall.

And I wish I would pull up behind you at A light and see the backs of those seats through the window. I would not mess with you.

Keep up the progress.
Karl

[NOT A TA]

Car looks amazing. As for the fuel system have you seen the plates that hook to the carb studs to hold the regulator. I think they are a lot cleaner. I always thought you could run the fuel line along the firewall but you could not attach it to the firewall.

And I wish I would pull up behind you at A light and see the backs of those seats through the window. I would not mess with you.

Keep up the progress.
Karl


Thanks for the compliment! I have not seen the regulator/fuel feed bracket you mentioned. Do you know the brand? Have a pic maybe?

I bought the one thats on there when I was installing the engine preparing to go to some races on vacation. I had a dual feed setup already and when I went to install it I found out Demons have different threads where the lines attach to the carb so I got that one quick from summit. I can't flip it because it hits an intake runner and I can't raise the carb any higher.

Tech officials at several NHRA tracks and an NMCA race told me they didn't want to see fuel lines between the engine and firewall or on the insides of frame rails.

I'm not sure if you can see the seats from behind. The rear window's tinted pretty dark, probably wouldn't see them unless the sun was in front of me. Kinda counting that to keep the law from giving me grief. Actually the seats are at a fab shop while I'm doing the current stuff so I can get the head halos made smaller and make it easier to get in and out of the car. Side visibility was kind of difficult for street driving when trying to look out the passenger side from the drivers seat. I was looking through one side of the drivers halo and both sides of the passengers.

Ya nobody wants to mess with the car on the street but they don't realize it's nowhere near as quick as it looks. With the current 2.41 high speed rear in it, its no stoplight terror! LOL I'm doing the safety stuff first then comes big power and 5 speed!

[NOT A TA]

Now it's time to mock up the 10lb fire system. The system is intended to be used with 4 nozzles in the engine compartment when used in conjunction when there is another system for the passenger compartment. Firefox recommended that 2 nozzles be placed high
in the rear of the engine compartment and 2 down low in the front corners.

I wanted to use 3 in the engine area and one for the fuel system in the rear where the elec fuel pump and filters are. They recommended 2 in the rear of the engine and 1 in front. I then spoke to a tech official from the ECTA about my plans and he said it would be ok.

Since the car has a shaker hood scoop the carb area would be hard to spray with nozzles high in the rear of the engine so I switched things around a bit to maximize the effectiveness of the 3 nozzles. The 2 in the rear are low and spray up on the front of the tranny and the back/sides of the engine while the 1 up top sprays the fuel lines, regulator, gauge, and carb from the front passenger side. That seemed like the most effective use of the nozzles. The 4th sprays over the rear axle at the fuel pump, filter, lines, and front of the gas tank. When I swap the engine and tranny so I can go reeeally fast I'll replumb the system to accomodate the changes.

Pics
I didn't want a lot of plumbing in the interior as I mentioned before so the feed for the engine compartment/fuel system system comes out of the actuator and goes through the floor under the passenger side rear seat pad. The 10 lb system comes with 3 T fittings, one of which is designed for going through a bulkhead so I used that one for the floor mount.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior237-1.jpg

The rear 2 slot nozzle is plumbed off of the T under the floor while the other 3 are fed off of the other side which is routed toward the front. In the following pic you can just see the nozzle peaking over the top of the axle in the center of the pic (hard to get under car pics without a lift)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior268-1.jpg

The tubing comes up the outside of the frame rail to protect it should there be a clutch/convertor explosion. There's a T fitting just before the frame mount. The nozzle is fed from the top of the T while the tubing continues forward from the other. Ya ya ya, I know i should clean off that little bit of surface rust and paint the frame mount. Not much for 39 years old eh! We'll see....maybe if I have time when I'm done with the important stuff before I put it on the ground.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior269-1.jpg

Tubing then runs up the frame to a T just behind the main crossmember. The 2 slot front nozzle is fed from the top of the T while the other rear 3 slot nozzle is fed from the other side. Tubing is routed under the engine on the crossmember to the other frame rail then back to the nozzle.

This pic shows the top front nozzle with card to judge spray pattern and you can also see the one down low in the rear.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior272-1.jpg

drivers side rear 3 slot nozzle

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior275-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

I didn't mention it but the tool and stainless I needed to finish the fire system arrived enabling me to mock up the 10 lb system.

The tool I purchased to make the 37 degree single flared ends on the tubing is a "PARKER ROLO-FLAIR" and is a hand held single flaring tool. A very nicely made tool that exceeded my expectations for an $85.00 tool. It has rotating clamp dies for 9 sizes of tubing and even comes with understandable concise instructions! The tool was purchased from Aircraft spruce. http://aircraftspruce.com/

So after the systems were all mocked up I took out all the tubes and flared the ends, teflon taped the threads on the fittings, and tightened everything into position then went back and put rubber lined support brackets on the tubes to hold them in position and keep them from rattling. If you've never bent your own tubing before it always takes longer than you think it will.

Anyway here's what you need to install the Firefox 6.5 or 10 lb system.
37 degree flaring tool

hand held tubing bender, prevents kinks when making sharp bends-if you have to buy one get a good one

flies, to take sharp edges off of inside and outside of tubes

32 T hacksaw (or pipe cutter)

Marker, so you can mark tubing-you'll bend a couple the wrong way if you try to do it from memory after crawling out from under the car.

Teflon tape for threads

zip ties, to temporarily hold tubing while you're fitting things

Clamps, to hold tubes, nozzles etc

The rest of the items in the pic are needed but most everyone that reads this probably has those tools around.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior271-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

OK..... This is a safety thread and so this is the obligatory "driveshaft safety loop" installment. Anyone who is going to modify their car for more power, quickness, speed, or do any type of racing/track time should have one. They're cheap and could save your car or your life. There are tech specs for them with most racing organizations so check the requirements for placement with the sanctioning bodies.

Remember the driveshaft is spinning thousands of RPM! You don't want your car to pole vault or have the driveshaft make your tranny tunnel look like a gorilla with a sledge hammer got under there! So if you don't already have one, get at least one! Here's a pic of mine just because I had the car up and was messing with it and checking the bolts. I may use a different one when I up the power and/or add a rear one.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior293-1.jpg

[hivewax]

you should remove the back seats... i don't see anybody fitting in there!!

[NOT A TA]

Hivewax, I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way but it's MY car. I've had tubbed/caged cars with no backseat and for this one I want it, just for looks. Your Mustang looks really nice! I'd like to see it before I start (get back to) my 66 coupe. I'm a few towns up I-95 from you now.

[hivewax]

cool. where are you located? i can probably stop by on the weekend if it's not too far. or, meet halfway at a show.

[NOT A TA]

Hivewax: You have a PM

Today I finished up securing the tubing for the 10 lb fire system with rubber coated clamps. Then I reconnected the battery and pushed some fuel through the lines (without being connected to the carb) to be sure no debris would get in the carb (I have a rear mounted filter before the elec pump). Disconnected battery and finished securing the fuel lines since the hose clamps I like to use finally came in.

Took the fire extinguisher bottles and brackets out. Then took the rear seat out and took it apart to bring the seatcover to be sewn to accomodate the roll cage holes. The Kirkey seats are out at a shop that does TIG work for some mods to make it easier to get in and out of the car. Next up is some electrical work so I can reach the fuel pump and MSD ignition toggles while strapped in the seat. They're currently mounted at the base of the dash but are very difficult to reach when the harnesses are snug. In an emergency they'd be hard to flip.

Bought the paint for the roll cage today! I'm getting close to being ready for paint!

[tazzz25906112]

Awesome work on the car John, now I know we're going to have to have that little conversation I mentioned a few weeks ago bud....
I'll try to call soon....

[NOT A TA]

I got the rear seatback cover back from the upholstery shop and since crawling over the cage and laying on my back with the seat supports poking mewhile my heads under the dash isn't my idea of fun, I played with the seat. Here's a couple pics of how the piece was sewn in and a quick test fit with the seatback roughly in place.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior318-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior316-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior321-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior320-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Still trying to avoid the upside down under dash electrical job I decided to tackle another task on the list while I had the car up on jacks that needed to be done. Tech inspectors look for leaks so they can keep fluids off the tracks which keeps the tracks safer. I had a couple small but pesky tranny leaks I had to keep after all the time.

I'm using a T-350 till I can scrape up the cash for a Keisler 5 speed setup and it was leaking from the filler tube and kickdown cable where they enter the trans. Transmissions has been one of the things I never got too involved in. I'd had 2 different shops who were supposed to fix the leaks when they had the car up on a lift for other issues. Neither one stopped the leaks! So now it was up to me.

So I got the O-rings for both pieces at a local tranny shop and did it myself. Can you believe the shops that were supposed to fix the leaks used blue RTV? !!! The trickiest part of the job is getting the cable off and back onto the linkage that goes into the transmission. Make sure you disconnect the kickdown cable from the carb before tackling the job. Here's the pics

Do not try blue RTV to stop leaks here!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior302-1.jpg

Black RTV on the kickdown cable doesn't work either

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior304-1.jpg

Here's the tube. cleaned, painted and a new O-ring installed, the "proper" way to fix the leak. A new O-ring was also installed on the kickdown cable but no pic of that.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior306-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

The shop I had the seats at for further modifications and TIG welding wanted $500.00 for the job. While it probably would have been a nice job and pretty welding I decided not to have them do it. I just can't justify spending that much more money on these seats.

So I went with plan B and had a guy MIG them in a simple fashion for 200.00. Not as aestheticly pleasing as I would have liked (or done myself) but I'll work them a bit myself to make the job they did look more "finished". Here's a couple pics showing how they cut down the side of the seat base so they don't stick above the door bars of the cage and how they cut the sides of the head halo back. This will make it easier to get in the car (and out in a hurry if need be!) and give more side vision.

You'll notice the switches dangling and wiring in the footwell area as I've started the dreaded upside down, head under the dash, wiring job I've been avoiding.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior323-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior330-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior329-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

The switches I had located at the base of the dash were for the MSD and the electric fuel pump. I could reach them fine when I had regular seat belts (lap belts) but got hard to reach when I installed Schroth 4 point ASM harnesses. With the new 6 point harnesses and the Kirkeys it was just about impossible to get to them. So they had to be moved.

I had Joe leave an extra length of material where the fire stop pulls were located so that I could mount the switches there. I bent the bar stock down so the switches won't be accidently hit by my forearm shifting or whatever. Both switches can be operated by the navigator also. I replaced the existing wires with longer ones and rerouted the fuel pump wiring.

The pump wiring had no provision for the pump to stop if the engine stopped so while I was rewiring I rerouted the pump wires so I could install an oil pressure cut off switch (about $15.00). So now if the engine stalls from a crash or something (like being upside down) at least the fuel pump will shut off so it's not feeding fuel onto a fire or increasing the risk of fire.

Here's a pic of the old setup and then a couple pics of the new setup. I'm going to put something around the connections to prevent accidental shorts and dress it up a bit as well as plastic tubing around the wires.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior308-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior314-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior331-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Now that the interior components have all been installed or mocked up it's finally time to paint the cage! I removed the fire system pieces that are located in the passenger compartment as well as the backseat pieces. The Kirkeys are out at an interior shop having the padded material altered to conform to the changes. The rest of the interior panels, carpet, console, dash etc will all remain in the car during paint. Hopefully I can tape everything off and still be able to crawl in to paint the cage with a jamb gun.

I've spent the past 2 days cleaning the cage with wax and grease remover and then sanding the whole thing with 240 then 400 grit paper while bumping my head and getting cut up.

It's really hard to climb in there and work without getting banged up now that I've taken off the tape and pads on all the corners of the brackets etc., not very many comfortable positions to sit or kneel. One little slip or flinch from a bug in the eye and I get scraped or banged. And yes I've rounded all the corners and filed the sharp edges.

Humidity is very high since its been raining heavily for the past week so I'm running a dehumidifier in the garage to keep surface rust from starting if I can't get it painted quickly. Tomorrow I'll start taping everything off.

The cage looks pretty cool raw, I wonder if anyones ever polished one and clear coated it.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior351-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/The14Carinterior349-1.jpg

[81 trans-am]

That cage does look great naked. As for the regulator bracket check summit part # sum210250 and edl-8189. Im sure you could find better looking ones if you search for them.

I say take the tint off the back window and let everyone see the seats.

[NOT A TA]

81 TA: I'll check that out. Going to leave it for now. Have a track day scheduled at Sebring in a couple weeks and lots to do before then.

Painting the cage didn't go well. It's very difficult to work in the car with so much tubing in there.

First I tried masking off but that didn't work well at all. It's so confined in the back seat area that it was almost impossible to mask off. I finally gave up the idea of spraying it and decided to brush the paint on.

I used the PPG basecoat with hardner I'd planned on spraying. I tried different brushes and foam seemed to work the best but still looked like garbage. Also tried varying amounts of thinner trying to get it to flow out nicely. It came out crappy, so I sanded it smooth with 400 and put another coat. Then another coat, then sanded again and put another coat. I'm not happy with it and it was a lot of work. I probably spent 35 hours on it. It's going to stay that way for now, I've got a track day coming up. Maybe some winter when it's not so hot and humid (I'm in FL) I'll take out the windshield and backlite, yank the whole interior, then sand and shoot the cage. A semi flat or semi gloss black would have been a better color also as the metallics in the silver frost paint I used highlight the imperfections.

Here's the pics

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior363-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior370-1.jpg

[Vegas69]

Hit it with some scotch brite and clear coat it. :1st:

[The Stickman]

I still don't understand Why they don't want the fuel line inside the frame rail. I would think that would be the safest place for it. Unless they are worried about it leaking and not knowing it until it's to late because it's concealed. Also I never realized(probably told me and I forgot) you had a 2.41 rear gear. Do you like having it that tall? Or are you going with something different? Must be the reason for those great top speeds you have at the track. This is a great thread, I love how detailed you are

[NOT A TA]

Stick: Tech guys don't want to see the fuel lines where they can be damaged by converter/clutch/flexplate/flywheel explosions that could damage the lines.
I haven't run the new 2.41 on track yet just on the streets and highways. I had a 2.72 before for Road track and Top Speed stuff but want a bit more top end. I have a 3.73 and centerlines with ET Streets/skinnys for drag and around town. Eventually I'm going to switch to an overdrive but still running a T-350 with a shift kit and supercooler.

Vegas: I was thinking about that and may try it but I'm out of time so I've got to put the car together and do track prep for a NASA weekend at Sebring June 20-21. I lost a week messing with the paint. grrrrr

[The Stickman]

Stick: Tech guys don't want to see the fuel lines where they can be damaged by converter/clutch/flexplate/flywheel explosions that could damage the lines.
I haven't run the new 2.41 on track yet just on the streets and highways. I had a 2.72 before for Road track and Top Speed stuff but want a bit more top end. I have a 3.73 and centerlines with ET Streets/skinnys for drag and around town. Eventually I'm going to switch to an overdrive but still running a T-350 with a shift kit and supercooler.

Vegas: I was thinking about that and may try it but I'm out of time so I've got to put the car together and do track prep for a NASA weekend at Sebring June 20-21. I lost a week messing with the paint. grrrrr

Yea but wouldn't the lines be more protected in that instance. I mean if the lines are inside a boxed frame then there is protection there vs having them out in the open where debris could get them. I just don't understand their reasoning.

[NOT A TA]

OH OH OH ! I had the lines on the outside of the boxed section of the frame but facing the driveline (what I was calling the inside). Yes I believe you can run them enclosed inside of the boxed section of the frame but I'm not positive.

[NOT A TA]

While I was making a mess painting the cage I had the Kirkey seats out to the local upholstery shop so I could have them modify the seat padding to match the new contours of the modified sections of the seats. Bob of Bob Housley's Auto Upholstery did exactly what I wanted and a very nice job. Here's the pic!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior395-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Since the seats were gone I couldn't mock up the Harnesses before painting the rollbar. Now that the seats are back it's time to get them completed. The Schroth Profi II H harnesses I'm installing are for track days, test and tunes, and other "events". I'll use them on the street for now but eventually will probably install a set of 4 point Schroth harnesses with ASM technology.

I've had street cars with a sub belt and there's a strong urge to not use the sub belt on the street. Unfortunatly they're dangerous to use without the sub belt because in a serious accident you submarine under the rest of the harness. It may actually be safer to use a stock 3 point than a 5 or 6 point without the sub belt hooked up. Schroth has a bunch of cool crash dummy videos showing the effects of crashing and their ASM technology. These harnesses have the quick release attached to the sub so you really have no choise unless you disassemble the quick release and disable the sub belts.

When Joe welded up the cage I had him proving multiple mounting points for the shoulder mounts and the lap belt on the door side for the driver and passenger. I still needed to provide mounts for the sub belts and the lap belt transmission tunnel mounts for both occupants. I temporarily installed the seats and marked the positions where the harnesses should be bolted to the body. Then since I can't get anything under the carpet to sink my hole punch into I melted holes in the carpet where the harnesses needed to be bolted. (Every manufacturer of harnesses has their own recommendations so I'm leaving out the "where to" on the mounting points. Schroth includes an installation and adjustment DVD) Once the holes were melted in the correct spots I drilled out the mounting holes.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior375-1.jpg

The floor of the car is just sheetmetal where the sub belts are bolted so to spread out the stress if there's an impact I made a couple plates and gave them the Krylon touch.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior380-1.jpg

The drivers side lap belt to transmission tunnel bolt hole was also just in sheetmetal so I used one of the reinforcing plates that comes with the harnesses. You can see the stock belt reinforcement in the pic. On the passenger side the mounting hole ended up being drilled through the stock reinforcement so I just bolted it through it. Drivers seat is several inches forward of the passenger to suit me.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior387-1.jpg

Here's a couple pics showing why I made my own plates for the sub belts. There wasn't enough space to use the Schroth supplied plates without modifying them anyway, so I just made my own. Ya Ya Ya YA, someday I'm gonna finish scraping off the rest of the factory undercoating but right now I need to finish up this project so I can go to the track! A couple of the nuts weren't tightened when I took one of the pics so don't think I've only got a couple threads holding to save my life.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior385-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior372-1.jpg

Here's a couple pics showing the harnesses and attachment points. Passenger side shoulder mounting will have multilpe mounting points available to suit different height passengers and is one of the reasons I chose the clip on harnesses.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior382-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior378-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Now that everything has been built, modified, painted, fitted etc. It's finally time to put everything back into the interior. I started by cleaning up the back area since it will be almost impossible to get back there. I gave the rear window tint a good double cleaning with Plexus since there will be no way to clean the window without taking at least one seat out of the car (a 2-3 hour job removing and reinstalling). Installed the package tray and rear seatback first. It came out well with the seatback alterations.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior381-1.jpg

Then I installed all of the fire system equipment in the passenger compartment. The under car stuff was already complete so now the fire systems are fully operational. I hope I never need them. You can see the multiple shoulder mounts for the passenger also in this pic.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior383-1.jpg

Then I installed the rear seat bottoms. So now everything behind the main hoop is done! No more crawling through the maze to work back there YAHOO!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior390-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

It's time to install the front seats! I put the passenger side lower seat into place only to find out that the course length adjusters for the sub belts wouldn't fit through the slots provided in the Kirkeys. Luckily they just barely fit through the upholstery openings. After fiddling around trying to find an easier way I ended up making the openings in the aluminum larger. After modifying the openings in the lower seat I finally got the harnesses attached and the lower seat into position.

Because of the setup in this car the sub belt has to be routed through the upholstery and seat and clipped onto the eye bolts before bolting in the seat otherwise it's very difficult to get under the seat to the eyebolts.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior396-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior397-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior399-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Once The seat base and harnesses were in position I did some corner cutting, grinding, filing, and finish sanding on the modifications that were done to the head halos. Then modified the rubber coated foam pads the factory installs in the halos where your helmet comes in contact. With all of the halo mods the rubber bumpers were from 1 to 4 or 5 inches too long.

The passenger side halo needed the most cut off to provide easier access for passengers as well as better visibility for the driver. Because these seats were designed with NASCAR in mind the right side of the head halos were long. Not such a big deal on the drivers side but it really hindered access on the passenger side.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior398-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Finished assembling the passengers seat! Only one seat left and the interior will be done!!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior407-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior409-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Finished up the under dash wiring today, then installed the drivers seat.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior415-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior419-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Finished installing the interior today and cleaned it up a bit from all the work thats been done over the past 7 months.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior422-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior432-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior431-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior435-1.jpg

[jackfrost]

wow. nice work, John.

[bbcc]

Looks fantastic! All that is left is fire suit for yourself custom tailored to look just like the action figure that's been running around in the pics.

From the pictures the paint looks pretty good I must say. And the cut outs on the rear seat are a huge detail that not many guys take the time to sort out as thuroughly as you. Fantastic build.

Definitly need some pics of the first outing after all the hardware has been installed.

Cheers, Ryer

[NOT A TA]

Well I fell behind on posting and getting pics while trying to get everything finished up so I could make a NASA HPDE event at Sebring this past Sat-Sun. (Ryer: more on the track weekend later)So now I'll try to bring the thread up to date.

One of the final things that needed to be installed was Roll Bar Padding! Most of the sanctioning bodies want to see the new style SFI rated dual durometer padding on areas where your helmet could impact the cage tubing. The other areas where your arms, hands, legs or feet could hit the cage are recommended to have the regular foam roll bar padding to help prevent broken arms etc.

The SFI rated padding is very dense and feels "hard", it's much more dense than foam and you can barely push it in a little with all your strength! It comes with double stick tape in it when you recieve it and fits a range of bar sizes. It does not go around the entire bar just a little over 1/2. The regular cage pading has an off center hole where the cage tubing goes and covers all the way around the bar. Regular pading does not have the tape and needs to be zip tied or taped. Cost was under $100.00 for more than enough of both kinds of padding. Even though the SFI pading has the double stick tape in it the tech guys at NASA recommended using zip ties or tape to hold it more securly in the event of an accident.

The only "required" pading for my first event was the SFI pading on the areas where a helmet might hit so I installed that and figured I'd bring all the other pading with me and install if necessary at the track. I knew getting that I'd be getting better at climbing in and out of the cage but wasn't sure how well instructors would be able to get in and out. Adding all the pads possible would just make it even harder for unfamiliar folks to get in and out. Here's a pic of the SFI rated pads in place.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior453-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

The last thing that needed to be done was taking apart the front splash pan/spoiler area bodywork and painting the tow hook brace. The support had been bolted into place but the bodywork was just put in position enough for me to move the car into a trailer when I was moving south. When I'd taken it apart for Joe to fab up the support, I cut off several fasteners to order get it apart so it was time to make everything solid and secure for high speeds.

The support bolts fits between the bumper supports where Joe had welded in extra material and alignment bracket holes. Some wax and grease remover, sanding with 400 grit and it was ready for the Krylon touch and reassembly with all new body clips and associated hardware.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior446-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior448-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior450-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

The safety upgrades were all completed and the car was back together with 1 day to spare before my first track weekend with all the new stuff. While the car was up during the last week I checked over the suspension/hardware, changed the oil, refilled the tranny, topped off the radiator, and replaced the brake fluid. I'd replaced pads after my last track weekend so the pads/shoes were already new and bedded in on seasoned rotors/drums. I dropped the car to the floor for the last time and went for a 2 mile drive (each way)to the local paint supply store to show them the car. A bus load of kids going to summer camp pulled up at a light and every window had a cell phone in it taking pictures of my car with all the kids yelling "RACE CAR!!!!" It was pretty funny!

The short trip went well with no leaks or problems so I cleaned the car a bit and put on some stickers for the track. (I think stickers always look cool at a track) Then I loaded the car in the trailer for a couple hour trip. (ya I know.... but the hassles if I break it or crash it at the track, blah blah blah.) Next day was Friday and I was off to Sebring where I'd be running the full 3.7 mile 17 turn course! The same course they use for the 12 hour race!!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior454-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/The14Carinterior452-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

I stayed at a hotel right next to the track. Got up before dawn hoping to get to the track early enough to get a covered front space on pit lane. Went out to have coffee on my balcony and when dawn came this was the view! How's that for motivation to get to the track! One of the toughest turns on the course, turn 7. Very hard to get it right every lap.

The second pic is a man who knows the track like the back of his hand showing how to clean up at turn 7, even going in the opposite direction!!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/Sebring62021004-1.jpg

This pic was actually taken Sun morning while he was sweeping up the debris from the Sat. races.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/Sebring62021018-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Tech inspection went very well. The guys all thought the car was cool and all the safety stuff was great! their only suggestion was zip ties on the roll bar pads. Comments were all favorable on what a nice job the cage builder had done and how nicely everything was installed while keeping the somewhat stock appearance of the interior.

Then they made fun of my brakes....... "LOOOOK !!!" LOL "Stock front discs w/drum rears!" "OMG!!!".......LOL LOL LOL LOL...... AHAHAHAHA!!!!! ....."BEEEEEE CAREFULLLLLL!!!!!!!!" .... "This track eats brakes!!!!"

Well that kinda put the fear in me to make sure I took it easy the first day so I wouldn't have to change pads and fluid Sat. after the races.

My first assigned instructor couldn't get in and out of the car at about 6'1" and 230 lbs. He got in but literaly crawled on his hands to get out of the car. Obviously not safe if there was an emergency. A smaller instructor switched students and happily took his place.

Track sessions were going well, each session I was staying on the "fastest line" better through the turns and carrying more speed into the straights. During the cool down lap at the end of my 3rd session I felt a funny vibration coming through the steering wheel. Obviously something was wrong in the front end. I took the cool down lap very slowly backing everyone up since there's no passing allowed during cool down.

Back at the pits I checked lug nuts, tie rods, ball joints etc. and didn't find anything wrong, nothing loose, broken or noticably wrong. So I took a drive out on the streets within the track facility. At 45-50 MPH there was again a noticable shimmy in the front end. Rather than take any chances or rush a repair I went and told my instructor I was going to skip my last session of the day and work on the car after the races were over to see if I could fix it.

I found one of the tires had a bulge in the tread area about a foot long that created a sort of egg shape to the tire (but not that dramatic). I'd hit a square edge of pavement in a highway construction zone about a year ago on the way to Lime Rock Park to watch a lady friend run a Formula car. The hit at the time was really hard, causing a slight bend in the wheel lip but didn't seem to have affected the tire. I drove about another 150 street miles afterward. Well on track, on a 100 degree day, with Nick novice behind the wheel..... apparently I'd gotten fast enough during the third session to get the tires heated up good and the belts inside the tire moved causing the bulge. It was right in the area that took the hit.

An "American Iron" racer pitted nearby offered a slick to borrow for Sun if I couldn't find something else. Sun. morning I went out to local tire shops and found a set of 275 40 17 Z rated tires that I could use. Got them installed and only missed my 1st session. Ran well the other sessions of the day becoming much more comfortable with "the line". My instructors recommended to the Chief of instruction that I be moved up a class and "checked out" for solo! That went well and now I no longer need an in car instructor! Soooo.... My car will now be 200 lbs lighter on track !!!!! Quicker at corner exit and easier to slow at the end of straights!

The brakes held up for the weekend and I was using them to the absolute limit with both feet my last couple sessions! There's a couple places where you have to haul the car down from 125+ MPH and then take a 90 degree or sharper turn! I really need to finish building the cooling ducts but I promised myself. SAFETY EQUIPMENT FIRST!

Notice there's no hood scoop on my car in the pics. Even though we thought we had the seat high enough when measuring for the cage etc. I realized after a couple sessions, I just can't see the apex of right hand turns well enough with it on the car. Since most road tracks run clockwise I'll be leaving it off for road course events!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/Sebring62021025-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/Sebring62021024-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/Sebring62021022-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Loading up the car at the end of the weekend. The last straight on the track is next to this parking lot. In this pic I'm parked about 2/3rds from the begining of the straight!

Going to check over the car during the week and plan on attending the ECTA top speed races in NC this coming weekend if the weather's good.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/06/Sebring62021030-1.jpg

[NOT A TA]

Ended up not going to the ECTA this weekend. Will go for the Sept. races there.Here's a link to pics by a pro photographer that was at the Sebring track. Click slideshow to view full screen. http://hendricksportsphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/8674154_vLFpm#575197723_nQGGD

[bbcc]

Glad to hear that sebring went well. Must have been a nice feeling when you finaly got to pilot the car around with all the safety pieces.

So I have to ask. What's next? Better brakes? More suspension pieces? Keep up the solid work!

Cheers, Ryer.

[NOT A TA]

Ya it was cool having all the new stuff in place and getting some seat time to become accustomed to it.

The next thing is to finish getting the brake cooling ducts operational. Then try to figure out if I can put bigger brakes on the car without buying new wheels.

[marc_b]

a little late, but I just found your thread and am very impressed. very cool

[The Stickman]

Ya it was cool having all the new stuff in place and getting some seat time to become accustomed to it.

The next thing is to finish getting the brake cooling ducts operational. Then try to figure out if I can put bigger brakes on the car without buying new wheels.


If you can could you post pics of the duct routing. I always have trouble getting hoses in there and not getting them crushed. I am thinking of using 2 smaller hoses from diferent points. Maybe the size of a vacuum cleaner hose.

[Bryce]

At what point is a roll bar needed in a SCCA event or a NASA or open track event. At what point is a cage needed. I know in NHRA it is easy to figure out: at 11.49 or faster you need a 5 point roll bar. That is a four point with a driver bar and no main hoop diagonal. That is where my car would fit if i ever ran it in the quarter mile. I know with SCCA the main hoop supports cannot have bends (which are allowed in NHRA). Any help would be appreciated.

[Twentyover]

Pretty much any W2W event needs protection of some sort. Go to http://scca.org/contentpage.aspx?content=44 , download Sporting Regulations and look at Appendix G Sections 9.4.1 & 9.4.2. IT and production cages are pretty much the simplest structures. GT's generally have higher potential, so require more structure. NASA will have similiar requirememnts.

There are other 'track day' and time trial sanctions that do not require a cage (TCRA http://touringcarclub.net/ in SoCal comes to mind), also look at Alpha Club and PCNA or POC. Maybe Shely also. They were at one point running 3 more or less equally spaced cars on the big track at Willow in the late 90's w/o a cage requirement.

That beinng said, I personally wouldn't make it a practice to run a car at speed for a number of events without a driver protection structure. As one becomes more skilled, one tends to try to find the limit. Having an off may just generate a big cloud of dust, or the results car be much more severe.

[NOT A TA]

The Road course events I usually attend are NASA HPDEs where no roll over protection is required in the entry level classes except for open cars and verts which must have a rollbar. At the Sanctioned Land Speed Races 135 MPH was the limit without a rollbar. The full cage in my car was built to meet or exceed the requirements for the speeds I plan on running in Land Speed Racing and open road racing. I got the rulebooks or downloaded the tech requirements from the sanctioning bodies and then we figured out what would meet or exceed all of them for the speeds I want to go. As Greg said you tend to seek the cars limits as you become a better driver so if you intend on more than a couple outings plan accordingly, just in case.

[Bryce]

I plan to own the car for a long long time and want to have as much safe fun as possible. I live in san diego and have an 1/8 mile drag strip and an empty parking lot with a SCCA events and other club days where they set up a course. I have also been invited to join the shelby club and do some track days with them.

I have been reading through all the SCCA rules. Since I desinged my own suspension and have changed the stock mounting locations, this puts me in a really high class. I am not to interested in competing for points but does this make other things a requirement, like battery shutoff and cage requirements.

My current plan is a 4 point roll bar with straight rear supports into the trunk. Also a main hoop diagonal and a harness bar and a driver side door bar (not sure on the design). Every point will be mounted to a 3/16" thick 6"x6" plate. also a 6.125"x6.125" backup plate. The reason for teh different size plates is to prevent the shearing of the sheet metal of the unibody car. I think i will bolt in the plates with 3/8" grade 8 or better fasteners.
Off the top of your head, what class or speed would this allow me to run in those events. Thank you for your insight.

[Twentyover]

You would be well served to add a battery cut switch.

I'm not certain there is a class you can run in in SCCA. I don't remember Falcons listed in the old PCS.

One possibility is VARA or HSR-West A/Sedan (under 5L cars. Similiar to B/prod, but with a back seat)

I'm going to suggest you not take the venue. A dual purpose car will be a lame perforrmer compared to cars that are repurposed exclusively for racing, and will probably be pretty much a rolling hazard. Best to spend your time on HPDE's http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/

[NOT A TA]

Greg mentioned a battery cut off switch. I've had them in cars before that were installed before I bought the car and found out at tech inspection that if it's required by tech for a certain class or by a certain sanctioning body then they also want it to shut off the engine not just disconnect the battery.

[Bryce]

thanks guys. The battery cut off will be in the back and the design will shut off the battery and altenator. So it will kill power to everything.

I am not really interested in SCCA competition, I just want to go to the events and have some fun. Is that even accepted?

[NOT A TA]

thanks guys. The battery cut off will be in the back and the design will shut off the battery and altenator. So it will kill power to everything.

I am not really interested in SCCA competition, I just want to go to the events and have some fun. Is that even accepted?

I don't know about SCCA because I've never run with them but you can certainly go to NASA HPDEs, Land Speed Races, drag strip test and tunes, etc. and run without having to fit into a competitive class. Thats what I do, just go have fun!

[PhillipM]

That was a great read so far.. Thanks for all the pics and info!

[musclecarmatt]

did the schroth racing harness you have in there before work pretty well?...think about getting this to help at the weekend SCCA autocross......only got a factory lap belt now...

[69projectKAOS]

^ +1 and what tires are those? how do they perform? -Dom

[shortrack]

wow....awesome thread...def some food for serious thought....makes you think hard about how far you want to go with the car.

[NOT A TA]

did the schroth racing harness you have in there before work pretty well?...think about getting this to help at the weekend SCCA autocross......only got a factory lap belt now...

Yes, I was very happy with the Schroth 4 point ASM for what I was doing and could afford at the time. they kept me planted in the seat so I could concentrate on learning to drive on track instead of trying to keep myself from sliding on the vinyl seats. LOL The quality and ease of use was excellent and of the 4-5 different brands of harnesses I've had in cars over the years the Schroths have been my favorite. I was so impressed with the 4 point ASM Rallye harnesses I decided to use their 6 points when I upgraded and have been happy with those also.

For auto-X, entry level HPDE, and events like RTTH etc. the 4 point Schroths should work out good however if you plan on any high speed stuff on big tracks, quick drag times, or high speed LSR events you might want to skip over the 4 points and get a rollbar with harness bar and 5 or 6 point regular harnesses.

[NOT A TA]

^ +1 and what tires are those? how do they perform? -Dom

Yokohama AO 32 tires (replacing soon with Yoko AO 48's). They are a DOT R tire with a very low tread wear of 40 designed for use at track days while being street legal. They are designed to operate at the higher temps seen on road tracks and are not as good at lower temps as other DOT R tires are that are designed for auto-X use. On track they come up to temp during the first couple laps and then work very well without getting greasy like the more street oriented tires. They also performed fairly well on a wet track (road track events do not stop for rain). They do not squeel like street tires and the break away point seems quicker than street tires probably because there's no audible warning. The grip is much better than the tires up in the 180-220 tread wear. This allows later braking for corners, and higher cornerning speed which then provides higher speed in the next straight. Especially in a car like mine which is underpowered by todays standards.

I like using them because I'm a "bang for the buck" kind of guy and the cheapest way to go faster is tires. Tires are the limiting factor of the ability of the car IMO so why limit it with less than the optimum tire for the application? On a drag strip, I use drag tires. On a road course, I use road course tires. Just makes sense to me. I do drive the car on the street daily with the Yokohamas and they function fine. Sticky DOT R tires loose their grip after a couple years so for me they're too old (for track performance) before they're worn out.

I'm switching soon from the 17" 275/315's to a set of 18 X 10 Rushforths with a 285/295 Yokohama AO48 tire combo. Should be interesting to see what if any difference I can detect.

[NOT A TA]

I haven't gone up to the ECTA since the safety upgrades. Mostly because they started holding Land Speed Races out in the Everglades at Dade/Collier airport. One mile to speed up and one mile to slow down. A very nice "track" that's a runway built for the Concord supersonic airplanes. Although the airport is maintained and could be used it rarely is used by planes. The events held there are not sanctioned races where records can be set but I don't care about trying to "win" anything, just go fast! There's a lot of supercars there running up near or over 200MPH. Since it's only an hour from home instead of 13-14 hours to the ECTA and I can make 8-9 passes a day it's good for me. Here's a couple pics from one.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/milemarker1008-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/FirebirdatMM1-1.jpg

Return road
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/mm1010-1.jpg

Been out to Sebring and Palm Beach International road tracks. Here's a few pics.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/Sebring10309034-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/Sebring10309032-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/Sebring10309057-1.jpg

[69projectKAOS]

thanks for the info on the tires, im going to be looking into some new rubber so your input was helpful. the car is looking great one of my favorites on the forums.oh and are those yoko`s noisy and do you know of anywhere i can get them at a decent price? thanks again -Dom

[NOT A TA]

Thanks Dom!
The AO 32's were not noisy at all after the first 100 miles, initially there was a whine at about 40-45MPH. I haven't put the new AO 48's on yet so no comment on those yet. I bought the 32's through a local tire supplier a bud owns when I lived in CT and lucked out and won the new ones from Yokohama in the Hotchkis Performance Therapy Online Photo Contest last year. I've seen the AO 48's at online places like discount and locally at performance tire shops.

Goodyear also sells a similar type of DOT R track day tire called the Eagle RS which are Made In USA and available in the 17" sizes I had been using which were discontinued by Yokohama when they switched to the new AO48's. The Goodyear tires can only be purchased through their performance/racing division. I was going to try them in the 17" sizes until I won the contest which includes prizes from Baer and Rushforth also, allowing me to get some real brakes under the car. So I'll be installing Baer 6p 14" brakes with 18" Rushforths and the new Yokohama AO 48's.

The Baer brakes and Yokohama tires are here. Need to get the brakes on the car to measure backspacing for the new wheels.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/0011-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/017-2.jpg

[69projectKAOS]

yea now i definitely have to get me a set of those babies! lol thanks for all the info John i appreciate it .-Dom

[NOT A TA]

Thought I'd give some input on the safety upgrades after having them for a couple of years now. Since there's been several PT events that were held on road race tracks there's been a lot more talk on the forum about roll bars and roll cages, seats, harnesses, fire systems, and personal safety equipment.

Things I would do different if I did this again:

Route the tubing for the fire systems before carpet install so the tubes would be hidden.

Design the fire bottle mount a little lower and a couple inches forward.

Ask fabricator to allow space for carpet under the roll cage tubes that are close to the floor.

Use the Kirkey intermediate road race seat now available to eliminate all the hassles with the head halo and the adjustable shoulder protection. Easier install, getting in and out of the car, and less expensive.

Mount the fire system knobs by the drivers A pillar. tech officials mentioned that they feel this is the best location because the driver can pull the knobs while exiting and the safety crew can reach them from outside of the car, PLUS they expect the knobs there. Mine are almost impossible to reach from outside the car, especially if the driver is still in the seat (possibly hurt or whatever).

I don't find the 6 point Schroth harnesses nearly as annoying as the 5 point harnesses I've had in other cars so I will use those all the time rather than buying a different 4 point for street use.

The total for the safety equipment is over $10,000 so far. $4500.00 fabrication shop, $2,500.00 total in seats, $1,100.00 fire systems, $1,200.00 harnesses, $700.00 helmet, plus all the paints, padding, switches, and other supplies needed. I still need arm/leg restraints, door net for LSR events, a full fire suit, gloves/shoes/baclava/socks/underwear required for the classes I want to run, and the Hans device I want. those items will easily exceed 2 grand and probably be closer to three.

Next it's time to get the new brakes/wheels/tires on the car! It's been tough to convince myself to dismantle a perfectly good car again to do the upgrades!

[gcattani]

afternoon,

It's my first time building a roll cage, so i obviously have a few questions:
a) you installed a transmission tunnel tube/bar, does this improve the strength of the cage? is this required? i have never seen it before, so i am just asking.
b) i have read several articles about the main hoop angle with respect to the floor/chassis of the car, but i have no definitive answers on its angle other than it needs to be 90 degrees to the floor. that being said/written, i've seen many cages where the main hoop is angled back to either match the door frame angle or seat angle. thoughts?
c) the bars that angle from the main hoop to the trans tunnel, i believe they are the D bars, where do they land? On top of the tunnel, on the sides, on the floor next to the tunnel, etc? i've seen many examples, but nothing concrete.

Background:
- 1979 Z28 Camaro
- sub-frame connectors installed, but not the ones that require cutting the floor and welding
- Car will be used for street and some strip

i'm looking forward to your response.

thanks,

Glenn

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/The14Carinterior056-1.jpg[/QUOTE]

[Flash68]

John, this is a great thread. Reviving for any updates. :)

Cheers.

[NOT A TA]

John, this is a great thread. Reviving for any updates. :)

Cheers.
As I mentioned in my last post above I was very hesitant to take the car apart. So I just drove it for a while working on other projects. Then I took it apart to install the prizes from the Performance Therapy contest. I've got a long list of things I want to do while it's apart. Tough to be motivated to work on my own Hot Rods when I work on other peoples every day, my car comes last. I did get the backspacing for the new wheels figured out and just received the wheels from Rushforth. I need to update the project thread on the Performance Therapy stuff install along with all the mission creep items I want to do at the same time. Here's the Performance Therapy thread https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?83259-The-14-Car-Performance-Therapy-Project-Baers-Rushforths-Yokohamas-and-more&highlight=

Here's how the car sits today and a test fit of the 18 X 10's on the front. Currently working on the disc upgrade for the rear. I use 2 different rears for the car with different ratios so I stuck the drag rear under while I install the Baers.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/11/0041-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/10/0084-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/10/0064-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/10/00911-1.jpg

[11thhourfabrication]

Hi
Looked up the Rolo Flair tool at Spruce and in their description it said that it was not to be used with stainless tubing. How did it work with yours?

[NOT A TA]

Worked just fine with the annealed stainless tubing supplied by Firefox.

[Skip Fix]

I like your rear end dolly-old bed frame rails?


With your rear axle girdle is your sway bar real close to the adjustor bolts when full chassis extension?

I know the comment about wheel backspace is old but my 79 Camaro when autocrossing with some 10-12" road race slicks up front
the front fenderwell would be hit on the backside at full turn. So if running fenderwells be sure and check they don't rub.