4.11 and overdrive

[ct08]

I currently have a 69 camaro with mild 454 about 425ish hp range, turbo 400 and 12 bolt with 4.11's. I would like to go to an OD trans set up to give me a little better street manners. Im wondering what trans would drop my high speed rpms into the "carry on the conversation hear the radio range". An auto 700r4, 4l60 or 80, maybe even a 5 or 6 speed conversion in the future. But at this time I would like to go with the most cost effective for now.

[chicane67]

200-4R... or the newer L series if your up for an electronic controlled unit. Then at least you can paddle shift it...

As for a manual unit... a T56 or a TKO would answer that question.

[astroracer]

I would suggest a Gear Venders Overdrive. You will be spending a chunk of change to build a 200R4 that will live behind your BBC so why not keep the th400 and bolt one of these up instead? Popular Hot Rodding Mag did an install on a Chevelle and loved it.
Check out their site.
http://www.gearvendors.com/
Mark

[chicane67]

Uhm... I dont know about that.

$2250'ish for a capable 200-4R or $2595 for a GVOD.

Besides... Gear Vendors are a bunch of thieves... and lets just leave it at that.

[Steve Chryssos]

425ish flywheel horsepower is fairly mild these days, so I'd say your options are pretty wide open. Whattya really WANT?

[ct08]

Just to cruise and enjoy my car over long distance trips, and be able to hear the radio and not shake out my fillings out.

[chicane67]

425ish flywheel horsepower is fairly mild these days, so I'd say your options are pretty wide open. Whattya really WANT?

*cough* Paddle shifted 4L60/80 *cough*

[ct08]

maybe a nice twisty small block and a paddle shifter...ahhhh now we are talking!

[Steve Chryssos]

The cheapest route is to ditch the 4.11's and spec out the perfect torque converter. Get the converter just right and street manners will improve.

You said cost effective, not necessarily cheap. The problem with cost effective is that you must be very careful when choosing sources. The "deal of the week" sources usually provide stock rebuilds with updated frictions. If the offering is vague or the source is not established, walk away.

So, first up for cost effective is a CPT 2004R. The term cost effective can be a real oxymoron if you don't make the right choices. When it comes to 200's the trusted source is Art Carr--The Real Art Carr at California Performance Transmissions. He lives and breathes 200's.
Price? $1899 Not sure if that includes a converter. But 200's are an easy swap and that factors into the cost effective equation. 2004R's like 4.11 gears so keep em.

Next up is a junkyard 4L80E. Rated at 550 Ft-Lbs from the factory, you can dig one out of the dirt and it will live. The catch is that you really need to shop carefully for the right core. But they're out there.
Trans: $500
Shift Kit: $150
Computer: $1100
Converter: $700
$2450
More money plus some risk (used core) plus a crossmember (cost varies from $0 to $150). But you'll have something that can be fine tuned to your exact vehicle specs and driving style. Paddle Shifter can be added later or at any time. Not a mandatory part of the equation. The shift kit can be added later as well, but don't wait. Factory 80's shift very soft.

I don't look at 700's because any upside can usually be challenged by the 200's capabilities. 30 years of GN aftermarket support has led to some impressive developments for the 200 series. There are good 700's at your power level, but they don't win "cost effective" arguments.

Unlike the 700 series, 4L60E series transmissions are awesome--Just not very affordable. If cost were not a factor, I'd be suggesting a '60 all the way for your application.

I'm not in love with gear splitters. They're designed for tractor trailers where load variations (sometimes full/sometimes empty) rule the equation. In a hot rod, they seem like a band aid not a solution. That wasn't true 10 years ago, but the overdrive transmission market has caught up in terms of cost and reliability. Might as well swap the trans.

You will be hard pressed to come up with a reliable $2500 overdrive manual transmission solution. You would need to swap meet every last part and detail. It can be done, but be very organized going in.


How'd I do Tom?

[ct08]

Thanks great info. As much as I love banging gears with a stick. I would say Im leaning toward a 4l80. I have friends racing 80s with little mods and they hold up well and have good street manners.

[chicane67]

I agree Steve-o... the converter will make the biggest difference and is the one element that will make or brake the package. At the first thought of 'cost effective'... I thought of the 200. But with your example... I'm thinking differently now. Afterall, if there is someone in our specific theater... you would be my choice to ask the questions to.

On another note, I believe the $1899 200-4R price is sans converter.

In your example, between the 200 and the 4L80E... I believe that the 4L80E would be a much better choice since you broke it down the way you did. For the small difference in cost between my example of the 200 and your example of the 4L80... that the 4L80 makes much, much more sense. As you stated, one can always do the other mentioned "upgrades" in time. Not only that... you have the platform that can be tuned to the powertrain needs as well as your driving style. That, I believe, is a huge plus over the 200-4R. Oh yeah... and you can paddle shift it...

On the subject of a manual conversion... I dont think you could realistically touch an OD manual convertion for less than $2750-3000... with used parts on the cheap... and still not have the ability or the adjustability of the late model automatics.

[ct08]

So what do you think would be the right stall on the converter? Im not sure what the cam profile is, I think its the same as GM crate 454-425hp Im not running huge rolling stock (yet) 17inchers for now.

[Steve Chryssos]

Cam specs for a 454 HO are 211/230 and .510/.540 hydraulic roller. Intake is a dual plane. Heads are rectangular ports--probably 310cc. The GMPP website lists a dyno chart for that combination. Killer torque everywhere but a redline of 5500 rpm. That engine is already making 440 FtLbs of torque at 2000 rpm. Torque curve is flat as a board up to its peak of 500 FtLbs at 3400 rpm.

If that sounds like your engine, then we have some wiggle room based on your personal preferences. For a street/strip car, we would go 3000rpm (What? That's it? Well yeah, the thing's out of steam at 5500rpm and he's running a 4.11 gear so he'll get there quick, silly.)

But for street manners we will take advantage of the torque multiplication and efficiency found at lower rpm and go with a 2600 rpm stall speed. Given that beautiful, flat torque curve, the multiplication will make the car feel like we found 50 FtLbs at part throttle. Makes me look good. :rolleyes: This is especially useful with an overdrive trans where revs drop below 2000 rpm in part throttle/high gear situations. All this assumes that the combination is close to the 454HO. The numbers change with a hairy cam or single plane intake.

Edit: Here's the dyno graph link (http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/EngineShowcase/dynochart.jsp?engId=454HO&engine=454%20HO&sku=12568774&engCat=bb) for the 454 HO

[ct08]

2600 sounds good, Id prefer the street manners. I snatched out a nasty big block and converter big enough to put in your pocket to go with the 454 im currently running. So I appreciate the info, I switched from the racing to riding and its hard to find a happy medium.

[Steve Chryssos]

.....I switched from the racing to riding and its hard to find a happy medium.

You can have it all--almost. The only thing we sacrifice is stage rpm rpm at the drags when running slicks. On typical pro-touring tires that's actually a good thing.

[Steve Chryssos]

I agree Steve-o... the converter will ........late model automatics.

Tom,
CONCENSUS! Awesome. Hey, you know anything about headlights? :candle: