Operation Bad Penny version 2.1T (track edition)

[Steve1968LS2]

Since our cars are never really done I've decided to do some upgrades to Penny.

Actually what set this in motion was the driving event set for the day after SEMA. Some super exotic stuff is showing up, so I decided to give Penny some enhancements.

The engine on Penny has always been simple. Just a crate LS2 with heads, cam, intake and tuning. I thought of going with a blower but it's more fun and simple to just go NA and have less problems.

With this in mind I decided to pull the LS2 and stroke it to a 408. I really don't care about making more top end horsepower, but I'm doing this more for low end torque. I have the before dyno numbers so it should make for a good story on what gains there are from the extra displacement and a SLIGHTLY larger cam (due to the larger displacement being able to suck it up without hurting drivability).

Here's the kit:
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=383&gid=187

I will also be having the LS1 T56 trans rebuilt by Rockland Standard Gear. Their three-cone deal will make the shifts smoother and some of the parts will be upgraded. But, the most important change will be to the gearing (I hate the .50 sixth gear.. useless). New gearing will be:

2.97, 2.07, 1.43, 1.00, .80, .62

To knock a bit of weight off the car the hood will be switched over to a Carbon Fiber one from Anvil Auto. The 17 pound hood (which will be painted) will knock off almost 30 pounds from the front of the car.

We will also be installing a set of higher end Bilstein shocks to the car. There's nothing really wrong with what I have, but I need more travel so they are going to help me pick the RIGHT size for the car with the right valving. Chasing tenths gets expensive. This will be done at Race Car Dynamics in SoCal, hopefully next week.

I will also finally installing my Safecraft fire system and have my hardlines done by BENT fabrication. I think Tyler at ATS is working on a front tow hook that will work with my screens.

I'm also thinking of picking up a set of ultra light track wheels in 17-inch from Forgeline. They would only weigh about 18lbs each.
So that's the plan so far.


New forged Lunati Pro-Series non-twist crank (4340, 45lbs):
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Wiseco flat top pistons (-13cc) forged from 2618 aluminum and CNC profiled. The rods are Lunati H-beam made from 4340 steel:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I guess I can put that nitrous system in now :unibrow:

[TheMonkey]

dang!

[mach1stang]

No no no your doing it wrong.

this is more like it,
http://nelsonracingengines.com/videos/NRETV69CamaroHigh.wmv

[cjrolke]

No no no your doing it wrong.

this is more like it,
http://nelsonracingengines.com/videos/NRETV69CamaroHigh.wmv

holy *****

[SatisTraction]

this keeps getting better and better!! :)

[andrewb70]

While its nice getting free stuff and throwing it in your car, I would reconsider. Strokers sound great on paper but I would steer clear. When the pistons are at BDC the oil ring is barely inside the cylinder liner. That is why strokers tend to consume so much oil. There is a great deal of piston rocking at BDC. Just my opinion.

Andrew

[BonzoHansen]

what rear gears do you have that 6th is useless?? I have 3.73s and use it all the time

[LMDGUY]

very cool!! is the driving event open to the public? if so where is it goin to be at? I dont think we are leaving Vegas till sunday.

[Steve1968LS2]

what rear gears do you have that 6th is useless?? I have 3.73s and use it all the time

I just don't like the feel of car with the .50 6th gear.. I'm sure the mileage is good, but that's not the point.

At 70 I'm doing 1600ish RPM... just feels sluggish.

I didn't use it much with my old 2000 SS Camaro either. :shrug:

[Steve1968LS2]

very cool!! is the driving event open to the public? if so where is it goin to be at? I dont think we are leaving Vegas till sunday.

Pahrump (sp?) raceway.. about an hour from Vegas.

It's the Optima Ultimate Streetcar Invitational

[Steve1968LS2]

While its nice getting free stuff and throwing it in your car, I would reconsider. Strokers sound great on paper but I would steer clear. When the pistons are at BDC the oil ring is barely inside the cylinder liner. That is why strokers tend to consume so much oil. There is a great deal of piston rocking at BDC. Just my opinion.

Andrew

It's not about getting "free stuff and throwing it in my car"... I want to see what power benefit there will be by gaining more displacement. If that was the case I would call Magnacharger and have a kit sent over. I have the dyno info for the current engine and it would be interesting to see what gain there is in grabbing 44 more cubic inches.

I know some strokers CAN be problematic. Like stroking a 351W to 427. But many work just fine. The 408 in my Fairlane was a great engine. But, I will research 408 LS2s a bit more. Thanks for the tip :)

I read up a bit over at LS1tech.. you are right that there can be problems at BDC with the 408 but it sound that if the parts are matched up right and assembled right that it's not an issue. Seems like the biggest factor is the pistons. Here's what one builder over there said.


Both the Wiseco and Diamonds are working great. They both are designed for the LS1 and it's short bores. The 4.030 bore Wisecos and Diamond all have very low taper skirts that work great. The best piston would depend on what compression and usage you are after.

That's what I have, the low taper Wisecos. I will dig around a bit more.

[BonzoHansen]

I just don't like the feel of car with the .50 6th gear.. I'm sure the mileage is good, but that's not the point.

At 70 I'm doing 1600ish RPM... just feels sluggish.

I didn't use it much with my old 2000 SS Camaro either. :shrug:
go faster....what rear gears? I need facts!?!?!?!?

[Steve1968LS2]

go faster....what rear gears? I need facts!?!?!?!?

Faster? I don't need no stinking tickets :)

I have 3.90s and a 26" tire.

[barraza]

......But, the most important change will be to the gearing (I hate the .50 sixth gear.. useless). New gearing will be:

2.97, 2.07, 1.43, 1.00, .80, .62

.........
You will be much happier with these gears, I have them in mine. The .50 sixth isn't optimum unless you have a very mild cam and can pull really low rpms under load. The other alternative of a lower rear gear helps sixth but makes first useless. Notice that these gears make 2nd through 5th in a t56 almost the exact equivalent of a m22 in 1st through 4th. But now you have what a m22 always needed, a lower first and a overdrive, perfect.

[LMDGUY]

Pahrump (sp?) raceway.. about an hour from Vegas.

It's the Optima Ultimate Streetcar Invitational

very cool. Hopefully wont be too burned out from the week in Vegas

[andrewb70]

2.97 first gear is too steep. Personally I would go less than the current 2.66, especially with the added power. Go with the .62 OD.

Andrew

[JMarsa]

I don't recall the exact details but when I had my T56 rebuilt by Liberty and was dicussing gear sets, I thought there's only 2 choices GTO and Corvette/Camaro and once you choose one, you can't mix and match the gears because they have to match on the shaft. Maybe I'm off base.

--JMarsa

[streetk14]

Steve,

FWIW I have the standard F-body geared (2.66/0.50) T56 in my '67 Camaro with 3.70 gears and a 650 hp/600 tq 346ci LS motor. No matter what you do, 6th gear isn't going to be a good performance gear. It is simply a cruising gear and mine works just fine with taller gearing than you and a similar cam. I think it's more about your tune and the ability of the motor to run comfortably at those lower speeds. If I hit slower traffic I'll use 5th if I have to and then go back into 6th as speeds increase.

I also think the 1st gear is going to be too deep with the added torque of the stroker. It's going to be the equivalent of changing to a 4.30 rear gear with your current transmission. When I went from a basically stock 405 hp LS6 Vette motor to my blown setup, I went the other way and stepped my 4.11 gears back down to 3.70s to help with the added torque.

I guess you will get to see how it works for you when it is back on the road. I'm sure you've thought about this stuff already, but wanted to let you know what I've dealt with involving a very similar car setup.

Andy

[Steve1968LS2]

2.97 first gear is too steep. Personally I would go less than the current 2.66, especially with the added power. Go with the .62 OD.

Andrew

Did you see the gear choices I was given?... I started a thread in the manual trans section :)

I agree on the .62 OD

[Steve1968LS2]

I don't recall the exact details but when I had my T56 rebuilt by Liberty and was dicussing gear sets, I thought there's only 2 choices GTO and Corvette/Camaro and once you choose one, you can't mix and match the gears because they have to match on the shaft. Maybe I'm off base.

--JMarsa

There were four "sets" of choices.. actuall 5.

BUT, I think with some of them you have to go with the Tranzilla or Son Of Tranzilla.

What's first gear on a Z06? Isn't it 2.9x? (yes, I know they don't have 3.90 gears )

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,

FWIW I have the standard F-body geared (2.66/0.50) T56 in my '67 Camaro with 3.70 gears and a 650 hp/600 tq 346ci LS motor. No matter what you do, 6th gear isn't going to be a good performance gear. It is simply a cruising gear and mine works just fine with taller gearing than you and a similar cam. I think it's more about your tune and the ability of the motor to run comfortably at those lower speeds. If I hit slower traffic I'll use 5th if I have to and then go back into 6th as speeds increase.

I also think the 1st gear is going to be too deep with the added torque of the stroker. It's going to be the equivalent of changing to a 4.30 rear gear with your current transmission. When I went from a basically stock 405 hp LS6 Vette motor to my blown setup, I went the other way and stepped my 4.11 gears back down to 3.70s to help with the added torque.

I guess you will get to see how it works for you when it is back on the road. I'm sure you've thought about this stuff already, but wanted to let you know what I've dealt with involving a very similar car setup.

Andy

Thanks, it's all food for thought.. It's not like the thing is built yet :)

[Damn True]

This calls for a 12-step program.

[Steve1968LS2]

This calls for a 12-step program.

I agree...

1st step.. rip out LS2
2nd step.. stroke it
3rd step.. dyno tune it
4th step.. rip out trans
5th.....

lol

[bwhinnen]

What heads has Penny got again Steve? And any upgrades to the Cam when you stroke it?

Cannot wait to see the results, will make her an awesome little autocross car (and a handful to the unwary!)

[Steve1968LS2]

What heads has Penny got again Steve? And any upgrades to the Cam when you stroke it?

Cannot wait to see the results, will make her an awesome little autocross car (and a handful to the unwary!)

Really nicely done AFR 205s. No need to mess with them.

Will go a little bigger on the cam. I want the same manners as it has now, but the extra displacement can suck up a little larger cam. 230/232 with 112 now.. will go 238/240 or 240/244 both on a 112 LSA.

[Restomod]

Steve....that crank is just JUST JUST art!!

[Krazed]

Really nicely done AFR 205s. No need to mess with them.

Will go a little bigger on the cam. I want the same manners as it has now, but the extra displacement can suck up a little larger cam. 230/232 with 112 now.. will go 238/240 or 240/244 both on a 112 LSA.

That thing should sound mean!

I have a Lunati Voodoo series 60403 cam (226/234 & 494-513 lift) in my 340 Edelbrock Head Barracuda, and it bumps along nicely with a 3" exhaust. Sounds like a big block and everyone comments. The street manners are excellent with it.

I can only imagine how nicely the stroker would eat up the cam and stay calm at the same time.

Also, i've been meaning to ask Steve, what exhaust do you have on your car? Specifically, what mufflers? I love the sound, and it sounds fairly tame/quiet.

I only ask because I have a 3" Exhaust, X-pipe, and Magnaflow XL's and it's still incredibly loud. I'm afraid of hurting my 3 month old's ears!

[streetk14]

That thing should sound mean!

I have a Lunati Voodoo series 60403 cam (226/234 & 494-513 lift) in my 340 Edelbrock Head Barracuda, and it bumps along nicely with a 3" exhaust. Sounds like a big block and everyone comments. The street manners are excellent with it.

I can only imagine how nicely the stroker would eat up the cam and stay calm at the same time.

Also, i've been meaning to ask Steve, what exhaust do you have on your car? Specifically, what mufflers? I love the sound, and it sounds fairly tame/quiet.

I only ask because I have a 3" Exhaust, X-pipe, and Magnaflow XL's and it's still incredibly loud. I'm afraid of hurting my 3 month old's ears!

I think he has Magnaflows, but the unfortunate thing (or maybe its a good thing?) about injected LSx motors is that they sound very tame with cams that would sound mean in an old small block. The 224/230 cam in my LS1 only has a little lump to it.

Andy

[Steve1968LS2]

Been firming up my plans for the next month.

The LS2 will be a 402 and not a 408 (don't want to re-sleeve the block)

Shocks and spring rates are being re-worked

I will most likely install the CF hood and parts from Track Rat onto Penny for the event and then go back to my current stuff.

New 17" Forgeline racing wheels are being made. These will be 4-5 pounds lighter than the Forgelines on there now. Plus the smaller tires will be a bit lighter. Wheels: http://www.forgeline.com/products/competition-series/zx3r.html -- they will done in a flat black center with titainum hoops.

Tires will be 275/40/17 front and 315/35/17 rear. The taller side wall as well as the smaller rear tire will help the car rotate better.

Transmission will be Rockland Standards new three-cone T56 with better internals and slightly better gearing. Will also install the McLeod billet alum flywheel that's been hanging out in my garage.

Rework valve covers to impove crankcase ventalation

Improve gas tank venting system - Improve diff housing vent system

Finish fire system install

New Canton oil pan and remote filter system

I think that's enough to keep me busy for the next month. lol

Oh, and the car is official set to be displayed at SEMA this year. It will in Magnaflow's new big rig display outside (where II Much was last year)

[slowcamaro]

New Canton oil pan and remote filter system

I love the car though I haven't followed super close. Still wet sump? While youre order canton parts you may want to consider the accusump.

[wblanton]

The Wheels are going to be Killer in Flat Black on your car!!!

[PARKERRS]

Steve,
What length shocks are you running now on the rear? You said you needed more travel and I just wondered. I mocked up the 3 link under my second gen. this weekend using shocks that are 13.5" compressed and 20.5" extended and it looked like I might have to go with a shorter shock for stance to get about an inch lower. Just wondered what your thoughts were and your current shock sizes versus the new ones. I've already stepped up to the AFCO M2 double adjustable to compliment the ones with the DSE sub. Also what spring rate are you using as I'm going to base line with 250lb.?
Any other info or insight into the 402 stroker is also appreciated as I was looking at the SDPC kit with Callies upgrade along with Trick Flow 225 heads for the LS2 I have. Sorry to steal the thread.

Tommy

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
What length shocks are you running now on the rear? You said you needed more travel and I just wondered. I mocked up the 3 link under my second gen. this weekend using shocks that are 13.5" compressed and 20.5" extended and it looked like I might have to go with a shorter shock for stance to get about an inch lower. Just wondered what your thoughts were and your current shock sizes versus the new ones. I've already stepped up to the AFCO M2 double adjustable to compliment the ones with the DSE sub. Also what spring rate are you using as I'm going to base line with 250lb.?
Any other info or insight into the 402 stroker is also appreciated as I was looking at the SDPC kit with Callies upgrade along with Trick Flow 225 heads for the LS2 I have. Sorry to steal the thread.

Tommy

At my ride heigth.. which is low (looks best) my eye to eye (ie, heim to heim) in the rear is 12.5" and my front is about 13"

This is a bit short and if a real "racecar" application I think more distance would make shock sizing easier. I might have to give up being able to adjust rebound (on the shaft) and just have adjustable compression (remote res). We are custom valving the Bilsteins to the car. Will retain the 600lb front springs and go 250 in the rear.

What do you wanna know about the 402?

[Steve1968LS2]

Update:

1. New 402 pistons arrived from Weisco. They are coated and are a new design that makes up for the valve relief by having a tiny dome. This takes them from a -13cc to a -3cc. This way my compression will stay around 11.1:1 --- The are currently being balanced to the Lunati crank and rods.

2. Dyno date for the new 402 is 10/16 so I'm going to be a busy guy.

3. Going to Bilstein next week for shock work -- Picking up carbon fiber parts for Penny tomorrow from Anvil.

4. Might run the CF on Penny for SEMA to give a new look (and help with the race) and then swap back on the current parts. This will let me roll those parts over to the Track Rat project. Will save me $$$ and besides Penny look pretty good as-is.

5. New tricked out T56 is done over at Rockland and is currently in transit. I had a freelancer shoot it (first time ever I haven't been involved with an aspect of Penny). Three cone syncro, 32 spline output shaft, steel fork and a host of other upgrades. Should shift like butter.

Some shots:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Steve1968LS2]

Oh, ordered the wheels too..

Satin black centers with Titanium (color) hoops. Will have Titanium bolts and jet-nuts.

Size.. 17x10 front and 17x12 rear

Tires 275/40/17 front and 315/35/17 rear

Should knock a TON off of my rotating mass. It's thier lightest competition wheel.

Sorta this color center..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

With this color hoop...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[zbugger]

Sounds like some awesome progress coming along. And I'm jealous of the wheels. Those are the ones I want, only with a gunmetal center and polished rim halves. That, and in an 18" size. I can't wait to see them on the car.

[Flash68]

Steve, those wheels are gonna be insane!

[victionone]

Love the wheel choice steve.

[protour73]

Been firming up my plans for the next month.

Improve gas tank venting system - Improve diff housing vent system



please explain both in detail.........................................:hm m:

[Steve1968LS2]

please explain both in detail.........................................:hm m:

Gas pukes out to easy in hard turns. Also, I want hardlines done in my tank (by Bent) so I can ditch the braided lines. Going to install something better the lets the fumes vent and keeps the gas in.

The current vent for the diff is inadequate for hard driving. This lets pressure build in the housing and causes leaks. Will send into the trunk, to a catch can, and then back outside to atmosphere (no smell).

Minor things I've been meaning to do.

[Larry Callahan]

Oh, ordered the wheels too..

Satin black centers with Titanium (color) hoops. Will have Titanium bolts and jet-nuts.

Size.. 17x10 front and 17x12 rear

Tires 275/40/17 front and 315/35/17 rear

Should knock a TON off of my rotating mass. It's thier lightest competition wheel.

Sorta this color center..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

With this color hoop...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nate K]

Penny just gets better and better. I love it!

[Roadbuster]

Those wheels are going to look killer on Penny! The matte black centers should disappear and let you see the brakes.

TI bolts, with lightened centers - nice! That is their full race setup!

Jon

[Steve1968LS2]

Went by Anvil and picked up the carbon fiber parts.. the hood is NUTS.. it weighs almost nothing and BOS was very happy with how good it look shape wise.

Not sure what I'm doing yet. Original idea was to just run the hood and some sort of CF graphic.. then I thought I might put on all three and do a stripe sort of like on Track Rat. Then I thought I could do that for SEMA and then transfer the parts to the Track Rat project.

I need to get with a designer and come up with a plan.

In any event.. here are the full carbon parts from Anvil.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[WILWAXU]

More I look at it, the more like a ricer I feel... Don't paint it. It's too pretty :D

[Steve1968LS2]

I want to paint "part" of it... having the whole panel bare is non-cohesive and looks like I just stuck some parts on there. It needs to be anchored to the rest of the car.

I will report back with a review on how it fits.

[hotrdblder]

steve, looks killer. anvils stuff is killer. and i agree you need to bring some of the rest of the car into it. i thought i would like a full carbon hood but after seeing steevos with the whole carbon hood i think some color needs to be brought into it, to tame it down some

[gmorris]

Those wheels will look killer with the titanium colored hoops. I did mine with carbon black centres, polished hoops, ti bolts and jet nuts.

[chevymike]

Hi Steve, I haven't been on the board since I sold my '69 close to 3 years ago. Kind of getting back into things since my divorce and remarry. Glad to see you have kept improving things on Bad Penny. I remember seeing your blue '69 at Hot Rods and Custom Stuff right before you sold it.

On to my post. My thoughts on the painting of the hood is this, tape off the carbon like the factory rally stripes and then paint the rest. Blends the hood into the car, keeping a factory look with the stripes but the added touch being those are the bare carbon fiber. Just my thoughts. Good luck!!!

[Ron S]

Have you trial fit any of the stuff yet Steve? Looks cool but I have to agree,it needs to be brought in to the rest of the car.It is going to be a little harder for Penny, because of the color{would be easier with a red or blue}Ron

[protour73]

C/F does not, make a ricer car............ricers got the C/F parts bug from one source......RACERS. Carbon Fiber parts predated ricers by a many years.

Steve...............I agree...............partial paint on the C/F parts, that hood is just SICK :smoke:

[Z06killinSBF]

Maybe have the tops of the fenders painted to match the CF parts. Just a thought.

[Steve1968LS2]

Have you trial fit any of the stuff yet Steve? Looks cool but I have to agree,it needs to be brought in to the rest of the car.It is going to be a little harder for Penny, because of the color{would be easier with a red or blue}Ron

So far we've had good luck with fitting the anvil parts on other cars. Will update in regards to Penny later this week.

I have the guy that designed the new Challenger helping me ideas.. I think I'm in good hands.. lol

[Steve1968LS2]

The new 402 pistons arrived today. It's a brand new design from Weisco. There's a very slight dome to the piston. This means they are -3cc intead of -13cc (from the valve reliefs). I will now have 11.1:1 compression instead fo 10.5

These pistons also have coated skirts and are specifically designed for a stoker application (to address rock at BDC)

Picked my new cam. 238/240 .604 lift and LSA of 112

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[hotwheels]

Steve,

I was doing some thinking about your car after you left. Here's what I would do to tie the whole thing together. Bring the body color of Penny onto the cf parts like you were saying, to make them part of the rest of the body, but leave the middle part carbon fiber with a satin clear coat instead of gloss. That way it will look alike a fighter jet with an anti-glare area in front of the canopy. You would probably want to define the edge with a pinstripe of some sort. Something subtle. I think the satin would go well with the wheels too!

[OLDFLM]

My thoughts on the painting of the hood is this, tape off the carbon like the factory rally stripes and then paint the rest. Blends the hood into the car, keeping a factory look with the stripes but the added touch being those are the bare carbon fiber. Just my thoughts. Good luck!!!

Like the idea above but would do a single wide stripe like on Dale Jr's Camaro or similar... or a Yenko stripe with custom lettering aimed toward Bad Penny or your new engine combination... JMHO

Oh, and I like the flat or semi-flat clear idea too...

[T_Raven]

just wanted to give a little input on the stroker issue. there was an article about genIII stoker kits in the oct 08 issue of Car Craft. i wanted to use a 6.0l block and 4" crank in my 00 silverado but looks like it's not the best choice for longevity. i couldn't find the article on the website so i typed the highlights out of the mag:

".....GM extended the length of the cylinder liners in the LS7 because of the longer 4.00 inch stroke using a shorter 6.067 inch long rod.......In the photos supplied by Schwartz Extreme Performance, these pistons were used in a 402ci engine using a 4.00 inch long crank. The photo shows a skirt with scoring from 2000 miles of street driving......We also spoke with Judson Massengill, owner of the School of Automotive Machinists in Houston. Massengill says he dislikes the 4.00 inch stroke crank packages for a street engine because they have difficulty with oil control........Massengill did say that for a bracket engine or very limited street use engine the 4.00 inch stroke systems do work. He just prefers not to use them in a street application."

but whatever you do, i'm excited to see it

[eville]

Sounds like some awesome progress coming along. And I'm jealous of the wheels. Those are the ones I want, only with a gunmetal center and polished rim halves. That, and in an 18" size. I can't wait to see them on the car.

You mean like these :smoke:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/06/IMG_1090-1.jpg

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

that is soooo rice...


ahahhahah!

[ROACHZ28]

holy *****

Yeah my words exactly!! Steve you are the man.

[Steve1968LS2]

just wanted to give a little input on the stroker issue. there was an article about genIII stoker kits in the oct 08 issue of Car Craft. i wanted to use a 6.0l block and 4" crank in my 00 silverado but looks like it's not the best choice for longevity. i couldn't find the article on the website so i typed the highlights out of the mag:

".....GM extended the length of the cylinder liners in the LS7 because of the longer 4.00 inch stroke using a shorter 6.067 inch long rod.......In the photos supplied by Schwartz Extreme Performance, these pistons were used in a 402ci engine using a 4.00 inch long crank. The photo shows a skirt with scoring from 2000 miles of street driving......We also spoke with Judson Massengill, owner of the School of Automotive Machinists in Houston. Massengill says he dislikes the 4.00 inch stroke crank packages for a street engine because they have difficulty with oil control........Massengill did say that for a bracket engine or very limited street use engine the 4.00 inch stroke systems do work. He just prefers not to use them in a street application."

but whatever you do, i'm excited to see it

I will run this by the guys at Weisco.. according to them their pistons address these issues. I will see what he has to say.

If it's an issue down the line I will pull the engine and do a story on re-sleeving a block. lol.. just kidding. But I will get the experts opinions on this and put it in print.. good or bad.

[67SSDan]

I'm glad you're thinking of painting at least some of the CF parts... that's going to look a lot better. I love what Larry is doing with his, I think something even more subtle like just the standard 1st gen stripes revealing the CF would look cool as well. You'd need to address the back too though. :)

I'm also digging the 17's.

Dan

[Steve1968LS2]

just wanted to give a little input on the stroker issue. there was an article about genIII stoker kits in the oct 08 issue of Car Craft. i wanted to use a 6.0l block and 4" crank in my 00 silverado but looks like it's not the best choice for longevity. i couldn't find the article on the website so i typed the highlights out of the mag:

".....GM extended the length of the cylinder liners in the LS7 because of the longer 4.00 inch stroke using a shorter 6.067 inch long rod.......In the photos supplied by Schwartz Extreme Performance, these pistons were used in a 402ci engine using a 4.00 inch long crank. The photo shows a skirt with scoring from 2000 miles of street driving......We also spoke with Judson Massengill, owner of the School of Automotive Machinists in Houston. Massengill says he dislikes the 4.00 inch stroke crank packages for a street engine because they have difficulty with oil control........Massengill did say that for a bracket engine or very limited street use engine the 4.00 inch stroke systems do work. He just prefers not to use them in a street application."

but whatever you do, i'm excited to see it

Here's part of your answer.. Still working on specifics relating to the 4-inch stroke.


FROM WEISCO:
Wiseco’s LS series pistons are designed to take the power of high boost or nitrous applications, but run reliably and quietly on the street. The 2618 alloy is stronger than 4032, but typically wears quicker. To remedy this, Wiseco uses a permanent skirt coating that lasts the life of the piston. Some forged pistons also have a reputation for being noisy, so Wiseco offsets the pins like the o.e. to reduce this noise on startup. A low friction ring package is designed to maximize ring land thickness and utilizes a special oil ring design that reduces oil consumption. Because the pistons swing very close to the reluctor ring on LS engines, Wiseco was the first to design a forging around a 2.250” wristpin length. To make this possible, it was designed with just enough pin boss spacing to fit the factory connecting rod width. This further increases pin bore bearing area and reduces pin flex as well. Wiseco is the first to offer multifit valve pockets on their pistons. If a guy starts off with a ls1 or 2, and wants to install L92/LS3 heads or even LS7 head later on a bigger bore engine, he can run the same piston. The K464 series piston uses the Wiseco flow-dome technology to hit the needed compression ratio target. Although it’s in the testing stages, the domes are designed to keep air flowing with less turbulence past the valves when the piston is around tdc. Some LS stroker kits are known to have oil consumption. This is mostly a function of piston rock at BDC. Through a lot of research, Wiseco has designed a skirt cam and taper combination that maintains a full diameter at bdc; this keeps oil consumption and skirt wear to a minimum.

[dcozzi]

Paint the carbon parts and let whatever "graphic" you choose show through. Clear over the whole thing. It will be unbelievable!

Penny is a "shiny" colored car to start with, so the clear over the carbon should be the same as the rest of the car.

Just my $.02 of course.

[T_Raven]

Here's part of your answer.. Still working on specifics relating to the 4-inch stroke.

[/font][/color][/color][/size][/font]




well i hope they are right and not just making stuff up. let us know if you find anymore info. thanks

[Steve1968LS2]

well i hope they are right and not just making stuff up. let us know if you find anymore info. thanks

Will do, I hit thier engineer with more questions but he's on vacation.. when he gets back to me I will post what he has to say specifically on BDC.


The new Canton oil pan arrived today. Nice piece. The best part is that the front is short enough for me to use (to clear my rack). It uses an fbody windage tray, pick-up and dipstick.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Trap door baffling:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[72NovaSS]

That pan looks beautiful Steve! Sad it has to go under the car where you cant see it fully!

[Steve1968LS2]

The car was running great.. and 5 hours later at BOS this is what we had:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

<-- nuts

[Steve1968LS2]

Scaled her.. this is her "pre modifications" weight. Should be at least 50lbs lighter when done. We will screw with pre-loading the shocks to get a better balance. Not many parts we can move around (I could add lead weights I guess ;) )

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Oh, did some measurments.. looks like my roll center is 8.5 inches... :eek:

[Larry Callahan]

The car was running great.. and 5 hours later at BOS this is what we had:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

<-- nuts

Man that's a lot of scary work on a finished car. But, it's going to be awesomerer when it's done.

I say don't change it too much. I LOVE it the way it is.

[Steve1968LS2]

The engine will look exactly the same (except the pan).. just more power.

The exterior will look the same except the wheels and the CF stripe.

Time to go get back to work...

[Steve1968LS2]

well i hope they are right and not just making stuff up. let us know if you find anymore info. thanks

I sent what you posted to Weisco and here's what they sent back:



“ According to Brian Nutter @ Wiseco Piston, LS blocks have varying cylinder lengths ranging from 5.420 in the 6.0 block, 5.455 to 5.475 in the ls1,2,3,92 blocks, LSX at 5.575 and LS7 at 5.900. Most pistons are tapered approximately .050” from bottom to top to accommodate for thermal expansion. It is important that a piston skirt be at full diameter at bdc. The necessary taper must be introduced at a point above this. When the piston is at full diameter at bdc, it will not rock and the bottom of the cylinder will not dig into the skirt-which causes rapid wear. Reducing piston rock also keeps the rings perpendicular to the bore and oil control is much better. It’s also recommended that the bottoms of the cylinders are deburred with a cartridge roll around the circumference. This information applies to a number of different engines and can be used as a guide to prevent rapid failure. Forged Piston manufacturers have different specifications for a piston’s skirt taper depending on the application and it’s important that a customer speaks with them directly to verify proper design. “

[hotrdblder]

your in good hands, brian nutter is the piston man for sure, he has never let me down

[Steve1968LS2]

New shocks have been custom valved and installed...

550 lb front springs and 300 lb rear springs.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Steve1968LS2]

For those curious about stroker info... Here's a shot of the piston at BDC and how much it exits the cylinder. Not as much as I thought.

Tomorrow (16th) is the date for the dyno.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[hotrdblder]

looks great, are the shocks adjustable?
what made them go to 300 spring rate?

[Steve1968LS2]

looks great, are the shocks adjustable?
what made them go to 300 spring rate?

Non-adjustable.. for a couple of reasons.

1. The shock is so short that they didn't want the rebound adj on the shaft (since it would shorten the travel even more). Heim to heim is 12.5 rear and 13" front.

2. Bilstein didn't want to do the remote deal yet and want to try and valve them the right way.

Steve at Race Car Dynamics worked with several people including SCCA autocross racer Mike Meyer (sp?). They determined that for what I want to do that 300 would be good in the back. In fact mike wanted to go more. lol.

If I add a rear bar down the line I could back down to a 250. We went to 550 in the front because they didn't have a 10" 600 lb spring in front. Should be fine though.

Will see when it hits the road. Fascinating stuff on the roll center aspect. I'm at 8.5 right now and I'm not at the lowest setting. No wonder the car is so compliant.

Can't wait to dyno the 402 tomorrow... Old numbers were 568 hp and 501 tq... wonder what the new ones will be?

[72NovaSS]

I'm positive you will hit the 600hp mark!

Post up those #'s when you get them.

Good luck with the dyno Steve!

[Damn True]

Hyperco has a spring in that range I think.

[Steve1968LS2]

Hyperco has a spring in that range I think.

Yea, and I could use my Alston 9" 600 lb springs.. but I thought I would try the 550s since they seem more reasonable.

I have quite the inventory of springs at this point. lol

[zbugger]

I think you'll be happier with the 300's out back. You'll definitely feel the difference once you drive the car. Up front, I think the 600's would be better, but you got a great place to test your car, so run with what you can. Great seeing the updates.

[hotrdblder]

steve sounds good.
i run 550's with an ls up front also,but i have a bigger bar then you.
those are some short shocks. can't wait to see it go.
jake

[parsonsj]

I have quite the inventory of springs at this point. lolI know, me too! I think making springs might be a good way to make some money since it seems people end up owning more springs than DVDs.

jp

[Payton King]

after all of this is dialed in. I am needing some new front shocks and you are getting the valving sorted out. I am excited for you and me both.

Are you running the front in the droop state or will the LCA be paralle to the ground?

Any plans to change the front bar?

Jim Pettigrew took measurements with a camber gauge and the 21st sub is doing 1 degree per 1 inch of travel with the pucks in the center. Did you get the same? Are you going to mess with the UCA location?

[Steve1968LS2]

Electrcal (coil) issues today.. best pull was only 552/534

Not bad though.. better than before.

I have new coils and wires.. try again in the AM.

[Steve1968LS2]

after all of this is dialed in. I am needing some new front shocks and you are getting the valving sorted out. I am excited for you and me both.

Are you running the front in the droop state or will the LCA be paralle to the ground?

Any plans to change the front bar?

Jim Pettigrew took measurements with a camber gauge and the 21st sub is doing 1 degree per 1 inch of travel with the pucks in the center. Did you get the same? Are you going to mess with the UCA location?

I'm not smart enough to mess with the UCA locations... That's the problem with a car this tunable.. you need talented people to tune it. lol

Might try stiffer front bar, will eventually add a rear bar but I want to see how it feels with the new stuff first.

Will hopefully test again before SEMA.. I need fresh cone rash for the event.

[barraza]

A suggestion when all this is done.
If ever there was a perfect case, your car is it for swapping over to air ride. Air has come a long way, but swapping an optimized coilover car would be a put up or shut up event. The cost of air could also be directly compared to the cost of optimizing coilovers. I suspect that the performance would be very close, and the deciding factors would be cost, ease of tuning and the ability of air to easily make it street friendly.

[Jimmy Sean]

A suggestion when all this is done.
If ever there was a perfect case, your car is it for swapping over to air ride. Air has come a long way, but swapping an optimized coilover car would be a put up or shut up event. The cost of air could also be directly compared to the cost of optimizing coilovers. I suspect that the performance would be very close, and the deciding factors would be cost, ease of tuning and the ability of air to easily make it street friendly.

X2 I agree

[Damn True]

Yea, and I could use my Alston 9" 600 lb springs.. but I thought I would try the 550s since they seem more reasonable.

I have quite the inventory of springs at this point. lol


I'd check to see that they are "actually" 600lb first. I don't know where Alston gets his springs.

[Steve1968LS2]

I'd check to see that they are "actually" 600lb first. I don't know where Alston gets his springs.

Yea, I will have them checked. Race Car Dynamics checked the ones I'm now running. They are made for them by Carolina Coil (I think that was the name)

[Steve1968LS2]

Best pull was 561/534

Was hoping for more but it's better than before. Notice that the curve is up everywhere except the very top. More toque is a good thing.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[hotrdblder]

steve, didn't you make 580 hp last time? or am i mistaken?
do you have the sheet for the original build?

[Larry Callahan]

Sweet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve1968LS2]

steve, didn't you make 580 hp last time? or am i mistaken?
do you have the sheet for the original build?

Long story..

Back in PHR the story was listed at 572/505 in that build... but we reviewed the files and found that those numbers were made with a ported out FAST intake. In this test we only had a regular fast intake so we found the file where we tested with it (to be fair).

And while the peak HP number is nearly identical to the one we compared to the "average HP" is way up. More importantly (and the point of me doing this) is that torque is up everywhere, in some places by 50 lb-ft.

The black line on the posted dyno chart (CAM 27) is the stock short block, FAST intake (non-ported), 228/230 114+4 cam and the same AFR heads from my old engine done two years ago. Oh, and it had my 1 7/8 stepped headers (which are more than likely a tad better than the dyno headers).

That make sense?

[Vegas69]

Looks like you have accomplished your goals. The torque comes on sooner compared to your old combo that looked peaky and needed rpm. It's not big block torque but it's going to pull out of the hole much better. Hopefully traction won't be the problem now.

[hotrdblder]

steve, yes it does. goodluck, penny should have some nice grunt now.

[bwhinnen]

Steve are you getting more timing advance up high compared to the old tune? Also I assume the fuel injectors are sized with enough headroom etc?

Other than that the curve looks brilliant, torque is on hard and fast, would be lovely to see it stay for another 500rpm at least though :)

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve are you getting more timing advance up high compared to the old tune? Also I assume the fuel injectors are sized with enough headroom etc?

Other than that the curve looks brilliant, torque is on hard and fast, would be lovely to see it stay for another 500rpm at least though :)

Yea, injectors have room left. They are FAST 39 lb units.

I think the timing was a tiny bit higher.. 26 rather than 24 but I would have to review the data.

The cam is done by 6500... maybe down the line that would be cool to try and hit. The main thing I wanted was down low torque.

[chicane67]

They determined that for what I want to do that 300 would be good in the back. In fact mike wanted to go more. lol.


Sounds exactly like the conversation we had just before you started this little tweak session. PM me the valving numbers the boys came up with.

[Steve1968LS2]

Sounds exactly like the conversation we had just before you started this little tweak session. PM me the valving numbers the boys came up with.

lol.. yea.. earily familiar.. :)

He's supposed to get them for me... will post them asap.

rears are mounted inverted for clearance reasons.

So, I need to do a story on ROLL CENTER theory... I'm a little foggy on the topic.

[David Pozzi]

Steve, Your subframe uses C5 suspension correct? The Corvette suspension has different spring motion ratios than a Camaro sub. It may be closer to a Camaro than a C4 though. A 600 lb spring on a C4 would be very very stiff.

What rate front coil was on there?
A 300 rear coil is probably good. Springs don't change roll rates much however.

[Steve1968LS2]

A 600 lb spring was on there at the Super Chevy event. Now the fronts are 550 lb.

The shocks are at more of an angle compared to a shock on a stock C5 'Vette. I think that's why I can get away with 600 (or 550). The ride really isn't bad.

We now have the option of rasing the Watt's knuckle if we wish one notch. I think the valving is going to help as well.

[Payton King]

sub. The bump steer was dialed out of the car with the caster set at 5 degrees. If you have rolled 6 or 7 degrees in you will get a little bump steer. I know the alignment specs should be set like a 2000 Corvette, except for the caster setting....that should be at 5 degrees like previously stated.

I would be curious to know why chevy went from 6 degrees of caster in 2000 to 7 degrees in later years?

I would also be curious as to what the corvette team was running on the C5 race cars.

What alignment specs are you running for the auto cross and the track day?

[Payton King]

With the caster set at 5.7 yielded 1/32 toe change with 1 inch of compression....which is 1/64 on each side. He got 1/32 going up an inch and 1/16 at 2 inches.

No good way to compress more than 1 inch without taking the shocks off.

[Steve1968LS2]

Forgeline just sent me over this picture of the rear wheels.. :drool:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[David Pozzi]

I doubt the C5R used the stock spindle, but perhaps the same dimensions. I did hear they use more agressive camber gain than stock to suit their race tires.

A web search turned up the C5's use rates in the 600 to 625 range.
Did you find it toed out under bump or in?
David

[Damn True]

I'm certain that LG motorsports did not use the OE spindle on their cars. I'd assume the same for Pratt & Miller.

[Payton King]

and spent a good amount of time going through Corvette Forum getting information. Here is a quick run down on what I found.

The stock rubber bushings deflect up to 1/4 inch in Autocross and Track days using R compounds or better. This can be fixed 3 different ways. Use the GM T1 bushings for the Corvette, after market poly bushings or full on spherical race bushings.

Under hard load the lower eccentrics can move changing your alignment. You can drill the eccentrics and put a 1/4 inch bolt to hold them in place. I think it would be cool to do a street alignment and drill a hole, then do a track alignment and drill a hole. That way you could change it with out having to go to the alignment shop. Get a set of toe plates to adjust your toe when you make the change.

A company also makes camber plates that replace the lower eccentrics. This locks in more camber than you get with the eccentrics. Then you shim the top like a conventional car to get the amount you want.

Alignment specs:

Dual Street/Track-aggressive for R compound tires minimal street driving. This setting will cause wear on the inside edges of steet tires.

Camber -1.6
Caster 5 to 8 degrees
toe 0.0

Dedicated Track car with race tires, DOT or slicks

Camber -2.5
Caster 3 to 6 degrees
toe 0.0

Some were saying to run up to 1/8 toe out as it will make the car turn in quicker but sometimes in will cause a mid turn push.

Since you have the Pozzi's in your corner there is no doubt you are in good hands and they know what they are doing. Since the 21st is C5 stuff I pulled info for the C5. Hopefully these are good starting points for y'all to get the car right.

As far as parts go: WWW.pfadtracing.com (http://www.pfadtracing.com) for bushings and camber plates

David, that was toe out on the compression.

[Steve1968LS2]

My bumpstear..which was minor and only under compression...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

My alignment specs.. his "aggressive street C5" program:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Thoughts? I will be getting it re-aligned before the event/SEMA

[Bow Tie 67]

" This setting will cause wear on the inside edges of steet tires. "

The Camber is set at 1.7 my 69.

1 A/X 3 track days and 1200 miles

The tires have a noticeable list when off the car.

[hotrdblder]

steve, .08 is not aggressive, i run -2.0 on the street with no or very minimal inner tire wear after 2000 miles, for your event i would look to have at least -2.5 and if you have r888 on there go for 2.75 , caster looks good, also put an 1/8th inch toe out in it before event, helps turn in, etc. at event set tires to 30-32 psi cold, check them after running, should be no more ten 20 degree spread across tire if set up properly for the track your running.

[Payton King]

LG Motorsports did do their own spindle (steering knuckle) but the only difference in was it had a 1 inch drop built in. Nothing else was changed. Cool think about a corvette is the same knuckle on the front is used in the back. On the front you use the bearing pack and on the rear you run the half shaft through the hole.

I agree with Jake. I would dial in as much static camber as you can get and let the caster fall where it may. I am not sure how much you can get with the eccentrics full over...just for the competition.

I would also change out the bushings to the polys from Pfadt. I think they are $280 for a set, but it also does the rear for a corvette. You may call them and see if they will sell you a set just for the front.

I would definitely pin the eccentrics so they do not move. Once the alignment is set, drill a hole and tap it, put a screw in it for insurance.

I would use Jakes recs on the front bar. The Speedway bars all work with the same pillow blocks that you have and arms. May want to get a bigger bar and try it out. On Speedway's site they have a chart with bar sizes and arm lengths. I am guessing the bar that Jake is using on his will be right on the money for your car.

Have you driven you car with the new motor yet?

Are the shocks finished?

[Steve1968LS2]

Burning the midnight oil at Best Of Show...

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[David Pozzi]

Payton, Great info!

I like this recommendation:
"Dual Street/Track-aggressive for R compound tires minimal street driving. This setting will cause wear on the inside edges of steet tires.

Camber -1.6
Caster 5 to 8 degrees
toe 0.0"

The A arm bushings would help, I'm not fond of Poly bushings, but they would be better than stock bushings.

I'm not up on what Corvette's need, but do recall autoxers bending the front cradle inward to get more neg camber. Of course it was illegal for stock class but they were doing it.

I saw Corvettes at the races using a billet fabricated front upright, the guy told me they were a lot stronger, didn't break like stock spindles under racing conditions. I wonder if they were LG spindles?
David

[69camarokid]

Those new wheels are godly...

[Payton King]

bending the cradle to get more camber. David Farmer is a corvette racer that is local and Pettigrew said that some use to do that, but for some reason I think it was on the C4...probably on the C5 as well. There is not a lot of camber adjustments with the eccentrics.

I am not sure you can get as much camber out of a 21st sub frame as Jake reccommended. I know his frame has a lot built in and is a much more agressive piece....which I like!

[Steve1968LS2]

Found my radiator has FOUR leaks in the core.. can't be fixed.. I'm having a new one fabbed up.. argh!

My powder paint was delayed a day so that Robbie Gordon could get his damn racecar chassis coated.. :rolleyes:

Gotta love it!

[hotrdblder]

always something steve
what caused the leaks? work hardening? can't wait to see penny done

[Z06killinSBF]

It's looking great, no progress pics???

[Steve1968LS2]

The engine drop was last night... tomorrow we stuff in the trans, clutch, etc and wire it back up.

I could post a pic of the junk radiator.. but that would seem overly dramatic. lol

Parts continue to roll in.. Wheels might show tomorrow.

[Damn True]

The manufacturer can't? Or won't fix it?

[Steve1968LS2]

The manufacturer can't? Or won't fix it?

I found out today.. will call them tomorrow.

Right now it's a time issue, so unless they have one sitting on thier shelf ready to go.. well, it won't be an option.

If I have one made I will have them fix this on as a spare.

It's really a big PITA.

[David Pozzi]

With a cap type radiator and Dex-Cool, there is a danger if you have small leaks, when the sytem cools down, instead of sucking coolant from the reservoir, air can be sucked in through a leak spot. The reservoir might look up to snuff, but there would be air in the radiator which would react with the Dex-Cool. I see on the pickups that came with Dex-Cool the reservoir was as high as possible so gravity would help refill the radiator even if there was a leak. Then around the time the late 90's GM went to the pressurized coolant tanks.

[Steve1968LS2]

Thanks David... good info.

AFCO is next day airing out a new radiator. We "think" the leaks were vibration related.. they will do a post mortem..

[David Pozzi]

I have an AFCO race raditator for my 67, it's got an engine heat exchanger built in on the left tank. It's a generic fit race piece, not very shiny, but I plan on sprucing it up. Mary has their direct fit $$$ one in her 73 Camaro and it's darn nice, but no built in cooler.

David

[artwiggins]

I been away for a while... but I will be drooling over bad penny again... probably all nite

[Steve1968LS2]

We installed the new Centerforce light metal dual-friction clutch last nigth. Also got the chance to install an SFI bellhousing from Quicktime. Let me tell you, the Quicktime bellhousing is a VERY nice piece! Very happy with it.

With that in we installed the new Rockland Standard Gear built T56 transmission. Here Jim from Classic 5-Speed gives us a hand. He knows all of the install tricks.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[cees67]

his hands look awfully clean for 6:26 p.m lol!

[Steve1968LS2]

his hands look awfully clean for 6:26 p.m lol!

1. We wash often
2. New parts are clean

;)

[T_Raven]

his hands look awfully clean for 6:26 p.m lol!

and he's wearing a ring:slap:

[Damn True]

What....were you in hopes that he was single?





Hey Steve...check your PM's

[derekf]

What....were you in hopes that he was single?I think it's more in the accidentally-rip-your-finger-off-hazard mindset that it was pointed out.

[T_Raven]

What....were you in hopes that he was single?





Hey Steve...check your PM's



ha! good one. just surprised that i see so many people working on cars with their ring on. it's a good way to lose a finger, short it on something and melt it to your finger, or if nothing else just damage the ring.

[Damn True]

I know. It was a joke.

I worked on CG helicopters for eleven years and it used to drive my 1st wife nuts when I'd leave my ring at home when I went to work.

[Steve1968LS2]

I leave my ring off when working on the car.. ticks off my wife when it's in a picture off.

We even said to Jim "Hey, your wife will be happy you're wearing your ring"... that's why he's lauging in the shot.

Anyways.. he was just posing in the shot holding the trans.. not much chance for injury.

[compos mentis]

1. We wash often

:lol:

You're almost as quick as Penny!

[compos mentis]

When do you estimate being back on the road?

[Steve1968LS2]

When do you estimate being back on the road?Next Wednesday.. (fingers crossed)

New radiator showed today
New oil pressure sender showed today
Fessler trunk hinges showed today..

And best of all.. new Forgelines showed today :woot:

17x10 wheel.. weight 21.15 lbs
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Looks like we nailed the backspacing.. plenty of room.. lol
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

So, who says you can't run big brakes with 17s...

Hood is painted and cleared... now needs to be color sanded and buffed (and the bottom side shot in satin clear)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[compos mentis]

And best of all.. new Forgelines showed today :woot:

17x10 wheel.. weight 21.15 lbs
Looks like we nailed the backspacing.. plenty of room.. lol

So, who says you can't run big brakes with 17s...

Hood is painted and cleared... now needs to be color sanded and buffed (and the bottom side shot in satin clear)

Wow, Young Penny is maturing nicely!

[Damn True]

Nice.

Check your PM's.

[zbugger]

...And best of all.. new Forgelines showed today :woot:

17x10 wheel.. weight 21.15 lbs
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Looks like we nailed the backspacing.. plenty of room.. lol
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Oh man... Those look so... So... Damn... I can't wait to see pics of it on the ground.

[454bug]

Hey Steve,

Are you running the Wilwood 14" rotors??

How close are the tie rod ends to the wheels at full lock?

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
Can you list your latest corner weights for Penny?
Also can you measure the rear shock positions for me? I need left to right distance shock bottom to shock bottom, also top to top across the car.

1 I need the height of the bell-crank from ground with car on it's wheels, and what is the hole spacing for the pivot?

2. is your front bar stock corvette type? what diameter? arm length? if it's non stock, do you know the rate?

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
Can you list your latest corner weights for Penny?
Also can you measure the rear shock positions for me? I need left to right distance shock bottom to shock bottom, also top to top across the car.

1 I need the height of the bell-crank from ground with car on it's wheels, and what is the hole spacing for the pivot?

2. is your front bar stock corvette type? what diameter? arm length? if it's non stock, do you know the rate?

Earlier in the thread there's a pic of the car scaled BEFORE we made the wheel/hood/engine changes... and none of the shocks were set for pre-load.

I will get those measurements for you tomorrow.

I do know that we have three positions we can use for the Watt's bell crank. Currently we are in the middle of the three and the bell is about 8.5 inches off the ground. I think it moves two inches per a position. I will double check tomorrow.

I think the front bar is one inch solid.. I will confirm. Upper and lower control arms are stock Corvette (C5)

[Steve1968LS2]

Hey Steve,

Are you running the Wilwood 14" rotors??

How close are the tie rod ends to the wheels at full lock?

13-inch

I have no clearance issues.

[Steve1968LS2]

Busy day today...

Hood is color sanded and buffed. Unfortunatly our lift broke so we couldn't work under the car, but I did get the engine mostly assembled. Once the trans crossmember is in place I can bolt down the intake and plug it all in. Will put in the radiator tomorrow. Everything fits just perfect.

Here's a rough preview of how the car will look. Need to be lower in the front but you get the idea. The hood is just sitting on there, so it's not aligned or anything.

The new wheels/tires look KILLER... I love em..

275/40/17 and 315/35/17 R888

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Like I said, engine is mostly together. New Powermaster alternator is black thermal coated (old one blew the bearing). Chris re-routed the brake lines to move them away from heat. New Canton remote oil filter is mounted near the sway bar. Added a new drivers side valve cover with another breather. Other than that it's pretty much the same.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[FirstGenZq8]

17x10 wheel.. weight 21.15 lbs

excellent. thank you for weighing them. did you weigh your rear wheels as well? what model are your ZX3 wheels (Premier Series, Street Series or Competition Series)? reason i ask is here: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48248

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
I found your corner weights.
Looking at your spring frequencies it shows you have enough spring rate at 600 front and 250 or 300 rear, what you are lacking is roll stiffness which is provided by the anti roll bars. Stiffer springs don't affect roll rate very much, not like an anti-roll bar does.

I need more info on the front bar and rear pivot height to get a better picture of what your total roll stiffness is.

For the bar measurements I need bar OD and ID if hollow. I need the width of the middle part bend to bend, I have the width eye to eye /--------\

[Damn True]

The car looks way better IMO with more sidewall on the tires.

[rlplive]

Man that looks incredible, as if your car wasn't already so badass.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
I found your corner weights.
Looking at your spring frequencies it shows you have enough spring rate at 600 front and 250 or 300 rear, what you are lacking is roll stiffness which is provided by the anti roll bars. Stiffer springs don't affect roll rate very much, not like an anti-roll bar does.

I need more info on the front bar and rear pivot height to get a better picture of what your total roll stiffness is.

For the bar measurements I need bar OD and ID if hollow. I need the width of the middle part bend to bend, I have the width eye to eye /--------\

It's a splined bar.. so no bends. Do you just want total length? Pretty sure it's a solid bad.. actually I'm positive.

Is 550 front ok or 600 better? Sticking with 300 in the rear. Mike Meyers (SCCA) wanted even more.

[Steve1968LS2]

excellent. thank you for weighing them. did you weigh your rear wheels as well? what model are your ZX3 wheels (Premier Series, Street Series or Competition Series)? reason i ask is here: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48248

For some funny reason the rears weighed less.. 20.85 lbs

Competition series.. Titanium bolts, jet nuts...

[David Pozzi]

It's a splined bar.. so no bends. Do you just want total length? Pretty sure it's a solid bad.. actually I'm positive.

Is 550 front ok or 600 better? Sticking with 300 in the rear. Mike Meyers (SCCA) wanted even more.

In that case, I need the diameter, width arm to arm, then the arm lengths center of bar, to center of end link hole. If the arms connect to stock locations on the lower A arms, I have that.

I'd go with the 300's on the rear since you don't have a rear bar, and the 600 fronts. The fronts look very stiff, but right now, you need them for what roll stiffness they do provide. When you get the right bars on it, the front coils can probably be softened.
David

[67SSDan]

Looks awesome man. Keep the posts coming. I can't wait to see pictures of it at a slight distance.

Dan

[55chevyman]

boy do i like that new rubba!!!

[David Pozzi]

Non-adjustable.. for a couple of reasons.

1. The shock is so short that they didn't want the rebound adj on the shaft (since it would shorten the travel even more). Heim to heim is 12.5 rear and 13" front.

2. Bilstein didn't want to do the remote deal yet and want to try and valve them the right way.

Steve at Race Car Dynamics worked with several people including SCCA autocross racer Mike Meyer (sp?). They determined that for what I want to do that 300 would be good in the back. In fact mike wanted to go more. lol.

If I add a rear bar down the line I could back down to a 250. We went to 550 in the front because they didn't have a 10" 600 lb spring in front. Should be fine though.

Will see when it hits the road. Fascinating stuff on the roll center aspect. I'm at 8.5 right now and I'm not at the lowest setting. No wonder the car is so compliant.

Can't wait to dyno the 402 tomorrow... Old numbers were 568 hp and 501 tq... wonder what the new ones will be?

Steve, I found your corner weights and saw this earlier post, so the rear RCH is 8.5"? How many more holes can you raise it? and what are the hole spacings.

Once I have the front bar info I can see what the difference might be between the 550's and 600's. If I understand correctly, the 600's are taller and won't really fit???
David
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[FirstGenZq8]

For some funny reason the rears weighed less.. 20.85 lbs

Competition series.. Titanium bolts, jet nuts...

huh, that's weird. are the rears 17X10's or ??X??'s?

[compos mentis]

huh, that's weird. are the rears 17X10's or ??X??'s?

Here

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showpost.php?p=442746&postcount=35

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve, I found your corner weights and saw this earlier post, so the rear RCH is 8.5"? How many more holes can you raise it? and what are the hole spacings.

Once I have the front bar info I can see what the difference might be between the 550's and 600's. If I understand correctly, the 600's are taller and won't really fit???
David


I can raise the knuckle one more or I can lower it one more from where it is.

RCD didn't make a 9-inch 600# spring so they went with 550s. I had my Alston 600s powdered black (9" 600#) so we do have that option.

Working on the measurements.

[Steve1968LS2]

huh, that's weird. are the rears 17X10's or ??X??'s?

17x12.. but the fronts have a thicker hub so more weight by a tiny bit.

pretty damn light for a 12" wide wheel..

[Steve1968LS2]

Dave,

Sway bar is 1" (could be 1 1/8" but I can't find my caliper) solid. Total length is 34.25" -- the distance between the frame mounts is 29.75"

End link (arms) are 12" long

Bolt for Watt's knuckle is 8.25" off the ground. There is one position higher and one position lower. Each is a change of 2".

Distance from bottom rear shock to bottom of rear shock is 40.5"

Distance from top of rear shock to top of rear shock is 34"

These are all approximate.

[Steve1968LS2]

Dave, here are a couple of old pictures.

Here are a couple of pics... one is sort of blurry...

http://picsorban.com/upload/pensub1.jpg

http://picsorban.com/upload/pensub2.jpg

[chicane67]

...and throw me them valving numbers...

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
You can use an open end wrench to gage the bar diameter.

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
RESULTS:

your front bar is very soft, Your front springs are stiff, so they compensate somewhat, but overall your car is/was low on total roll resistance.

Keep the 550's up front
Run the 300 lb rear coils
Raise the rear watts one hole, I guess that is around 10.5".

Your front to rear balance will be darn near perfect for autox (I hope). You might have to drop the watts for track use, but maybe not. The car will be stiffer in roll than it was before, but roll is reduced by only .5 deg from el-toro configuration, so still lots of roll. I don't really have a way to compensate for larger tires on the rear, and I have made some assumptions that may be wrong, but this combo looks the best.

I think long term, you should increase the front bar rate, and lower the spring rate to get a smoother ride. Same for the rear, add a rear bar for more roll resistance, and soften the rear spring.

A stock C5 bar is 650 lbs, yours is 220lb, Mary's 73 uses around a 650, the C5 example file I had shows a 650 stock rate.
Mary's Camaro uses around a 350lb rear bar and yours has none. The 73 rear RCH is 12.5" (axle center ht), yours 8.5, (10.5 if you raise it).

Your total roll resistance is half what Mary's Camaro has.
David

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve, your front bar is very soft, Your front springs are stiff, so they compensate somewhat, but overall your car is/was low on total roll resistance.

Keep the 550's up front
Run the 300 lb rear coils
Raise the rear watts one hole, I guess that is around 10.5".

Your front to rear balance will be darn near perfect for autox (I hope). You might have to drop the watts for track use, but maybe not. The car will be stiffer in roll than it was before. I don't really have a way to compensate for larger tires on the rear, and I have made some assumptions that may be wrong, but this combo looks the best to me.

I think long term, you should increase the front bar rate, and lower the spring rate to get a smoother ride. Same for the rear, either raise the watts pivot another hole, or add a rear bar.

David

I could buy and new front bar and have it next day shipped... could you point me in the right direction? (link?)

Keep in mind I have the new tires and the rears are smaller (315s) and that the profiles are taller than before.

I do want to add a rear bar... just don't have time before Vegas.

How big of a front bar should I get? Where?

[Steve1968LS2]

Man, I looked all over that damn Speedway site and I can't even find thier splined anti-roll bars...

[B Schein]

http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybars.htm

[Steve1968LS2]

That explains it.. I was at Speedway Motors... lol

Thanks

http://www.1speedway.com/swaybar34.htm

Right now I have a 1" solid bar.. so, what to go with? 1.25 solid? (12 inch arms)

[hotrdblder]

steve, i would suggest a 1.25x.120 or .188 and with a 12 inch arm the rate will be up around 500-600.

[Payton King]

It shows 5XX lbs for a 12 inch arm and 1.25 solid bar 34 inches long.

[Damn True]

Isn't more roll resistance up front going to exacerbate things? I thought the problem was too much up front an not enough in the back?

[Steve1968LS2]

Isn't more roll resistance up front going to exacerbate things? I thought the problem was too much up front an not enough in the back?

No, the problem is too much roll in the rear. A "little" more resistance in the front would help. And it's not like the roll was a huge problem since the car is so compliant, but it would be better to tame it down a tad.

The real fix is an adjustable rear bar, but no time for that before SEMA and the race.

Would be nice to have a couple of bars for the event.. easy enough to swap them out to hit the right balance.

[Damn True]

If you have too much roll in the rear, how is more front roll resistance going to help?

[Mean 69]

I think long term, you should increase the front bar rate, and lower the spring rate to get a smoother ride. Same for the rear, add a rear bar for more roll resistance, and soften the rear spring.


Having never even ridden in the car, I would agree with this assessment. I already know how we'll do the rear bar, it's a bit more tricky for the LD 3-Link due to the gussets we use to reinforce the LCA mounts, can't just bolt something on like a typical aftermarket bar with U-bolts, etc. Will be adjustable, too.

Fundamentally, the car suspension design is solid, front and rear. The approach Steve is taking to tune around the roll issue is the easiest and fastest method (i.e stiff springs, small bar), but ideally, we'd like to approach with "appropriate" rate bars front and rear, and soften the springs to keep the car off the deck in compression (i.e. "big" bar, soft spring approach). That'll have to be Phase 3. That said, this shows the beauty of having a system that you can adjust, many people wouldn't want to do this, but most hot rodders will, and anyone who tracks a car or runs auto-x certainly will appreciate it.

Recall that Steve's car was a Pro Street transformation, and it came to him with modified rear frame rails and a drag style four link. When we adapted the LD 3-Link to the car, we had to work around this, as such the rear crossmember on his car is positioned a lot lower relative to a "stock" install. I was actually a bit surprised at how much lower it is, on a typical car, the lowest Bellcrank (roll center height) location is right about where Steve's is, but his car has the 'crank up one full position. So, everything is lower by about two full inches, which unfortunately plays into bump travel (reduced...), also non-ideal. Not much we can do about that unfortunately, so as a result, in the end, the car might need to be sprung a bit tighter on the rear than we might ideally like.

As it pertains to the roll center height, yep, it's low. I'd venture that it's lower than any other system on the market by a long margin (except for possibly the recent Satchell link setup, haven't seen one in person). Most setups with Panhard bars have a RRCH about equal to the axle centerline, or about 13" or so. Convergent four link setups have significantly higher RRCH in general, and it migrates up in bump. We all have philosophies regarding what's most important, and to me, the Jacking Forces that raise the sprung weight of the car in cornering that are a by-product of a higher RCH (front or rear) are the enemy. I have a hard time tolerating mechanical bind too, but that's just me.

Dave, the front setup uses stock C5 lower control arms, so the motion ratio for the springs, and the roll bar should be the same as stock. I have never measured these directly though, and none of the information I have on file is accurate enough for me to trust. Do you have the real info on the C5 lowers? If so, I'd love to have it.

Steve, if possible in time, get a new front bar. You need to make sure that the splined ends on the new bar are the same as what your current setup is, I know they had at least two different setups that are not compatible with each other. One is a 48 spline, the other is 49, don't know about the ID's. Don't forget, Dean and the guys modified your arms to better fit the setup, the way they came from 21st left a really large gap between the bar ends and the connection "plane" on the lower control arms. If you can't get them to work, I have a set of Speedway drop arms that might be of use, need to heat them and bend them as appropriate. Don't need to heat-treat afterwards, per Speedway, btw. You could also drill three different mounting holes in the arms to give some adjustability, you'll need to drill one anyway, two more won't hurt. Per typical Stock Car approach, the things are bullet proof at 3/4" thick plate steel. Don't forget new bar mounts too, the 1" units obviously won't work with a bigger bar.

Mark

[David Pozzi]

608-120-34
,120 wall, rate with 12" arms 298 rate for 5 deg twist.
My software shows a rate of 308kbs at 1" deflection of 12" arms.

Keep the 550's a drop of 100 lbs of ft spring rate does not do much to the F/R balance, the bar does a whole lot more.

Mark, I have Perf Trends Suspension Analyzer Pro. If you have that, I can send you a file. If you don't, I can send you a printout of the chassis dimensions. Since I don't have your 3 link suspension geometry measurements, I'm using a 4 link with panhard bar in my version. The software does do 3 link, but does not have a watts link option. All I'm really looking at is the rear RCH and shock placement anyway, so this works.
The software came with a 2001 Corvette file, it says "Stock" I haven't verified they are accurate,or that Steve's sub has identical measurements. It allows me to substitute a stick axle rear susp.

I get a front spring frequency of F1.79 R 1.44 Usually the rear is higher than the front, this points towards stiffening the rear and trying softer front springs some day.

I like the idea of using a lower rear roll center height and adding a rear bar to add rear roll stiffness. The benefits should be less rear weight jacking, which would show up on hard corners where you are not on the throttle to push the rear down. So I guess it would be corner entry and mid corner on long sweepers, especially off camber stuff.
David

[compos mentis]

Steve, you mentioned compliant ride a few times. Is there a late model car you could compare Penny's ride quality to?

[Mean 69]

I recall seeing the 'vette numbers in the demo version of Performance Trends, but I also recall that there were some dimensional differences from left to right (i.e. suspension pivot points), so I didn't trust the info. That was years ago, I might be mistaken. I use Win Geo, but they are all pretty much the same, the equations are all the same but the dimension convention is different, no big deal. I would like to see Bill Mitchell's latest additions for the force based roll center determination in WinGEO, but that's a topic for another day. I could send the basic setup with you if you promise not to share with anyone!!!

True, though it usually is pretty tightly coupled, "roll" on one end of the car or both, doesn't necessarily mean "horrible handling." Two main things happen when a car rolls. One, there is a weight transfer of the sprung mass to the laden side of the car, but this is usually smaller in the big picture of things for the typical muscle car setup, meaning this is usually not the priority of things to address when considering roll in and of itself. There is a large weight transfer due to the cornering forces, we all know that, but the incremental difference from the sprung mass transfer for slightly different roll angles is a small contribution.

The other issues is that when a car rolls, the suspension articulates, laden side compresses, the unladen side jounces. For a typical muscle car front setup, this usually means a loss of relative camber for the laden wheel, it usually means a change in caster, and sometimes bump steer, etc. All of this could and usually does affect the maximum grip that the front tires will allow, i.e. reduces from the theoretical. In the rear, for a stick axle, it is not as bad from a camber issue in that the axle is fixed, the camber remains the same for a given roll angle (all things being equal, ignoring flex, etc). However, depending upon the type and execution of the setup, bind can come into play that will reduce the amount of grip available. It is well understood, for example, that when the 90's era Mustang suspension uses up the compliance in the suspension bushings and binds suddenly, you get an immediate snap oversteer issue. So really, the "primary" motivation for a typical muscle car setup is to prevent the suspension from doing anything that upsets the tires due these types of issues.

Steve's car has really good front and rear suspension. I haven't mapped out the front, but in the pictures he has shown with the car being driven in anger, the front wheel attitude looks pretty darned good. The rear setup was specifically designed to eliminate bind, so aside from the weight transfer issue, roll in itself isn't going to upset the tires.

And that's what it really all comes down to, keeping the tires happy. As I understand, Steve's car has mild understeer in the previous form. Changing ONLY the front bar would make things worse, but in this case, he is also stepping up quite a bit in rear spring rate (~33%) which will help balance things out and should bring the whole package up. And the car already hauled booty, it seemed to hold up "quite" well against cars that are many years ahead in tuning and development, and there will still be room for improvement. Pretty cool actually.

Mark

[Gordz32]

It's a moot point anyways...

To move to a 1.25" bar I would need new pillow blocks (no big deal) AND I would need new end bars (big problem). From what I know they are custom bent and I can't new ones fabbed, heat treated and here in time.

Some though that the Speedway bars all tapered down to use the same pillows and bars, that's not true according to them.

Damn.. foiled again. lol

[Gordz32]

Opps.. that was Steven Rupp posting on Chris's account at BOS.

[hotrdblder]

you do not need to heat treat speedway sway bar arms, need a torch and a vice and a drill to match your end link bolt size

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
If the arms are steel, they shouldn't need to be heat treated, just order them, heat to a dull red at the right spot, and bend them. ???

I would also try to drill a couple of extra holes in the arm for tuning use, I'd like to see at least 3 holes, but you need a beefy enough arm so it isn't weakened.

You could probably bend the arms in a press cold as long as they are not hardened so much that they would crack or snap. Speedway can tell you the best method of bending them, hot or cold.
David

If you can't make their appearance look right for SEMA just bring them along and we can swap the bar over after SEMA.

[parsonsj]

My Speedway arms are bent in both planes. No heat treat, and they seem fine after more than 2 years of use.

jp

[David Pozzi]

That's 3 votes in favor, Steve, DO IT!!! :) :banghead:

[Gordz32]

Parts are officially ordered... whole set of 1.25" stuff...

Steven

[David Pozzi]

:cool:

[trapin]

I love the color scheme on the hood Steve.

This car was probably fast as hell before, I can only imagine the power gain after the mods.

Who says a great car can't get better?

[Payton King]

Schroder racing yesterday and they stated that the 34 inch bar is not that common so the choices are limited. They can make a custom bar to whatever specs for $200, which I though was cheap. Only draw back is it will take 3 weeks...which rules that out for this challenge but good information for future tuning.

I spoke with Steve about moving the bar back, shorting the arms thus increase the rate of the bar. He has a remote filter there and cannot move it back.

David- on your program what is the camber gain on a C5 stock set up?

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
How about asking Speedway to make up a 1 1/4" bar with reduced ends, then you could use your existing arms.
I have a splined bar 1 1/8" diameter 36" long with 1" splined ends, so other mfr's must make reduced end bars. I don't know who made mine, perhaps Coleman.

Oops! I just realized why you can't do that, a hollow bar won't have enough metal to turn down. You'd have to weld inserts in the ends to make that work. Guess larger arms are the way to go.

Payton, I'll check the camber gain tonight, I have to fire up my laptop to access the program.

[hotrdblder]

camber gain for stock c5 vette is .60º per inch

[David Pozzi]

Steve, If I were down there, I'd get some 1.250" .120 wall tube, cut your 1" bar ends off leaving 6" stubs, and stick them inside the tube, weld them in and presto! a new bar with your old ends on it! Just have to be careful to clock the splines correctly.
David

[Payton King]

I forgot you had the info as well.

[preston]

Just a note on the C5 stuff - the camber gain straight ahead is pretty modest (0.6 per inch as noted).

But there is a lot of what we might call anti-dive in the geometry, which results in quite a bit of caster gain, and caster gain means camber gain when the wheels are turned, which is of course when you want camber gain. Straight ahead camber gain is really not what we want in the ideal straightline situation as it reduces the tire patch. Of course we need some camber gain or we wouldn't have enough when we are turning. But what kind of reset some of my thinking when looking at the C5 geometry was how much camber gain it had when the wheels are turned. I don't have any numbers in my head, but just for example, if you had 0.6 degrees camber gain in a straight line, and then turn the wheel 5 degrees, your camber gain becomes more like 2 degrees. Again I made those numbers up but the effect was very significant. C5's start off with fairly high caster already usually 6 degrees based on what I've seen.

Just a data point, not sure why you were concerned with the C5 camber gain.

Of course having a lot of anti-dive in the geometry has its own ill effects - I think ideally we would use tilted-in-the-plan view bushing arrangements to achieve that same caster gain without so much "anti-dive" geometry.

[Payton King]

and not trying to hi jack the thread, but I have the same 21st Century sub frame as Steve's except mine is a drop version (1 inch lower) I am ready to start doing some tuning on mine, so I am very interested on what is going on here.

I did not realize the increase gain when turning. The 21st sub is designed with pucks for UCA location. I was trying to decide is moving the positions down or increasing the dive might make it a little more racy.

I have access to the original design modeled up, but have not been able to get up with Ed to go through some different settings. Ed stated that where mine and Steve's are set, they are pretty much in the "sweet spot" from a modeling standpoint.

I thought it might be cool to have it set up for street driving and then be able to set it on kill for a track day or autocross. It may be better to find a really good street/track alignment that will not kill the tires on the street and tune with swaybars and shocks.

Any thoughts for Steve and I?

[Steve1968LS2]

We're screwed...

Got it all together.. turned it over.. seemed fine.

Fired it up and then BAM BAM BAM BAM.. shut it right down.

Looked around and found the bottom of the Canton oil pan was dented a bit.

It's supposed to be a direct replacement for an f-body oil pan, guess not since the f-body pan ran great on the dyno.

Here's a picture of an f-body oil pan.. notice the factory "dent" in the middle front? This is exactly where the Canton pan is dented. Maybe part of it is the stroker but there wasn't an issue with the factory pan.

So, good news is that if fired up.. bad news is that we need to pull the pan. To pull the pan I'm pretty sure we have to drop the trans/clutch/bell.

It's going to be a busy next couple of days..... But, that's hot rodding for ya. Luckily I have the guys at BOS to help. Anyone wanna come wrench on a Camaro? lol

Factory pan with factory divit that Canton skipped...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Steve1968LS2]

Before the big buzz kill.. we were feelling pretty confident at this point. It was 9pm... Chris and **** welding up a new bracket.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Norm Peterson]

Hmmmm . . . not sure I'd have left those wheels and tires uncovered quite that close to all those sparks . . .


Norm

[mach1stang]

Those little sparks are nothing compared to the destruction that new 408 gonna put them through.

[parsonsj]

Sounds like Canton didn't test their pan on stroker cranks!

btw, I can remove my pan with the engine in the car. Just sayin' :)

jp

[David Sloan]

Hmmmm . . . not sure I'd have left those wheels and tires uncovered quite that close to all those sparks . . .


Norm

Man Forget the tires what about the beer! LOL!!

[Bow Tie 67]

Man Forget the tires what about the beer! LOL!!

Good eye David, I thought the same thing about the wheels. But on second look, I had a spark end up in my shoe once, and once is enough.

[compos mentis]

Burning rubber at the track... priceless.

Burning rubber while wheels are off the car...pricey.

:lol:

[Steve1968LS2]

Sounds like Canton didn't test their pan on stroker cranks!

btw, I can remove my pan with the engine in the car. Just sayin' :)

jp

I MIGHT be able to also.. the problem is not dropping it down but getting the right angle to clear the rotating assm and the bellhousing.

If the k-member came out it would be a snap..

Well time to get back at it... never say die!

[Payton King]

You have got to be kidding. What an ass kicker. Drive shaft, sway bar, radiator and now this.

Penny needs to start showing you a little love.

[Ron S]

We've all been there,it does make me wonder how we can call this a hobby.Golf can't be this aggrivating!Just when we get the bugs out of it, we sell it, or upgrade it, and start the whole process over again.Our mothers must have dropped us all on our heads.Good luck Steve.Ron

[Steve1968LS2]

Yep.. we swapped to a Canton pan that was touted as being a "direct replacement" for an f-body pan.. not so much.. lol

My 402 did clear the stock f-bod pan just fine...

After 10 hours of work we are where we should have been last night... and the whole pan ordeal only cost me $700....

Pan carnage:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

After $200 worth of TIG welding... I should sell the "stroker design" to Canton.. maybe for $700.. :lol:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

At 9:30pm we primed the oil and fired the car up.. she purred like a kitten. We just need to bolt on some junk and tidy her up. Put me a day behind so I will drive Penny to Vegas on Sunday morning instead of Saturday morning. No biggie.

[Steve1968LS2]

Another improvement was the addition of this fuel surge tank from John Parsons and Mike Norris. I can't show you the insides but it's baffled and is designed to stop gas from going out the vent during hard manuvering.

It's a prototype and I will give them feedback on some changes but it's a pretty damn nice piece as is. No more tossing gas on the track :woot:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

And here's the parts for the remote oil system.. I have the electonic sendor and a mechanical gauge in there..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Flash68]

Nice work. That fuel surge tank is pretty sweet. Let us know how that works out!

[Steve1968LS2]

Car fired right up last night and idled fine. We put the intake tube on but now it doesn't want to idle. Feels like it's pig rich and flooding.

It goes tomorrow morning to the dyno tuner to see what's up.

Here she is all done... Some things we didn't get to finish. For example the Anvil sits a little high in the back corners so we need to work that area. Still, considering that all we did was scuff and shoot it we're amazed how good it looks and fits. We also need even weaker hinge shocks.

The front ride heigth is off, not low enough. The car is technically almost level but the front needs to drop down a half an inch. BUT there's no more room to adjust the shocks. Bilstein is going to swap for shorter shocks up front after SEMA.

Other than that we got a LOT done in a very short period of time.. Big thanks to ****, Jon, and Chris of Best Of Show.. they don't normally do a lot of mechanical work, but they sure as hell know how to spin a wrench as good as they wield paint guns. :)

Bad Penny track edition...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Larry Callahan]

Looks great again! I can't wait to see it in person. When do you arrive in Vegas?

[Steve1968LS2]

Leaving my house Sunday at 4-5am... eta of 7-9am.. 250 miles

That's if the dyno goes good tomorrow.. (knocking on wood)

[454bug]

Hey Steve,

The car looks GREAT!! :twothumbs

Did you happen to re-weigh your car after finishing the mods?? The old number was 3,241 pounds...

[Steve1968LS2]

Hey Steve,

The car looks GREAT!! :twothumbs

Did you happen to re-weigh your car after finishing the mods?? The old number was 3,241 pounds...

No but we will on November 7th.. Im bringing my digital scales to Vegas and we will weigh the car at ATS before the race deal on Saturday.

Should weigh less.. I would think we dropped 50 lbs... that's a guess though.

Hmm.. I wonder how much the forged Lunati stroker stuff weighs compared to the stock rotating assembly?

[Mkelcy]

You need to start calling ****, Richard.

[Steve1968LS2]

You need to start calling ****, Richard.

Yea, ain't that the truth... damn censors!

[Mkelcy]

I'm following this thread with great interest, as my current '68 Camaro build has the 21st Century subframe and the LD 3 link. I'm hoping to be spared a lot of trial and error.

[David Pozzi]

Just type it D!ck.
Steve, Penny looks meaner with higher profile tires! :)
I hope your flogging is all done, and no more surprises happen. Best Of Show really has gone the extra mile for you on this one!
David

[compos mentis]

Quite a different look obviously.

What do you think Mr. Penny?

[Ron S]

Wow Steve,that thing turned out even more aggressive looking then before.I've always said you built my favorite 68.Your going to make my A.D.D. kick in again,and get me off my Mustang and back on my Camaro.I've got to stop druelling over these pics.Ron http://mysite.verizon.net/ls6ron/

[ProdigyCustoms]

Looks mean Steve! I cannot wait to see it with the street tires and the new hood, I REALLY like the exposed side of the scoop. Accents the cowl nicely.

[BossaNova]

That car is tooooo sick, Steve.
Thanks for sharing.

[Bow Tie 67]

Steve can you post a pic from the side? I want to see the profile look with the 17's, I just ordered new 17 x 9.5 track rims and I'm hoping to fit 275/40/17 R888's on all four corners.

On last thought, have you ever considered blacking out your window trim and chrome, I think it would put the car over the top.

[Damn True]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better with the 17's.

[67SSDan]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better with the 17's.

I would have to agree.

Dan

[formula98]

I'm with you all! I love the look of the 17's looks so mean with this setup...

[compos mentis]

Tough to catch Penny sitting still but here's a side to side comparison (almost). lol

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/05/042608JohnForceCruiseNight035vi-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/penny21tdone-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/badpennydirtroaddr34fr-1.jpg

[Motown 454]

She always was a sweet looking ride! Very Nice

[cjrolke]

any possibility of getting motiv8tr and bad penny together for some photos ??/?

that would be bad ass

[CarlC]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better with the 17's.

Yup.

Which booth at SEMA Steve?

[monza]

How was the drive????

[Kenova]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/11/badpennydirtroaddr34fr-1.jpg

My wall paper :twothumbs

Ken

[Steve1968LS2]

Yup.

Which booth at SEMA Steve?

In the Magnaflow display.. which is outside under thier big rig deal.


The drive was uneventful.. 250 miles in just over 3 hours... Drives nice but needs a bit more tuning.

We started fabbing the new swaybar arms and prepping the car for the event.

Oh, and we got sideways a few times on Tyler's side road.. lol

[David Pozzi]

Here's a camera phone pic of Mary and Steve cleaning up Penny, Tyler in the shade on the right.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Steve1968LS2]

Yea, Mary is a cleaning MACHINE!

I think she was more worried about Penny's appearance than I was..

I want the video of her tossing the car back and forth by Tyler's shop.. looked "grippy"

[zbugger]

What do you think of the suspension changes, Steve? Although I also would love to know what Mary thinks of them as well.

[awr68]

I like both the 17's and 18's....can't go wrong with Penny!!

[Vegas69]

I like both the 17's and 18's....can't go wrong with Penny!!
Bingo....I like the 18's a little better but you know she's going to the track and that makes the 17's that much more attractive.

[hotrdblder]

i am pretty sure the debate was before 18 inch had such performance offerings, most of the alms etc cars and others run 18s, bmw race prepped m3's etc
although the meet of the tire looks great i doubt in the end times will be very different

[class67]

I think that I prefer the 18's now that i've seen it. If it helps out on the track with the 17's then maybe just use them on the track...lol

It is still my favorite car though!

[Steve1968LS2]

The 17's were alway bought with the intent for them to be my "track wheels". This way I won't have to continuously mount and dismount tires off of my pretty rims.

The car looks better with the 18s and meaner with the 17s. Plus I wanted to show that you can have huge brakes and 17" wheels.

The farther weight is moved from the center of the hub the more negatively it effects performance. So, for this reason, 17s have a performance advantage. Not that much but a little and a LOT more compared to something like a 20.

This applies to both braking and acceleration.

I like the new suspension change so far. Feels very different. Will know better once it's tossed through some cones and curves.

[David Pozzi]

Steve, it would be interesting to weigh both sizes to compare. You may get a lighter wheel with a 17" but a heavier tire, probably a trade off.
CarlC had his car used for wheel size tests, but I forgot which they liked the best.
David

[Steve1968LS2]

True.. although I would imaging the 315/35/17 is lighter than the 335/30/18

The fronts are most likely a wash with the 17 being slighly heavier due to the 40 aspect ratio. I will get weights from TOYO.

[CarlC]

Steve, it would be interesting to weigh both sizes to compare. You may get a lighter wheel with a 17" but a heavier tire, probably a trade off.
CarlC had his car used for wheel size tests, but I forgot which they liked the best.
David

17's worked the best for me. With a larger rim/lower sidewall it got kinda hairy when the tire was pushed to the limit since there was little warning between tire squeel and breaking traction.

It will be very interesting to get Mary's opinion.

[Steve1968LS2]

Yea, I think it's more about the taller sidewall than the actual size of the rim.

I want to hear what Mary and David thinks of it.

[Mean 69]

Steve, nice to see that things worked out. I saw D!ck last night, he told me about the deal, you guys clearly worked hard to get the car there. All of us that follow the adventure appreciate it, and I agree, the car just looks downright nasty with the dark rims. Evil, in a good sort of way. Enjoy the show!

Mark

[David Pozzi]

I've found the 40 series tires less fussy when you exceed their limits cornering. Shorter sidewall tires seem to have less load capacity and once the tire loses grip it takes longer to grab again. The 40 series may also have a bit better forward traction.

Mark, the more I see of your system, the more I like it. Excellent job!

Right now, the car seems pretty well balanced, but Mary didn't get it actually sliding on her short drive. She just zig-zagged it a bit and the road was dirty so not a good test.
David

[Damn True]

Mark, the more I see of your system, the more I like it. Excellent job!

David

I like the sound of that!

[67speedfreak]

Steve,
Is that a Carbon front spoiler on there?
I tried to message you about one of our spoilers like the one on MotiV8r.

Let me know if you still need one.

[Mean 69]

Thanks Dave, I hope you all have a good time at the show and during the event on Saturday, and as always I look forward to the feedback. Glad you like the setup, there is a LOT of thought, experiment, experience from folks who actually race cars, and just a ton of time put into the design. I clearly don't have the engineering budget, and even more so, the advertising budget that much of the competition has. I suppose I could toot the horn a lot more about the kit as one typically sees on the forums, not my style though. Seems like everyone has the best setup for everyone's application (just ask them, and many times you might get a free set of Ginsu knives if you call in the next few minutes, best deal in town!!!), but I continue to have supreme confidence that this system can't be beat in terms of a commercially available system. I have seen many of the systems that are being introduced recently, some good variety out there, but still not the functional capability as the LD 3-Link. There will always be nay-sayers, but the customers are happy, and to be honestly competitive with cars from DSE, AirRide, etc, with the nearly decade (or more) headstart that they have in dialing in their setups while having signifiantly less run time and data to tune our own, well, I'm very pleased so far. And getting better. Quickly.

Hope to see you all on Saturday, but if not, just have a great time, as I am sure you will.

If any of you out there are reading this on November 4th, and you have not voted yet, get your butts out there and do so. It is your right, privaledge, don't take it for granted. No matter who you wish to win, or what you think about many of the issues, don't forget that this is STILL the best damn country in the world, and many people have scarificed themselves for your right to express your opinion, and have protected your right to vote freely.

Mark

[scogin918]

Hey Steve, where did you put your coils? With the engine being set back that close to the firewall, it doesn't look like there is alot of room left for the normal threaded rod bracket off of the back of the head.