Ball Joint Failure last night

[protour_chevelle]

Well I'm still completely sketched out and have no desire in driving my car anymore. Last night was cruise night. Went down to the lot, went for a cruise. Had to head home to grab money for a friend. Keep in mind I drive this car hard. Thats why I built it. Thats why it doesn't have super flashy paint either. Now right when I backed out of my driveway, the car made a loud BANG, and hit the road. All while backing up. This is what I found when I looked under the hood. I am going to look at my reciepts. I believe this was a moog or howe joint.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0396-1.jpg

Sheared right off at the castle nut!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0397-1.jpg

Gayness, shock leaked everywhere. Suspected that the LCA is tweaked.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0394-1.jpg

Doesn't look right.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0393-1.jpg

Had to pull the hood off. Intercooler, tranny cooler, etc was too low to use the scraper or whatever its called.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0391-1.jpg

Well, early year for the car. Time to sit inside and collect dust.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0399-1.jpg

The rim is pooched, shock, LCA, tire, fender, and am now completely turned off from the car.

Anyone have any insight as to why this happened? I am running 1.9" Spacers in the front which could be a factor. However MANY and I mean MANY guys run wider adapters to run the ZR1 and Z06 wheels on other cars that are road coursed religously.

-Matt Kuehn

[Bow Tie 67]

Was the ball joint torqued to the correct value? From the pick of the broken upper stud / castle nut it almost looks like it had been over-tightened.

[Apogee]

Go buy a lottery ticket.

Hate to see that anywhere, but be thankful it happened at low speed and nobody got hurt. Thanks for sharing...this is something everybody who modifies their own cars should see and be aware of since safety should always be a concern. Not to say that you would have seen this type of failure before it occurred short of a full race prep before driving it...but something to keep in mind for the rest of us.

I wouldn't think that the adapters have anything to do with it since you're running a very high positive offset wheel as well, with the two essentially cancelling each other out. Your tires appear to be centered in the wheel wells, just like they would be with any other setup. This relative position is what determines your ball joint loading. Lifted trucks with lower backspacing wheels and/or stock backspacing with adapters tend to be hard on ball joints, not so much with cars where the tires are more or less located by the fenders and frame.

I've seen over-torqued and under-torqued ball joints break just like yours. I've also seen them break because of what appeared to be a burr on the tapered hole in the spindle. Most of the strength of a ball joint comes from the tapered seat, so if the spindle is boogered up, the likelihood of getting things to torque properly is very low and the odds of a failure go up exponentially.

Tobin

[class67]

It scares the sh*t out of me to see this kind of thing.

I'm sorry that this happened but at the same time don't get discouraged....hang in there, fix it and move on.

[protour_chevelle]

I remember everything being torqued as per what what the companies told me to do(coleman racing). So not totally sure on that part. Maybe something interesting will show up when its all ripped apart.

I also posted this for the exact reasons mentioned above. This is part of OUR hobby. This is what can happen. Just thank god that it happened when and where it did.

[Tony_SS]

Not trying to lay any blame, but do you know for sure which brand of ball joint it was?

[WILWAXU]

That's some scary stuff!

[BonzoHansen]

what spindle are you using?

[protour_chevelle]

Not trying to lay any blame, but do you know for sure which brand of ball joint it was?

Moog part number k6141

Spindles are coleman racing.

[LowBuckX]

Grrrrr my car developed a noise where it sounds like the hole front end is loose and I cant track it down... everything is new..... Just like you Im hesitant to drive it now...

[Pro-Tour Heavy Chevy]

Strange... I had the exact same thing happen to my 71 Chevelle and on the passenger side. Mine was with a Howe ball-joint. I was backing out of my driveway when it let loose. With mine though the nut had backed off and ate through the cotter pin and snapped off at the cotter pin hole. I spoke with Mark at SC and C and he had a replacement with a beefier threaded stud and after about an hour I was back on the road. I had torqued the failed part at the factory specs which turned out to bee too much for the Howes, so when Mark sold me the replacements they were suppose to be able to handle to factory torque specs. But get this... 6 months later I heard a Clunk in the front end and as it turns out, the nut had backed off again and the nut was working its way through the cotter pin, so I had to cut off the nut and replace it with another one and re-assemble it. This is all with Stock drum brake spindles. I checked the Driver side and it hasn't moved a bit. Tomorrow I'll be pulling the wheel and checking it again and making any adjustments. A failure like this can be unnerving. Mine failed after a blast on the freeway.

[protour_chevelle]

That is very interesting to hear. I'd love for that to be the case! Just a miss torqued piece. I tore the car apart. Looks like it broke 1 thread up from the taper. A couple guys mentioned that some ball joints can only take their specified torque. Not a factory torque rating. Going to look into this more. The shock is umm interesting. It rubbed from the a arm slamming the ground moving the very short coil and adjuster. But no dents. Very curious how the threaded top came out like it did. Also, the wheel may be salvagable. I couldn't get a decent picture showing the true damage on it. Now I have to figure out how I can verify that the LCA is not tweaked?


Ball joint
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0401-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0403-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0412-1.jpg

Shock
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0404-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0408-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0409-1.jpg

Wheel
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0414-1.jpg

[Pro-Tour Heavy Chevy]

I guess I got off luckier than you. I have globalwest lowers and the spring pocket just landed on the ground and the wheel tilted inwards and tweaked the fender a little, which I was able to easily fix and my headers took a beating as well. Sorry to see that happen to another. The wheel should be able to be fixed

[Mkelcy]

Ball joint
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0401-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/100_0403-1.jpg


I'm NOT a mechanical engineer, but that looks like a twisting failure for all but the last bit (the higher triangular piece at the top of the lower picture), which looks like it pulled apart.

[HILROD]

It also looks like the taper didn't have a good press fit. It might only be the pics but, it should have been stuck pretty good along a good amount of the taper.

[Patrick]

FWIW there has been an alarming increase of counterfeit parts--including Moog. Not just limited to parts but also bolts-- labeled Grade 8 that are worthless.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Jan_18/ai_n8699430

http://www.allbusiness.com/transportation-warehousing/374312-1.html



Patrick

[Skip Fix]

Now you have me wondering if I should put those low friction Howe's in my drag Camaro I just puled the front end off to freshen! Maybe those stock MOOGS are OK!

[WS6]

I'd say it failed from too much torque. That's definitely torsion that ripped the stud apart. The only way to get torsion at that point is too much torque. The problem that arises is is the part a junk part like Patrick has posted(Corvette guys are having high rates of ball joint failures too only it's the joint and not the stud twisting off like yours) or is the stud not designed to handle the same torque as factory specs. I don't blame you for being concerned or outright scared. Glad to know this all happened in your drive way.

[79T/Aman]

well it also looks as if there is a rust line through the stud

[TPI Monte SS]

But, how do you over-torque something like that? When I installed my Howe tall LBJ's at the beginning of summer, I cranked down on them with a 1/2" breaker bar until I got it to line up nice with a hole for the cotter pin. Is it possible I over-tightened mine? If I did, are they now screwed, or can I loosen it up slightly with no ill effects?

[Hammered]

Look at the "tree rings" on the stud. That shows how it failed over time until it pulled apart at the high spot. It also looks like there is fine rust on the taper so probably a poor fit. A torsional failure wouldn't show those tree rings.

[Bow Tie 67]

But, how do you over-torque something like that? When I installed my Howe tall LBJ's at the beginning of summer, I cranked down on them with a 1/2" breaker bar until I got it to line up nice with a hole for the cotter pin. Is it possible I over-tightened mine? If I did, are they now screwed, or can I loosen it up slightly with no ill effects?

Yes it is possible you over-tightened them. As far them being compromised the only way to tell would to have them checked with some sort of non-destructive testing that can look at the internal metal structure. ( I'm not even sure if that's possible ) Maybe someone with more knowledge has info on this type of testing.

[protour_chevelle]

I'm thinking I was given the wrong torque specs on these... I am now on the hunt for a stronger ball joint. Ideas?

[BBShark]

That kind of failure can happen if the taper and the suface that the nut is bearing on are not perpendicular. It sets up a tremendous "prying" force on the stud.

Not saying that is waht happened here but it's worth checking.

[dipren443]

Yes it is possible you over-tightened them. As far them being compromised the only way to tell would to have them checked with some sort of non-destructive testing that can look at the internal metal structure. ( I'm not even sure if that's possible ) Maybe someone with more knowledge has info on this type of testing.

This is possible, but probably not worth it. You could look at the fracture surfaces under an SEM. Looking at the micro structure, you can generally tell the mode of failure. Could you relate that back to see if the failure was from over tightening? Maybe. But you could spend lots of cash for an intricate failure analysis.

[Bow Tie 67]

This is possible, but probably not worth it. You could look at the fracture surfaces under an SEM. Looking at the micro structure, you can generally tell the mode of failure. Could you relate that back to see if the failure was from over tightening? Maybe. But you could spend lots of cash for an intricate failure analysis.

I had a feeling it would not be cost effective, for peace of mind new ball joints would be the best bet.

[BonzoHansen]

I had torqued the failed part at the factory specs which turned out to bee too much for the Howes…Damn. I used factory settings on my howes on my 2nd gen. Nuts. I don’t remember the howe parts coming with specs, I will have to check my paperwork (I keep all that stuff).

[Marcus SC&C]

Ball joint breakage is almost always the result of one of three things. Either they`re not trightened correctly,they`re binding before the suspension reaches it`s full travel or they`re not properly seated in the tapers. Too tight and they can snap off just like that. I don`t know why people think nuts and bolts everywhere else should have torque specs but suspension parts the same size should be tightened with a 3ft. pipe until the the veins pop out of their foreheads. Too loose is bad too,it lets the stud move in the bore,wear the bore in the spindle and get loose. They they can fail from fatigue.
Binding is not an issue with near stock systems but it can be with tall spindles, tall ball joints, G Mod, Shelby Mod etc. Just check and make sure the ball joints can move through the suspension`s full range of travel without binding.
Taper issues include using the wrong ball joint in the wrong bore (check the taper on those spindles,most fabbed spindles use a 10* taper, stock A body are 7*). Some new repro spindles have been showing up with improperly reamed tapers,they`re often hourglass shaped or have raised ridges in them allowing the stud to wobble in the bore,again setting them up for a fatigue failure. Some dirt,rust or other crap in the tapers will do the same thing as will an OE spindle with egg shaped bores from being run too long with worn out ball joints. You won`t know if you don`t check. If the tapers are correct the studs can`t turn in the bore and the nuts cannot come loose. If the nuts come loose there`s more than likely a problem with the bore,either it`s worn,made wrong or dirty. I just checked a set of spindles for a client who said the nut wasn`t tight when he took the front end apart to do something else. The tapers were all crusted up with rust,dirt and crap. 30sec. with a piece of scotch brite pad cleaned it right up and the ball joints fit nice and tight.
The bottom line is that there are millions and millions of stock ball joints that have been running around for decades with no problems at all. Aftermarket ball joints like the Howes were designed to be even stronger for hardcore racing and have proven to outlast stock ones 5:1,this in cars that are frequently hitting the wall at around 100mph. They have evolved and gotten better over the years as is the nature of racing parts but still it`s the originals that set the new standards for durability. Howe is a major military supplier making HD ball joints for uparmored HummVees that were breaking stock ball joints with the extra weight of the armor. As tough as they are they still won`t tolerate incorrect fit or assembly for long.
If a stock type ball joint breaks something is wrong and it`s probably not with the ball joint itself if it`s a name brand piece. If a Howe or similar racing ball joint breaks something is really wrong and it would have happened much sooner with a stock one. As hot rodders it`s our job to make sure that all of the parts we install on our cars fit properly,work properly together and are installed correctly. Check those tapers,you want near full contact and NO wobble. Make sure they`re clean! Torque them properly, tighter is NOT better, correct is better. That done you should be good to go for 100,000 miles. Mark SC&C

[ho428]

Looking at the stance and lowering of your car is there a chance you had it so far out of centerline camber alignment that you exceeded the usable angle of the ball joint? They'll only move so far.
A little extra banging up and down and she'll get a crack and pop, that's one of the reasons why factories run suspension stops.

[protour_chevelle]

The car is quite low, but I cycled everything without springs/shock in last year and the year before with no binding issues what so ever.

Marcus, thanks for your reply. Once I get more cash flow I will be talking with you to order new ball joints(upper and lowers) along with 2 vari shock coilovers.

-Matt

[David Pozzi]

Mark pretty much said it all.
If I could add anything, from my reading of Carroll Smith's books on fasteners, - you can get into trouble more easily by under torquing a bolt or stud and having it wiggle, than torquing it to the high side of specifications. Over torque tends to fail the nut threads, rather than the bolt or stud. A bit of debris of dirt on the taper or a miss-shaped taper in the spindle could cause a poor installation and the stud work loose with time. The nut shows "beach marks", - evidence of the stud rocking back and forth in the spindle.

I am in no way in favor of over-torquing bolts! But many things can happen to cause a bolt/stud to be under torqued, dirt, or dry threads can lower the actual bolt stretch, lube on the threads can increase stretch.

I'm no engineer so read up on it yourself. David

[protour_chevelle]

Mark pretty much said it all.
Over torque tends to fail the nut threads, rather than the bolt or stud.

This contradicts your statement below to what happened does it not?:guilty:


The nut shows "beach marks", - evidence of the stud rocking back and forth in the spindle.

[Tig Man]

Here a few shots of my lower arm from a couple of years ago! They are a lot tougher than you think. Never saw them torqued in the race shop. That one must have been way over tightened.

Mark

[maldo]

:smoke: intresting subject..... keep us posted...

[David Pozzi]

This contradicts your statement below to what happened does it not?:guilty:

I think Mark covered all the bases in his post:

"Ball joint breakage is almost always the result of one of three things. Either they`re not trightened correctly,they`re binding before the suspension reaches it`s full travel or they`re not properly seated in the tapers. Too tight and they can snap off just like that. I don`t know why people think nuts and bolts everywhere else should have torque specs but suspension parts the same size should be tightened with a 3ft. pipe until the the veins pop out of their foreheads. Too loose is bad too,it lets the stud move in the bore,wear the bore in the spindle and get loose. They they can fail from fatigue. "

I don't believe the failure was caused by over torque of the nut, which was only one of Mark's many comments. I did see some beach marks on the broken stud, which in my opinion looks more like the stud wiggled in the taper. But I am not an engineer and don't have the parts in my hand so It's just my opinion from looking at a photo. I'd sure give the spindle tapers a good going over and insure any replacement balljoints fit them properly, also check that the nut does not bottom out on the last thread. Some balljoints come with washers to space the nut up higher.

The factory spec is to torque the nut, then tighten the nut more until the cotter key hole aligns with the castle nut, -as needed. This implies there is "room" for the nut to be tightened a bit more than factory torque specs, or the cotter key hole would often not be lined up. IF Carroll Smith is correct in his book, then an over torque condition would "usually" fail the nut threads first, not the stud, but again, I'm no fastener engineer, I'm just going by what I've read. A lot of this depends on the nut material, If I recall correctly he stated the nut is usually softer than the bolt or stud, - a harder nut with strength equal to the stud, may cause the stud threads to fail before the nut if over torqued. It should not cause the stud to break and snap off.

David

[fishtail8]

I saw you at the Street Legals a few weeks ago when it was rained out for the second week in a row. Did you get any passes in? As for the wheel, is it just scuffed, scraped, or is it a big dent? There's a shop in Edmonton called Wheelworks that fixed aluminum wheels. Give them a call, drop the rim off, and if they can fix it, it'll be good as new. Good luck getting it back together. Just because the horse kicked you off, doesn't mean you don't get back on it.

[protour_chevelle]

Small world. I never did get any passes in. I did get quite a few in on the street and the car held its own very well. I will have to drop it off for sure. Its scuffed, and some aluminum is missing. I'll let them make the call if it can be run safely or not, and if it can be repaired or not.

things happen for a reason. So I'll chalk it up to that.

[badazz81z28]

Interesting post, despite age.

I'm a little worried about this as well. Last night finishing up my spring spacer install, I came to the same issue. Hotchkis Arms do not give you a torque spec for the ball joints ("Fully tighten" is what they say). I used the stock spec out of the Haynes manual of 85ftlbs. Of course the cotter key hole doesnt line up after torquing. The driver side just just need a wee bit to line up, the pass side however was dead in the middle of the castle head which needed about 1/8" more to go to line up, It wasnt easy though...I ended up using a small breaker bar as I couldnt do it with the open end wrench. I too had a failure of the tie rod which stripped the stud with torque. What was the final outcome of this issue? Would over torquing the stud cause the failure of the OPs ball joint or other form of stress?? Now I'm scared of the BJ being over torqued :(

[MrQuick]

torquing not only tells you how tight something is it can also give you an indication if something has failed. Taper fits are always sketchy. If you have to go past the torque to reach another hole its fine. Just re check the torque. If the torque is now less than what you started, remove and inspect, then install and retest. Chances are it just "seated" or it just failed. It would take alot more than 85 f/p to break the stud. I remember a few going to 95-105

[Proforged]

I know you're running aftermarket spindles, but are you sure that's the correct ball joint? These cars use a Moog #K5103 from the factory. Later cars (73+) use a K6145T ball joint. The K6141 is used on a 71-76 full size car, among a few other applications.

I don't recall the taper on the K6141, but I do know that it has a larger diameter housing - so also be sure to check that your lower control arm was designed to take this large of a ball joint.

[looter]

Protour Chevelle/Matt
Your inbox is full

[killer69]

I know you're running aftermarket spindles, but are you sure that's the correct ball joint? These cars use a Moog #K5103 from the factory. Later cars (73+) use a K6145T ball joint. The K6141 is used on a 71-76 full size car, among a few other applications.

I don't recall the taper on the K6141, but I do know that it has a larger diameter housing - so also be sure to check that your lower control arm was designed to take this large of a ball joint.

The 5103 has a 1.5" per foot taper for the 67-69 F & X body as wellas 64-72 A body the 6145 ball joint has a 2" per foot taper for the 70-81 camaro and various other applications.
i would bet that the taper is incorrect for the spindle, it appears likr the ball joint taper was not seated fully in the spindle. that is what i can see from the pictures.

[badazz81z28]

Am I the only one here that gets this paranoid?!?!?! Well its been bugging me for a couple days. Remember that I had to tighten the nut a little to line up the cotter hole? Well I went a wee bit too far and backed it off a wee bit to line up the hole. Well that had me feeling uneasy...So...tonight I loosened the nut and re-torqued, well guess it...Doesnt line up!! It ends up where I went past the hole before. Well to line it up I torqued it to 85 then 90 than 95 then 100! then 105 and the hole lined up without reaching 105ftlbs. Someone please give me some relief that I'm worring over nothing with it that tight. I suspect as I tightened I just press fitted the stud more. As I feel if I break the torque and re-torque at 85ftlbs it will end up exactly where its at now....


As for the OP, I also was thinking about it. I would assume if it was over torqued, it would have sheared at that point in time or ripped the threads. I think it was not not in the tapered hole fully and while turning, the force was on the stud and not turning with the U-joint body.