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FirstGenZq8
09-15-2008, 06:28 PM
hello everyone

great forum. followed a couple of s-series folks over here that are of like mind.

application:
1992 s10 regular cab short bed
5.7L LT1/T56
pro touring performance teetering on street fighter look

iím currently building a bed cover w/ aluminum sheet similar to this: http://www.tyguy.net/gallery2/d/3929-2/Bild+026.jpg

while iím fartiní around w/ that i figured iíd try my hand at building a wing for track days.

rear spoiler - used on a car is to 'spoil' unfavorable air movement across a body of a vehicle in motion. i do NOT want to build a spoiler.

rear wing - used to generate downforce as air passes around it, helping the drive wheels to maintain traction at high speeds. DING i want this!

my questions:

in order for me to reap any benefits of a rear spoiler, would I need to have a front wing installed as well for balanced grip?

what are these brackets called and where can I get them?

http://www.lateral-g.org/events/sema2007/DSC01789.JPG (http://www.lateral-g.org/events/sema2007/DSC01789.JPG)

do the principles represented below apply the same to a truck as they do a car?

http://images.circletrack.com/techarticles/139_0304_aero_11_z.jpg (http://images.circletrack.com/techarticles/139_0304_aero_11_z.jpg)

http://images.circletrack.com/techarticles/139_0304_aero_12_z.jpg (http://images.circletrack.com/techarticles/139_0304_aero_12_z.jpg)

some pretty general questions, i know, but iím pretty much at the conceptual phase right now and just need some ideas. thank you all for your help!

FirstGenZq8
09-16-2008, 08:05 PM
apparently they're called "adjustable spoiler supports". http://www.racecity.biz/prod1.html

anybody know where else to buy these? i want to see all of the different styles out there.

Turbo67camaro
09-16-2008, 08:50 PM
I wonder if an upside down aircraft wing shape would create a better ratio between drag and downward force ? i.e. less drag with more downward force.

The forces apply the same between a car and a truck. One concern would be the location/placement of the wing. The truck cab might create some areas behind it with less air flow than a more sleek car. Placing a wing in an area with minimal air flow creates less downward force.

Twentyover
09-16-2008, 09:39 PM
apparently they're called "adjustable spoiler supports". http://www.racecity.biz/prod1.html

anybody know where else to buy these? i want to see all of the different styles out there.

Is it merely coincidence that the Viagra car was shown with devices to make your spoiler stand up?

SaturnVUEguy
09-17-2008, 09:19 AM
Is it merely coincidence that the Viagra car was shown with devices to make your spoiler stand up?:lmao:

Lowend
09-19-2008, 05:48 PM
So you wanna see something REALLY cool?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZIn-VXB2DY&feature=related
http://aeromotions.com/

Vic is a long-time racing buddy and believe me, he is always on the cutting edge.

Twentyover
09-20-2008, 03:37 AM
Aren't movable (as opposed to adjustable) aero devices banned by most sanctioning bodies after Mercedes used them in the '50's?

Lowend
09-20-2008, 08:07 AM
Believe me in the SCCA - if people could protest Vic they would... I can't speak for other series

69stang
09-23-2008, 08:35 AM
I don't see a problem putting a wing at the back of the bed, it should be far enough behind the turbulent air around the rear of the cab and that cover will help smooth out the airflow.

Up front you'll want to minimize airflow going under the nose with an airdam or front spoiler. That will help keep the nose down and stabilize it.

buickfunnycar.com
09-23-2008, 12:00 PM
So you wanna see something REALLY cool?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZIn-VXB2DY&feature=related
http://aeromotions.com/

Vic is a long-time racing buddy and believe me, he is always on the cutting edge.

I believe I've seen that car run Marina Brett...who's he think he is,Jim Hall?:naughty:

maldo
09-23-2008, 01:10 PM
:firefire:

Lowend
09-23-2008, 02:45 PM
Vic is a Bay Area guy... he is at Marina pretty much constantly, and that car is a complete Monster
http://www.siastuning.com/
It was slower - but I liked his old 240Z better
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
You can't really see the flares in this pic -

jaybee
09-24-2008, 11:03 AM
I'm skeptical about the Aeromotions wing. Not saying it can't work, but some cool autocross video on an already fast car isn't necessarily proof. My issues are; 1) Without a center plate shouldn't downforce on the high side of the wing be seriously limited by air spilling from one wing segment to the other? 2) Backing that up, the hinges, actuator links, and even the bit holding the two wing halves together just don't look beefy enough to carry a lot of downforce. 3) Is autocross really the place to test and demonstrate the benefits of sohisticated, active aerodynamics?

David Pozzi
09-24-2008, 07:43 PM
1. a good idea.
2. I don't think there is much downforce at autocross speeds.
3. The car owner has a fuel injection tuning/sales business, he's the type of guy who would enjoy toying around with this sort of thing. Moveable wings are illegal most places except some circle tracks, and I guess it's legal for Autocross. Just wait til SCCA eliminates THIS loophole!
David

Norm Peterson
09-25-2008, 06:24 AM
I'm pretty sure that any center dividers would have been interpreted as a case of too many endplates. Two @ 200 sq in each is the limit.


Norm

HectorM52
10-31-2008, 05:48 PM
Joe did you ever figure anything out?

FirstGenZq8
10-31-2008, 07:29 PM
mmm, not really adam. i'm still in the "theory" stage methinks. i did find the cheapest places for the adjustable spoiler supports:

http://store.cdoc.com/detail.asp?id=14665&str=2000-0284&name=Shift+Knobs

http://www.irvansmith.com/scart/longacre-racing-products-spoiler-body-supports-c-163_179.html

i'm probably just going to use some stainless steel piano hinges and a very simple 18 gauge or so rectangle wing for the rear. unless a new reader of this thread has any better ideas???

Tom Welch
11-12-2008, 08:27 PM
Has anyone discussing this issue considered the use of vortex generators, (I found these in the Aircraft Spruce Catalog) I dont see why they wouldnt work. They might not look too cool though. Any thoughts on this?

trackrat79
11-12-2008, 08:45 PM
I thought u did not want a nascar type blade (spoiler) on the back of the truck.

I was under the impresion that u wanted a true wing as your downforce generator.

If a more wing style device is what u are after then, i would start with two endplates or uprights and a flat blade wing on a leading edge or central pivot with some sort of selectable rear mounting point as your adjustment. As i say this is just an idea for a starting point. i know a flat blade wing is not a hole lot better than a blade ypte spoilerother than the fact that it is up in the air flow more instead of mounted to the rear deck of the truck.

I too have toyed with the idea of a rear wing for my truck but since i have decided to build a more nascar theamed truck I will stay with a blade type spoiler for my current project. I am also still debating on wether to go with the more traditional nascar fron airdam type front end or the new COT type fron splitter. BUt i have ideas and designs for both.

http://http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.aquacraftmodels.com/boats/aqub32-wing-lg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.aquacraftmodels.com/boats/aqub32-features.html&usg=__WlH93ov9Ev9zWZ8v2XSntuf8p50=&h=390&w=600&sz=17&hl=en&start=113&tbnid=az0Oy0QiLdMNBM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddownforce%2Bwing%26start%3D100%26gbv% 3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

this is a crude version of what i am talking about but it should get my idea across as a starting point.

this is a ruff rendering done by my self of what i am working towards

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

FirstGenZq8
03-29-2009, 08:56 PM
i've found some images online that made me want to bring this thread back TTT.

the below image suggests that a nascar styled wing wouldn't give much downforce, correct?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/rpm_g_johnson_580-1.jpg

the red areas in the below pic illustrate high turbulence areas, correct? so a "high rise" wing would supply more downforce than a nascar wing. right or wrong?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

The Stickman
03-29-2009, 10:08 PM
Actually GM found out that air tends to come out from under the truck, swirls up pver the bed and hit the back of the car. Take a look at there GMC LSR truck and any info you can find on it. They figured out that a 2/3rds length tonneu with the front of the bed open was the best. When I raced my S-10 I made a very cheap and light one with thin aluminum angle for the sides and a few cross supports and then skinned it with very thin sheet aluminum and used pop rivets to hold it together. Worked well enough. Never needed any downforce.

chicane67
03-29-2009, 10:26 PM
High "turbulence" no... high "pressure" yes.

If the smooth flow of air is interrupted over a wing section, "turbulence" is created which results in a loss of lift, or in your case downforce... and induces a high degree of drag. An airfoil designed for minimum drag and uninterrupted flow of the boundary layer is.

The idea of a "wing" is to add downforce without inducing drag.

This is a basic program that will lend you some insight:
http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/products/products01/ltp_html/individual_pages/foilsim.html

And then... this is a little more indepth. You just need to think of this upside down:
http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/aerosim/applet/vj402.html

HectorM52
03-31-2009, 05:58 AM
This might be a good photo to show that our trucks ARE getting some good downforce in the mid-bed area.

So let's get this wing / spoiler worked out!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/0811gmhtp_16_z_2008_year_one_experience_-1.jpg

The Stickman
03-31-2009, 09:38 AM
This might be a good photo to show that our trucks ARE getting some good downforce in the mid-bed area.

So let's get this wing / spoiler worked out!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/03/0811gmhtp_16_z_2008_year_one_experience_-1.jpg

Or it could be like I said where GM found out the air swirled up and into the bed from under the truck?

HectorM52
03-31-2009, 10:32 AM
Or it could be like I said where GM found out the air swirled up and into the bed from under the truck?
Yeah...

Never before have I wished for smoke, but it would have been cool to see it curling up from under there like the wind tunnel tests! :D

The Stickman
03-31-2009, 11:57 AM
Yeah...

Never before have I wished for smoke, but it would have been cool to see it curling up from under there like the wind tunnel tests! :D


I know some guys that did it using string on a Fiero and they found that the air would come backwards under the wing then into the into the swirl coming off the roof. Now all I know is what I read so I might not have all the story. But I do know I didn't need a wing when I ran on road courses. And I was running the long starights at Pocono to over 110mph. How much over I don't know as I was going by what the guy in the M3 I was following told me. My speedo went to only 85mph. But I also ran at Watkins Glen with it and again had no problems with rear grip.

AJSZR2326
04-22-2009, 07:58 AM
downforce will start to apply at approx 75mph and above but unless the whole bottom of your truck or car is sealed off , a wing(spoiler) isnt going to do anything. my experience comes from a 02 lingenfelter z06, then applied greenwood complete kit front to back. and yes nobody liked the huge wing in the back but it is functional.

trackrat79
05-25-2009, 07:15 PM
This is my home made bed cover. noticeably more stable at speed.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (%3Ca%20href=)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (%3Ca%20href=)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (%3Ca%20href=)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (%3Ca%20href=)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (%3Ca%20href=)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (%3Ca%20href=)
eventually i want to do a full chassis with a complete under body or belly pan. and i want to blend the bed into the back of the cab and get ride of the gap between the bed and cab to create a more smooth flowing body.

Norm Peterson
05-26-2009, 02:41 AM
You'll need to add a lot of structural rigidity in the region where the cab ends and the bed begins (with something at least as high up as bed top height meeting cab region structure at the same height). Stock, that gap can close up a LOT as you drive. Anybody old enough to remember being able to ride in the bed without getting hassled for doing so knew enough to keep their fingers out of that gap, either from being told just once or from painful experience. That much movement will tend to buckle any sheetmetal that's trying to resist it unless it is very carefully designed/sturdily fabricated.


Norm

trackrat79
05-26-2009, 06:21 AM
O I know. i was one of those kids that got his fingers pinched. (Once, and i repeat once.) I stayed towards the back from then on. Not that chancing having the tailgate open up and falling out the back was better but hey.

Anyway, the truck is getting a full tube chassis, cage with full length down bars from the main hoop of the driver cage down threw the upper cab into the bed to were the chassis goes up and over the axle. So im not to worried about flex. At one point i was thinking about trying to find a blazer body and graft the back wall and roof of a pickup cab to it.