Should I get the ABS too from an LS1?

[UNmolestedTA]

Just curious, I am about to remove the front and rear discs from an LS1 firebird to use on my 67. Should I get the ABS controller as well?

[CarlC]

No. There are a plethora of difficulties associated with adapting the ABS system to other cars.

[EFI69Cam]

No. There are a plethora of difficulties associated with adapting the ABS system to other cars.

Care to elaborate?

People said the same thing about EFI 20 years ago.

[chicane67]

Well, the biggest issue is writing your own algorithms... and that only does good if you can even interface with the EBCM.

Good luck with that...

[EFI69Cam]

Well, the biggest issue is writing your own algorithms... and that only does good if you can even interface with the ECBM.

Good luck with that...

Oh you mean like how you have to write your own "algorithms" for an ECM when you swap engines?

The "algorithms" are written, what may need to be tweaked is the calibration tables.

[junkman]

I don't really know about how you would go about mounting up all the reluctors on each axle, and I don't really understand why you would want to. It would be different though. Most people take it off, never really heard of anyone wanting to add it.

[chicane67]

Oh you mean like how you have to write your own "algorithms" for an ECM when you swap engines?

The "algorithms" are written, what may need to be tweaked is the calibration tables.

Well... I guess if it were as "easy" as late model EFI... it would have been done by now. But the fact of the matter is... that it has NOT (at least on a large scale). And unless you are familiar with how the algorithm is written... and especially if the calibration table is outside of the variable that you need to address... I guess it will be close enough right ?? Uhm... yeah. So if the calibration window is too small, how is it again that you are going to get it to work ?? Oh... that's right. You either hope that the range is available and re-write the calibration table or re-write the algorithm to support the additional range if its not.




I don't really know about how you would go about mounting up all the reluctors on each axle, and I don't really understand why you would want to. It would be different though. Most people take it off, never really heard of anyone wanting to add it.

The addition of wheel speed sensor's has been answered... ATS and a few others thankfully, already have answers for that issue. The addition of late model ABS in any early chassis can and does have its benifits for some... and for others... it doenst do anything at all. It can bring an element of safety that was never part of what was originally offered.

[EFI69Cam]

Well... I guess if it were as "easy" as late model EFI... it would have been done by now. But the fact of the matter is... that it has NOT (at least on a large scale). And unless you are familiar with how the algorithm is written... and especially if the calibration table is outside of the variable that you need to address... I guess it will be close enough right ?? Uhm... yeah. So if the calibration window is too small, how is it again that you are going to get it to work ?? Oh... that's right. You either hope that the range is available and re-write the calibration table or re-write the algorithm to support the additional range if its not.


Your points are valid IF you are adaping a system from a chassis that is radically different from the receipient chassis.

A first gen is really not all that different than a 4th. There are changes made to tire sizes and braking capability on 4th gens all the time with no ill effects on the ABS.

You make it sound like the car will explode the first time you hit the brakes.

[gearheads78]

Only reason to get it if its know good is to sell it. The pieces of crap go out all the time in 4th gen cars and are very expensive to replace.

Adding fuel injection adds a real benefit but can't see any reason to add ABS other than to make a good braking system work worse. ABS is for average joe that just want to hit the brakes as hard as they can. If you can drive you will stop better than ABS ever could.

[rohrt]

Don't the ATS spindles have some provision for ABS? I thought I read somthing on that when they first came out.

I had wondered the same thing about hooking up a ABS system to just the front for emergency breaking.

[amx2334]

This guy made it work. works so well he won. compare the braking performances.
http://www.carcraft.com/eventcoverage/116_0602_1969_real_street_eliminator_amc_amx/index.html

[DarkoNova]

I've been thinking of doing it ever since I saw that the ATS spindles had the provisions for it. I'm probably going to find a way to encorporate it (and possibly traction control), even if it ends up costing a lot of money. I just basically want my car to have everything the new cars do.

Matt

[Rhino]

Only reason to get it if its know good is to sell it. The pieces of crap go out all the time in 4th gen cars and are very expensive to replace.

Adding fuel injection adds a real benefit but can't see any reason to add ABS other than to make a good braking system work worse. ABS is for average joe that just want to hit the brakes as hard as they can. If you can drive you will stop better than ABS ever could.

I'm sorry, but that's just outright false and misleading. It's been proven 100's if not 1000's of times that ABS will far outperform a human under most scenarios.
Let me know when you can individually modulate one wheel that's slipping.

[chicane67]

Your points are valid IF you are adaping a system from a chassis that is radically different from the receipient chassis.

A first gen is really not all that different than a 4th. There are changes made to tire sizes and braking capability on 4th gens all the time with no ill effects on the ABS.

You make it sound like the car will explode the first time you hit the brakes.

No... you make it sound like the car will explode by your own comments. I never made any point to that exaggeration.

All I was trying to convey is that until it is a proven and working system in the recipient chassis... there is a list of unknown factors that scream "safety issue"... and using it on public roads is a gross liability and a danger to all encompassing.


Don't the ATS spindles have some provision for ABS? I thought I read somthing on that when they first came out.

I had wondered the same thing about hooking up a ABS system to just the front for emergency breaking.

The AFX spindle's utilize the wheel bearing cartridges from the C5/C6 Y-Body... that do incorporate wheel speed sensors.

There would be no useful gain to using ABS on just the front end... and it would also be dangerous to do so. Yes... the idea of helping the front end would make sense, but... that wouldnt help the rear end passing you by in a slide from it not being controlled. You either do independant channel front wheel's with a single channel rear... or... you do four wheel independant channels. You could also do just the rear as a single or independant channels... but those systems are beyond out dated and there isnt must support for them.

As I stated earlier in this thread... there have been a few cats here stateside and a couple overseas that have gotten the later model Bosch 8.x units to work very well. I dont mean to make it sound like its impossible do make this system work... because its not impossible and its actually somewhat easy if you understand the dynamics of the individual components and making them work in/on a platform that wasnt designed to in the first place. From my experience, the Y-Body system is far easier to work with than the F-Body system... which can include the stability and traction control systems of the donor Y-Body chassis.

The front end of the system is a piece of cake... thanks to the AFX spindle. The rear however at this point is where you need to do your homework. I know of two different ways that the rear end can be handled for specific systems. One solution is on the OneLapCamaro and the other is just about out of the bag. If you have or are wanting to build a component matching system that will work seemlessly with the AFX spindle... keep your eyes open in the next couple of months. I forsee a solution that will make this all somewhat easier than the currnet market has to offer.

[EFI69Cam]

All I was trying to convey is that until it is a proven and working system in the recipient chassis... there is a list of unknown factors that scream "safety issue"... and using it on public roads is a gross liability and a danger to all encompassing.


The unknown factors are the reason why I backed off retrofitting the 4th gen system. I don't want to endanger anyone.

I'll keep my eyes out for what you guys come up with. I have a DSE subframe now, but it has the C5/C6 bearing packs also.

[bobhamilton15090]

I'm sorry, but that's just outright false and misleading. It's been proven 100's if not 1000's of times that ABS will far outperform a human under most scenarios.
Let me know when you can individually modulate one wheel that's slipping.

ABS is designed to allow steering in a panic braking situation. Under ANY condition ABS will actually lengthen the stopping distance but gives you control over the steering by not allowing the brakes to lock up the wheels. This is well documented in many service instruction manuals and most techs will tell you the same thing. They help ok drivers drive better in bad situations and do nothing to help a properly set up car with an experienced driver behind the wheel.

[gearheads78]

ABS is designed to allow steering in a panic braking situation. Under ANY condition ABS will actually lengthen the stopping distance but gives you control over the steering by not allowing the brakes to lock up the wheels. This is well documented in many service instruction manuals and most techs will tell you the same thing. They help ok drivers drive better in bad situations and do nothing to help a properly set up car with an experienced driver behind the wheel.

Thats basicly what I ment you just said it much better. Thanks

[Rhino]

They help ok drivers drive better in bad situations and do nothing to help a properly set up car with an experienced driver behind the wheel.

Under good conditions you're absolutely correct.
The issue isn't quite so cut and dry when you're dealing with the unknown of driver experience with a particular car. ABS is a decent stand in for experience in adverse conditions. If conditions vary from wheel to wheel and moment to moment (such as patchy ice, oil spots, etc...) ABS can have a significant benefit of a more controlled stop.
My original post was a little less descriptive than it should have been, but my statement does still hold true. I find it very misleading to use a blanket statement that ABS holds no benefit.

Due to the fact that most of our cars are simply fair weather or track toys the vast majority of us won't reap these benefits. With that said I would contemplate ABS if it were a car that gets driven a significant amount of time on the streets.

[DarkoNova]

No... you make it sound like the car will explode by your own comments. I never made any point to that exaggeration.

All I was trying to convey is that until it is a proven and working system in the recipient chassis... there is a list of unknown factors that scream "safety issue"... and using it on public roads is a gross liability and a danger to all encompassing.



The AFX spindle's utilize the wheel bearing cartridges from the C5/C6 Y-Body... that do incorporate wheel speed sensors.

There would be no useful gain to using ABS on just the front end... and it would also be dangerous to do so. Yes... the idea of helping the front end would make sense, but... that wouldnt help the rear end passing you by in a slide from it not being controlled. You either do independant channel front wheel's with a single channel rear... or... you do four wheel independant channels. You could also do just the rear as a single or independant channels... but those systems are beyond out dated and there isnt must support for them.

As I stated earlier in this thread... there have been a few cats here stateside and a couple overseas that have gotten the later model Bosch 8.x units to work very well. I dont mean to make it sound like its impossible do make this system work... because its not impossible and its actually somewhat easy if you understand the dynamics of the individual components and making them work in/on a platform that wasnt designed to in the first place. From my experience, the Y-Body system is far easier to work with than the F-Body system... which can include the stability and traction control systems of the donor Y-Body chassis.

The front end of the system is a piece of cake... thanks to the AFX spindle. The rear however at this point is where you need to do your homework. I know of two different ways that the rear end can be handled for specific systems. One solution is on the OneLapCamaro and the other is just about out of the bag. If you have or are wanting to build a component matching system that will work seemlessly with the AFX spindle... keep your eyes open in the next couple of months. I forsee a solution that will make this all somewhat easier than the currnet market has to offer.

Pardon my ignorance, but do you work for or own a company? Are you developing something right now? If so, I'm definitely, DEFINITELY interested.

Matt

[amx2334]

This is well documented in many service instruction manuals and most techs will tell you the same thing.
I've never seen this as a tech. Of course as a tech I never went out and did any testing of braking distances and performance.I don't know of any techs that do. Do you have any links to this data?

[Rick Dorion]

When I took a Skip Barber course we did thresh hold braking in Neons with the ABS able to be turned off. With practice the stopping distance was less without ABS but it was an acquired skill that would need regular practice. I like a sophisticated ( as oppoesed to my 97 GMC truck) ABS.

[silver69camaro]

There is so much misinformation in this thread, it's rediculous. It makes my head hurt just reading it. As usual, Chicane67 has a pretty good idea about what's involved with retrofitting ABS.

To the people who think they can drive faster without ABS: I want proof. Show me you can do it. And I want significant results. Not two tendths faster in one trial out of twenty. I want significant, consistant results. And notice I said "drive" faster. It's not just about stopping 60-0 in XX feet, it's about reducing lap times by averaging a higher speed.

In racing situations, ABS allows you to go deeper into the braking zone and not have to worry about locking the fronts. Ever entered a turn going too fast with the fronts locked? It sucks, trust me. ABS allows much more control and prevents you from looking like an idiot.

The fact is, ABS is modulating lockup with precision and speed that humans just can't do. I don't care who you are, and I don't know of any driver that requires lockup to turn faster lap times. Ever been in an ABS car with fat R-compound tires? It rules, end of story.

[DarkoNova]

There is so much misinformation in this thread, it's rediculous. It makes my head hurt just reading it. As usual, Chicane67 has a pretty good idea about what's involved with retrofitting ABS.

To the people who think they can drive faster without ABS: I want proof. Show me you can do it. And I want significant results. Not two tendths faster in one trial out of twenty. I want significant, consistant results. And notice I said "drive" faster. It's not just about stopping 60-0 in XX feet, it's about reducing lap times by averaging a higher speed.

In racing situations, ABS allows you to go deeper into the braking zone and not have to worry about locking the fronts. Ever entered a turn going too fast with the fronts locked? It sucks, trust me. ABS allows much more control and prevents you from looking like an idiot.

The fact is, ABS is modulating lockup with precision and speed that humans just can't do. I don't care who you are, and I don't know of any driver that requires lockup to turn faster lap times. Ever been in an ABS car with fat R-compound tires? It rules, end of story.

Which is why I'm extremely interested in retrofitting it. I'm wondering if Chicane is possibly making a system, but he hasn't responded in a few days. :attn:

Matt

[chicane67]

Sorry Matt... I'm normally "out of pocket" all week long and don't get a chance to get on here.

Do I work for a company ? Unofficially. Sort of. Do I own a company ? Well... I wouldn't call it a "company" per-say... but I do consult inside the industry. Am I constructing something along the lines discussed ? Yes.




The unknown factors are the reason why I backed off retrofitting the 4th gen system. I don't want to endanger anyone.

I'll keep my eyes out for what you guys come up with. I have a DSE subframe now, but it has the C5/C6 bearing packs also.

Yeah... I hear you on that. I didn't want to come out as sounding / being completely pessimistic... just wanting to convey that there are programming change requirements that must be made (to at least any unit being used in a first gen f-body)... thus far. With the 'unknown's experienced being in the arena of safety... it's hard for it not to be on the forefront of thought.

I'm pretty sure that here in the next couple of months... that there just might (and I stress might) be 'something' in one of our favorite magazines on this very subject. I just have'nt the slightest idea on how soon that could be.

Honestly, there is a huge liability involved with this subject. I mean, I can tell you a list of parts of what you will need and I can also tell you that it's only about $1650 from your local GM parts counter, for the whole kit-and-caboodle (+ AFX spindles and the rear end modifications for the rear sensors)... but, in my own interest's... any information other than that would require a signed and notarized "release of liability." Although... if I were to merely post (with gratuitous disclaimer) the list of parts and let you do with that information as you wish... I don't think I would have an issue with that. But even then... you still need the tweaks to the EBCM... which is nearly impossible... unless... ?

The parts list... in my opinion, just isn't ready for that yet.

I am really... really, hopeful... that there is something that can be released to the masses here in the very near future. For those who don't know... the new Bosch 8.x system is unreal. In addition to cutting edge ABS function, there is an ability for traction control and stability control as well. Now... I myself am just looking for the ABS function and possibly the traction control... but it's not just that, it is the way the new Bosch system does what it does. It's way beyond just simple on/off pulse width braking. If you incorporate the steering angle sensor and the yaw rate sensor... you can get the full benefits of what the 8.x system is capable of. The ability to brake on a split coefficient and the way it can change proportioning during braking action... is something that no human or other viable system can perform. Lets face it... it's easy to brake in a straight line... it's called "thresh hold braking"... and with that a trained monkey behind the wheel can out brake even modern ABS systems. But... add even the slightest amount of yaw or a few drops of rain... and its a completely different story. With the 8.x... even in the rain... there will be no induced yaw under-steer.

Hell... just the idea of NOT flat spotting a tire when going in hot... is worth its consideration alone. Not to mention the ability to actually drive in wet conditions with lots of horse power and maintain stability... is worth it.

There are a couple cats working on possible solutions... and some of those names are very well known (understated) in this industry. Do I think that any of these systems will be offered to the general public ? No... unfortunately not. But... this is what hot rodding is all about... and we wouldn't be where we are today without some of those pushing the envelope of doing what said that could not be done.

[DarkoNova]

Do I think that any of these systems will be offered to the general public ? No... unfortunately not.

Well that sucks. :throw:

I'm definitely interested in what may be coming in the next few months, hopefully something to help make changes to the ECM so we can integrate it easier and more accurately.

Matt

[MonzaRacer]

Well as for me i thought it through and after changing a customers ABS controller and pump off a silverado truck we incorporated it into a friends 68 Camaro, and he used a cut down 10 bolt from a similar truck, kept tire heights very close(still talking to Kelsey-Hayes about unlocking the ratio adapter to make controller read different size tires after a "test" or "calibration " session.
The hex system used in most controllers are very simly as long as your not looking for yaw control or anything simply a system that keeps the wheels from locking under adverse conditions.
I am still looking into a converter but to maintain the conversion algoritum requires a little more numbers crunching .
It does work as a 3 sensor system, havent looked into the 4 sensor system and he is using ATS spindles awith Corvette wheel bearings.
Its a test bed as it also has my Flex FI conversion too. For best results either drive that everyday or by a lot of stainless for your fuel system, oh and the racepumps mechanical pump is running an electronic FI system so far with no hiccupps. But the racepump has only been on few weeks as his electric stuff spit up parts.
I didnt know he had the pump on it but when he shuts down it has an accumulator on the fuel system to start (his first addition ). an old accusump so far has worked fine, not sure whats going to happen with the regualr gas this winter.

[jaybee]

This may be a little O/T but with the talk of threshold braking and such I hope not. What's the best way to brake with ABS? My intuition tells me to hold at the point where the unit is just starting to pulse a little because it feels like it "hits" harder when you really nail the brakes and that should extend the stopping distance. True? False? No difference?

[derekf]

Tom/Monza/anyone eles that would know, what would one see if they were to retrofit the ABS setup from an LS1 into - say, a first gen - complete from sensors, same calipers/brakes/wheels/tires, all the way through to the MC?

My guess would be that they'd be just fine in straight-line dry braking, but any sort of off-angle braking would be suboptimal?

[silver69camaro]

What's the best way to brake with ABS?

Just hit the pedal, that's all there is to it.

For example:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Turn 2 at Pacific Raceways his a high-speed turn. The gas is to the floor just past the apex in turn 9 and held there until turn 2. My stock 330i reaches over 120mph as I enter turn 2's braking zone. Now here's what I do with each car:
BMW: At the second "brake zone" cone, I nail the brakes as hard as I can until the car deaccels to a good corner entery speed and I know I can nail the apex. As I start to turn the wheel, the ABS is still engaged for just a half second. So I'm turning and braking at the same time.

Camaro: At the FIRST cone, I squeeze hard on the brake until I feel/hear lockup, back off until I feel chatter (this is threshhold braking). I have to make sure all my braking is done before I hit corner entry or else I wont hit the beloved apex cone. If I'm locked and I start turning, I'll slide off course.

Granted the Camaro has way more speed coming into the braking zone due to an extra 150hp and 300lbs less weight than the BMW, but it also has more brake capacity and more rubber. But because it takes extra work for my brain to get the car down to a reasonable entry speed, I have to brake earlier. With practice (and if I took out the street pads) I could brake at the second cone like the BMW. Or, if I had ABS, I could just nail the brakes. That would rule.

[jaybee]

Thanks. That shows why intuition isn't always everything it's cracked up to be.

[derekf]

Tom/Monza/anyone else that would know, what would one see if they were to retrofit the ABS setup from an LS1 into - say, a first gen - complete from sensors, same calipers/brakes/wheels/tires, all the way through to the MC?

My guess would be that they'd be just fine in straight-line dry braking, but any sort of off-angle braking would be suboptimal?I had forgotten I'd asked this. Anyone care to hazard a guess as to the answer?

[novaderrik]

at the Car Craft show this summer, i was looking at PHR's "Project X" and noticed that it was running an abs system in it, which was probably installed by the GM guys that did the car up in this iteration.
does anyone know what setup they used and how well it worked on that car?
i do know that when i was parting out my 94 Caprice a few years back, i was tempted to pull the spindles, rear axle, and all the ABS stuff to try to retrofit it into either my 74 Monte Carlo or another older Caprice. the whole system is self contained, so it didn't look like too bad of a job.
but i decided against it and just let all that stuff go with the car.

[Stielow]

I've looked into this and if you have the money and want to add ABS to a non-ABS vehicle I would look at this system.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/downloads/Documentation/ABS_M4_Brochure_en.pdf (http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/downloads/Documentation/ABS_M4_Brochure_en.pdf)

It allows you to access the calibration so you can tune it. Without that ability you are just guessing.

If you can crack the calibration many of the OEM system are very good. But there is no software that I know of available to do it outside the OEMs. or Tier One suppliers.

To answer the question of is ABS faster than non-ABS. The new modern ABS systems are faster than non-ABS. Hands down....IMO.

We never turn it off during track development and it is tricky when it fails in a hard braking zone.

I really like ABS and I'm working on adding it to my new project.

Mark

[DarkoNova]

I've looked into this and if you have the money and want to add ABS to a non-ABS vehicle I would look at this system.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/downloads/Documentation/ABS_M4_Brochure_en.pdf (http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/downloads/Documentation/ABS_M4_Brochure_en.pdf)

It allows you to access the calibration so you can tune it. Without that ability you are just guessing.

If you can crack the calibration many of the OEM system are very good. But there is no software that I know of available to do it outside the OEMs. or Tier One suppliers.

To answer the question of is ABS faster than non-ABS. The new modern ABS systems are faster than non-ABS. Hands down....IMO.

We never turn it off during track development and it is tricky when it fails in a hard braking zone.

I really like ABS and I'm working on adding it to my new project.

Mark


Awesome. If this can do traction control, too, I'm getting this for sure.

Matt

[silver69camaro]

Awesome. If this can do traction control, too, I'm getting this for sure.

Matt

Be aware it's about $6K US. Also be aware, as I learned from a senior Bosch engineer, improper calibration can put the EBCM into "ice mode" where it shuts off most fluid flow to all brake corners. It's rare, but it's happened.

I've done tons of research on adding ABS to our cars. My setup is almost complete and I should have it running in a month or so. It's alot of wiring, calculations, and brake plumbing. But if it works, it's going to be a wonderful thing. If it doesn't, I can find out why.

My EBCM and pump is off of a C5 Z06, and all the connectors can be found at GM dealers and Mouser Electronics. Electrical diagrams are everywhere. I also installed a steering sensor, yaw and lateral accelerometer for the stability control. I am about 95% sure the ABS will be functional, and I have about 50% confidence in the stability control functioning. If it doesn't, I can use the sensors for data aquisition.

It's been a tough couple of months getting this done (especially with no real guarantee it will work), but I think the results will be worth it.

[Rick Dorion]

Cool, Matt.

Are you prototyping a system that will become available or doing a one off?

[silver69camaro]

Cool, Matt.

Are you prototyping a system that will become available or doing a one off?

As much as I'd love to offer a kit, I can't see it working that way. The liability could be a nightmare, and it's very vehicle specific (to some degree). The Z06 just happened to work for our Camaro because our front clip saves so much weight off the front end, the COG location and other important features are very similar to a C5 Corvette.

But who knows. I do think we'll see alot more hot rods with ABS in the future.

[DarkoNova]

Be aware it's about $6K US. Also be aware, as I learned from a senior Bosch engineer, improper calibration can put the EBCM into "ice mode" where it shuts off most fluid flow to all brake corners. It's rare, but it's happened.

I've done tons of research on adding ABS to our cars. My setup is almost complete and I should have it running in a month or so. It's alot of wiring, calculations, and brake plumbing. But if it works, it's going to be a wonderful thing. If it doesn't, I can find out why.

My EBCM and pump is off of a C5 Z06, and all the connectors can be found at GM dealers and Mouser Electronics. Electrical diagrams are everywhere. I also installed a steering sensor, yaw and lateral accelerometer for the stability control. I am about 95% sure the ABS will be functional, and I have about 50% confidence in the stability control functioning. If it doesn't, I can use the sensors for data aquisition.

It's been a tough couple of months getting this done (especially with no real guarantee it will work), but I think the results will be worth it.

The price doesn't bother me. I've got my mind set on having ABS and traction control in the Nova, so I'll do what I have to for a 100% functional, safe system. I may actually contact you because I plan on using an AME front clip as well.

Matt

[hectore3]

the real issue is liability with a safety system like braking. Cue all the lawyers salivating right now at aftermarket ABS retrofits.

[chicane67]

Mark... thanks for the two pence. Ill be waiting for your input during/post your new build. Since you let the cat out of the bag per-say, I am sure it will stirr up some interest. Tyler and I are just about done with the "rear end" part of the equation... so your input, will cross the T's and dot the I's.

Very cool...




Be aware it's about $6K US. Also be aware, as I learned from a senior Bosch engineer, improper calibration can put the EBCM into "ice mode" where it shuts off most fluid flow to all brake corners. It's rare, but it's happened.

My EBCM and pump is off of a C5 Z06, and all the connectors can be found at GM dealers and Mouser Electronics. Electrical diagrams are everywhere. I also installed a steering sensor, yaw and lateral accelerometer for the stability control. I am about 95% sure the ABS will be functional, and I have about 50% confidence in the stability control functioning. If it doesn't, I can use the sensors for data acquisition.

$6k !??! How about... more like $9.5k USD.

You are pretty much doing exactly what I have had on the burner for some time now. The only difference is that I opted for the C6Z pump/controller... vice the C5Z. It's an easier incorporate to the OE Delphi **E67** engine controller that I am using for the ECU.

I am currently working on the incorporation of the steering sensor to an Ididit 'shorty' column. Thus far... it's looking good. I cant wait to see yours becoming operational as well.

I'm not too much after the stability control... but the YRS and 3axis do have input to the active proportioning equation... so those two are next, after I get the CG calc sorted.

[MonzaRacer]

As for me I chose to use a 3 channel unit from an 01 Sierra. My friend narrowed and rebuilt the truck rearend and he has ATS front spindles, and Vette hubs.
We first started with a speed ratio adapter and now he has swapped tires and got similar diameters for now. Probably what almost a year on the parts, and nearly daily driving.
He has also ran some autocross and drag races and so far no issues.

[novaderrik]

why would the ABS computer need to be tuned for a specific vehicle? it senses wheel lockup and modulates pressure to that wheel until it unlocks, then pushes it until it starts to lock up again.
the weight of the car or tire traction characteristics would seem to not have much bearing on how the thing works, since it is a reactive system. of course, once you add in yaw control and stuff like that, i'm sure it gets a lot more complicated..

[silver69camaro]

why would the ABS computer need to be tuned for a specific vehicle? it senses wheel lockup and modulates pressure to that wheel until it unlocks, then pushes it until it starts to lock up again.
the weight of the car or tire traction characteristics would seem to not have much bearing on how the thing works, since it is a reactive system. of course, once you add in yaw control and stuff like that, i'm sure it gets a lot more complicated..

It is not really a "reactive" system. The computer prevents lockup by predicting it as well. So, if the system is totally wrong, it can shutoff brake pressure before lockup even happens. Not good.

[silver69camaro]

Mark... thanks for the two pence. Ill be waiting for your input during/post your new build. Since you let the cat out of the bag per-say, I am sure it will stirr up some interest. Tyler and I are just about done with the "rear end" part of the equation... so your input, will cross the T's and dot the I's.

Very cool...





$6k !??! How about... more like $9.5k USD.

You are pretty much doing exactly what I have had on the burner for some time now. The only difference is that I opted for the C6Z pump/controller... vice the C5Z. It's an easier encorporate to the OE Delphi MEFI5 engine controller that I am using for the ECU.

I am currently working on the encorporation of the steering sensor to an Ididit 'shorty' column. Thus far... it's looking good. I cant wait to see yours getting operational as well.

I'm not too much after the stability control... but the YRS and 3axis do have input to the active proportioning equation... so those two are next, after I get the CG calc sorted.

My setup has the active proportioning as well, and I'm curious to see how it works. I do have a balance bar setup that I may be able to "fine tune" if required. The brake pressure sensor appears to take readings from either the front or the rear and assume it's the same for all four wheels. So I don't think balance bar adjustments will make the EBCM freak out.

The rear was pretty easy. The reluctors can be had at any GM dealer, and the sensors are decently priced. They actually fit within the Wilwood 13" disc kit fairly well too. It's very similar to a SN95 Mustang ABS setup, I believe.

I was pleasantly surprised to see the steering sensor has a 1" DD shaft opening. What a cinch to install. The only "unknown" I have so far is brake bleeding, since I don't have a Tech II to cycle the pump. Most guys report just activating the ABS pump through emergency stops in their driveway a couple times, then re-bleeding. My driveway is long enough to where I can do that...we'll see.

[silver69camaro]

The price doesn't bother me. I've got my mind set on having ABS and traction control in the Nova, so I'll do what I have to for a 100% functional, safe system. I may actually contact you because I plan on using an AME front clip as well.

Matt

Yes, get a hold of me if this is the route you decide to go. To give you an idea of what the Bosch system requires, here's most of the required inputs (all in a Windows-based program)
1. Tire circumference (F/R)
2. # teeth on reluctor wheels (F/R)
3. Vehicle weight
4. Wheelbase
5. Track width (F/R)
6. Wheel weight (F/R)
7. Brake self-amplification (F/R)
8. Displacement of caliper (F/R)

I don't believe this system does traction control because I'm not aware of any communication with the ECU for ignition and/or throttle retard when wheelspin exists.

Also, keep in mind this system is NOT the same as a OEM ABS system. The Bosch Motorsport EBCM is calibrated for 100% braking performance, and very little to vehicle stability with ABS is engaged. See, OEM systems are designed to better keep the vehicle controlled when ABS is engaged (say when driving through water). If stability as a part of ABS is an advantage to you (which is should be), then the Bosch system may not be up to your expectations. Speaking to my contacts at GM, the Z06 is programmed more towards braking performance than most OEM systems.

[DarkoNova]

Yes, get a hold of me if this is the route you decide to go. To give you an idea of what the Bosch system requires, here's most of the required inputs (all in a Windows-based program)
1. Tire circumference (F/R)
2. # teeth on reluctor wheels (F/R)
3. Vehicle weight
4. Wheelbase
5. Track width (F/R)
6. Wheel weight (F/R)
7. Brake self-amplification (F/R)
8. Displacement of caliper (F/R)

I don't believe this system does traction control because I'm not aware of any communication with the ECU for ignition and/or throttle retard when wheelspin exists.

Also, keep in mind this system is NOT the same as a OEM ABS system. The Bosch Motorsport EBCM is calibrated for 100% braking performance, and very little to vehicle stability with ABS is engaged. See, OEM systems are designed to better keep the vehicle controlled when ABS is engaged (say when driving through water). If stability as a part of ABS is an advantage to you (which is should be), then the Bosch system may not be up to your expectations. Speaking to my contacts at GM, the Z06 is programmed more towards braking performance than most OEM systems.

Hmm, I may just try to incorporate a Vette system, then. I want to add ABS more for safety than for all out braking performance. The stability control is also somewhat for safety, but kind of just to say I have traction control, lol.

This is all a ways off, though. I have a ton of other stuff I want/need to do (like saving up for the AME clip first), so by the time I'm even at the ABS stage, there might be a kit out. :)

Matt

[chicane67]

My setup has the active proportioning as well, and I'm curious to see how it works. I do have a balance bar setup that I may be able to "fine tune" if required. The brake pressure sensor appears to take readings from either the front or the rear and assume it's the same for all four wheels. So I don't think balance bar adjustments will make the EBCM freak out.

I am under the same impression and understanding. I am utlilizing a Tilton two pedal assembly with an adjustable BB as well. As long as the master sizing is good... I too dont expect an issue with the EBCM and a/the small adjustment available thru the BB itself.



The rear was pretty easy. The reluctors can be had at any GM dealer, and the sensors are decently priced. They actually fit within the Wilwood 13" disc kit fairly well too. It's very similar to a SN95 Mustang ABS setup, I believe.

I was pleasantly surprised to see the steering sensor has a 1" DD shaft opening. What a cinch to install. The only "unknown" I have so far is brake bleeding, since I don't have a Tech II to cycle the pump. Most guys report just activating the ABS pump through emergency stops in their driveway a couple times, then re-bleeding. My driveway is long enough to where I can do that...we'll see.

For the rear... I am using the SKF C6 wheel bearing cartridge... the very same that I am using in the front ATS/AFX spindle. Pretty much plug and play for me.

Another good thing... as you pointed out... the 1.000" DD of the steering angle sensor. Since the use of a 1.000" DD shaft in the Ididit 'Shorty' column... it's going to make the steering angle sensor a breeze. Now I just have to see what the real difference between the two available sensors (15231652 vs. 15231656)... if the 'tilt' or 'non tilt' sensor will work better in its adaptation. Nice thing is... that sensor is pretty cheap.

If I only had $9.5K to toss around... I would much perfer a system that has the GUI that the aftermarket Bosch system uses.

As for the idea of using the stability and or traction control... from what I understand, the (E67) ECU that I am using recieves input from shared sensors thru the CANbus. So, I believe that you could utlilize the stability / traction control if... if... you used all of the singular components that were used from the donor system. What needs to be paid attention to with the ECU is if you are using... the production E67 or the GMPP E67 that is used in the LSx controller kits.

The GMPP controller kits use an E67 that doesnt have the ABS or Body modules unlocked. It's all there... but is not used.... and doesnt mean that it can not be un-locked... there just are not that many people with the ability (read: programing ability at the hardware level) to do this. But... the CANbus is there... so it's a player. The controller itself runs about $249.

The production E67 is an off the shelf controller... fully enabled. Funny thing is... it's actually cheaper. It's goes for about $206. The only real down sides to the current E67... is its use of narrowband O2 sensors and can only be used with a DBW throttle body. There is the ability however... to get it to work with a mechanical throttle body... but at this time it's programing is a sensative issue and is currently proprietary to the manufacturer and one other company... with no intention of pursuit at this time. Bass-tards...

It would also be nice if Mercrusier got off of their laurels... and actually offered the MEFI5c to the GP. But... they dont seem to want to make any money right now either. Bass-tards...

What I am researching right now is if the E38 available for the ZR1 uses wideband O2 sensors (I think it does)... since it is available on other applications that use the E38 and/or E67 controller itself. Let's hope so... as it would be another viable ECU to use for all of this. '09 LS7 / LS9 control, wideband O2, CANbus for other possibilities... like Body control, ABS, traction control and even stability if one wanted to pursue it. Man that would be nice...

Mark ??

[silver69camaro]

The C5 system does not use the ECU at all for stability and traction control; well, it does in a way, with the ignition and throttle retard. But it doesn't need to be there for it to work. Sounds like the Bosch 8.x system is quite a bit different.

What I don't know is how the traction control will work without the BCM (hence why I'm not positive it will work at all!). I know ABS is stand-alone, traction/stability is not. The TC dash switch is connected to the BCM, which then communicates with the EBCM through the class II serial data. Now, supposedly, the EBCM defults the traction control to "normal", but I will not have the opportunity to put it into "Competition" mode (damn!). But, I suspect there is a strong possiblity the EBCM may detect the BCM is not there and totally shut off traction control (bummer!).

ABS is what I'm after really, everything else is just cake. Like I said before, I can use the sensors for data acquisition at the very least.

[76LS1bird]

My 76 has alot of 99 camaro under the skin.
front clip with firewall
dash & steering wheel
rear axle
ALL wiring
More pics. here
http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35790
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/04/100_0162-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/bodyclip-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/100_0569-1.jpg

[silver69camaro]

Well, the ABS works. Really well, in fact...the car stops very short and straight, wet or dry. I don't think I'll ever go back.

[TitoJones]

Well, the ABS works. Really well, in fact...the car stops very short and straight, wet or dry. I don't think I'll ever go back.

:headbang:
Kickass man!


Tyler

[EFI69Cam]

The C5 system does not use the ECU at all for stability and traction control; well, it does in a way, with the ignition and throttle retard. But it doesn't need to be there for it to work. Sounds like the Bosch 8.x system is quite a bit different.

What I don't know is how the traction control will work without the BCM (hence why I'm not positive it will work at all!). I know ABS is stand-alone, traction/stability is not. The TC dash switch is connected to the BCM, which then communicates with the EBCM through the class II serial data. Now, supposedly, the EBCM defults the traction control to "normal", but I will not have the opportunity to put it into "Competition" mode (damn!). But, I suspect there is a strong possiblity the EBCM may detect the BCM is not there and totally shut off traction control (bummer!).

ABS is what I'm after really, everything else is just cake. Like I said before, I can use the sensors for data acquisition at the very least.

From what I gathered while researching retrofitting the 4th gen ABS, it seems the EBTCM sends out a PWM signal. On the 4th gen this signal is interpreted by the throttle control system which has a separate computer that controls the throttle motor. On the C5 that same PWM signal is interpreted by either the ECM or the throttle control module (I don't remember which right now)

[silver69camaro]

True. If the EBCM sees a loss of traction, it will first tell the computer to either retard timing, or cut throttle. If that doesn't control the situation, the EBCM will then apply the brakes to the spinning wheel. If you have a TrueTrac (like I do), this is a great thing. The slight amount of braking on the spinning wheel will send even more torque to the wheel with traction. In my opinion though, the automatic throttle modulation totally annoys me.

I haven't done any burnouts yet to see how it works...frankly, it's not real high on my list. ABS is all I really wanted.

[Taylor1969]

Anyone look into the Megasquirt GPIO board? It is supposed to support ABS when it comes out...