How would you build Hunkins G/28??

[JohnUlaszek]

So after reading about Hunkins Project G/28 I was thinking about how I could spend his 20k budget on the car. Here is how I would do it.

2,000 LT1 and T56 from a fourth gen
2,000 on stock LT1 Rebuild with upgraded cam and springs
1,000 for LT1 harness and misc.
100 junkyard LS1 fans
200 Griffin AL radiator
1,000 Headers and exhaust
1,500 C5 brake conversion
1,000 cage
1,500 for seats, belts and steering wheel
2,000 17x9 Vintage wheel works V40's and tires
400 Turn-One steering gear
1,000 for subframe upgrades, GW bushings, moog parts (use stock arms)
2,000 Hot Rods to Hell truckarm kit
1,000 DTS 9" rear
400 Autometer gages
200 driveshaft
400 fuel system uprgrades
2,300 Original Car purchase price

20,000

[Steve1968LS2]

1,500 for seats, belts and steering wheel


Wow, he only paid $400 for the seast so he has $1,100 left for a steering wheel and belts ;)

Plus you forgot all the misc crud that really ups the cost of your project.. weatherstriping, gaskets, nuts, bolts, repair items..

What would you do for a 65 Mustang coupe?? :D

[JohnUlaszek]

Steve,
True, the misc stuff kills ya, that's why I padded some of the numbers like seats etc.
You get the basic idea of what my recipe would be, how would you bake this cake?

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
True, the misc stuff kills ya, that's why I padded some of the numbers like seats etc.
You get the basic idea of what my recipe would be, how would you bake this cake?

Actually I like your recipie :)

The truck arm suspension is great for handling but not so great for the street.. it is very loud (rattles) and kills you on packaging an exhaust.

For this build a nice modified leaf with some killer shocks would be good and you could spend the rest tword paint (which G28 needs)..

Also, being a 76 he has to watch the smog crap since 75 and older is the cutoff.. CA is a pain when it comes to this. :nopity:

[zbugger]

Also, being a 76 he has to watch the smog crap since 75 and older is the cutoff.. CA is a pain when it comes to this. :nopity:
Building a '77 myself, I know how that is. The only changes I'd make myself would be possibly going full GW on the suspension, and try and get some money back on the purchase price. Mine was a basket case, admittedly, but I only paid $330 for it anyway.

[Conekiller13]

I wouldn't have skimped with the poly bushings, once You've had Del-A-Lum there's no going back. Also would have gone with the Cat-5 rear suspension. If handling is the goal.....pull back some on the engine and do the suspension right.

[jeff s]

I'd build it similar to "Project Y gen 3rd gen" which could be duplicated, if you bought everything for $15,000. And I'd use fiberglass leaf springs from VBP to drop some weight and improve ride

www.schwartzperformance.com

[JohnUlaszek]

Come on guys, you have a 20k (minus the cost of the car) budget, lets see some details about how YOU would do it.

[Salt Racer]

I'd pay $8K to a suspension engineer and have him design a killer front/rear suspension package. I know a good one.

:jump:


Seriously, I'd try something different than usual route. Like have someone build longer UCA/LCA to work with OE knuckles/tall ball joints to kick out hub width and improve geometry. OE Corvette rims are cheap, light, and have good offset.

Or maybe something as simple as using many off-the-shelf stock car parts. Suspension parts for 2nd gen F-bodies are plentiful (I think), and if it really is, I'm sure you can find a proven combo in one of Steve Smith's books. I'm sure average Joe will still be able to duplicate something like this.

Think outside of the box!

[SHANE 73Z]

My plan:

$2300 - original car

$2600 - GW (Loaded control arms, QA1 coilovers, tie rod sleeves, CAT5 rears, QA1 rear shocks)

$500 - front & rear sway bars

$5000 – wrecked lt1 4th gen M6 (donor parts include – engine, trans, radiator, fans, seats, rear brakes, driveshaft)

$800 – Touring classics front C5 brakes

$300 – IROC steering box conversion (includes plumbing & u-jointed mid shaft)

$500 – GW solid body mounts, Alston Racing SF connectors and front support kit

$1000 – Rear upgrades (Torsen T2R – Upgraded shafts)

$500 – fuel system (mods & upgrades)

$1000 – safety ( bar, 5-point harnesses)

$500 – instruments

$2500 – wheels & tires

$2500 – Vortech supercharger kit
________
$20,000

Some of the above numbers are estimated (guessed at even). They also assume $0 labor and some fabrication.

Shane

[trapin]

Well.....if they're truely serious about doing a 'budget' G-Machine in the spirit of the 'every day' builders budget and not a magazine conglomerate's wide pockets, then this is how I would attack it.
--------------------------------------------------------------

$2300.….Price for car.

$269.95...Use stock arms. Modify control arm attachment points to
improve geometry. There has to be some kind of Guldstrand
type maneuver you can do on that frame. Buy front end rebuild kit from
Performance Suspension (http://www.performancesuspension.com/). The kit includes graphite-impregnated
polyurethane bushings made by Energy Suspension. They improve handling
immensely and don't bind up or squeak. I got about a thousand testimonials to this on Camaros.net. Don't confuse them with regular
poly bushings. They're different.

$126.……Eibach Springs from Tirerack.com cut to desired ride height.

$200.……Koni adjustable front shocks from Summit Racing.

$200.….Koni rear shocks from Summit Racing.

$109.….. Addco 1" anodized front sway bar from Ricks First Gen.

$109.….. Addco 1" anodized rear sway bar from Ricks First Gen.

$3000.….350 Crate Engine from AR Racing Engines (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7955662780&category=33615). They have proven their worth through years of sales on e-Bay. My cousin has one in his '72 Nova and it has run like a raped ape for over 2 years now.

$1400.….700R4 Trans and Converter from www.700R4.com (http://www.700r4.com)

$725.……Front Brakes from Touring Classics (http://www.touring-classics.com).

$150.……Find reputable steering box company in local area and have them rebuild and modify current
box. I had a local company rebuild mine in Detroit and they modified the effort to make it
heavier like a new car and increased the turning ratio. My box is now 2.5 turns lock-to-lock.
My cost was $135 (no, I'm not kidding) and I'm factoring in that it might have gone up some
since then.

$98.95.…Poly body bushings from Performance
Suspension (http://www.performancesuspension.com/). Fab your own sub-frame connectors like Carl Cassanova did on his
‘68. Refer to ‘Cars’ Section for more information on this. Price includes guess on steel cost.

$1000.….Rebuild 8.5” 10-bolt with Eaton Posi and new Richmond ring and pinion. Stock axles will be
fine for a street car.

$500.……New gauges.

$1625.….For Intro ’Endless Series’ wheels and Nitto Tires. All items purchased through Discount Tire.
This is what I paid for my set, and mine are Billet Specialties wheels. Discount Tire rocks.

$350.…..New rear Leaf Springs (not sure who makes them, but I’m guessing this is what they would
cost).

$650.....Touring Classics rear disc brakes

$12,721.90.….Total. The rest of the $7279 will be needed for paint and body, interior work, and misc engine and suspension costs (which there will be many). You also have to factor in taxes and shipping costs and you’re cutting it real close.

That's my take. Who wants the soap box now?

[gchandler]

Actually I like your recipie :)

The truck arm suspension is great for handling but not so great for the street.. it is very loud (rattles) and kills you on packaging an exhaust.

For this build a nice modified leaf with some killer shocks would be good and you could spend the rest tword paint (which G28 needs)..

Also, being a 76 he has to watch the smog crap since 75 and older is the cutoff.. CA is a pain when it comes to this. :nopity:

Where does that information come from? I drive two vehicles equipped with Truckarm and I am not aware of the very load rattles that you are speaking of. Is this a baseless statement?

As for exhaust packaging, you can run a rear exit exhaust on a Camaro, or a side exit.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but I have been running Truckarm suspension on the street for close to 100,000 miles on two different vehicles and I have not encountered "very load rattles.” or any rattles at all for that matter. Being intimately familiar with the suspension I don’t see much opportunity for parts to rattle. The arms are mounted to the chassis with rubber. The coil springs are insulated with OEM style rubber sleeves, the shocks can be had with or without heim jointed ends.

In my experience, most rattling noises that people encounter on their hotrods come from exhaust systems mounted with solid mounts or with insufficient clearance between the frame of the floor of the car. A well sorted out exhaust system does not cost more then a few hundred dollars, or a day in the garage with a welder and a few OEM style exhaust mounting straps.

I just don't want miss information being spread in a public form that many people use as a primary source for making product purchase decisions.

[dennis68]

Speaking of misinformation....lots of promoting the whole polygraphite thing lately. I'm sure everyone already knows that reaction of graphite with poly urethane breaks down the urethane prematurley leading to failure. Just the facts man.....just the facts.

Speaking of urethane bushings, they offer very little deflection so why not just step up to Teflon which positively offers no deflection, does not ever make noise, and lasts darn near forever.

[JohnUlaszek]

Gchandler and Dennis,
Relevant posts, but lets hear your ideas for the 20k G-Machine. We have some killer ideas going here, lets see if we can keep the creative juices flowing.

[trapin]

Speaking of misinformation....lots of promoting the whole polygraphite thing lately. I'm sure everyone already knows that reaction of graphite with poly urethane breaks down the urethane prematurley leading to failure. Just the facts man.....just the facts.
Well...I sure didn't mean to misinform anyone. I had not heard about the problems with graphite prematurley breaking down the urethane. Nobody mentioned this to me at Camaros.net when they were raving about them. I wish I would have known that before I bought mine. It doesn't really matter though...I am going with Global West or Detroit Speed arms when I revisit my front suspension next year and those will have either the delrin or delalum bushing in them. If what you say is true than I'll retract what I said about them in my post. I guess the regular poly bushing will have to suffice if you're doing a budget car.

[Steve1968LS2]

Where does that information come from? I drive two vehicles equipped with Truckarm and I am not aware of the very load rattles that you are speaking of. Is this a baseless statement?

As for exhaust packaging, you can run a rear exit exhaust on a Camaro, or a side exit.


Gee, maybe from riding in one and talking to the owner of one. Have you driven a TA equiped car? Robert Wilsons 69 LS6 Camaro was just shot for an upcomming issue. He had Hot Rods to Hell install thier truck arm suspension and while he says it handles like a slot car he also complains that it is very noisy on the street (not so much the highway but over bumps and such) which ticked him off since he spent so much $$$ trying to make the car quiet.

So I believe the comment was a little better than baseless :) -- Maybe his is an abboration but I don't know many people with truck arm suspensions (I have a small sampling to work with).

As for exhaust.. I didn't say that you couldn't run an exhaust but it does limit your choices. If you think that a truck-arm suspension and the way it travels would not affect the exhaust system choices well then.. what can I say.. I guess you could also just weld bullets to the ends of your headers too. A rear (over the axle) exhaust is possible but not easy at all. This is just what I have heard and seen, your results may vary..

Maybe we could get back on track here..

I give credit to Tony for considering paint/body work.. trust me when I say the G28 needs these things along with a little interior work. I don't think Johnny is trying to build a bare bones "as low as possible cost" g-Machine but rather on that a lot of people could afford. People need to see that this hobby is not out of reach and that they don't need to have a budget like Chicayne's or the Mule's to have fun. Isn't that what it's all about?? (I have also heard that it's all about the hokey-pokey but I think that may be baseless ;)

[JohnUlaszek]

Guys,
Truck arms vs. leaf springs vs 3-links vs. warp drives vs. afterburners etc has been argued to death in suspension forums. To keep the thread on track please take the argruments over to the suspension forum.

The purpose of this thread was to put down YOUR plan to spend Johnny's 20k, and to articulate YOUR version of pro-touring. If this means you would focus more on slot-car handling and less on creature comforts or vice versa, lets see a detailed plan.
Lets try to keep this a fun bench racing session. :cheers:

Steve,
You still haven't told us how you would do it. Here is a chance for you to second guess the boss.

[Steve1968LS2]

Guys,
Truck arms vs. leaf springs vs 3-links vs. warp drives vs. afterburners etc has been argued to death in suspension forums. Take the argruments over to the suspension forum.

The purpose of this thread was to put down YOUR plan to spend Johnny's 20k, and to articulate your version of pro-touring. If this means you would focus more on slot-car handling and less on creature comforts or vice versa, lets see a detailed plan.

Steve,
You still haven't told us how you would do it.

Me? I work for the guy so I LOVE his plan.. :worship:

:lmao:

Ok, I will sketch out a plan and post it up..

[parsonsj]

Hmmm. Good thread (let's do stay on topic here).

I appreciate the offerings of those who did some market research and tried to see what $20K might bring. I'm not one of those. :)

I don't know much about stock aftermarket suspension offerings, so I have no better suggestions, other than Katz's idea (a damned good one, I might add).

The one thing that screamed "THAT AIN'T RIGHT" about g/28 was the transmission. I think you need a manual transmission or a late model electronic trannie to get some gear selections. Shifting gears while going into and out of turns is the fun of driving, on the street or the track. I don't see how a Turbo 350 can do that.

So I'd echo the LT1/6 speed combo, or even an LT1/4L60E with a Twist Machine paddle shifter. Get a used combination, bolt it in, and go.

Alternatively you might consider a TKO-600 (get the road race version with the .82 od), and it will practically bolt in using a standard GM bellhousing, clutch and linkage, and shifter. Crossmember and driveshaft might get you, but those are relatively cheap. It's a $2500 upgrade, so something else has to go ...

jp

[JohnUlaszek]

JP,
Thanks for playing but please try again in the proper format as Trapin and Shane did.
You have to give somewhat detailed estimated list.
Remember, what would YOU build, forget you ever saw JH's list.
All you know is that you have 17,700 and a 1970's Camaro Bumper car.....

[gchandler]

12 point rollcage - $3000
tko II - $4000
zz383 - $6000
17" racing wheels and zrated tired - $3000
Well balanced shock, spring, swaybar package - $1000
Racing seat and harness - $500
Remove everything that does not make the car go. - free
$200 for a nice tachometer.

[Steve Chryssos]

Detailed list?
Okay. I'd leave pretty much everything alone except for the following:
-Gabriel HiJacker Air Shocks
-Extended Leaf Spring Shackes
-CB Radio
-7" Chain Steering Wheel
-Big Ass Sox & Martin Hood Scoop
-Tunnel Ram and Carb Combo from Summit (engine otherwise stock)
Rest of $$$ would be spent on 8 -Track tapes. You want a detailed list so here goes:
-REO Speedwagon
-Frampton Comes Alive
-Cheap Trick: Live at Budakon
-KISS: Alive
-ABBA
-That guy who did the "Kung Fu Fightin" song
-The other guy who sang "Convoy"
-Blondie
-"Grease" the movie soundtrack
-Heart
-Linda Ronstandt
-Partrige Family Greatest Hits
-Zeppelin Houses of the Holy

Where does it end??

[JohnUlaszek]

Steevo,
Well, that's a good effort and it does show that your thinking, but put the doobie down, turn off the lava lamp, quit drinking Tang and come play with the rest of us in the brave new world of 2005

The rest of you should'nt encourage Steevo by telling him how damn funny he is.

[Steve Chryssos]

Actually, I think it's a great project. It does a huge service to the hot rodding community by drawing attention to the mid seventies F-Bodies. The big bumper cars seem even less desirable than say a 73 or 79, so Hunkins has done a good thing by picking a 74-76 car.

But these cars may not hold their value well, so I echo Geoff Chandler's plan to strip it down and build a track car.....something that I would not be afraid to run in the American Iron Series.

Now take Geoff's parts list and combine it with my music list, and change the name from G28 to:

Project: 8-TRACK

see there's method to my madness. :hmm:

[Steve1968LS2]

Hey, I thought I was the comedian here???

4,000 for rebuilt smog friendly moderate output motor
1,000 for T-56 trans (pull-out from wrecking yard)
100 cooling fans
200 aluminum radiator
1,000 Headers and exhaust
1,800 Baer Brakes
300 S&W 6 point bar
1,000 for seats, belts, headliner, carpet, steering wheel
2,000 17x9 wheels and R compound tires ;)
400 Turn-One steering gear
2,000 Complete GW suspension including bushing, subframes, rear leafs and all that jaz
300 Autometer gauges
1,000 Moderately built 12 bolt rear or even a stout 10 bolt.
200 aluminum driveshaft
400 fuel system uprgrades
400 for new weatherstiping
1500 for the paint with me doing most of the prep and all the color sanding..

2,300 Original Car purchase price

20,000

[gchandler]

Looks like the thread I was responding to is gone, but back on topic what about building a clone of the Herb Adams car described in Cannon Ball Run?

[JohnUlaszek]

Geoff,
Great post, but its like herding cats trying to keep this post on topic.

I am a truck arm fan as you can see on my web page www.x1nova.com, but we are trying to keep things on topic.
Please please take this over to the suspension forum.

[Steve1968LS2]

Geoff,
Great post, but its like herding cats trying to keep this post on topic.

I am a truck arm fan as you can see on my web page www.x1nova.com, but we are trying to keep things on topic.
Please please take this over to the suspension forum.


Moo.. Meow.. well you get the idea..

Did you move the response from the truck arm owner to the suspension forum?

For what it's worth I am a fan of truck-arms as well (want one in my Mustang project) but there are issues with the system just like there is with any system.. For gchandler (does he work for a truck-arm company?) to imply that I am just pulling stuff out of my arse necessitated a response.

thats all I will say about it in here.

[gchandler]

My centerfold data sheet:

I worked at Hotrods to Hell for a while after college, but I have been a customer for the better part of the last decade.

Currently I do not work in the automotive industry in any capacity, I am a student and I do web site design part time to make some parts money.

I enjoy reading and writing about hotrods and I am turned on my long short rides between La Canada and Palmdale over Angeles Crest highway.

I am not a fan of the rain we have been having in Los Angeles so far this year as it takes a lot of the fun out of driving the chevelle.

I run www.hotrodhomepage.com, but it has been horribly lacking updates as my school schedual is quite exhausting right now, but if you have content that you would like me to host I have about 2 gigs of free space with more bandwidth then I can shake a stick at.

[JohnUlaszek]

I asked John Parsons to move the truck arm discussion over to suspension, I think something got lost on the way over.
I am going to start a truck arm thread in suspension as the poster's concerns and comments were valid and I would like that discussion to continue.

I like the truck arm concept, and as mine is not on the car yet, I am also interested in any discussion of it.
I think one data point regarding the noise issue is insufficient to say that truck arms kits are too noisy for the street for starters. Can we get some other truck arm owners to chime in?
Furthermore, pro-touring concept aside, you really have to ask yourselves, are you building a race car or a street car? A litte noise should be expected and even enjoyed.

I give up on trying to influence the course of this thread, it's like wrestling a pig. I finally figured out the pig was enjoying it. :hammer:

I say we try and get Hotrods to Hell to hook Hunkins up with a kit for "evaluation" purposes and let Johnny decide......

[Steve1968LS2]

I asked John Parsons to move the truck arm discussion over to suspension, I think something got lost on the way over.
I am going to start a truck arm thread in suspension as the poster's concerns and comments were valid and I would like that discussion to continue.

I like the truck arm concept, and as mine is not on the car yet, I am also interested in any discussion of it.
I think one data point regadring the noise issue is insufficient to say that truck arms kits are too noisy for the street for starters. Can we get some other truck arm owners to chime in?
Furthermore, pro-touring concept aside, you really have to ask yourselves, are you building a race car or a street car? A litte noise should be expected and even enjoyed.

I give up on trying to influence the course of this thread, it's like wrestling a pig. I finally figured out the pig was enjoying it. :hammer:

I say we try and get Hotrods to Hell to hook Hunkins up with a kit for "evaluation" purposes and let Johnny decide......

Oink?

I would be all for it.. I will be starting a Mustang project soon and it would be a good test bed for it. Also, while I agree that one install is not sufficient to draw a conclusion on all truck-arm systems or installs is enough that my statements were not "baseless" :enguard:

Also, I never said they are "too noisy for the street" I just said that the noise is something to consider. Also, a little noise should be expected but there becomes a point where it is a more than a little.

Ok, I am off to the suspension section to learn some stuff.. :worship:

-----------------

So nobody else had idea of what they would do with $17,600 and a tired 1976 Camaro??

[Steve Chryssos]

I FOUND IT!
The dude who sang "Kung Fu Fighting" is named Carl Douglas. The song went to #1 in England and the United States in 1974. It spent SEVENTEEN WEEKS on the charts! What were they thinking? :fart:

[Steve1968LS2]

I FOUND IT!
The dude who sang "Kung Fu Fighting" is named Carl Douglas. The song went to #1 in England and the United States in 1974. It spent SEVENTEEN WEEKS on the charts! What were they thinking? :fart:

I heard thier hands were fast as lightning.. is that true?

Also, how did they measure the speed? Radar? Laser?

[chicane67]

.....G/28.....

Boy, that sounds familiar. I wonder who came up with that one.....??? I wonder if Chris knows the answer to this one.....???