G-body ? on Xtreme Lowering

[ScotI]

I'm re-engineering my 79 Malibu. I'll ask questions for the masses but figure only a few might know. First the backround info for well informed advice:

The car was lowered w/2" dropped spindles & a Suspension Techniques 'kit' (644# front springs advertised @ 1-2" drop; 165#(?) rear springs & sway bars). Combined, it measured out to be 3" of front drop. I used poly a-arm & sway bar bushings & some decent off the shelf shocks. The rear was done w/the ST rear springs trimmed to even the stance. I boxed the stock control arms w/inserts added for the ST sway bar & did a poly/rubber combination on the bushings.

The car worked better than stock but that's not really saying much. Now that I'm in the parts aquisition stages of this rebuild, I'm trying to maintain the ride height while improving the geometry. I talked w/SC&C & got their Stage II-Plus kit for the front to improve the g-body spindle dilemma. For the rear I upgraded to Currie Trac arms & Spohn relocation brackets to counter the 'lower than normal' ride height.

I know that dropped spindles are frowned upon so I was considering the ATS spindles. But in order to get the desired ride height I want, it seems the amount of spring drop required for the stance will negate many benefits they offer (the ATS spindles advertise @ approx 7/8" drop which would require 2" of spring drop to match the current height). From what I've read & learned from various threads, that much drop will mess w/the overall geometry & vehicle dymanics.

I need help getting the most out of the suspension @ the 3" dropped ride height. ATS spindles? ART Street Challenge type set-up? Let me know your informed thoughts regarding the subject.

[nowukno]

I read this from the metco site,Not sure of the truth to it.Its only regarding the rear lower relocatoin brackets/

The Metco relocation brackets are manufactured from heavy-duty laser-cut steel, precision-welded on a fixture, and powdercoated for long-lasting surface protection. The kit includes brackets for the left and right lower control arms, Grade 8 hardware, and detailed installation instructions.
The installation of these brackets lowers the rear mounting point of the rear lower control arms, modifying the vehicle’s ‘instant center’. The ‘instant center’ of the vehicle is the point at which imaginary lines drawn to extend the vehicle’s upper and lower control arms would meet. The brackets cause this imaginary point to move toward the rear of the vehicle, reducing the tendency of the rear of the vehicle to ‘squat’ during hard acceleration. Power normally absorbed in suspension compression is instead applied to the suspension mounting points, driving the rear tires downward and significantly improving traction.
These brackets are recommended for vehicles used primarily in drag race applications, and are generally not recommended for vehicles used exclusively in street applications or vehicles used for autocrossing or road racing. As anti-squat is increased, anti-dive characteristics will increase and some vehicles may experience instability during hard, high-speed braking. The installation of the ICM brackets is a complex operation and should not be attempted

[Tony_SS]

On my Malibu I used 3" OPG drop springs and was planning on going with an SC&C stage I since I was very happy with that setup on my 79 Monte.

Remember you'll get a .5-.75 drop with the Stage 2. So add that to the .875 with the ATS spindles and a set of 1" drop springs and that'll get you there with no sacrifices.

[ScotI]

On my Malibu I used 3" OPG drop springs and was planning on going with an SC&C stage I since I was very happy with that setup on my 79 Monte.

Remember you'll get a .5-.75 drop with the Stage 2. So add that to the .875 with the ATS spindles and a set of 1" drop springs and that'll get you there with no sacrifices.
Dohhhh.... I had not considered a tall BJ/ATS spindle/current spring combination.

I was basing my numbers on the tall ATS spindle w/standard BJ's. While re-viewing their site, I noticed they have both tall & standard height offerings. Can anyone answer if this true for all the models (A, F, G body)?

That being said, ATS engineered their steering arms per the spindle application which doesn't account for the different lower BJ height. If the standard height ATS spindle is a possibility, would the bumpsteer issue emerge again now that the taller lower BJ is added to the mix?

[ScotI]

I read this from the metco site,Not sure of the truth to it.Its only regarding the rear lower relocatoin brackets/

The Metco relocation brackets are manufactured from heavy-duty laser-cut steel, precision-welded on a fixture, and powdercoated for long-lasting surface protection. The kit includes brackets for the left and right lower control arms, Grade 8 hardware, and detailed installation instructions.
The installation of these brackets lowers the rear mounting point of the rear lower control arms, modifying the vehicle’s ‘instant center’. The ‘instant center’ of the vehicle is the point at which imaginary lines drawn to extend the vehicle’s upper and lower control arms would meet. The brackets cause this imaginary point to move toward the rear of the vehicle, reducing the tendency of the rear of the vehicle to ‘squat’ during hard acceleration. Power normally absorbed in suspension compression is instead applied to the suspension mounting points, driving the rear tires downward and significantly improving traction.
These brackets are recommended for vehicles used primarily in drag race applications, and are generally not recommended for vehicles used exclusively in street applications or vehicles used for autocrossing or road racing. As anti-squat is increased, anti-dive characteristics will increase and some vehicles may experience instability during hard, high-speed braking. The installation of the ICM brackets is a complex operation and should not be attempted
When I spoke w/Mark, he described a scenario similar to this being 'true' if the vehicle is @ stock height. Please don't quote me but the summary of what he explained was that the relocation brackets help offset the effects of the 'extreme' drop vs. normal 1~2" drops. Maybe he'll chime in when he see's the g-body thread title & can correctly explain.

[nowukno]

When I spoke w/Mark, he described a scenario similar to this being 'true' if the vehicle is @ stock height. Please don't quote me but the summary of what he explained was that the relocation brackets help offset the effects of the 'extreme' drop vs. normal 1~2" drops. Maybe he'll chime in when he see's the g-body thread title & can correctly explain.
I think your right,if the car is at stock height they may not be needed.

[Marcus SC&C]

You guys are on the right track. The brackets help correct the rear geometry on seriously lowered cars. It`s not a perfect solution but it`s a big help and it`s inexpensive and easy to do.

Stage 2 and AFX spindles is a no no. You hit the nail on the head with the bumpsteer. It could be recorrected with bumpsteer adj. tie rod ends etc. but it kinda turns into chasing your own tail. If you`re happy with the wheel clearance and brakes etc. on your 2" drop spindles keep them and run the Stage 2 with them. If it`s too low just call us and we`ll fix you up with a set of the proper thickness SPC aluminum spring seats to adj. the ride height. No worries. :) Mark SC&C

[ScotI]

...If you`re happy with the wheel clearance and brakes etc. on your 2" drop spindles keep them and run the Stage 2 with them. If it`s too low just call us and we`ll fix you up with a set of the proper thickness SPC aluminum spring seats to adj. the ride height. No worries. :) Mark SC&C

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[GBodyGMachine]

If it`s too low just call us and we`ll fix you up with a set of the proper thickness SPC aluminum spring seats to adj. the ride height. No worries. :) Mark SC&C

Per Mark's suggestion, I run circle track springs up front with the adjustable cups. I had 2" drop spindles on when I first built the car. When I set it on the ground for the first time the frame was about 3" off the ground at the doors front corner. Now I have stock spindles on the car. If you want them low, you can get them low.
Have you considered air ride?
Jeff

[ScotI]

Have you considered air ride?
Jeff
Yes. I considered ATS spindles w/ART lower arms & Shockwaves but that's gets expensive in a hurry.

I've got a basic air ride set-up on one of my trucks & like it. But, for something that's driven alot, you really need all the self leveling & height sensing abilities which only come on the high dollar systems.

[slimneverdies]

So are you guys saying that its not recommended to do the Street Comp AFX package and drop springs? I dont know for sure but I think ScotI was trying to use the street comp package and still get his desired 3" drop. If not then I was curious for myself

[ScotI]

So are you guys saying that its not recommended to do the Street Comp AFX package and drop springs? I dont know for sure but I think ScotI was trying to use the street comp package and still get his desired 3" drop. If not then I was curious for myself
No, the Stage 2 kit (w/the taller BJ's) & ATS spindles is the 'no-no'. ATS spindles w/shorter springs shouldn't be an issue as far as bumpsteer.

I have the Stage 2 kit in my possesion, but I'm concerned there might be interference w/my planned wider wheels & the dropped spindles hence the reason to find an alternative to achieving my desired ride height goal. I had 15x7" vette/car ralleys before w/the dropped spindles so there was no issue.

I'm going to mount an old 18x8" TT2 on the front & see if there's interference.

[slimneverdies]

No issue with bumpsteer, but what about with camber issues? Cause as I understand that lowering the car with extreme springs drop can have ill effects on camber no matter how you align everything.

[ScotI]

From the responses I've gotten to my questions, a mild 1" drop spring won't be an issue. It's when you start trying to get @ least 2" of drop that things start getting out of whack.

I guess one of the guys from ATS (or maybe SC&C) could give the educated version of an answer to be sure though.

[nowukno]

No issue with bumpsteer, but what about with camber issues? Cause as I understand that lowering the car with extreme springs drop can have ill effects on camber no matter how you align everything.
Not with the Stage II kit

[Marcus SC&C]

The AFX spindle geometry is actually optimized with 1"-1.5" drop springs which gives you a total drop of about 2"-2.5". There are a lot of ways to get the car low,low is easy. Getting it really low WITH the really good geometry and performance takes a little more thought and planning. The AFX spindles are hard to beat not just for their drop (which is almost incidental) but their suspension geometry and steering geometry. They have the best wheel clearance of any G body spindle setup with their improved ackerman steering arms. If they`re in your budget they`re a great option,especially if you`re doing a big brake upgrade at he same time. Mark SC&C

[ScotI]

....There are a lot of ways to get the car low,low is easy. Getting it really low WITH the really good geometry and performance takes a little more thought and planning.

Now we're talkin. I like 'em lower than the 'normal' gearhead that has a lowered car. My 1/2 ton swb trucks are both dropped @ least 5" in front & 7" in back yet can still be used like a truck (gotta love that air ride) so I'm familiar w/the thought/planning scenario.

I want the car as low as it's been in the past while correcting the compromises used to get there (it wasn't a priority then).

Even my buddy feels the car was much better than stock as it was & asked "why bother?". I explained it's like guys that had the b-body spindle swaps & lived w/the bumpsteer related issues. They usually mention they didn't really notice it was 'that bad' until they corrected the issue.

If anyone else is looking for the same thing, I guess we can discuss the options here. If not, I'll get back on the phone w/Mark & see what area(s) will require the most planning.