"Real" Stock Car or New Trans-Am Series [Archive]

JEFFTATE

08-21-2008, 11:45 AM

There were comments recently on pro-touring.com about the current state of NASCAR and other current forms of racing.
See https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46599
on the thread about the PHR "Talledega" project.

Everyone seemed to interested in a thread about NASCAR and other current racing , so I thought I would start one.

The latest HOTROD magazine had a great editorial at the front entitled " Wake-Up Call ".
Rob Kinnan pretty much hit the nail on the head with his comments and I'm gonna quote some of them here.

Rob Kinnan , " I have a better idea - one that'll save the automakers hundreds of millions of dollars : pull out of NASCAR .
I mean , c'mon already. Even the most die-hard fan is no longer under the illusion that Sprint Cup cars are even remotely related to anything in production."
And
" You're not fooling anyone , and " Win on Sunday,sell on Monday " is as old a saying as " Let's do the twist ".
One way to fix it is to grab Brian France by the ear , drag him into a room , and demand a new NASCAR that races , hello , production cars. I want to see a new Charger racing a new Taurus and a new Malibu. "

" I think the automakers are just blowing their money on the series. Hey Chrysler , if you want me to buy a new Charger, show me one beat a Ford or Chevy at Daytona , with a body I can actually go down to ( Glendora ) Dodge and buy, and I'm a customer. But as long as NASCAR is just throwing your Charger sticker on its Car Of Tommorrow, it does nothing for me."

" Don't get me wrong , I love racing of any kind , and NASCAR puts on a great show, but it seems smart in this time of financial hardship for the OE's to pull out the dollars spent in NASCAR , put the money into other forms of motorsports ( a new Trans-Am series featuring your musclecars, perhaps ? ) that'll give them more bang for their bucks , AND market your wares to us that way. "

End Quote

It seems to me that the automakers should be actively promoting their automobiles by sponsoring races that prove the durability , reliability , fuel efficiency , and worth of their products.
Even develope some high power alternate fuel vehicles to spur public interest , opinion , and get a little public sympathy for the auto industry.( The auto industry has been the public scapegoat for global warming long enough ).
THAT kind of racing would prove that one manufacturers cars are truly better than another AND would sell cars.

SaturnVUEguy

08-21-2008, 11:47 AM

Those are some great quotes there, and I agree with them all! Thank you for the post, I look forward to the comments

Young Gun

08-21-2008, 12:24 PM

I think a newer "real" nascar would be awesome... actual production cars would be awesome to watch. Now who wants to write the check to get the ball rolling?

critter

08-21-2008, 12:34 PM

JEFFTATE

08-21-2008, 12:35 PM

I think a newer "real" nascar would be awesome... actual production cars would be awesome to watch. Now who wants to write the check to get the ball rolling?

I can write a check.........
It would bounce though. (LOL)

JEFFTATE

08-21-2008, 01:09 PM

And allow no modifications except those to enhance the safety of the drivers. Who cares if the don't do 200mph? Go slower but have more wheel to wheel racing. Any team caught cheating is banned for the season. Caught twice and banned from racing.

That would kinda' be what is was like in the 60's.
REAL PRODUCTION CAR RACING !
That ! would sell cars to the public !
Because of the real tie-in to production vehicles !

oestek

08-21-2008, 01:10 PM

Camaro / Challenger / Mustang would be cool.

JEFFTATE

08-21-2008, 01:23 PM

Camaro / Challenger / Mustang would be cool.

Heck Yeah !!

But , the auto manufacturers need to change the image of their cars into performance WITH economy AND environmental conservation in mind.
Like the Corvettes are doing in The American LeMans Series using E85 as fuel.
The image of the Corvette ( and Chevrolet ) has really been improved to the public.
I'm not saying that E85 is the answer to all our woes , but it's the IMAGE to the mass public that counts here.

Seriously ...

Young Gun

08-21-2008, 01:24 PM

you could even do a special exhibition sort of thing. 1 weekend where you get to run the loaded versions of the cars

Shelby vs RS Vs SRT8 sort of thing

Neil B

08-21-2008, 01:26 PM

How would the 'real' cars differ from current World Challenge or Grand-Am Cup cars? These guys have been banging fenders for years, and no one seems to care.

Damn True

08-21-2008, 01:30 PM

How would the 'real' cars differ from current World Challenge or Grand-Am Cup cars? These guys have been banging fenders for years, and no one seems to care.

The difference is that Lime Rock Park does not seat 250,000 people.

JEFFTATE

08-21-2008, 01:32 PM

How would the 'real' cars differ from current World Challenge or Grand-Am Cup cars? These guys have been banging fenders for years, and no one seems to care.

You've got a good point there ,
And truly , I haven't been watching those races until recently. I didn't even know about either series.( I had my head up my a#$. )
But somebody as big as NASCAR could do their own version and get the public to watch !
The public are like sheep.
They follow the masses.

69Nova

08-21-2008, 01:57 PM

How would the 'real' cars differ from current World Challenge or Grand-Am Cup cars? These guys have been banging fenders for years, and no one seems to care.

Exactly!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/08/05dayCrace80015-1.jpg

Those boy have been doing it for a few years now. We just need to get enough people to open there eyes. I think if you add some oval tracks, sprinkle in some Jimmie Johnson's, Tony Stewerts, and Dale Jr's you would be on the way to something big.

Benoit23

08-21-2008, 02:24 PM

Here’s a few more American Grand-Am Cup cars
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/08/manracer01-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/08/normal_ctsvrJPG-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/08/caddy5-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/08/0835741lg-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/08/2356107335_2ab9aa900e-1.jpg?v=0
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/08/20car-1.jpg

Neil B

08-21-2008, 02:42 PM

The difference is that Lime Rock Park does not seat 250,000 people.

I've raced Grand-Am Cup at both Phoenix and Daytona. Both venues were empty. The road courses like Road Atlanta and VIR get decent turn-outs, but it's a different type of fan base.

I honestly can't see this type of car doing oval track events (sans infield road course). They are not built to withstand that type of impact. You'd need to build a full tube-type chassis under them.

69Nova

08-21-2008, 03:19 PM

I've raced Grand-Am Cup at both Phoenix and Daytona. Both venues were empty. The road courses like Road Atlanta and VIR get decent turn-outs, but it's a different type of fan base.

I honestly can't see this type of car doing oval track events (sans infield road course). They are not built to withstand that type of impact. You'd need to build a full tube-type chassis under them.

How fast do you think those cars can top out at? I don't see why you can't start with a normal car and build it to withstand NASCAR style crashes. Rally car cages are pretty serious and they are in normal cars. Why couldn't NASCAR look at how they do it and make nescery changes to to fit there standards?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUjyYnQJOpc

TonyL

08-21-2008, 04:07 PM

The difference is HOW they are raced and presented to the public. We need NASCAR style "Only these cars on the track that day" racing. We also need half of the races to be on an oval track. So American race fans can follow the action. at least until they are cultured into loving real road action. There's the missing link. The crossover that is LOST on 90 percent of nascar fans. the coverage sucks during race time. following racers progress is complicated, coupled with 5 different types of race car on the same track at the same time sometimes.

Make it simple, recognizable, BELIEVABLE, and we'll eat it up. Some rich guy has to do this.

WS6

08-21-2008, 04:18 PM

I wish there was better TV coverage of the Grand Am racing. It's so much fun

SaturnVUEguy

08-21-2008, 04:44 PM

The reason more people don't know about Grand AM is they get no tv coverage. Even SpeedTV is all about NACCAR now, thanks to Fox buying it! I can't even get WRC coverage on SpeedTV anymore

Memphis

08-21-2008, 04:48 PM

Camaro / Challenger / Mustang would be cool.
That would be awesome, even Hyundai could get in on it since they've got themselves a RWD coupe coming.

critter

08-21-2008, 04:57 PM

<quote>So American race fans can follow the action. at least until they are cultured into loving real road action.</quote>

Honestly? We're too stupid to get it? So THAT"S what it is! :1st:

Seriously, do you not think if the Grand Am series had the money and marketing savvy behind it that NASCAR does we wouldn't all be fans? Do you think the Europeans would all be F1 fans if they had the NASCAR juggernaut rammed down their collective throats all their lives like we've had NASCAR (at least for us southern boys).

Sorry, I don't buy the "they ain't smart enough" argument. Look at how Americans embraced Trans Am racing back in the days when the pony cars were fighting it out. Did they "get it"? Yep. Real cars, real drivers and a real course. What killed the fan support of Trans Am? The same thing that's killing NASCAR. There's nothing there a real fan can relate to. It turned into the rich man's game.

Want another example? How about NMCA. Back in the day it was a bunch of guys with lightly modified muscle cars showing up to see who could run the quarter mile. Then it turned into another big buck, nothing resembling anything a guy off the street could drive, drag race. Hell, if I want that I'll go watch NHRA. At least they don't put on airs and run faster than anyone else.

All I'm trying to say is that if you want people to relate you have to put it on their level. Do that and spend the bucks that NASCAR does to promote its races and you'll have your fans.

I'm out.

Neil B

08-21-2008, 05:31 PM

How fast do you think those cars can top out at? I don't see why you can't start with a normal car and build it to withstand NASCAR style crashes. Rally car cages are pretty serious and they are in normal cars. Why couldn't NASCAR look at how they do it and make nescery changes to to fit there standards?

Back around 1999-2000, the Grand-Am Cup cars ran 130's - 140's at Daytona with the infield and the 'bus stop' to shed speed at the end of the superstretch. I'm sure they are faster now. I agree you could probably engineer a cage to increase safety. I believe even the old NASCAR 'stock cars' started with a stock full frame car and they built the cage and chassis on top of the full frame and then re-hung the sheet metal.

HarleyR

08-21-2008, 07:02 PM

Unless you have a captive audience like NASCAR does at 34 of 36 events it will never work.. Most fans want to see more than one corner.They dont give a rip about the cars being raced just the auctual racing like it should be.

showa

08-21-2008, 08:38 PM

Maybe NASAR should keep the COT in Cup racing......Take the next lower level of cars BACK to a production car base, wether it be with 6 or 8 cylinders (both?) again......and see how the popularity goes.....Right now the lower level of racing just seems like a place to race last years cars and bring in new talent......

NASCAR also used to have a "Dash" series of cars that ran 4 and 6 cylinders in small cars......"Looked" darn slow at Daytona but were still fun to watch......One or two years (in the 60's) they even ran Valiants, Falcons and Corvairs......

I do agree that most American race fans have been spoiled by oval tracks where you can easily follow the action....Too bad it's so hard to do for road courses....

HarleyR

08-22-2008, 04:10 AM

Most people dont even know how many divisions of NASCAR there is... 90% of fans are uneducated

JEFFTATE

08-22-2008, 04:23 AM

If the OE's put huge money behind true stock vehicle racing , and used racing as a marketing and publicity tool , it would work.
The American OE's need to do this to keep their brands alive.

Can you imagine Ford , GM , and Chrysler proving that their cars ARE better than the European and Asian brands by a direct comparison on the race track ?
Let every major manufacturer compete to prove their products.
"Put there money where there mouth is" so to speak.
They can all prove the durability , fuel economy , and environmental friendliness of their cars this way.

I'm just saying they should use racing as a marketing and advertisement tool.

JWilson

08-22-2008, 05:11 AM

I could be wrong, but I think that the Grand Am/ALMS is now owned by the NASCAR folks. Companion events are run at the road courses, and NASCAR ownership would also explain Speed's coverage.
I like to think that I love racing as much as the next guy, and more than most, but the advantage of the COT is also it's downfall. In an effort to get away from what had become an F1-type competition/engineering exercise (accomplished somewhat) by going to the COT, they now have a car that looks nothing like anything you see on the street. I ran what was called Super Street locally on dirt for a number of years. Basically: stock frame & body, 362 c.i. with factory production block & heads, 4 bbl w/vac sec, headers, and basically a choice of four tires between two manufacturers. Pretty simple. And I've got to tell you, I loved the look of a g-body on 305/60/15 Hoosiers. All went well for a few years, until the guys who won a lot came up with the idea that if we put aluminum bodies on these things it would make them a lot easier to work on, and not cost that much money. After that, the car count dwindled for about two years and the plug was pulled on the class. Was it all about the bodies? I doubt it, but I certainly think that was part of it.
In place of that class they brought in what is called Hobby class: Stock body & frame, no aluminum heads, 500 cfm 2 bbl, and the tire rule is grooved ashphalt tire that punch 50 on the durometer after the race. I would estimate it cost approximately 10k more to field a competitive hobby over the super street. The last race I went to had about 25-30 hobbies, and I don't ever recall that type of turnout for Super Street.
That was a very long rant for me to say that I think the COT hurts the manufacturers because there is no physical resemblance to the actual production model. Just putting model-correct stickers and a ricer wing on the back do nothing for promoting the model. While I'm on the subject of the wing: while I understand that it does it's job aerodynamically, I think the fact that it resembles the ricer model is far from coincidental. I see a marketing ploy to get the younger tuner guys watching. Or maybe the NASCAR guys own the wing manufacturer. I have become very jaded toward the suits in Daytona Beach.

/rant off

JEFFTATE

08-22-2008, 05:32 AM

They need to court the younger ricer kids and turn them towards the American market.

Shiro666

08-22-2008, 06:28 AM

Yes, I definately agree that NASCAR would be actually interesting if some of Kinnan's suggestion were used. The only problem is, NASCAR FANS DON'T CARE ABOUT CARS! The appeal of NASCAR is the drivers, the sense of identity and exclusion that comes from supporting them and the merchendising. Which identical blob that crosses the finish line is immaterial. The cars are just a means to an end. Barely a motorsport in my opinion. Also, the rest of Kinnan's article I found contradictory and misinformed. 4cyl Z28? Really?

New Trans Am! Clean Slate! I am so there!

JEFFTATE

08-22-2008, 06:55 AM

The only problem is, NASCAR FANS DON'T CARE ABOUT CARS! The appeal of NASCAR is the drivers, the sense of identity and exclusion that comes from supporting them and the merchendising. Which identical blob that crosses the finish line is immaterial. The cars are just a means to an end.

Good point .

I think the entire public has gotten that way about EVERYTHING.
Whether it's fake reality shows , talent contest shows , or whatever.
Nobody cares if the contestants on American Idol can actually sing. They just enjoy the fact that there is a contest that they can observe and be part of the spectacle.
You're right , everyone just wants to identify with part of a group.

No one cares about the music at a concert anymore , they just want to say they went , partied , and got a t-shirt.

This applys to racing for entertainment too.

So.... Is Racing a marketing , developement and advertising tool for the OE's
OR is it mindless entertainment for the masses ??

Nine Ball

08-22-2008, 07:55 AM

I can't stand NASCAR. Rolling billboards and mullet-mania. The NASCAR fans that I know tell me that they are mostly interested in the DRAMA between the teams and drivers. They could care less about the cars.

Pretty sad.

69stang

08-22-2008, 08:35 AM

So.... Is Racing a marketing , developement and advertising tool for the OE's
OR is it mindless entertainment for the masses ??

mindless entertainment

jackfrost

08-22-2008, 09:52 AM

are any of the Grand Am, ALMS, World Challenge on TV at all? I would watch if I knew when/what channel the races were on.

JEFFTATE

08-22-2008, 11:59 AM

trapin

08-22-2008, 08:02 PM

Thanks for that list Jeff, I'm going to set my DVR.

I've said it before and I'll say it again....NASCAR (as we remember it) is dead. I hate it with a passion now and won't watch.

If they do like Kinnan suggests....then I'm back in.

bobbaganoosh

08-22-2008, 09:16 PM

I would probably watch a nascar race if they were to use a production based car, with homoglation rules so they would have to sell a street version of the actual car. It would be like the old days all over again. A football with a ricer wing is just not entertaining.

SaturnVUEguy

08-23-2008, 12:32 PM

I though I was all alone, its nice to see other people with the same point of view

justanova

08-24-2008, 08:15 AM

I hate "NAS-JOKE" I cant stand to watch races anymore, and the media plays up the drama way too much. I think nascar should go back to stock sheetmetal with an airdam and a spoiler and thats it. if the cars suck on certain tracks or just suck all together it should be up to the manufacterer to redesign the body for next year. they should only be able to make the racecars rear wheel drive if the production cars are rwd. and they should only get to run a v8 if you can get the production car with one. and switch to fuel injection already, I mean seriously when was the last time you saw a carb on a production car? 20 years ago?.

I love watching alms/grand am/f1 etc....but they just do not get the tv coverage I would like to see. I want "speed" channel to go back to the way it used to be when they had everything EXCEPT nascar on. I mean everything from go-cart racing to wrc. but now all we get is a "NASCAR" channel on top of all the coverage nascar gets on other channels. Nascar absolutely sickens me its gotten to the point where its like a soap opera with some racing mixed in.

rant off/

HarleyR

08-24-2008, 08:39 AM

What would this new dream series use for cars... engines ,transmissions,brakes, tires....etc

justanova

08-24-2008, 09:21 AM

What would this new dream series use for cars... engines ,transmissions,brakes, tires....etc

well if nascar want to stick with using 4dr sedans as the cars then dodge charger, pontiac g8 and I quess ford will have to come up with something.

but if they do 2dr cars, then mustang, challenger, camaro

JEFFTATE

08-24-2008, 10:11 AM

They are on about every other weekend or so.

This Sunday 8/24/08 , they are all on:

Formula 1 - 9:00 am - ESPN
Grand Am Rolex Series- 12:00pm - SPEED
American LeMans- 3:00 pm - SPEED
IndyCar - 5:30 pm - ESPN2

on Wed 8/24/08 :

World Challenge - 12:00pm - SPEED

SORRY !
Formula 1 was actually on Speed at 7:00am !
ESPN had the coverage listed on their website but it was on SPEED instead.

Formula 1 does NOT have their TV schedule listed on their website.
I just got that info. from searching the web.

All those other series have their own website with ACCURATE TV coverage schedules listed.

shortrack

08-27-2008, 06:25 AM

Im unfourtunately old enough to remember and Dale Jr's show "Back in the day" proves it........In "The good old days" of Nascar with "stock" cars you were lucky to finish a race with 4 cars on the lead lap not 12 - 15 like today and the winner often stunk the place out by lapping the entire field......the difference in performance between the first and last place car in those days was HUGE!! not 3/4 of a second for the field like today.......thats what happens when you run high speeds with cars that are so different.......so you say "then they'll have to improve!".......this is true, but there is only one optimum areodynamic shape (it is the shape of a drip of water actually) So you end up in the wind tunnel and find out one manu. car is way slipperyer(?) than another so you allow this on the slower car or take away that on the others to even the drag and downforce numbers..........eventually you end up with "specials" like the Superbird and the Ford Talladaga, then you fight it out for years constantly giving and taking from one manu. to another, costing the teams millions redoing the bodies and re-windtunnelling and R&Ding their cars to the latest specs eventually progressing to........the COT

did you know the old style chassis had 4 different body configurations therefore the teams had to keep 4 different cars "in stock"? (at least two or 3 of each).....short track, intermeadiate, superspeedway and roadcourse....with the COT there is one.....race it on a 1/2 mile one week then wash it off and go to Daytona, exact same car, talk about saving $$$$

there is "stock" car racing just like the good old days of nascar every Sat night right down at your local short track.......its short of the big HP they had in the old days, its called the Street Stock class but nobody seems too interested in that

just FYI the first areo aid that Im aware of was on the 1967 Charger.......Nascar wanted to promote the midsize cars (Charger, Fairlane, Chevelle)to compete against the big Galaxies and Pontiacs (talk about differences in cars!) but the Charger was so loose it was undrivable at speed on the big tracks so nascar allowed a one inch rear spoiler for some badly needed rear downforce.....that was the start of it!......the driver was Buddy Baker

JEFFTATE

08-27-2008, 09:53 AM

Good point shortrack.

shortrack

08-27-2008, 09:57 AM

And as far as the ricer wing to please the Toyota crowd.......the official Nascar party line is the wing was introduced to lessen the "areo tight" condition prevalent in the old style chassis.......with the old style chassis & blade spoiler, when a car came up close behind there was no air available for its nose / hood to grab to make downforce since the spoiler of the car ahead was attached directly to the body, so the car trying to pass got tight and couldnt complete the pass........the wing allows some air to flow beneath it to make some downforce available for a car behind but still makes acceptable rear downforce for the car it is on.......

also in the old style chassis the leader had a tendancy to run away from the pack especially on restarts simply because his car was in "clean air" meaning with nobody in front of him he had lots of air on his front end to make downforce

bobbaganoosh

08-27-2008, 03:30 PM

Anyone remember American Sports Cavalcade on TNN? If Speed was more like that was I'd be more inclined to watch it.

trapin

08-28-2008, 03:37 PM

HarleyR

08-29-2008, 01:31 PM

Shortrack makes a lot of good points, but it does nothing to temper my disdain for NASCAR today. I understand the progression towards COT...but it didn't make it better, it made it worse. I'm glad the teams can save themselves so much money, but in the end the product on the track ends up sucking big time.

We don't have any short tracks here in Michigan that I know of that run Street Stock racing. If there were I'd definitely make it out there to watch them.
Go to NASCAR's web site and look up Local tracks... thats where the BEST racing is... There has to be one around you if not I have a friend that moved from MI and he raced so I'll get the names of a few tracks...

The COT Has done nothing to save anyone any money.....