Is A College Education Worth It?

[theoriginator]

I have a question for all those who are successful/ business owners, etc. All through middle school and high school all they push is higher education, "go to college or you won't make it". But being in the real world it seems that most people that go to college end up in jobs or careers that don't require college at all or are completely unrelated to their degree. It seems that people who own small businesses and are involved in blue collar trades are the ones that make real money much sooner, without owing thousands for school. I paint cars personally and I do better than most of the people I know who went to a 4 year school. They drive their Jettas and Mercedes while sipping Starbucks because they think they're better than us working in an office not getting dirty. However, most of the time our net worth is higher than theirs and we're much better at managing money because we're used to not knowing how much we'll make week to week. So the question is where is the real path to success? Where's the real money as far as everyone has seen?

[Bill Howell]

You sound like I did 30 years ago, but at 50 I wish I had gone to school.
I may not have made anymore money but I would not have had to work so hard to get to the same point.

I think engineering is the best bang for the buck right now. I would go back and get a degree in Civil engineering if I were 15 years younger.

[novanutcase]

They can take away your business but they can never take away your education!

John

[John510]

Depending on what your going to do you may or may not need the college education. Me and my wife own a restaurant which I run. She is a full time RN and has a BSN degree. Without the degree she wouldnt have a job. On the other hand I dont have a degree since I didnt need it to start the business.

[ls1 nova]

I went to 2 different colleges for engineering and dropped out. My wife went to college for business and now owns her own company. We both do very well. The only difference is that I cant seem to get my fingernails clean! I do think it is all in what you enjoy. If you are lucky you can be successful either way. I do really enjoy what I am doing but it does take a toll on your body. I hope I have another 20-25 yrs in me!

[James OLC]

John is exactly right.
Your education can give you opportunities to move when you want or need to. After I graduated university I opened a speed shop which I had for a few years. When I wanted a change I worked in my chosen profession for six or seven years and car building became a hobby. When my industry took a downturn, I looked to other options to make it through. A couple of years later the industry recovered and I went back. Today cars are a hobby (ok - unhealthy obsession) again but as I look to the future I can see a time where I will be building cars full time again.
Education can never hurt you.

[ls1 nova]

I agree education can never hurt you but learn a trade well and the side work is always there. You will pay the bills with side work but the down side is no pension or benefits. If you become good at a trade and have a business sense, I have seen a few people become very successfull without a college degree. On the flip side I have friends come out of college and make anywhere between minimum wage and 6 figures!

[bwhinnen]

I started college but dropped out part way through my third year after being offered full time work. That was 17 years ago, I am now still working in the same industry that my degree would have been in and am further along than those people I was at college with.

Whilst finishing the education hasn't hampered me in any way if I'd not started and not gone as far through as I had I wouldn't be where I am today. So yes it is important to get a good grounding in your chosen profession in any means necessary.

I'm in I.T. by the way, although in hindsight Engineering would have been far more fun and interesting I think...

[novanutcase]

I started college but dropped out part way through my third year after being offered full time work. That was 17 years ago, I am now still working in the same industry that my degree would have been in and am further along than those people I was at college with.

Whilst finishing the education hasn't hampered me in any way if I'd not started and not gone as far through as I had I wouldn't be where I am today. So yes it is important to get a good grounding in your chosen profession in any means necessary.

I'm in I.T. by the way, although in hindsight Engineering would have been far more fun and interesting I think...

Don't you just love doing software rollouts or clustering servers?!? LOL!

JOhn

[bigvegan]

Whatever you do, MAKE GOOD AND DAMN SURE that what you want to get an education in is what you actually want to do.

Otherwise you may end up taking the socially acceptable route and end up with a B.A. and a law degree and an assload of student loans, without any interest in the actual field whatsoever (Dealing with lawyers for the rest of my career? Really?), and a salary that's not nearly what it should be, since there are so many other people competing for the same spots to pay off THEIR student loans.

(I have nobody to blame but myself for this bonehead move, but I'd hate to see anyone else make the same mistake.)

So, if possible do the following:
1. Go to school to learn how to do something you REALLY want to do with your life, and that will actually pay the bills, not just for the "intellectual experience".
2. Make sure at least one of your majors provides a lucrative skill at the end of it, without the need for substantially more schooling. (Unless you're going to med school. Knowing how to do emergency surgery makes you a very useful person to have around, regardless of whatever else you end up doing.)

This should be completely obvious. I did not get the memo in time.

Good Luck!

[Damn True]

Steve Jobs - No degree
Steve Wozniak - No degree when apple was founded but he got one later under a pseudonym
Larry Ellison - No degree
Bill Gates - No degree
Dustin Moskovitz - No degree


Can you get a good job with apple, Oracle, Microsoft or facebook without a degree? No.

Interesting paradox, but true.

Here's the thing. Having a degree means nothing. I know MBA's who can't find work. I know a dude with a psych degree who is head of engineering development for a server company. I know a guy with a biology degree who was the CTO for Seagate and is now on the Board of Directors of three corporations, two of which will make a Billion dollars this year.

What a degree does is open doors and provide options. You can get a highly focused degree that will prepare you for one thing and one thing only....and hope you like it and the industry remains solvent. Or, you can get a broader degree and morph your skillset to the demands of the workplace and your interests.

I find that I am most impressed by job candidates who have worked in a trade THEN gotten themselves a degree. Moreso by the people who have done the above at the same time. They seem to know what it means to work your a$$ off. Understand that reward comes from hard work and have less of a sense of entitlement.

My recommendation would be to learn a trade (in the military or private sector but I prefer the former). While doing so, or afterward, get a degree and don't marry or have kids until both are complete. You never know when your company is going to get bought out, or your entire industry might decide that it's best to do things overseas. Having the trade to fall back on could prove to be a valuable insurance policy but absolutely will teach you the value of hard work and that is something a potential employer can see from a mile away.

[406 Q-ship]

I would say College is like anything in life you get back what you put into it. I know alot of people who have no college and are sucessful, and those with College degrees that are doing great too. When a person has a position that isn't related to their degree and is sucessful, college degree is more than just about the field in which one studies. The experience of College can be more educational than the class work.

I believe anyone can be great at anything with or without a degree, but any education is a plus and as it has been said education can never be taken from you.

[derekf]

Can you get a good job with apple, Oracle, Microsoft or facebook without a degree? No.Can't speak for Oracle or Facebook, but you can at MS... or at least it was that way a few years back.


I find that I am most impressed by job candidates who have worked in a trade THEN gotten themselves a degree. Moreso by the people who have done the above at the same time. They seem to know what it means to work your a$$ off.


That's where I am. I'm already established in the field, and just now am I moving forward with the book learnin' - 4 years into what seems to be an 8 year plan. It would have worked out better for me, I expect, had I got my degree earlier in life though.

[Paul_J]

I think it really depends on what you want to do. I agree with you that the current education system wants to push everyone into college and that's too bad for the students that would be better served going through a trade program. For myself, I struggled to make it through high school. My I.Q. is in the high 130's taking the REAL tests but academics are not something I have the aptitude for so traditional education doesn't work for me. I'm ok with that reality and I've worked around it. I'm an Electrical/Mechanical Designer for an MEP Engineering consultant and I make a good paycheck. Not nearly as much as a P.E but again, I don't have the ability to do that. As a side note I also know a lot of P.E.s that can not tie their own shoes! If what you want to do and are passionate about does not require a degree then you do have a choice.

Having money in life is not always about making lots of it. It's what you do with the money you have. Don't live beyond your means (see current housing/credit crisis), save for a rainy day, make a budget and stick to it and invest some of your paycheck for the future.

And what Tony_SS said below in a lot fewer words!

[Tony_SS]

Look for what you love to do instead of money. And then determine if you'll need a degree.

I have BFA in Graphic Design. It's a valuable education, however, they did not teach me one technical skill. When it came to learning the Mac and it's the programs, we were on our own.

[TPI Monte SS]

Wow, a lot of great stories and advice here so far!


Look for what you love to do instead of money. And then determine if you'll need a degree.


Agreed! I got through two years of college for music education before the amount of work and practicing I had to keep up with took its toll on me. So, I took a semester off and worked two part-time jobs, and also hung around my friend's repair shop. Honestly, I was thinking about becoming a full-time mechanic because I really enjoy working on cars.

My friend said to me one day, "When are you gonna get out of here and go back to school?" I told him I really hadn't decided yet, and he gave me some valuable advice. He said "Take your most favorite thing, and keep it your hobby. Take your second most favorite thing, and make it your career."

So I went back to college, finished my BA and found a teaching job. I really enjoy cars more than teaching, but I could see myself being burned out from fixing customer's cars all day and not having any time to work on my own projects. As a teacher, I have my weekends free, summers off, and I'm home by 3PM for the 180 days a year I have to work. I don't make a whole lot of money, but it's enough to keep gas in my tanks, food on the table, clothes on my kids, and pay the mortgage and bills. And that's all that matters!

[ajjones44]

For one, a college education doesn’t mean nothing compared to experience and training. A buddy of mine just left the military for a civilian job, no college education at all but tons of experience and training. He wasn’t put in an entry level position but in an executive position and now brings in 300,000+. I also now a guy with several masters degrees and even a couple of doctorates. He could find a job to say a life and now teaches at a high school.

My recommendation is to find what you want you really want to do and then find the best path to get there. That path my or may not require a degree. I believe you are already on a good path to success. You don’t have these high student loans and you probably don’t have a lot of debt. If you enjoy what you do stick with it. Continue to better yourself in your trade and then branch at and learn more and before you know it you will be capable of opening your own shop. Then I can be your first client and you can give a great deal.

[amx2334]

I was a mechanic.3 years of tech. school and 10 years on the job.Burned out. Every guy that I went to school with that I have run into left the business. They make it about 10-15 years and decide that there has to be a better way to make a living. I would imagine that alot of trades end up this way.It's a nice fallback but most people change careers multiple times throughout their life. A college ed. opens up way more opportunities later in life.Not necessarily the education itself but just getting a chance from an employer.
On the other hand I see some pretty crappy jobs advertised with some really low pay and they are asking for a degree. It makes me want to call them and say "for that kind of money your lucky if they have a HS diploma."

He said "Take your most favorite thing, and keep it your hobby. Take your second most favorite thing, and make it your career."

This is why I became a mechanic instead of being a porn star.

[rjsjea]

You have your whole life to work. Go to college, have fun and get a degree.

Your degree can help you even if it has nothing to do with your job.

[bigvegan]

This is why I became a mechanic instead of being a porn star.

QOTW

[silver69camaro]

I can't imagine not having a college education, but that's probably because I really enjoy where I'm at now.

IMO, college is more than just education in a specific field. It's a life experience that will change your life forever. It teaches you to broaden your horizons and think in ways you've never thought before. It teaches teamwork, multitasking, and working under stress.

Experience is needed for a job, college needed for a career.

[bochnak]

My wife and I are 27 and have college degrees. I'm a mechanical engineer and she is a RN. Life is good...we are both very glad we went through school.

BTW, it's not how much you make, it's what you do with your money.

Why do you ask the Q? Seeking higher salary, etc?

[68TTT]

my wife is an RN also. i work in sales. i make more than she does right now. but if i want to leave where i'm at, i go back to the bottom and have to work my way up again.ifshewants to go somewhere else she gets a bonus from the new company just for signing up. thats the biggest diff to me. you can make it without but you have alot more oppertunities if you have a degree.

i have been looking into mech. engineering recently and plan on starting school again with in the next year.

[jeffandre]

I can't imagine not having a college education, but that's probably because I really enjoy where I'm at now.

IMO, college is more than just education in a specific field. It's a life experience that will change your life forever. It teaches you to broaden your horizons and think in ways you've never thought before. It teaches teamwork, multitasking, and working under stress.

Experience is needed for a job, college needed for a career.

Basically what I wanted to say. I started going after my degree in my 30's, thinking the degree itself was important for my career. What I learned over the course of the degree program was that I may forget some of the specifics I learned, but the actual process of learning, and the critical thinking necessary to complete tasks, projects, etc. will be with me forever.

I became a better employee from going through the degree process, not from having a degree.

So looking back, the degree is nice, but the process is priceless!!!

[jackfrost]

I have to agree with what Matt and Jeff are saying. college is a blast. parts of it suck (group projects, student loans) but you will learn so much about yourself, like *how* you learn. but it depends on the industry you want to get into. you don't need a degree to be a mechanic, but you might if you want to own a bunch of mechanic shops. i'm in software, and I have friends who have no degrees and do well, and some places require you to have a degree - but enough experience will talk just as much or more than a degree. so... it depends. :razz:

but, a conversation about college wouldn't be complete with mention of the college chicks and keg parties. the only place where summer school IS cool. :Alchy:

[Nine Ball]

I've rarely met someone that regrets getting a degree. I've met too many to count that regret not getting a degree.

We have guys at my company that are getting degrees while in their 40s because they have hit the glass ceiling on raises or promotions. It happens.

I put myself through engineering school while working full time as a pipe welder and fitter. Too many days wearing nomex, hardhat, and 95F Texas sun convinced me that an engineering degree is definitely a better route. I actually enjoyed welding, but it wore me out. Took me 7 yrs of night college to finish, it was brutal but it was worth it.

Zero regrets. Especially on payday!

[Vegas69]

Get a degree in something. Life throws you curve balls and you can never know to much. Having a couple options never hurts. I went to college for auto mechanics because I liked tinkering on cars. I was a GM asep student and was mentored by one of the best mechanics you'll ever meet. Even though I am into my 8th year of a succesful Real Estate career I have no regrets. That was my gateway to Las Vegas and solid employment immediately. I only lasted 5 months here before I went out and started wheeling and dealing at 22 but I really believe I wouldn't be in my position without that skill. Would I be able to build my project at the level of quality it is without that education. I don't think there is anyway. Those skills and experience are ingrained in my mind and I'll never forget them. I may go back for another degree. Maybe golf instruction or some marketing classes. Who knows.

[theoriginator]

I know nothing is guaranteed, but I just don't want to make a bad decision that I'll regret. Personally I thing college is just another "click". It's just for networking to say "I have a degree". On the flip side, I've met a lot of females at school, that's a good thing. In december I'll graduate with a A.A.S in Auto Body. I know it's worthless in the real world, but it shows the dedication to my profession, and that should help me get my business loan. Then I'll get my dealer's license, and that's where the money is. I was thinking maybe a 4 year degree in accounting to be a cpa, I hear they bank. I think owning multiple small businesses that generate income is where it's at, because you can always sell a business and cash out, then just manage money. I don't want to be one of those 40 somethings bitter because I'm working with people half my age. I want to be to a point where I can just manage money (write checks, and collect payments, go to the bank, tax office, and crunch numbers) all day instead of working by the time I'm 27. I'm 23 with a lot of experience already. I just need to make more contacts and learn the business side of the game and I'll be there in a couple years.

[Spiffav8]

You sound like I did 30 years ago, but at 50 I wish I had gone to school.
I may not have made anymore money but I would not have had to work so hard to get to the same point.

I think engineering is the best bang for the buck right now. I would go back and get a degree in Civil engineering if I were 15 years younger.

X2

A friend once told me that an education is the best things you can do for your self and the one thing that no one can take away. It might not pay off directly in your line of work, but it will improve other areas of your life. Lord knows I would be a lot further ahead if I had a degree.

[rocketrod]

Get a college education, or you will regret it later in life! I have known way to many extremely skilled bodymen, mechanics, craftsmen, friends, etc that wishes they would have gotten a college education when they were young. A college degree does not make you smarter than anyone else, but it is a valuable key that can open the doors that would otherwise be shut.

[NOPANTS-68]

Trust me- stay in school, graduate, get focused, and get it on. I graduated in 2000 with a B.S. in Communication Studies and I never would have thought I would be managing a collision shop at this point in my career, but here I am. Of our four stores, I'm one of two people with a degree among the managers and 20 years younger than the one I just fired. Sure you hear about those without advanced educations making serious money, but you have to understand that they represent a very minute part of the population. There were times when I was stuck in class while my good friends dropped out and got jobs making great money. It seemed impossible to stay focused, but it only took a few short years for those tables to turn. You don't want to be a 32 year old sophmore- just ask one and they'll tell you to stay the course. Good luck. Remember that college is designed to make you a well rounded person, not simply a one trick pony.

[bigvegan]

I want to be to a point where I can just manage money (write checks, and collect payments, go to the bank, tax office, and crunch numbers) all day instead of working by the time I'm 27. I'm 23 with a lot of experience already. I just need to make more contacts and learn the business side of the game and I'll be there in a couple years.


Dude, you're setting yourself up for disaster with that line of thinking.

Even in the unlikely event you made enough money where you could just manage money all day in four years, what would you want to do with your days for the next 30-60 years of your life?

Answer that question, and that will tell you what you should go for further education in.

Otherwise, you risk ending up one of those bitter 40 somethings, because they also thought they'd be managing their money by age 27, and didn't make plans to learn how to do one or two of the things they loved to do well enough to make a career out of it.

As an aside, thanks for all the awesome advice in this thread! Even though I'm not the one who started it, there's some good stuff here.


He said "Take your most favorite thing, and keep it your hobby. Take your second most favorite thing, and make it your career."

That's solid gold right there. Hopefully I'll have the sense and the guts to listen.

[Jim Nilsen]

Investing in yourself is always the best way to get the greatest returns from your own efforts. What you define as your desire to do what you like to do has to lead the way you go for it. Really knowing what that is can be the tricky part. Dreams don't always fit reality once the reality is more work than you ever dreamed.Money can't buy happiness but it can sure let you know if the job is worth it. You never get a chance to stop learning in a constantly changing world. One day you wake up and find that they have changed the requirements for your job and that if you can't learn it you are disqualified.

Get smart and try to make your own luck the best you can.

[gordonquixote]

Having a post-secondary education does not mean that you will be rich and successful. The education will open doors that don't even exist without going to school though.

With that said, I think that success is all what you make it. Successful people would excel at anything put in front of them (generally speaking).

And on statistically on average, the lifetime sum of wages is astronomically higher with a degree than without.

[Air Daddy]

I work in the Student loan industry.
There is a history that not many of you know about. It's not something that is looked at when the question is asked, "Is a collage degree worth it?"
But it needs to be understood before you can understand the answer to the question.
Now remember he asked about a collage degree not a proprietary (technical) degree.
I'm also not talking about someone who wants to be a Doctor, Lawyer, RN or Physicist that requires a specific "degree". I am talking about the
person that gets the degree for "a leg up" at the human resource department of any company in today's world.

Collage enrollment would skyrocket during the Vietnam war. Wealthier families could get a deferment and keep their child from serving while he was in collage.
Of course this caused resentment among working class young men, who's families could not afford a college education.

The Master of Business Administration (MBA) was at the time considered a less than impressive degree. It was a very easy course and you were assured a degree at the end. You didn't need an MBA to get a job back then. In fact hiring business wanted work experience or you just worked your way up back then, there was no fast track to the top pay in those days.

As the years past those fortunate collage students of the Vietnam era got jobs, worked their way up and slowly became CEO's and business owners themselves. They started a legacy of (if you want to get where I am you have to go to collage). Their kids went to collage and their kids went to collage and on and on.
Today we now have the Human Recourse Department of any company and most of the upper management at almost all companies ran by collage graduates.

We do talk about this evolution in Higher Education and are happy for the business we receive. However, we also talk about the new prejudice that grew from it.

[jackreggers]

In my opinion and from my experience, the answer is yes - college is worth it if you want to end up in a white collar job. There’s nothing wrong with blue collar trades, it’s just not the path I took. If what follows sounds preachy, that’s fine because I'm using this as practice for my two teenage sons. I started in my teens as a marine mechanic (flat rate) and made fair money. I didn’t think I needed college because I was already "there" based on comparisons with people around me (my other friends and co-workers that didn’t go to college). But, I began to realize that I was enjoying working on my own stuff (66 Chevelle at the time) less and less after busting tail to get as many billable hours as possible during the weekdays. I also noticed that the older guys in the shop were making the same hourly rate as I was after 20 years and it showed physically. They were better at it, had better tools and turned in more billable hours, but those were the only real differences. I decided to go into the military and do something different. After being a firefighter and aircraft mechanic, I eventually ended up in a white collar, management job. After a while in that job, it dawned on me that most of the people in senior positions that made the comfortable money (both in and out of the military) didn't have anything that I didn't except a degree. I got off my tail at around age 30 and got my bachelors and masters at night school and online in about 7 years. The degrees and the processes I learned in school (verbal communication, organization, staying on task, meeting deadlines, and formal writing) were major factors in getting promotions within the military. When I retired from the military, I had the experience and education for a civilian job and was able to walk into an entry level position that paid the same as my military job BUT required a bachelors’ to meet the minimum requirements. Experience didn't matter as much as education and that got me in the door. Check USAJOBS for qualifications versus experience and you'll see that, for government white collar jobs, education can offset experience requirements in almost every case. The bachelors got me in the door and the masters got me an immediate $10K increase over base salary. The difference over two years paid for my entire masters program. The reason is that the higher degree enables the company to market you as a higher quality resource and charge more to the customer (Bidness 101, Freshman Year). Over the last 8 years, I've seen the same hiring process repeated over and over. It's always a combination of education and experience. Without both you probably won't meet the entry level requirements for most high-paying white collar jobs ($50K+). I see job applications frequently and put them into three stacks. Stack C is no way and I'll never look at it again (can't write a resume, doesn't have the minimums, or functionally illiterate); Stack B is where I might look if I can't find anyone else. Stack A is where the hiring will come from (good resume, meets minimums, knows how to use spellchecker, and is able to communicate something positive that relates at least remotely to the job). It sounds harsh, but it takes me 30 seconds or less to do the initial rack and stack on a resume and I've never gone back to Stacks B or C. I'm always submitting my own resumes for interesting jobs and get about a 1 - 25 callback rate. The reason for the callback (I always ask) in many cases is that I'm the only one who met the minimum requirement for education. The view I had as a teenager was that I didn’t need college because I had a good job and college was a waste of time. At that point in my life, I didn’t have the world experience and foresight to see that, for me, college would have been the right choice. As a result of my teenage wisdom, it took me to age 45 to get where I should have been financially at age 30 or less. I don’t dispute that some people will be successful without college and there are many, many examples. However, the majority of the people I know are not Bill Gates and don’t have a family business to inherit. Most will never reach a point where they are able to build up the capital and be able to write a coherent business plan to get the loans needed to start their own business. In a weak comparison, how many of the hottest high school sports stars really have a chance to be drafted by a professional sports team? It happens to a few but doesn’t happen to the majority. In the real world, it’s been my experience that the odds for employment in the higher end jobs go up remarkably when you have a college degree. Think of a degree as the key to open many of the doors that would otherwise be closed (Stack C). Once the door opens, it’s all back on you.

[Damn True]

I work in the Student loan industry.
There is a history that not many of you know about. It's not something that is looked at when the question is asked, "Is a collage degree worth it?"
But it needs to be understood before you can understand the answer to the question.
Now remember he asked about a collage degree not a proprietary (technical) degree.
I'm also not talking about someone who wants to be a Doctor, Lawyer, RN or Physicist that requires a specific "degree". I am talking about the
person that gets the degree for "a leg up" at the human resource department of any company in today's world.

Collage enrollment would skyrocket during the Vietnam war. Wealthier families could get a deferment and keep their child from serving while he was in collage.
Of course this caused resentment among working class young men, who's families could not afford a college education.

The Master of Business Administration (MBA) was at the time considered a less than impressive degree. It was a very easy course and you were assured a degree at the end. You didn't need an MBA to get a job back then. In fact hiring business wanted work experience or you just worked your way up back then, there was now fast track to the top pay in those days.

As the years past those fortunate collage students of the Vietnam era got jobs, worked their way up and slowly became CEO's and business owners themselves. They started a legacy of (if you want to get where I am you have to go to collage). Their kids went to collage and their kids went to collage and on and on.
Today we now have the Human Recourse Department of any company and most of the upper management at almost all companies ran by collage graduates.

We do talk about this evolution in Higher Education and are happy for the business we receive. However, we also talk about the new prejudice that grew from it.

That same period of time also corresponds with the greatest period of economic growth in the history of the world. While correlation does not prove causation, I'd say the model worked rather well.

[Air Daddy]

That same period of time also corresponds with the greatest period of economic growth in the history of the world. While correlation does not prove causation, I'd say the model worked rather well.

Actually America was never stronger in the world economy than right after World War II. From around 1975 to the present America stopped producing
goods and focused on profits only. Outsource = closed factories.
I never thought the Yen or the Euro would out pace the dollar, but look where we are now.

When someone tells you that they own their own company and you then ask them "what does your company make?" Do they simply say "money"?

[Scottem]

20yrs in the Air Force taught me many things, but the most important of those is how special a degree is and what it does for people. Working with so many people that don't have a degree and then working with so many that do have a degree is an almost night and day difference when it comes to daily operations.

It starts with envisioning your success and knowing where you want to go and then planning it out. Just suck it up and make it happen. It won't just benefit you, it benefits everyone you come into contact with during your entire life.

[scogin918]

I don't have a college degree, but I have plenty of people who work for me that do. -- Charles Barkley

I left school to work in my chosen field 15 years ago when my Dad told me te company he worked for was willing to pay me more than college kids straight out of school because of my experience. I didn't take the offer, but waht I did get from the experience that nowadays,albeit in certain fields; mine happens to be the lumber & building materials industry, people place just as much value, if not more, on experience vs education. If I was in a different field like my wife's which is more of a corporate enviroment, then yes a degree would definitely make a difference. As soon as she finished up school, she was promoted and given a pretty sizeable increase in pey. Now she already had about 10 yrs expereince along with that degree, but the degree sure didn't hurt.

[theoriginator]

I guess what I'm really trying to figure out is where's the money? All the members of this site, some of you have to be very well off. Why not tell your story, your insight and spread some specifics? I know not everybody is the same but, give the younger ones a heads up. Why do people have that "nobody helped me or told me so why should I help you?" attitude? So many people trying to do the right thing, going to work everyday, going to school, paying bills on time, taking care of credit. What's the purpose when you see people making it-used car dealers, people living off of government assistance, screwing people? Those people eat, drive cars, have clothes on their backs. Employers don't want to pay in relation to cost of living and wonder why so many people turn to crime and so many young people are illiterate and why they aren't good employees. Working 50-60hrs a week, falling on your face when you get home after work friday because you just spent 5 18-20hr days going to school and working because they told you to. Thinking twice about taking your girl to eat because you don't want to be on Ramen noodles the rest of the week. What happened to "to those who much is given much is required"? Or am I one of very few people who were taught to do the right thing? Not looking for a handout, I'm willing to work for mine but what's the point when screwing people seems to be the easiest quickest way to a comfortable lifestyle?

[Bill Howell]

On a lighter note, I just got this email, seems I can just buy a degree. Of course, look at the spelling, not sure I want their degree......hehe

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[jerome]

here's why you shouldn't do that:
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/428203.html

Money is a prerequisite for happiness. Health, family, friends, etc. are also prerequisites, but if you are a good person, the only two things you need to worry about are money and health.

Money is a tough one, and I'll be the first to say that you should chase the money. To me, results are what matter. I've learned this the hard way, but I've learned it early.

I'll refer to an analogy that most people are familiar with (school/college):
The kids that study to learn the material are doing it wrong. You should study to ace the test.

You should go to college, because it can open the door to whatever career you choose. How does it open that door? The door doesn't open because you've learned the required material. Everyone learns the material (to varying degrees). The door opens because you have a high GPA on your resume. You get recruited to a good job for having good GPA, good extracurriculars, and good internship experiences. You get promoted or recruited to other companies, not because you are amazing at your job (everyone else being considered is also amazing), but because you have developed an extensive personal network of contacts in the industry.

If you feel like you are getting screwed by the system, you are like everybody else. Always try to be the person dominating the system, rising above everybody else. This is the most important thing I've learned. (Very different than clobbering people to get to the top. You should clobber the system, and find the shortcut to the top. I don't mean you should step all over people)

If you are going to college to just get a degree, forget it. It's a waste. When you've made up your mind that you're gonna go to college, do better the rest of your class, get ridiculous grades, get an internship that pays better than most people's jobs, and start a career track that will take you to the top...then go to college. You have to want it more than anything else.

Think about it this way...If you would take your choice of project car and an unlimited budget to build the car, instead of a guarantee of (what you have determined to be) the best career you could have...you don't want it enough. Save your money and keep plugging away at your job trying to make ends meet. You'll know when you "get" it, but nobody can teach you, you gotta learn.

[James OLC]

I think that the other thing that you have to keep and mind, and this is something that has been evolving over the last few years but has always been true - college and university are designed more than anything to teach you how to interact with people to learn and work and move in life. I think that is why so many people who have had post secondary eduation of some kind seem to be able to succeed - even if it is not in their chosen trade. I thinik that this is true of tech schools as well as more academic institutions as well. Just as observation.

[T_Raven]

i took the original question to be more about what fields pay well, yes? i'd love to hear more also. i went to wyoming tech after high school because i knew i always wanted to do something with cars. but i've been doing it for the last 6 years now and the money sucks. the best job i've had so far was $20/hr on flat rate. but i was working 60 hours/wk just to earn 40. and the shop was slammed with work, and i'm pretty proficient so it wasn't me being slow. i work as a contractor in iraq now making a lot per year, but i also work my butt off and have to sacrifice everything that matters while i'm here. i came here so i can afford to get into a different career, or if nothing else i'll start my own little shop so that i can keep more of the profit. rather than working for someone who charges $100/hr and only pays 20.

but i'd like to hear more about what people on here do, i'm sure there are plenty of careers out there that most of us don't even know about. or even the ones we all hear about it would be nice to get some perspective from someone in those fields about pay and the overall job experience

[T_Raven]

dang i didn't even see that i was on the second page when i posted before. i just read the first, a few people said engineering was good. that's good to hear because i'm planning to look into mechanical engineering when i get home myself.

[Jim Nilsen]

I can remember someone testifying in front of Congress about the education system and they had found that people went into college smarter and came out knowing less than when they went in. They found it was more about who you met for contacts more than actually knowing something as to what they went to school for. This study was done at several ivy league schools.

It sure seems like some of those names on the email diplomas oversighted some of the laws they should have learned.

[andrewb70]

.... This study was done at several ivy league schools.....


Seems a bit ironic, don't you think? LMAO

When I was younger I was only able to get an associates degree. I started working because I needed money and for other family reasons. I did well for myself and got very lucky by being at the right place at the right time. However, I always felt like not having a degree was holding me back. So after being laid off 2 years ago, I buckled down and finished my degree. I just graduated in May and this fall I am starting an MBA program.

When you're young, money means everything. As I got older I started to realize that there is more to life than making and spending money. This is of course contrary to the views of our consumer society. All I can say is that you need to do some soul searching. It is easy to assume that money will make you happy. After all, every where you look there are ads, television, radio, talking heads, telling you the latest "thing" you need to buy to make you happy. "Just buy this or that, and all of your desires will come true." Don't fall for that trap.

"The things you own, will eventually own you." -----Tyler Durden

I would give everything I own and every penny I have to go back 20 years. But we all know that's not possible. It is not because I have regrets. Life would just be so much easier if I could do it again, knowing what I know now.

Andrew

[Tony_SS]

Amen Andrew. I left a great paying job after 7 years, because I just couldn't take the job itself any longer. All the things that I bought to distract me from the fact I hated my job were only buying me short term happiness. Eventually I got wise enough to understand that and was able to get out of that situation. Chasing the money usually makes you a slave to it.

Steve's advice is the best. Take your 2nd favorite thing and make it your career.

[69LT1Nova]

Heh, funny to hear people give out advice to be an engineer. I'm an engineer - have two degrees (mechanical, manufacturing) and love my job. But I hunger for more. Yes, it's a good job, but you cap out at just under six figures... and that's after 15-20 years experience working for the same company. I have worked as an engineer for 5 years and have worked my way from 32k/yr at my first job to 65k/yr (changed jobs, location).

I'm going back to school this fall for my MBA. I'll make six figs right off the bat as management with my engineering background, and work my way up from there. Employers appreciate that I can understand the technical heebie-jeebie talk from my future subordinates, and not have to run it through an engineering to English translation bible. What am I saying? Any education is worth it, and is a good starting point for a bigger future in your career.

Can you get by with no college education? Yep. Can you make tons of cash? Yep. But you'd better have one heck of a good invention, or be willing to sacrifice everything to do it, or have a ton of capital to invest. Lots of risk. Most people don't make it to the top without a diploma.

[amx2334]

Money can't buy happiness but poverty sure brings alot of misery.

[StRacerDuke]

College is a great place to go to get an education. That being said it's not the only place to get educated.

A College education is only worth what you are willing to put into it. If you expect to show up and say okay, I paid you now educate me you are wasting your time and money.

Here's a quick test for you:

1. During the past 2 years have you written out your goals?
2. Have you meet 75% of your goals over the past 2 years?
3. Are you honest with yourself when you failed to meet a goal?
4. Do you change your behavior and learn from your mistakes when you don't meet your goals?
5. Do you review your goals with someone who you look up to?

If you say yes to at least 4 of the 5 above then you probably have the work discipline to educate yourself in the real world. I would suggest starting in a field you are passionate about and a position that intimidates you.

If you answered No to 2 or more then College would probably be the best environment for you.

On a personal note I opted for the college route and have been very happy with the choice. When it came to my MBA, I have so chosen to learn in the real world instead of using a university. My wife on the other hand has been educated by Yale & Harvard for her post undergrad studies and is very happy with her education.

[andrewb70]

....

A College education is only worth what you are willing to put into it. ....

Man, you said a mouthfull right there. During the last two years I have sat in the same classroom as a bunch of 21 and 22 year olds. It was amazing to me just how ignorant some of these people were. Maybe I am just getting old, but I don't recall my peers, at that age, acting like that. These kids today just expect to be spoon fed. They show up, "learn" something long enough to regurgitate it back on a test, and promptly purge the information from their minds. It is unreal. Talk about a waste of time and money! Don't even get me started on writing skills....:scared:

Andrew

[jerome]

The specific knowledge you get from college is not that important.
The skills (ie. engineering gives you good quantitative background and analytical problem-solving skills) are what you take from the education.

More important than anything else is how well you do in school, because that determines where you start, and to some extent, how quickly you progress.

Andrew, I'm one of those kids you are talking about, except I don't show up. Textbooks are perfect substitutes for lectures. I don't go to class, and I learn the material studying with a couple friends. We study to beat the test, and we kill the curve. No, I don't know my professors. No, I don't go to class or take notes.

The catch is that if you can ace tests, you actually know the material very well, but you do better in school than you would, just studying to learn the material before tests. It's an important difference that most people don't quite understand. My way may not make sense to you, and it might piss you off, but there's more than one way to go through college. Those same kids may get better opportunities out of the degree than you (not you specifically, Andrew), even if you know the material better. It's not fair, but you have to know how to win, not how to fight.

[Damon777]

A wise manager once told me that it's not what you studied to get the degree, it's the fact you set and achieved a goal that makes the degree worth something.

I've got a degree in engineering (mechanical), but haven't held an engineering title since I graduated. I use the skills daily, just don't have the title.

[Nine Ball]

Heh, funny to hear people give out advice to be an engineer. I'm an engineer - have two degrees (mechanical, manufacturing) and love my job. But I hunger for more. Yes, it's a good job, but you cap out at just under six figures... and that's after 15-20 years experience working for the same company. I have worked as an engineer for 5 years and have worked my way from 32k/yr at my first job to 65k/yr (changed jobs, location).

I'd recommend that you explore other industries/companies with those two degrees. We hire fresh grads right out of college with base salaries of $55-60K and $10-15K bonuses. When they go offshore (3-5 weeks per year, avg) they earn another $150/day and also get comp days for any weekend/holiday spent out there.

I'm in the offshore oil/gas industry, cleared over $100K in my first 5 years. I'm 8 yrs into the industry now, haven't seen that cap yet.

Tony

[trapin]

I think first and foremost before you even decide to go to school or not ask yourself, "Do I even LIKE going to school?" If your someone that can't take sitting in a classroom and worrying about homework and tests...you're going to have a rough time.

Myself I only have an Associates Degree in Auto Body Design from Macomb Community College. That's it. But back then it was all that was needed to get into the design field at GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Of course you had to Co-op and work at the same time (my degree took me 4 years to complete due to the required work stints). After 4 years of that crap and graduating Cum Laude I had just about all the school I could take for a lifetime. I've been very slowly creeping towards a Bachelors in Vehicle Design through Central Michigan University's College Of Extended Learning but I'm really starting to bogg down at this point. I hate to admit it but I just don't like going to school. I'm sure I'll finish eventually but by then who knows if I'll still have a job in this industry anymore.

If you decide you like school....choose your path wisely.

[69LT1Nova]

I'd recommend that you explore other industries/companies with those two degrees. We hire fresh grads right out of college with base salaries of $55-60K and $10-15K bonuses. When they go offshore (3-5 weeks per year, avg) they earn another $150/day and also get comp days for any weekend/holiday spent out there.

I'm in the offshore oil/gas industry, cleared over $100K in my first 5 years. I'm 8 yrs into the industry now, haven't seen that cap yet.

Tony

Not all of us work in the oil industry. :worship:

I guess I've been selling myself cheap... but that's where my MBA is going to pay off. I think a lot of it has to do with the company/industry and of course location, location, location. In all, I'd never want to do anything different with my engineering education background - I LOVE THIS STUFF!

[XLexusTech]

I feel compelled to answer this. First off and education is worth what it is to the person who owns it. I dont think someone who spends years in scholl getting a Dr. in socal work just to make 40 k a year as a social worker regrets it.
YOU cant take you $$ with you and the jobs you get that make more $$ in the begining tend to flatten out.

[Surfer]

Tough to say, pretty much everyone I know that is wealthy with large companies/business they own, none went to college. Whereas pretty much majority of people I know that went to college, are stuck in dead end jobs/trying to climb the corporate ladder. I went to college and have my own business, but college didn't help me, moreso the experience is fun, and even though I went to a business college (Lynn University here) and majored in biz mngt....real world experience is completely different. And at 26 another partner and I are in the midst of getting a private equity fund started, and in both business I pretty much taught myself everything hands on, nothing applied from college. But thats not to say college was a waste.

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[Slow Ride]

seriously consider the 2 year technical degrees. You will however reach a glass ceiling and more schooling will be required to break through. MY 2 year degreed designers make more money, actually get to design stuff, and have WAY less responsibilities/stress than I do. My degree BSME from MSOE along with a PE license and 10 years of experience has put me at a glass ceiling as well. I need to get an advanced degree if I want to go any farther with my career. You will have to decide what is important to you, money right away or more down the road.

[Damn True]

If you do elect to go to school, be it for a certificate or a degree, remember that YOU ARE PAYING FOR A SERVICE.

It's a fact lost on a lot of people, but you are the employer and they (the school, the administration, the teaching staff) are the employee. They work for you. Do not go there thinking that you have to worship at their alter of learning. Demand that they stay on topic. Challenge the BS, don't let them push you around and don't walk out unless you feel that you fully understand the concepts of the class.

[aggressive male]

Hey, I've learned a lot from this thread! But I would have to say that if you have enough money to go to college then No, it isn't worth it anymore! You can just learn everything you need to learn online for free! Invest that money in stocks!

[Damn True]

Hey, I've learned a lot from this thread! But I would have to say that if you have enough money to go to college then No, it isn't worth it anymore! You can just learn everything you need to learn online for free! Invest that money in stocks!

Lemme know how that works out for you.

[aggressive male]

Lemme know how that works out for you.It has worked out great! I quit college in 96, had about 40g left. There was just so much calculus, trigonometry and other types of math most people never use in there life we had to learn! I'm glad I quit because that 40g peaked at 160G a couple months back and is now about 150. I wish I quit earlier! Maybe I won't be able to figure out the math formulas for drag calculations now but for the maybe 2 or 3 times in my life I want to do that I'll just go to a friend, school or forum like this one and ask someone to do it for me.

[derekf]

It has worked out great! I quit college in 96, had about 40g left. .... I wish I quit earlier! .

Okay, with that said, I have to ask: What was your major when you were in, how far through college had you gone, and what do you do for a living now?

[GBodyGMachine]

I didn't have time to read all the posts here, but I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in.
I went to WyoTech. I to this day believe it was a mistake. I spent 9 months of my life in BFE, spent $30,000, and got a piece of paper. Now, there is no doubt in my mind that going to WyoTech got me where I am today, but I would have much rather gone to a State College (i.e. Michigan State, Central Michigan). My first year out of school I made about $28,000 dollars. Not to bad right? Problem was I had about 500 hours of overtime.
I currently work for Livernois Vehilce Devolpment. I am subcontracted to Ford at VEVL Lab. That means Vehicle Evaluation and Verification Laboratories. My paper placed me at Livernois Motorsports, as a High Performance Technical. Loved the job, but business was going away. I took a transfer to the other side of the company, and now I am here. Ill be lucky to make $35,000 dollars this year.
The reason I throw numbers around so much is because its important. Is my $300 a month student loan payment worth making $30,000 a year? I don’t think so. I think I would be further ahead if I would have stayed in the industry for the 9 months I went to school, or pursued an education in another field. Not a field that is in such trouble.
Jeff

Also thought I would add this, so you guys dont think I am a worthless auto mechanic:

I graduated WyoTech with 8 Honors:
Outstanding Student
NTHS
Class Leader
Student Tutor
Perfent Attendence (not 1 minute missed)
Honor Roll (98%)
Can't remember the other 2, but I will look it up.

And I was top of my class in every class.

Jeff

[69LT1Nova]

It has worked out great! I quit college in 96, had about 40g left. ... I'm glad I quit because that 40g peaked at 160G a couple months back and is now about 150. I wish I quit earlier! ...

So, let me get this straight... in 12 years, your 40K investment has grown to 150K. Whereas if you got a college degree, depending on the field, you'd make around 15-20K more per year (safe estimate) than working in a trade of some sort. 12 years at 15-20K more/year = 180-240K. Yeah... :hammer: it doesn't take higher math to figure that one out. :idea:

Plus you wouldn't have to worry about the stock market taking a crap. I'm with Damn True on that!

[silver69camaro]

Hey, I've learned a lot from this thread! But I would have to say that if you have enough money to go to college then No, it isn't worth it anymore! You can just learn everything you need to learn online for free! Invest that money in stocks!

That's a poor attitude. And just plain wrong for most individuals.

Just because it didn't work out for you, doesn't mean it wouldn't for others. My starting salary after college was more than double than it would have been if I didn't go.

Companies looking to hire for a decent paying job wont even consider somebody without a BA or BS. Like I said before, a degree is more about money.

[silver69camaro]

There was just so much calculus, trigonometry and other types of math most people never use in there life we had to learn!

That's almost funny.

[Damn True]

That's almost funny.

Yeah. Almost.

I use it every day.

I'm in marketing/sales-ops.

[Young Gun]

Yeah. Almost.

I use it every day.

I'm in marketing/sales-ops.

Ive used math like that in various summer internships I have had. And I only just graduated from high school. If I've used it a fair amount at 18 im pretty convinced I will need to use it once I graduate from college.

[amx2334]

Also thought I would add this, so you guys dont think I am a worthless auto mechanic:

I for one wouldn't think that of you. I used to be one and to this day regardless of what I do for a living still consider myself one. I sometimes wish I still did it now with all the cutting edge new stuff coming out. I wouldn't think any less of anyone because of their chosen profession. Degree or not.
The measure of a man is not what he possesses in life but what he leaves behind.

[harshman]

My $.02 and no, I didn’t read all the threads.

I went to college full time and worked full time. I wanted to be an Architect and so I worked in every building trade to learn how to build while I went to school to learn how to design. The smartest thing I did in school was to interview a few firms. I basics of what I learned was this: 1) After a degree is achieved you get to start out as a draftsman for $7.00/hr. 2) The lights stay on late into the night attempting to complete a deadline. 3) I couldn’t stand still long enough to draw.

So I went to the school of hard knocks and have been better ever since. My advise: discover what you are truly passionate about, learn what you need to, talk to those that are doing what you love, find a mentor to teach you the ins and outs of the job.

[trapin]

I wouldn't think any less of anyone because of their chosen profession.
Well....if he were a male prostitute I might have a problem with that.:razz:

For what it's worth my profession is Math Surface Designer and I don't use a lick of Math. And I hate math.

Oh yes....I do hate it so.

[GBodyGMachine]

I for one wouldn't think that of you. I used to be one and to this day regardless of what I do for a living still consider myself one. I sometimes wish I still did it now with all the cutting edge new stuff coming out. I wouldn't think any less of anyone because of their chosen profession. Degree or not.
The measure of a man is not what he possesses in life but what he leaves behind.

Thanks. I didnt think anyone would view my profession "that way" on this board. I have however dated girls who's parents look down on my because I'm a "Grease Monkey". I am sure some of the guys on this board will agree with that.

Either Way, I am going back to school.
Jeff

[aggressive male]

So, let me get this straight... in 12 years, your 40K investment has grown to 150K. Whereas if you got a college degree, depending on the field, you'd make around 15-20K more per year (safe estimate) than working in a trade of some sort. 12 years at 15-20K more/year = 180-240K. Yeah... :hammer: it doesn't take higher math to figure that one out. :idea:

Plus you wouldn't have to worry about the stock market taking a crap. I'm with Damn True on that!Ummmmmmmm yeah, we'll just go with your 180-240k answer. Once your over a certain amount of money your just better off managing it anyway.

[aggressive male]

Ive used math like that in various summer internships I have had. And I only just graduated from high school. If I've used it a fair amount at 18 im pretty convinced I will need to use it once I graduate from college.You've used math like that for what? I'm just curious. All I remember is substitute teachers coming in to replace my math teacher. Kids would ask "what do we use this for in the real world anyway?" the substitute said "almost no one uses math like that in the real world. The regular teacher would just say "I use this kind of math everyday" and the kids would laugh.

[Damn True]

You've used math like that for what? I'm just curious. All I remember is substitute teachers coming in to replace my math teacher. Kids would ask "what do we use this for in the real world anyway?" the substitute said "almost no one uses math like that in the real world. The regular teacher would just say "I use this kind of math everyday" and the kids would laugh.

...and that m'lad is why the person in question was a substitute teacher.

You've seen no less than three NON-ENGINEERS profess to frequent utilization of advanced mathematics. The supposed dearth of application you are foisting upon us seems incontrovertibly disproven.

[derekf]

It has worked out great! I quit college in 96, had about 40g left. .... I wish I quit earlier! .


Okay, with that said, I have to ask: What was your major when you were in, how far through college had you gone, and what do you do for a living now?

Aggressive - you'd missed replying to this one.

[T_Raven]

Thanks. I didnt think anyone would view my profession "that way" on this board. I have however dated girls who's parents look down on my because I'm a "Grease Monkey". I am sure some of the guys on this board will agree with that.

Either Way, I am going back to school.
Jeff


i know how you feel. people feel like they need to apologize to me when i say i'm an auto tech. people have no idea what you need to know to be a good one. but people don't know the difference between a mechanic and a technician. any fool with a tool can call himself a mechanic. but a technician actually understands theory and knows how to diagnose.

but anyway, i can't believe you paid $30k for 9 months. i paid $17k for my 9 in 01/02. and i only made about $20k my first year. it was expensive and i wish i had a better paying career, i had to come to iraq as a contractor to make any money, but i'm glad i went to wyotech. cars are my passion and i have the skills to do what i want to do with my own cars, and even start my own business if i want to. i plan to go to school, probably for some kind of engineering. i am part owner of a bail bond business and i expect that to support me once we get busy enough. but i'll go to school and fix cars on the side while we are building our business. but it'll all have to wait till i stop milking this cow here in iraq lol.

[GBodyGMachine]

but it'll all have to wait till i stop milking this cow here in iraq lol.

I had the opertunity to go to Iraq. They were looking for heavy equiptment technicians. Paid $110,000 for a year term. My biggest issue was they could extend your contract with no concent. So I didnt go.
Jeff

[Slow Ride]

to me the main question is not whether a college eduaction is worth it. In todays world a college eduaction is getting to be mandatory, hell to me the question is whether to stop at a bachelors and not continue on to an advanced degree. Right now only having a bachelors is hurting me along with my age(32).

[andrewb70]

....Right now only having a bachelors is hurting me along with my age(32).

Interesting statement. Do you feel that you are too young or too old?

Andrew

[Slow Ride]

WAY too old. the young guys who go directly to a masters in engineering or an MBA have the advantage. The younger guys without families and responsibilities are able to get their MSEM or MBA's while I would have a very hard time fitting that into my life now. Another thing I'm seeing is that we are being forced into management roles when some are not suited for it.

[blown9746]

millionaire next door is a cool book talks about plumbers,electiricians, etc being millionaires that most people wouldn't think because they don't live in the biggest houses or have the latest and greatest cars, etc

[blown9746]

That being said I'm in law enforcement get paid what I consider very well for what I do. They required a degree so yes it was worth it. I say figure out what you want to do and go from there.

And you have to define for yourself what you think makes someone successful. I've gotten past using $$ as the measuring stick. I've seen too many people that have a lot of cash, but work a lot of hours and don't get to spend much time with their families. I work between 40-50 hours a wk spend tons of time with my wife and two kids. I make a bit over $100k and travel a bit here and there.

More money would be great, but it doesn't define the person you are.

[silver69camaro]

WAY too old. the young guys who go directly to a masters in engineering or an MBA have the advantage. The younger guys without families and responsibilities are able to get their MSEM or MBA's while I would have a very hard time fitting that into my life now. Another thing I'm seeing is that we are being forced into management roles when some are not suited for it.

Did you know there are many jobs that will dismiss a Masters degree if there was no job experience beforehand? To me, it makes a valid point and I was warned not to immediately get my Masters after my BS. I would think real-world job experience would be extremely helpful when earning a Masters. What does everybody else think?

[andrewb70]

Did you know there are many jobs that will dismiss a Masters degree if there was no job experience beforehand? To me, it makes a valid point and I was warned not to immediately get my Masters after my BS. I would think real-world job experience would be extremely helpful when earning a Masters. What does everybody else think?

There are many Masters programs that will not admit students with several years experience. I personally think that is the way to go. I'm starting my MBA program this fall.

Andrew

[Slow Ride]

I thought I went the correct route, but now I'm not sure. I looked at getting an MBA and almost started this fall. I looked at the classes I'd need just to get into the program and the class titles sounded like I'd hate them. If I hate the intro classes, I think I'd hate the job. I need to rethink where I want to be. Right now I want to be a Senior Project/Chief Engineer managing a good group of engineers where I still get to be involved with getting the job done. I don't really care about fundamentals of information systems, or budgeting for that matter. How I get there from here? I'm not sure.

[Damn True]

There are many Masters programs that will not admit students with several years experience. I personally think that is the way to go. I'm starting my MBA program this fall.

Andrew

The last thing a professor wants in his/her lecture is someone with practical experience that might conflict with their theory.

[silver69camaro]

There are many Masters programs that will not admit students with several years experience. I personally think that is the way to go. I'm starting my MBA program this fall.

Andrew

Did you mean 'without'? I've always heard the opposite, specifically University of Washington.

[Blown353]

Matt, I'm with you.

I was on track to get out of school with my BS and Masters in 5 years... but all my professors recommended that I take a break for a couple years after I received my BSME and go work; it gives you a fresh perspective when you go back for your masters. All school for that many years with no real world experience often alters your perception, and usually for the worse; think "book smart, real world dumb." Many PhD's I've met fall into this category, such as one of my mechanical engineering professors who could not figure out how to change the tire on his Honda Civic in the school parking garage-- I'm dead serious, he couldn't figure out the jack! Very smart guy when it came to his specific field of study but he was totally lost out in the real world.

Also, many employers don't want to hire someone just out of school with an an advanced degree and no work experience; while they see the upper level degree they also see someone with no work experience, which usually gives HR fits; they see MS and want to offer master's money (or figure the applicant will want Master's level money) while having the simultaneous conflict of wanting to offer entry level money because that individual has no work experience. We had a guy here at work with that very problem; he went all the way through his Freshman year to his PhD without working in something related to his field, and when he went out to find a job nobody would hire him because of his PhD and no work experience. To finally get hired on he had to "dumb down" his resume and remove his Masters & PhD! Cheating on a resume is never a good thing, but in this case he was understating his qualifications just to land a fresh out of school job.

Also, if you get a job first your employer in all probability will cover most, if not all, of the tuition for your masters as long as it is in a field of study related to your job.

[69LT1Nova]

I'm going to try out the MBA program at the University of Washington this fall. What sucks is that my employer (who usually foots the bill for education) has suspended all funding for school... thanks a ton, crappy economy...

And yeah, UW usually wants to see a minimum of 5 years real world experience on your application for their MBA program.

I figure it'll pay back in no time. So no worries! Plus now that the company isn't footing the bill, I can walk away and not owe any time to them. (Traditionally, you have to 'pay back' your education with a minimum 2 years of service after your diploma)

[go-fish]

Real simple solution folks. It solves everything and is so simple some may reject it as pure houie;

Put everything you have into everything you do.


It solves the debate over college or trade. Attention to detail and persevirence in either will net the greatest rewards.

[theoriginator]

So if I do decide to go to a 4 year school, which one is it that they teach you about leveraged buyouts and buying companies with debt and stuff like that? I think somebody had told me that it was accounting and finance or am I wrong? Does anybody have any idea on the requirements necessary for a sba loan of $250,000?

[bigvegan]

Originator:

That would probably be finance. You'd want to get an undergrad degree in economics, and then an MBA in finance, preferably from a top 50 school (ideally top 10-20) if you're really thinking about investment banking as a career.

The SBA and most major lenders will want to see a few things before forking out a quarter mil.

1. A solid business plan. Not just, "I've got this great idea and if you give me lots of money, maybe I can make it work", but a soup to nuts explanation of what you're going to do with your business to help it establish a solid revenue stream, with a timeline explaining what steps you're going to take and when you believe you'll be profitable.

2. A management team that's actually capable of helping you implement this business plan.

3. Evidence that you've already tapped your own funds (savings / retirement / etc.) as well as those of your friends and family, so it looks like you're not just taking a flyer on the banks money.

Also, for a new business, keep in mind that you're probably going to have to take the loan out as an individual, not as a corporation, which means if your business goes belly up, you're still on the hook. (Think long and hard about whether you really need a quarter mil loan, or whether a credit line with a bank might be better, so you don't get totally over your head.)

The SBA gives classes/seminars on starting new businesses / getting loans all the time, so attending one of those may be your best bet.

My advice would be to decide if you can start your business without a four year degree, or if you're going to need the credentials first. If you want to be an engineer / investment banker / doctor, etc., then a degree is going to be very useful.

If you want to start some sort of Mom & Pop shop / business, then the $100k+ you'd probably spend on your degree might be better spent getting the business up and running.

Whatever you do, YOUR OWN money and hard work are going to be a large part of it. All this "Rich Dad Poor Dad" nonsense about creating passive income streams and using other people's money and letting other people do the work for you doesn't usually work in the real world, especially if you haven't put in a lot of time and effort planning and studying and doing your home work.

Good Luck!

[maldo]

:smoke:

[absintheisfun]

The best way that i can think of to answer this is to see these two links:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46464

&
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46476







j/k

[jerome]

If you want to go into ibanking, the easiest way is to:

1. go to a target school (preferably an ivy, and if not, then a top 20 school in a major city)

2. study some combination of finance/econ & math/compsci, and have a 3.7+

3. network the **** out of alumni and anybody you know in the industry

4. intern summer after junior year at a bulge bracket bank

5. get a full time ibanking job at a bulge bracket at a top desk for 2 years

6. go to HBS, Stanford, or Wharton for MBA

7. go to a hedge fund or private equity firm


Easier said than done. It sounds like you don't quite have an idea what investment bankers do though. This is the dream of every overachieving bschool kid at top colleges.

This is by no means an easy way to make money, but if you're smart and you're slick with people, and you don't mind busting your ass 12+ hrs a day 365 days a year, getting **** on your first two years, it's a great career choice.

Also, if you start now, you will be in a great job market in 3-4 years.

The above is only true if you are really smart. If you took the SAT's and didn't get over a 1300, I would forget about ibanking. If you can't get into a top 40 college, I would also forget about it. There are easier ways to make money.

[theoriginator]

So if I did decide to go for a 4 year degree what's the best one where I can at least take something from what they teach in the books and use it in real life? I don't want to be like most people saying they work in something that their degree is totally unrelated to. I think accounting and finance would be helpful, no matter what industry I have a business in or work in, everybody needs to know how to manage money. Right or Wrong?

[maldo]

So if I did decide to go for a 4 year degree what's the best one where I can at least take something from what they teach in the books and use it in real life? I don't want to be like most people saying they work in something that their degree is totally unrelated to. I think accounting and finance would be helpful, no matter what industry I have a business in or work in, everybody needs to know how to manage money. Right or Wrong?

Just because you have a 4 year degree don’t make you better at managing money. It just states you went to school for anther 4 years.

I have been watching this thread for a while and like to add my input.

I have worked both sides of the rail as I call it

Spend about 10 years working for Merrill Lynch and rubbed shoulders with many of the Ivy League graduates and regular collage grads like many of us. Yes some are brilliant but they are to far a few in between …. Nooooo common sense and live in a fake world of dollars and sense (they have been in school so long that they don’t know what’s up or down ) …. And some have no idea what f is going on… what really rubs me the wrong way is that most pass the entry level and go straight to upper management with out any real experience in the work place which is the wrong way to go in my book. (give you an example ML has offices in Japan and sent some of us to check up and see what’s going on there because the offices were not making any money…. What they sent was in experience people with what I call no culture (they did not take the time to understand the people or the mechanics of how things work over there. They just wanted to model the offices just like an American would and then wonder why business did so poorly. My team leader never really cared about earning the respect from the mangers (in Japan that a big thing) …. It was difficult as it was not speaking the language and to add our arrogance was a disaster.

Also after 9-11 I saw first hand how the corporations laid people off and the way they treated people who served for 20 + years etc (that’s anther story)

My point is I would take a blue collar job (well I guess that what we still call it because in my opinion its more then that because jobs like that keeps the world turning you will always need people who can make or create things not just buy and sell with no purpose other then to have that fat pay check and live a what I call a pimp life instead a quality life with family and friends ..)

Well for me and the way I think is that I need a purpose and a satisfaction of job well done makes me sleep well at night.

For example a brick layer can look at his /her work and say wow I made that and even go back 20 years and say that’s me same thing with building a car performance cars (yeah anyone can buy a new camaro or mustang off the lot ,, anyone knows you get so much more satisfaction bringing something to life … (your respect meter jumps off the chart you guys know what I mean about that statement)

Most corp. jobs leave a empty vacuum with nothing to reflect on … expect fake friends and nothing to show for it….. (this is off the subject but I want to add it anyway) Most car guys I meet and it can be a total strange and we can be come instant friends and stay friends or at least in contact for life …. And many of the (what I call brothers take the shirt off the back for you just like a saw a few years ago where a total stranger (well a car guy) pulled over to help me and my broke ass my 97 z/28 (opti failure). (he called a buddy and tow me some 50 miles for free (well I forced money on him and a beer of course)

So I guess in a nut shell what I am trying to say is it nice to have a degree to fall back on but get a degree that is useful and that can be put into practical use but have some blue collar work experience to fall back on because when things get tough that degree don’t mean jack sh*t and the corp jobs dump people (no unions to protect you) because I know at the end of the day if the corp world give me the boot I can pick up my tools and a welder and oh yeah did I mention my CDL lic to make a living In this day and age you must be well rounded… because the job market is no where near what it was like for my father or grandfather and most people will have at least two major careers but they are the time they are 50 / unless you get in with a good municipal job etc (even that is getting tougher and tougher to get into because of the influx of people looking for job security and good benefits.