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View Full Version : Ways to make a car safer? Ideas?



Andrew McBride
02-15-2005, 07:44 PM
Well a few weeks ago I was hit in my 03" z71 heading to Dallas for a meeting and it has really opened my eyes on building a safer car.
The girl was 18 years old and totaled her 3rd vehicle! I was just heading down the Highway and a girl decided to pull across traffic from a service road and ran directly into the side of my truck.-still under warranty. Pretty much destroyed everything on the right side of my truck-lower rockers, doors, bed and bent my rearend-haven't seen that too much. They didn't total my truck though.

Since we are all interested in building a cars to perform better, What ideas do you guys have to make a older muscle car safer?
The only mods I am doing so far is adding 4th gen seats-for the higher back/neck support and 3 point belts. Now I am thinking of shoulder harnesses, and maybe a roll cage if I can find one that isn't too overwhelming. Any other ideas for a street driven car?

Ralph LoGrasso
02-15-2005, 07:49 PM
I would say if you're planning on racing your pro-touring car, a roll cage or roll bar is definitely a "necessity". Even if it's just a 4 point. You can really hide a roll cage well if you design it properly. High-back seats to prevent whiplash are a good idea as well. A collapsable steering column is always a good idea, even if it's just a small u-joint in the column. That's what Matt and I are doing with mine.

baz67
02-15-2005, 08:41 PM
Keep in mind with a cage you can hit the halo or front tubes with your mellon. Especially in a side impact like yours Andrew. Design accordingly.

Brian

parsonsj
02-15-2005, 09:08 PM
Remember this though: a cage isn't necessarily safer on the street. Properly installed, it will keep the car from crumpling into a ball in a severe accident. However it adds several unforgiving steel tubes around your head. An otherwise minor accident can be life-threatening if your noggin and the cage tubs get together suddenly.

jp

Ralph LoGrasso
02-15-2005, 09:11 PM
Wouldn't 4 or 5pt harnesses that are properly fastened, prevent most of the chance of hitting the cage with your head, since they would really limit your movement? Roll cage padding would also help to soften the impact.

Andrew McBride
02-15-2005, 09:17 PM
I am not a big fan of roll cages, or any support bars for that matter. I just hope and want to build a safer car. I am not really interested in taking this car on the track so much, more as a street driver and long hauls.
I am interested in hearing of all the options a guy can choose to make a older muscle car safer. Although no one likes to think of something happening to their cars no one can control what those other drivers are doing.

I am interested in learning more about the steering column and any other ideas?

Andrew

dennis68
02-15-2005, 10:03 PM
Wouldn't 4 or 5pt harnesses that are properly fastened, prevent most of the chance of hitting the cage with your head, since they would really limit your movement? Roll cage padding would also help to soften the impact.
Yes Ralph, wearing a 5point in a properly design cage wil prevent head injuries from the tubes. The problem comes in when guys "just running to the store" don't go through the trouble to harness up. Remember when running a cage on the street it is crucial to fully harness up ALL THE TIME.

I also insist on the windows being installed with butyl tape. Most shops use urethane as the glass on todays cars is part of the structural integrity and needs to remain in tact in a collision. On our older cars the glass is weak link, basically the only crumble zone there is, I would rather it pop out and allow some give in a major collision.

Steve Chryssos
02-16-2005, 05:21 AM
Best way to make your car safer is to reduce braking distance.
-Big Well Engineered Brakes: Must be a balanced system--not just "big" parts. Master is as important as the rotor diameter
-Lightweight Wheels: Heavy wheels increase "flywheel effect" and oppose the braking force. When, shopping for wheels, weight is more important than style or price.
-Lightweight Car: Make an effort to reduce the weight of your car in non structural areas.

Figure that out, then worry about the cockpit. And do not under any circustances run racing harnesses without a roll bar to anchor them to.

jeffandre
02-16-2005, 10:29 AM
Andrew,
Sorry to hear about the accident, I got hit at a red light (4 cars in front of me, so it didn't just change either) by a 16-year-old girl who was changing the radion station and did not even know she was coming up on a red light.

How did the accident impact your physical self? Be careful of spine and general back issues, maybe feeling okay after the accident but vulnerable to heavy or awkward lifting for a while afterwards.

As far as side impacts go, roll cages are okay of you are harnessed in AND the bars are far enough away to make contact with your body unlikely unless the side impact is at very high speeds, in which case side air bags would be a good thing. The issue with air bags is that it is unlikely that they can be installed and expected to work as intended in a vehicle that they are not designed for. The rich can probably get it done though...

I would consider looking into making the sides of the vehicle as strong as possible, either with side bars (more than one) or door reinforcement of some kind. Good luck,

Andrew McBride
02-16-2005, 11:38 AM
Jeff,

you brought up some good points to consider. I am gonna try and maybe figure some ways of reinforcing the doors. I think air bags would be a great idea, but like you said designing them to work properly would be difficult and money could play a huge factor in that.

As far as myself after the wreck: I was going around 45-50 MPH and the girl hit me in the side going about 25-30. I did 3 360 degree spins before coming to a stop in a median. Luckily it was misty rain or I believe we would have turned over.

I had a lot of adrenaline going and was pretty mad and frustrated with the situation so at the time I didn't feel the pain, but after an hour or so I settled down and started having a lot of lower back pain, and later on had soreness in my neck arms, back ect. I am seeing a chiropractor right now and have been feeling a little better but still not where I would like to be. After viewing the X-rays my back looked like it had a curve in it! Now that the wreck is over I am trying to take care of the insurance Bull crap, which Is a pain. Me being a 20 year old and not having experience with anything like this before has not been fun . Since I was in a town 3.5 hours from my hometown I didnt want the truck fixed down there, so I wanted it to be fixed by a guy who I knew who did work of my expectation. Her insurance would not pay for the shipping, because they said there are qualified body guys in that Town. Is that not a crappy deal or what? I mean why would I want my car fixed by someone I didn't even know, and then have to travel down 3.5 hours to pick it up!! and drive 3.5 back home! Well I am gonna make sure they pay for the shipping, because to me that is not a fair. I wasn't at fault, but it seems like I am getting the worse end of the deal.

MuscleRodz
02-16-2005, 03:49 PM
How about a 4th gen dash with operational airbags?

mike

TonyL
02-16-2005, 05:31 PM
there's always a fuel cell. There have been lots of deaths attributed to a ruptured tank. when is someone going to make a bolt on ABS system for older cars? think about safer windows (lexan) or laminating the existing glass to keep the shattering under control. You could install "run flat" tires, Use oversized washers and harder bolts on all the front sheetmetal to keep fenders and the hood from jutting into the passenger compartment. you could even pie cut "crumple zones" into the front sheetmetal without all that much work.

Zefhix
02-16-2005, 06:51 PM
When the Thrasher was being built I remember Steilow talking about how he intetionally used a hub design that retained a speed sensor so later he could do airbags or ABS. I never heard of him actually doing it but I know some of the SRS sytems in the GM cars are stand alone systems that use their own ECM for operation. On my next vehicle after the Chevelle, I'm going to be investing a huge amount of time into creating a retrofit system for either ABS, airbags or both if someone else doesn't beat me to it. The only thing short of amazing our cars are is an airbag system...otherwise, we got it all. :smoke:

Steve Chryssos
02-17-2005, 05:44 AM
https://www.pro-touring.com/featured_cars/Camaro/1968_Camaro/steve_chryssos_68_camaro/wreck.jpg

This happened when a Nissan Pathfinder decided to make an illegal U-Turn on a FOUR LANE HIGHWAY!!!! My car impacted against his drivers rear frame horn.

Coupla things to note in this picture:
The 30-something year old bumper deformed wildly but held--It may have saved our lives
Note the HEAVY 17" Wheel Vintiques steel rally wheels. They way a ton! I can still replay the flywheel effect of these wheels during the panic. The car said stop, but the wheels said go!! Car had Master Power 4 whl discs. Police said braking distance to impact was only 50 feet, so NOTHING could have stopped in that distance--not even an Lambo. But better brakes and wheels could have minimized damage and injury. Now I have them.

I feel for you with the insurance companies. The only course of action is to raise holy hell. Maybe then they will treat you fairly. If you are nice, they will lowball you to try and minimize their loss--just a regular business policy. Collect maximum premium, payout minimum loss.

Zefhix
02-17-2005, 09:33 AM
Jesus Steve...glad you walked away from that one! I too, had a collision in my Camaro (a 67) that destroyed the front end of it. I t-boned a mitsu that was running a red light at about 30 MPH and it rolled my fenders like a sardine can and folded my hood like a hallmark card. Strange thing is, like yours, the bumber got bent but didn't match the rest of the front end. It still makes me queesy seeing any photos of wrecked 1st gens. Crazy...I'll have to upload pics when I get a chance.
:injured:

Steve Chryssos
02-20-2005, 11:40 AM
We didn't walk away. (I know what you mean) My wife and I each got our own ambulance rides. She suffered a broken L5 vertebra and her throat impacted the dashpad causing internal bleeding. Her throat started closing up so she couldn't breathe.

Me? I bruised my sternum against the steering column. I ripped the rim off the spokes of the steering wheel. The joke was that you could read the words "Grant GT" on my chest in reverse. I also smacked my nose pretty good against the dash.

Mind you this is probably 45-50mph (decel from 65) impacting an SUV that was travelling at about 15mph.

So, on their own, lap belts are pretty useless. They just create a hinge point that can lead to a variety of upper body injuries.

chicane67
02-20-2005, 12:16 PM
Ways to make a car safer?

Easy. Educate the driver.................

Conekiller13
02-20-2005, 03:56 PM
ONe thing I never see anyone talk about when comes to "older" cars is reinforcing the seat mounting points. THe five point wont do any good if the seat bolts tear through the flimsy sheet metal floor. I've seen countless cars with aftermarket seats that don't line up at the factory mount points. In each case the owner simply drilled a new hole and installed a bolt and washer. With You strapped down tight it would seem to Me that force will transmitted to the seat which should be solidly attached.

vanzuuk1
03-29-2005, 06:54 PM
You guys may laugh but I trimmed my door locks down and put a rubber vacuum plug over them. I have seen two cases where they slashed peoples arms in a fender bender , imagine what they would do to your head in a side impact or rollover. Seats are my next upgrade , i am still considering four point harnesses that have the inertia reel. I also keep the doors locked when I drive , hoping it makes them less likely to open in a crash. I also keep an eye on any system that could dump fluid or oil , nothing worse than crashing on your oil . When I come to an intersection I cover the brake pedal as I roll through , right of way or not. I dont really carry a lot of speed into corners , i just get the car situated and power out .the last three items are carryovers from riding and racing motorcycles. Just a few things to consider.

Marcus SC&C
04-04-2005, 07:23 PM
Some OE style side impact door bars wouldn`t be a bad idea. I like the idea of a good *street* cage but a lot of time and thought has to go into the location of the bars and on some car/driver combos it`s simply not possible to keep the driver`s head away from them on a 10pt/12pt cage. Maybe I`m hyper sensitive to this one because I`m tall and hit my head on customer car cages all the time (yeah I know,that explains a lot! ;) ). All the harnesses in the world won`t stop your head from flopping to the side with a bad side impact. A friend of mine was paralyzed by hitting his head on the *window* after a 20mph side impact (it didn`t break!),a cage tube probably would have killed him outright (which saddly in this particular case might have been better but that`s another story). I prefer a 6pt/8pt for real street cars because you still get improved side impact and roll over protection (and chassis rigidity) but no added skull busters. If you can move the seats down and/or inboard for more head room or if the driver isn`t real tall disregard that.
3rd brake lights are a simple add on. I think a lot of folks today are conditioned to see 3 lights for brakes and 2 for parking lights. Compared to many new cars,older car`s brake lights may not be bright enough for people to tell them from parking lights if they`re not paying attention. If they`re integrated into the car right they can look pretty cool too.
Harnesses are a good idea in a crash but they usually prevent you from being able to lean front in the seat for better visibility when you`re pulling out,which may cause an accident. I solved that on a few of my hot rods by running Simpson 4pt. belts with dual GM inertia reels (1 wouldn`t hold up the weight of the shoulder belts). They worked well for me. Now Schroth makes inertia reel street harnesses with an optional locking feature for when you want to be held tightly in the seat. Marcus

Jim Nilsen
04-04-2005, 08:07 PM
I think it is Simpson or it is another company I can't recall right now, but there is a new type of roll bar padding that has been developed that will actually help save you. Standard roll bar padding is useless in an accident , the statistical analysis will scare you. The standard padding just splits open like the head that follows. The new padding has a rating that is kind of like a Snell rating and actually will slow your head down at a controlled rate that won't let your brain get torn up in the stopping motion.


The other saftey device is knowledge. Going to driving school will always have you come out a better driver and usually safer too. If you go to ice driving school in Steamboat Co. you will have an opportunity to become a lot safer on the snow and ice.

Some of you might be thinking that driving school wouldn't teach you anything to advance you but that truly depends on the driving school you pick and who your teacher is.

If I can find the padding I will post a link, It is really an important part of the safety of all of us who have a cage.

Always drive like everyone is going to do just the opposite they are supposed to has worked well for me over the years. And not tailgating has improved things just because it brings along a better attitude about getting to my destination.


Jim Nilsen

ilovefirstgens
04-04-2005, 10:05 PM
As all you guys who have been in acciudents said it was someone else at fault, or youre just embarrased.... I had a similar thing happen last summer in my at the time cherry "69 dodge charger slowing to a stop at a red light a few cars in front of me, girl rear ends me dead on going about 40 and i got crunched between her car and the one in front of me, i think the car was about 2 feet shorter after this, however it was gratifying that not only was her car totalled but the engine was even jammed cockeyed, and oh yes she was 19 as was her twin who was also in the car cute ones at that.

God I love that story

And My biggest suggestion after keeping yourself safe cause you can always get a new car, is to not get skrewed by the insurance company. They send you a local estimate or somethin like that, in other words the cheapest cars they can find that are the same model as yours, my favorite thing was that my local cars were from plano illinois and dallas texas, and live in california. Their origional offer was 8k and my parents eventually gave up at 13k.

vanzuuk1
04-05-2005, 02:28 AM
I've told two stories where the other person was at fault , when I figure out how to make the poles and guardrails sound at fault I will tell the other stories!

Ralph LoGrasso
04-05-2005, 01:44 PM
I think it is Simpson or it is another company I can't recall right now, but there is a new type of roll bar padding that has been developed that will actually help save you. Standard roll bar padding is useless in an accident , the statistical analysis will scare you. The standard padding just splits open like the head that follows. The new padding has a rating that is kind of like a Snell rating and actually will slow your head down at a controlled rate that won't let your brain get torn up in the stopping motion.


The other saftey device is knowledge. Going to driving school will always have you come out a better driver and usually safer too. If you go to ice driving school in Steamboat Co. you will have an opportunity to become a lot safer on the snow and ice.

Some of you might be thinking that driving school wouldn't teach you anything to advance you but that truly depends on the driving school you pick and who your teacher is.

If I can find the padding I will post a link, It is really an important part of the safety of all of us who have a cage.

Always drive like everyone is going to do just the opposite they are supposed to has worked well for me over the years. And not tailgating has improved things just because it brings along a better attitude about getting to my destination.


Jim Nilsen

Jim,

I'd be interested in the link to the new padding if you can dig it up.

Jim Nilsen
04-06-2005, 12:50 AM
I found it and here it is.

Http://www.rollbarpadding.com

Other cool stuff there too !

Jim Nilsen

Ralph LoGrasso
04-06-2005, 11:59 AM
Thanks a bunch, Jim!!

ss dave
04-09-2005, 07:41 AM
I am getting into this thread a little late but am also interested in safety for my 69 Camaro convertible. Since this thread has alot of input,wondering if anyone knows of a good 4pt. roll bar set-up/ manufacturer for my application. Installing 3pt. interia seat belts soon. Thanks.

ss dave
04-09-2005, 08:34 AM
I just visited Prodigy Custom's website and really, really like the look of their rollbar set-up in the Camaro. It is similar to Year-one's specialized Camaro rollbar, however Y-o told me it was not functional. Can that be made functional? if not see my post above.

phaseshift
04-09-2005, 05:27 PM
There are a lot of good comments here in regard to basic safety 101. I applaud this thread for being something very important, but often totally overlooked.
We have all seen people build monster power rides with weenie brakes or huge brakes on weenie suspension components. I have seen a lot of cars at shows and even at the track where the safety equipment was severely lacking. The worse case is at the track where there is someone arguing with the safety inspector about a serious nonconformance. Now how silly is that? Personally, I want the safety inspector to take one look in my vehicle and know that it is all good to go with room to spare.
From a structural standpoint, the comments about adding more than a washer if you are drilling through sheet metal is 100% correct. I believe the best way to add on like this is to have a couple of fairly substantial pieces of metal that sandwich the sheet metal and have a couple of thru-bolts that keep everything tied together. Weight penalty? Maybe a pound. If an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... we can all do that math. ;)
Marcus mentioned the Schroth harness. I am biased on this because I use the ASM system from that company on my car. I believe it is a very good system, has a lot of common sense fail safes built in and works well. It may not be the ideal system for every car, especially if you have rear seat passengers, but if you are doing something sans the rear seat, it is something to consider as it is designed specifically as an add on piece.
If you are doing a cage or full chassis, I believe the only way to safely go is with a good high back seat and over the shoulder harness (a 4 or 5 point rig). As many people have brought up, the issue here is head impact on the cage. If you are using a OEM type harness, you are going to have more movement in most crash scenarios compared to a well cinched 5 point. This is no slam on the OEM guys- they have a great system built into a vehicle with very clear constraints (dimensional, known acceleration in a crash, known chassis deformation etc...). We are modifying cars and doing things that are well outside of those constraints. It is somewhat of a gamble because there is no real testing to see how it works until the moment of the impact if it ever happens. Of course, you can pull and tug and maybe do some basic strength and shear evaluations, but in truth, I am not 100% certain how my car will do in a crash because I have never crashed it. If your seat or restraints fail and you are ejected... well, that is not good. If you are ejected from the vehicle (fully or partially), you are in serious trouble. I believe that the safest bet is to make sure that you are held firmly in place in the car until the action has stopped.

Phase

gto406
12-17-2009, 07:48 AM
A little late in posting, however an interesting/very useful thread!

I have seen some pics recently of some 'old' stock muscle that unfortunately were in accidents and the lack of crumple zones is somewhat disconcerting.

I am upgrading my GTO to 4-wheel disc brakes (and may try to retrofit an ABS system if I can find one - like the GM unit mentioned).

I am also considering further modifying the frame to incorporate more support for 'splitting apart' in a front impact. I saw a '69 GTO on the Ultimate GTO picture site smashed up pretty badly (hit a pole) and the frame appears to have just bent under the car like an accordian.

My thought was to add a cross-bar at the front frame rails (between the front suspension and the rad-saddle) to tie the front frame together, and also to modify the mid-section of the frame (to incorporate a k-member - i.e. an integral component that acts as a rad support, and ties the middle of the frame together more laterlally). I have already added gussets to the top corners of the frame, and to the side c-channels (as well as directly above where the snubber is bolted over the rear diff).

My big question is what I can do to the passenger cell, and perhaps the front end to add crumple-zones. I have also been looking into Impaxx (this is the material used by NASCAR in the Car-of-Tommorow) as part of their side impace protection. I am thinking that if I can cut/fit Impaxx appropriately into the stock door, there is sufficient backing sheet metal to support it, in the event of a side-impact.

As far as the steering column is concerned, I think GM looked after that sufficiently. The shaft between the firewall and steering gear seems to have a collapsible portion, and the main steering column (inboard of the firewall) in the passenger compartment, has the collapsible column as well. However, if anyone has a suitable replacement for the 'stock' three-point belt system utilizing the stock bucket seats, I would appreciate it!

Has anyone ever looked at Volvo's SIPS system as well? They add gussetting to the rocker and door of the front passenger doors on their vehicles. May be another option to consider.

Cheers,
Brian
'72 GTO.

TnBlkC230WZ
12-17-2009, 11:15 AM
Internal, hidden reinforcements are the best option.
A. The round tube door bars have been mentioned. They are easy to install and can be hidden behind the interior panels.
B. For the rear quarer panels, a piece of 14 gauge steel shaped like a frame rail (2*2 or larger) and spot welded in the entire length of the panel. It will also make the panel harder to dent.
C. You will want to run the same reinforcement up the b-pillar
D. A DOM tube reinforcement at the top of the dash running from a-pillar to a-pillar.
E. Subframe connectors or reinforced frame. Don't for the outriggers to the inner rockers.
F. If you have the rockers open, a 14 gauge reinforcement inside them would help.
G. Good seats properly mounted
H. Upgraded three point seat belts. Something with a tension limiter would be very helpful.