to do a whole new sub or just bolt ons

[68TTT]

what benefits are gained from replacing the whole front sub frame vs. just buying the new suspension comp. and bolting them on.

DSE front sub vs. Heidt's ??????

trying to get the right thing for my 1968 camaro.
car is my daily driver

[Mkelcy]

what benefits are gained from replacing the whole front sub frame vs. just buying the new suspension comp. and bolting them on.

DSE front sub vs. Heidt's ??????

trying to get the right thing for my 1968 camaro.
car is my daily driver

Without knowing anything about how you are going to use your car, your budget, your mechanical abilities or your build plan, I'd suggest stock sub, ATS "tall" spindles, rebuild front steering linkage, IROC steering box, Hotchkis 1.125" hollow sway bar, Afco spring adjusters and Afco springs, shocks of your choice, modern 17" wheels and low profile tires, and tubular control arms if you want to spend the money (not really needed).

The DSE and Heidt's pieces are viewed very differently on this and other performance & handling sites, so I'm not sure where you're going.

[parsonsj]

Mike's right. Heidt's and DSE shouldn't be in the same sentence. You need to clarify what you're trying to accomplish.

jp

[68TTT]

I plan on using the car as a daily driver. I have an LS3 with an M6 in the works. I plan on ordering my vintage air in the next week. the car will get serious street work and maybe a track day or 2. I'd like to be able to fit a 275 tire in the front but that is not a make it or break it thing. when it comes to my mech. ability there is no hold up there, this isn't my first car to build, more like my 5th. i just want to take this one to the next level. you know... get the right part vs. making the wrong one work.

and is one subframe better suited to a certain rear suspension over another, or more streetable. by going with a bolt in do you get any engineering benefits??

[jeff s]

And you could also consider our bolt in full chassis.

[68TTT]

can you email me the installation instructions? I looked at your web site and i like what i see.

[scherp69]

Have you checked out the Speed Tech subframe. If you go into my build thread I have a bunch of pics of it. It's a sweet piece of work. www.speedtech-performance.com (http://www.speedtech-performance.com)

[68TTT]

that subframe looks good. clean welds.

[scherp69]

The nice thing about that one is it's about $1000 cheaper than some of the other subframes on the market.

[Vegas69]

It really depends on your build plan whether it makes sense to buy an aftermarket subframe. If it does then I wouldn't let a few bucks stand in your way of getting what you want. That being said...if it's a mild pro touring build get some ATS spindles and upper control arms and it will handle great. If you decide you have to get a sub I would seriously consider a DSE sub. Top quality subframe with c6 spindles and customer support that will be there for years to come. Of course I have one in my car so I may be a little bias.

[dhutton]

The nice thing about that one is it's about $1000 cheaper than some of the other subframes on the market.

I could be wrong but I don't think the Speedtech subframe offers any performance gains over the stock subframe. The geometry is identical, isn't it? The target market is guys who have already purchased aftermarket control arms etc and want to bolt them to a new subframe. At least that is my understanding.

Don

[68TTT]

thats what i'm really trying to find out. is it just the idea of getting something new or is there a real flaw in the factory design that makes getting a new one worth while.
i know that the dse subs are stronger than factory, but i don't know if there is any real gain to be had.

[dhutton]

DSE and AME subframes have geometry improvements over the stock subframe, as do a few others. The search engine will help find most of this information.

The debate is whether or not the average guy will utilize these improvements. For me I decided to go with the AME subframe because in addition to the improvements they have done an excellent job of engineering it for LSx engines.

I haven't driven my car more than a few 100 foot runs down the driveway so I can't offer any feedback on how it drives.

Don

[68TTT]

i do plan on running an ls3 with an m6 and i want something better than stock by far. i just wonder if you get the same thing from running tall spindles and some tubular control arms. and dse says their steering box is just as good as rack n pinon...

i'm the kind of person that has to know why something is better to pay for it. i know that the dse is better, i just don't know if its $7k better.

[vp23271]

1) Does anyone know if there is a significant loss in weight between the stock sub frame and the aftermarket versions?

2) Don’t quote me, but I think I read somewhere that the DSE front sub frame (and maybe the others too) will give you more room to run a wider tire up front.

Maybe these might be some deciding factors you might want to consider too.

Can any of you veterans confirm or clarify the info above?

[Steve1968LS2]

I've been thinking the same thing.

To TOTALLY trick out a stock subframe is around $4500 (coil overs, ATS spindles, control arms, shocks, weld frame, new gear box, sway bar, etc.

To buy an complete aftermarket frame is around $6000, but you don't have to do anything, it's ready to go. and for the extra $1500 you get R&P steering and can generally run wider tires. Plus it might be lighter.

[68TTT]

i can see myself spending 1500 extra to get the wider front tires. and if you are building a show car it would save a ton of time over smoothing and filling holes in the frame.

i've been trying to put a budget together and the suspension has been my biggest unknown. thanks for all the input
if any one has any likes or dislikes on any of these different sub frames it would be great to know.

[scherp69]

I could be wrong but I don't think the Speedtech subframe offers any performance gains over the stock subframe. The geometry is identical, isn't it? The target market is guys who have already purchased aftermarket control arms etc and want to bolt them to a new subframe. At least that is my understanding.

Don

I'm not sure of all the performance gains that all the after market subframes has, but I know that the Speed Tech subframe does have some. Here's what it say on their website about it:

Speed Tech Performance is proud to announce the addition of our new 1968-1974 Nova Sub Frame. The subframe is an affordable direct replacement for you’re worn out old subframe. Speed Tech Performance’s subframe offers the benefits of. Rack and pinion Rear steer, sway bar, built in guildstrand mod, coil over shocks and.... you can reuse all your current Aftermarket suspension components, brakes and wheels. Or upgrade to our new HI Clearance control arm set (included in complete sub frame kit) The Sub frame accepts Small and Big Blocks using the stock oil pan and also accepts the LSx series using the ATS (American Touring Specialities)oil pan and motor mount adaptors.

The other nice things about this one is with their set up, you can run up to 10" wide rims on the front and the subframe only weighs 125 pounds. I can tell you from first hand experience, this subframe is quite a bit lighter than the stock one. I have both sitting in my shop. Frank at Prodigy Customs used the first Speed Tech subframe on Project Emptynest. I know all the other companies such as AME and DSE have great products and no one can argue that. Speed Tech has brought out a great new product into a market where there is some strong competition. They have a good product that does provide performance gains and like they say, is affordable. The complete subframe package runs $4700 and then you can add the ATS spindles if you want. I just know that I have had two sets of their control arms and the subframe now and am very impressed with it. I'm just adding my 2 cents. I think it's a great product and worth considering.

[dhutton]

I've been thinking the same thing.

To TOTALLY trick out a stock subframe is around $4500 (coil overs, ATS spindles, control arms, shocks, weld frame, new gear box, sway bar, etc.

To buy an complete aftermarket frame is around $6000, but you don't have to do anything, it's ready to go. and for the extra $1500 you get R&P steering and can generally run wider tires. Plus it might be lighter.

If you factor in the fact that you can use a stock F body LSx oil pan and stock accessories with the AME subframe (not sure about DSE but probably the same case) savings can increase significantly, assuming you can live with the stock accessories. The AME subframe also allows you to bolt on C5 Z06 brakes for significant savings over Wilwood or Baer. My build is a budget build and I chose this "low bling" path to get excellent performance and an affordable LSx conversion.

Don

[silver69camaro]

1) Does anyone know if there is a significant loss in weight between the stock sub frame and the aftermarket versions?

2) Don’t quote me, but I think I read somewhere that the DSE front sub frame (and maybe the others too) will give you more room to run a wider tire up front.

Maybe these might be some deciding factors you might want to consider too.

Can any of you veterans confirm or clarify the info above?

1. Obviously I can't speak for others, but ours is significantly lighter than stock. 50+ pounds less, directly over the front wheels.

2. Most allow 275mm or larger tires.

[Steve1968LS2]

If you factor in the fact that you can use a stock F body LSx oil pan and stock accessories with the AME subframe (not sure about DSE but probably the same case) savings can increase significantly, assuming you can live with the stock accessories. The AME subframe also allows you to bolt on C5 Z06 brakes for significant savings over Wilwood or Baer. My build is a budget build and I chose this "low bling" path to get excellent performance and an affordable LSx conversion.

Don

To be fair the ATS spindles also allow the use of inexpensive C5/C6 brakes. But I get what you're trying to say :)

It all depends on what you whan and what you're trying to achieve.

[Mkelcy]

I'm not sure of all the performance gains that all the after market subframes has, but I know that the Speed Tech subframe does have some. Here's what it say on their website about it:

Speed Tech Performance is proud to announce the addition of our new 1968-1974 Nova Sub Frame. The subframe is an affordable direct replacement for you’re worn out old subframe. Speed Tech Performance’s subframe offers the benefits of. Rack and pinion Rear steer, sway bar, built in guildstrand mod, coil over shocks and.... you can reuse all your current Aftermarket suspension components, brakes and wheels. Or upgrade to our new HI Clearance control arm set (included in complete sub frame kit) The Sub frame accepts Small and Big Blocks using the stock oil pan and also accepts the LSx series using the ATS (American Touring Specialities)oil pan and motor mount adaptors.

The other nice things about this one is with their set up, you can run up to 10" wide rims on the front and the subframe only weighs 125 pounds. I can tell you from first hand experience, this subframe is quite a bit lighter than the stock one. I have both sitting in my shop. Frank at Prodigy Customs used the first Speed Tech subframe on Project Emptynest. I know all the other companies such as AME and DSE have great products and no one can argue that. Speed Tech has brought out a great new product into a market where there is some strong competition. They have a good product that does provide performance gains and like they say, is affordable. The complete subframe package runs $4700 and then you can add the ATS spindles if you want. I just know that I have had two sets of their control arms and the subframe now and am very impressed with it. I'm just adding my 2 cents. I think it's a great product and worth considering.

Several comments: So far as I can tell the front end geometry improvements the Speed Tech subframe offers are the same as the Guldstrand mod on a stock subframe. That may be enough for many folks, and is certainly sufficient for me on my current driver.

For those looking for more than the correction available with the Guldstrand mod, however - as many who replace their subframes are - you'd have to go further and spend more. The Speed Tech subframe also allows you also to locate the UCA at the stock mounting location. I expect that to get front end geometry improvements similar to those built into the DSE and AME subframes, you'd also - as you suggest - have to get the ATS tall spindles, or SC&C's tall ball joints - so for apples to apples cost comparisons, I think you'd need to include the cost of one of those two stock subframe geometry solutions as well. If you include the ATS pieces, the cost of the Speed Tech subframe is now more nearly $5600 or so, and the cost advantage is pretty much wiped out. Couple that for folks who already have aftermarket control arms, etc. which could be sold, and I don't see cost as a reason to pick the Speed Tech subframe over either the DSE or AME pieces.

Now many people mght not need the latest front end geometry corrections, and that last bit of correction may or may not show up on the pavement, but if I were starting a new build and had no aftermarket parts, I'd certainly go DSE or AME before going Speed Tech. Both DSE and AME offer better front end geometry out of the box, the easy ability to mount big brakes, and front rack & pinion steering. And as noted above, even if I had a lot invested in aftermarket front suspension parts, I think it's still hard to justify the Speed Tech piece on a cost basis.

As for weight, I can move my stock subframe aorund pretty easily; I struggle a bit with my 21st Century subframe, which I would guess is a little heavier but with a lot more of the weight (and the structure) concentrated in the crossmembers that go between the front wheels. I'm not sure "lighter" is always better for a car designed to handle rather than drag race.

I'm still not aware of any real head-to-head tests of any of these subframe solutions, so claims of performance improvements are more based on a particular driver's impression of how a car with a given subframe performs than anything anyone's done with a stopwatch. The few cases in which the same cars have been on the same pavement on the same day (RTTH), despite the variables of engines, brakes, tires, transmissions, etc., show that all the available solutions are breathtakingly close in real world results.

Finally, I know about the general reputations of DSE and AME for engineering and building great products. The Speed Tech subframe, basically replicating the 40 year old factory geometry and the 40 year old fix (the Guldstrand mod) seems just a step behind without further correction such as the ATS tall spindles.

YMMV.

[Vegas69]

DSE winning the Autocross 4 events in a row says alot about that subframe and it's engineering. Especially when they drove it long distance to at least one event.

[Steve Chryssos]

Some random thoughts on subframe selection. There's more to it than just price and bumpsteer/camber gain: In no particular order.
-Price (Parts AND Labor, if applicable)
-Geometry
-Front steer rack vs rear steer box (This, to me is the most important distinction. I just find the front steer rack cars easier to drive. That's a personal opinion)
-Application
-Ride height and ground clearance
-Kit contents
-Spring type (coil vs coil-over vs airbag)
-Shock specs and brand.
-Spindle type (stock, AFX, C4, C5, C6, or Mustang II)
-Frame Rail Strength/triangulation
-Oil Pan Clearance
-Engine mounting method.
-Wheel size and backspace options.
-Header clearance (There is all kinds of room for headers and steering linkage once the steering box is out of the way)
-Appearance (sleeper vs. custom)
-Age & history (A stock sub is 40 years old. Not a big deal, but new is new. A lot can happen to a frame in 40 years. Check yours thoroughly for damage and rust before making a decision)
-Customer Support (This is HUGE!)
-Weight (biggest gains are in steering gear area)
-Freight Cost.
-Packing Method (I know one guy who bought a powdercoated sub and it arrived scratched. Ask companies how the product is packaged for shipment.
-Real world vehicle testing?
-PONR (Point of No Return-- No not porn. PONR. There is something about yanking a subframe that tends to cause a project to spiral out of control. You sit there, staring at half a car, and think....let's change EVERYTHING!)

I'm sure I missed a couple of talking points. Hopefully others will add to the list. I wouldn't even know how to prioritize the list order. I suggest you take this list, consume it and then pick the brains of ALL of subframe manufacturers as well the upgrade companies. If a company cannot provide intelligent and intelligible responses on each and every one of these talking points--hang up the phone, cross them off the list, and call the next source. Regardless of how the list gets prioritized, I would have to put pre and post sale Customer Service at the top. A solid working relationship will make all the difference.

[Mkelcy]

Good list.

[dhutton]

To be fair the ATS spindles also allow the use of inexpensive C5/C6 brakes. But I get what you're trying to say :)



Agreed. Sometimes I get a little carried away talking about my subframe. :) What I should have said is that by "downgrading" on my brakes a little I was able to further offset the cost of the new subframe.

Don

[silver69camaro]

I'm still not aware of any real head-to-head tests of any of these subframe solutions, so claims of performance improvements are more based on a particular driver's impression of how a car with a given subframe performs than anything anyone's done with a stopwatch. The few cases in which the same cars have been on the same pavement on the same day (RTTH), despite the variables of engines, brakes, tires, transmissions, etc., show that all the available solutions are breathtakingly close in real world results.


I don't think you'll ever see a definitive, back-to-back testing of aftermarket subframes. For a proper test, you need to eliminate all variables and use sophisticated equipment. Use one car, one set of tires, one driver. Fortunately, we’ll never see that. Here’s why:

Magazine tests can only provide quantitative results. Everybody wants numbers anyway; only just a few of them really know what they mean and what they can do with it. Who cares if X subframe has .020" less bumpsteer than Y? Most people do not understand that .080” bumpsteer at 2” compression means absolutely nothing about how it will handle at a 0.750 compression, 1.5* roll, 10* steer, and 0.5* pitch (read: corner entry). It just doesn’t matter, but people continue to focus on simple compression/rebound bumpsteer. Emphasis needs to be placed on the whole driving experience instead. How does it ride? Steering weight? Feedback? Turn-in response? What does it do for the COG? Is the handling predictable?

Many people say they want race car performance. 98% of those actually don’t, they just think they do. Race cars are noisy, bumpy, fatiguing, and just plain uncomfortable on the street. I challenge anybody here to install spherical bushings at every control arm mounting location and live with it for 5,000 miles. It sucks, trust me. Race cars are fun on the track and that’s about it.

Ultimate performance should not be your key decision making choice anyway. Take this article for a good example:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/coupes/2008_bmw_m3_vs_2009_nissan_gt_r_vs_2008_porsche_91 1_turbo_comparison_test

This is a comparative test against the M3, the almost-unbelievable Nissan GT-R, and Porche 911 turbo. Guess what? The slowest car came out on top, the M3. Why? Drivability. The ability for the driver to control the vehicle. That’s what is important, not massive tires and copious amounts of horsepower.

When I designed the suspension for our F-Body clip, 1/3 of my time was spent on the numbers, the rest was on drivability. I’m not saying we’re the only company that puts this emphasis on drivability, but it’s something we feel is extremely important. We all understand, however, that this performance metric is difficult to convey to a customer and they need some “proof” of performance before they lay down their hard-earned money.

[Steve Chryssos]

.....
Emphasis needs to be placed on the whole driving experience instead. How does it ride? Steering weight? Feedback? Turn-in response? What does it do for the COG? Is the handling predictable?

That's a smart man. And there's another way of looking at it. The capable manufacturers have all incorporated good geometry. It's to the point where the differences are non-existent on the street and under most track day circumstances (i.e. 8/10ths). So from a geometry standpoint, the top manufacturers have essentially cancelled each other out. Geometry? Check!

Instead of price and geometry, call 'em all up and ask them for the exact header brand and part number to use along with their solution. Or call up and ask for the spring installed height.




When I designed the suspension for our F-Body clip, 1/3 of my time was spent on the numbers, the rest was on drivability. I’m not saying we’re the only company that puts this emphasis on drivability, but it’s something we feel is extremely important. We all understand, however, that this performance metric is difficult to convey to a customer and they need some “proof” of performance before they lay down their hard-earned money.

There he goes again! He's a freakin' genius. He must have taken smart pills today. Drivability is key. Translated, that means:
-Which solution is easiest to drive fast?
-Which solution will make me look good as a driver?

Of course geometry is a critical part of that equation. But so is post installation setup. All of our combinations are different, so an all iron big block requires a different setup than an all aluminum LSx. Intended usage varies as well. Companies that have genuinely tested their products will be better equipped to help you dial in your car. That's where the customer service and proven track record (excuse the pun) become critical.

Unfortunately, drivability is subjective and therefore hard to quantify. I read that same Car & Driver article and found it a little annoying. My interpretation was that the gizmo'd up Nissan was too easy to drive and therefore less engaging. Since my driving skills are lacking, I can use all the help I can get. See? Subjective.

[68TTT]

i agree that there is a lot more that goes into this than just performance. i have never implied that i was planning on racing this car but i do plan on pushing it hard around my fav. set of twisties and a bit on the track days. but if a bunch of people had nothing but trouble trying to get a new control arms to fit in the factory location, ect, ect. this would be the type of info a "do-it-myself" kind of person could use in trying to decide if a new, built and tested setup might be worth its weight in gold over spending hours mixing parts just to find out you have made a mess and stressed yourself out for no reason. but if you can get a great (and when i say great i mean i want to feel the confidence that you get from a new sports car) suspension from just bolt-ons it might not be worth it to change the whole sub-frame. one thing for sure... you know your existing subframe will bolt right up to the car, no surprises.
isn't getting that new car feel in an old car the whole point of this pro-touring thing anyhow??
the other thing is if there is a new sub that could fix or prevent some problem that i don't know to even look for... like if you put a 600 horse motor with a good set of sticky tires and solid motor mounts, you are going to twist the factory sub.

as for my honest to god truth of what i am going to do with this car... i'm going to drive it. and drive it hard. tulsa, ok has some pot holes that could swallow a civic. and i don't want to have to rebuild it in the next 5 years. if you guys think that just upgrading the factory will provide the kind of fun you only get from busting your knuckles and finding out it worked the first time. then thats good enough for me.

[Steve Chryssos]

Welcome to the top of the bell curve Mostly street driving with some track time seems to be the norm. Your favorite set of twisties will be limited to about 70mph in the turns. Loading is not maxed out in this environment. I know lots of people who thought their cars handled great until they hit an autocross or road course. That's where the real suspension loads take place. But at the top of the bell curve, you can go either way.
Companies like American Touring Specialties can supply parts that will take the guesswork out of upgrading a stock clip. The first step to upgrading an OE clip is assessment. Pull the clip, sandblast it and study it thoroughly. Again, 40 years is a long time. Look for evidence of wrecks or rust. Check to see if the Duke Boys used your car to jump any bridges. Evidence will appear as subtle dents in the sides of the main rails. Crossmember damage will appear as well, but it is more common. Examine every weld and measure the clip for squareness. If it all looks good, you CAN achieve modern sports car handling with an upgraded stock clip. The one things you CAN'T achieve with a stock clip is a front steer rack and extra wide tires.

If a front steer rack is part of your "modern sports car" mandate, then you found your first reason to choose an aftermarket clip. Now you can start hyper-analyzing each clips features. Here are some examples of features that are not commonly discussed. I'll try to randomly pick brands and features, so as to not play favorites:

-Study the spring pockets on the Detroit Speed clip. They chose to heavily reinforce this area.
-Art Morrison employs mandrel bent frame rails
-21st Century offers bolt on headers
-SpeedTech lets you use OE clip parts but adds a front steer rack.
-Jake's Rod Shop has a lower ride height that's part of a more race oriented geometry set.

All of these solutions work well. I listed the above features to get you into a comparison mindset. Call all of these shops and pick their brains.

[David Pozzi]

-SpeedTech lets you use OE clip parts but adds a front steer rack.

Steve, I believe the Speed Tech rack is a rear steer setup.

[68TTT]

god i love this site! every opinion has actually been worth listening to. i want to do the dse sub but if i can find the same performance out of something cheaper i will be all over it.

[dhutton]

Steve, I believe the Speed Tech rack is a rear steer setup.

I think Speed Tech offers a version with the Unisteer rack setup.

Don

[Steve Chryssos]

I stand corrected. Sorry, Rear steer.

[Steve Chryssos]

god i love this site! every opinion has actually been worth listening to. i want to do the dse sub but if i can find the same performance out of something cheaper i will be all over it.

You guys are lucky to have so many great options. I own one of the hobby's very first aftermarket subframes. Purchased 10 years ago. In total, I'm embarrassed to say that it has cost me more than $15,000 over the years to make it work well. And, from a benchracing standpoint, there's plenty of room for improvement. Here are some pix:

http://homepage.mac.com/streetfytr/rearsprings/PhotoAlbum59.html

[dhutton]

I stand corrected. Sorry, Rear steer.

Here is their rear steer rack on their website. I think it is Unisteer:

http://www.speedtech-performance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=158/category_id=-1/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd158.htm

Don

[Marcus SC&C]

I may as well throw my $.02 in. We sell both one of the better aftermarket subframes (Chassisworks) and bolt on packages for the stock subframe using either the ATS tall aluminum spindles or stock spindles. In our shop we`ve worked with and installed most of the other suspension parts for these cars as well and had the chance to drive many of the cars back to back. Personally I`ve never been too impressed by fluff. If you`re building a points judged show car super smooth frame rails may be a priority but they`ll do nothing for performance. Tubular arms are easy to fabricate and look neat so manufacturers use them. There`s no guarantee that they`ll improve performance at all though. The same is true for coil overs,a poorly thought out conversion can be an anti performance mod. I`m not into brand bashing but at least two of the subframe discussed here have no geometry mods beyond using their version of the old G mod. It`s a step in the right direction but a small one. If you`re building a subframe from scratch why not make it a LOT better than stock. Why not make it as good as a new BMW M5? I have a lot of respect for Matt and AME,they`re one of the few places taking more of a clean sheet approach with their newer systems.
That said let`s look at the stock 1st Gen subframe. It`s already pretty light. I can easily carry one around by myself. If I were building a road race car I`d want it lighter but I`d also add upper structure tying it into the cage to add rigidity so the lower part could be made a lot lighter. But we`re not talking about road race cars here. Okay,how about the geometry? It flat out blows. Everything is pretty much upside down and backwards. How hard is it to fix? These days not hard at all. If we`re content to get the geometry in the same league (actually better) than a 2002 Z28 or TransAm it can be done with simple bolt ons like an AFX tall spindle package or StreetComp Stage-2-Plus with stock spindles. (BTW using the AFX tall spindle WITH the G Mod is not a good idea!) Make sure your steering linkage is in good shape and bolt in a Lee 670 box and you`ve got really good steering feel too. As good as a new Ferrari? No. But better than most newer GM performance cars. Add some performance rate springs (pick from many good options) and a good set of shocks (even out of the box Bilsteins will impress most drivers) and you`ve got a pretty darn good front end for between $1600 and $2200. The geometry of this hypothetical front end will be BETTER than many of the aftermarket subframes on the market. On the average let`s say we`ve improved the geometry,performance potential and drivability of the stock subframe by 80%. These setups properly tuned can already outperform a 2002 Z28 or new GTO or for that matter most drivers in a C5 Corvette. We have clients doing that in auto cross and open course road racing all the time.
Like anything else you eventually reach and pass the point of diminishing returns. An aftermarket subframe isn`t going to add 100% more performance or drivability for 100% more money than a very good bolt on package no matter who makes it. You may get 10 or 15 % better performance and/or drivability on the outside or it may not work as well as the bolt on package depending on which one you choose. If that maybe 10 or 15% improvment is worth it to you and you really believe you`ll be able to tell the difference,or you`ve just got to have the slightly wider front tires and you have the extra money then you should absolutely go for it and get the aftermarket subframe. Hey why not? Just do your research and choose wisely.
If not then that extra money may be much better spent on paint and body work,the motor and trans,new seats or even a new dining room table or something for the wife so she gets off your case and lets you play with your car more.
:angel:
It`s all about getting the parts that are going to work best for you and fit your budget and what kind of car you have. All this applies to a 1st Gen F body. On the other hand if you`ve got a `62-`67 Chevy II for the love of God get yourself a good aftermarket subframe! :) Mark SC&C