Is this a Detroit Speed copy?

[ls1 nova]

Found this on Ebay and it looks alot like a DSE fake or copy. Uppers and lowers for $585? Anybody seen these?








http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-1969-1970-1971-1972-Nova-Tubular-Control-Arms_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34200QQihZ003QQite mZ130230327511QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[dropit69]

hmm look alot like them and great price i emailed him about what brand they are see what they say ..

[ls1 nova]

Looks like they took a pic of the Dse arms I just purcased minus the coilover pocket and the decal. I would be afraid of what I would get in the mail. Do wish I had $600 to blow just to check it out. Sure does look identical.

[68sixspeed]

there is a discusion on these on camaros.net; offshore copies being sold by a few different people now; I'd be hesitant though, the results of a material or weld failure would be bad, plus copy-cats and offshore stuff, well, don't get me going...

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127967

[68Formula]

Had a been a member of that other forum, here is what I would have posted:

First, it is really only possible to answer one of those questions which is the general fit. Functional feedback will be mostly subjective. Usually most people are making more than one change besides the arms, so it would be impossible to determine if the improvement is due to one, several, or a combination of factors. They are also normally replacing semi-worn or completely worn out parts with new. So are you comparing improved design or newer parts? And unless they are doing back to back with similar designs there cannot be any feedback as to whether they are just better than stock or comparable to a proven aftermarket design. As for durability, it would take (hopefully) more than just a few laps around a track or a couple hundred miles to determine robustness so don’t expect those answers anytime soon.

That being said, I would like to comment on the differences between R&D-Research and Development vs. R&D-Rob and Duplicate.

With true R&D a lot of development costs go into designing the product. This of course varies company to company but there is some minimal work involved. The term “computer designed” is a very broad term that is often used to give a sense of technology to the product. But this can mean just basically using a computer aided drafting software package (CAD) which is not too large an investment, or it can mean to include extensive simulation and modelling for performance and durability (including FEA, suspension software, thermal analysis, hydraulics in some cases, etc). Together this can cost tens of thousands of dollars both in time, hardware, and software. In addition, bench and vehicle tests need to be setup to verify function and durability again costing tens of thousands of dollars both in test equipment and manhours (not to mention time to develop accurate test procedures). They also perform stack-up analysis for proper function under all conditions. Nominal parts rarely happen in production, so engineers have to make sure variation will not affect function or durability. These are known as tolerances and can be at times less than a few 10ths of a millimeter! Similar investments can be applied to the manufacturing principles where studies are done before full production can be released.
This costs a lot but ensures a robust design. All that has to be recovered in piece cost. Plus where does the capital come from to develop new parts? Comes from sales of the parts already developed. If the original developer goes out of business because he's getting outsold by a knock-off, who is going to invest in new products? Certainly not the copier.

I cannot speak for all the companies that have developed their own product, but my experience with DSE is that they encompass all the aforementioned techniques which means I can depend on their parts whether I use them on a track or just cruising down the street with the family. And it allows them to bring me new products in the future. A Mom and Pop shop might just make a fixture, build a few parts, throw them on a car for a few measurements, and call it a day. That doesn’t cost much. If you consider this the business model then yes it would seem the cost above the basic manufacturing is overkill. But it doesn’t say much for the quality or durability of the parts.

With Rob and Duplicate a handful of parts are obtained. They are measured using various techniques. As I said before parts in production are not perfect. Therefore they are starting by measuring imperfect parts. This determines their nominal. And not only is it based on imperfect parts, but it’s based on measurement errors as well. Then on top of that they have their tolerance variation in the tooling. Sometime tolerances dictate which processes are used (machined instead of cast, punched instead of drilled, etc.) A cheap offshore will use the cheapest process and tooling possible thus your parts designed from imperfect nominal values is only held to tooling tolerances which may not be as good as the original. They may even allow more wear before updating the tooling. See how that varation adds up? Also keep in mind they will change the materials to reduce cost too, without verifying the design effect since they do not understand it anyway (only copied). Sometimes they will delete features to save cost too (chamfers, radii, etc.), making the part weaker or lessening the functionality. I have even seen times where they copied things on an assembly that are akin to the human appendage (it serves no function in their construction). (This can happen when they don’t include all the features of the original, or when the original has a feature simply because it was built into the tooling because two generations of product are built on the same line). This is how (along with low overhead) the pricing can be so cheap). This shows that they really don’t take the time to understand the design.

Is this “competition” (which is extremely unfair) really a benefit to the American consumer?

Let’s look simple economics as a country. To make money income must be greater than spending. Money is earned by products or services. Spending within the U.S. doesn’t hurt the economy but it doesn’t help either because no outside money is coming it’s just in circulation. If you buy offshore products your money goes to a retailer, distributor, and the rest goes offshore. That does hurt us. I guess that’s okay though, because we will get that money back in the form of loans from the countries we gave our money too in the first place (that was sarcasm btw).

Since they are so inexpensive, more and more moves offshore meaning less is built here and exported from here. Not only is money flowing out, but jobs as well. The economic power is shifting. Whereas before it was much slower, the new rate at which products are shifting offshore is exponential.

Ask some of our unemployed brethren on this board how they feel about “offshore competition.” Oh wait, they probably aren’t here because they have no money to spend on their cars. Gee, won’t it suck when that’s you?

[6'9"Witha69]

Looks exactly like DSE as they are the only ones I know using the eccentrics for the UCA mounting holes to give various Caster settings w/o use of extra shims in the rear bolt.

[silver69camaro]

The term “computer designed” is a very broad term that is often used to give a sense of technology to the product. But this can mean just basically using a computer aided drafting software package (CAD) which is not too large an investment, or it can mean to include extensive simulation and modelling for performance and durability (including FEA, suspension software, thermal analysis, hydraulics in some cases, etc). Together this can cost tens of thousands of dollars both in time, hardware, and software.

Amen! There a huge difference from being just CAD designed to using FEA validation software and geometry analysis. Huge up-front capital investment for the software, not including the computing power and knowledge necessary to run a complex FEA analysis.

Typically, an FEA analysis of a full chassis takes 22 hours with all four processors working 100%. But the information it spits out is worth the wait.

[Lowend]

God I hate clone artists... they hurt the entire automotive community by taking money away from the companies who actually DO R&D on their products.

*******s

[Cruiser]

There is a post from DSE in that thread.

[David Pozzi]

Here is the team Camaro thread on it: http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127967

Here is a reply from Kyle Tucker about the arms, page 9.

Re: Hi/Tec tubular control arms
It has come to our attention that imitation Detroit Speed and Engineering control arms are being sold in the marketplace. I want to make it perfectly clear that Detroit Speed does not endorse these control arms. They are not manufactured by Detroit Speed, nor do they contain any Detroit Speed components. Just by reviewing the photographs on the internet, we can clearly identify 12 differences in the upper control arms and 6 differences in the lower control arms. I am sure there would be more if we could disect the arms. My point is they look similar to Detroit Speed control arms but are not.
Good competition is great for the consumer and good for the industry. However, this is not competition. This is a devaluation of our industry and degrades other manufacturers, as well.
At Detroit Speed we place customer service at a high level as well as available inventory that is ready to ship when customers or dealers place orders. We have an Engineering and R&D department, qualtiy control, validation as well as a graphics and marketing team, a purchasing deparment and a sales team. This is in addition to all people at our facility that manufacture the components. They are talented and dedicated people that make quality components day in and day out. This all makes overhead that takes money to pay for, this is not free to anyone. The person that shortcircuits design and testing also shortcircuits quality, reliability, and availability. We support the magazines and internet sites; as well as, shows and events we all attend because we are car people and like to drive, race, build and participate like anyone else. We are at the events to meet people, get feedback, and all of this to improve our business and our end product.
With current products and future products in development, we have had the opportunity to quote overseas. However, Detroit Speed prides itself on products manufactured in the United States. We have made a conscious decision to spend more dollars to manufacture in the United States, so that we can confidently stand behind our products from a quality and reliability standpoint. We have confirmed that many products can cost 10X more to manufacture in the US compared to overseas. However, many of our products are structural components that we will not risk your safety on selling a cheaper part to compete with others.
We know our products are not for everyone. We hope that we will be considered, and that you will consider the level of effort that goes into each and every part we design and manufacture. Either way, we will continue to provide the best customer service, quality, and innovative designs with integrity. We will continue to push the envelope for the industry and stay in front of those who copy.

Kyle Tucker
Detroit Speed

[Steve1968LS2]

God I hate clone artists... they hurt the entire automotive community by taking money away from the companies who actually DO R&D on their products.

*******s

I agree.. I don't care it the parts are exactly the same. It's just wrong to take someones part, send it China (or wherever) and have copies made.

Of course the company can sell it cheap since they didn't have to invest in any engineering. It's just wrong from a moral sense.

Plus what you're really doing when you buy a product like that is helping put fellow Americans out of work. Why? to save a few bucks. If the cycle goes on long enough then the true innovators close up shop and all we're left with it the overseas copies, and NO new designs since they don't have anyone to copy any longer.

[DLinson]

It is truly frustrating when you see products on the market are a complete copy of yours. I'm a mechanical engineer for Hunter Engineering and every year at SEMA/APEX we see more copies of our equipment. One company copied every last detail of one of our adapters. They even copied our vendor's logo in their casting. What we did find out on some of the copies is that they don't know the materials, tolerancing, finishes, etc. that are necessary for a product that will function properly for a long time.

It is usually expected to see some of these copies at the APEX show in the Asian section. They usually copy our older outdated equipment. The one that upset me the most is a wheel adapter and accessories that I designed for wheel alignment. Snap-on has and almost identical copy of my adapter design. I can't believe another American vendor would actually do this to another. They changed the design only enough to adapt their equipment to my adapter design. Some people keep telling me that imitation is the greatest form of flattery. That's a bunch of CRAP!!! Grant it we feed off of each other for ideas but we wouldn't copy a product verbatim. We continue to research and develop new products to make sure we stay on top.

At SEMA/APEX they have a group of lawyers on hand to deal with the copyright infringement issues and companies have been tossed out of the show or at least they had to remove the infringing equipment. Launch is a company that is the worst. Besides copying the my adapters they even copied parts of our software. Some of our software engineers were able to get a copy of their program and found files that were directly copied from our programs into theirs without any modification. The file name, size, date, were all the same. That product was definitely removed from their booth and us as well as Snap-on threatened legal action if they try to produce it in the US. Unfortunately, they can sell to whomever they want on the world market which isn't good. We sell our alignment equipment on every continent accept Antarctica. If they are allowed to produce and sell to other countries, that affects us as well.

I wish there was more that Kyle could do to stop the sale of that copied product. I wander if they have patents on their control arm cross bars and the offset inserts for adjustments. I doubt that you could patent a control arm design in general but you could patent novel ideas of control arm.

The other problem is the cost to defend your patents. Our company can afford to pay layers to go after others; smaller companies may not be able to do so.

So if anyone is considering purchasing the control arms on E-bay, shame on you. You are justifying these people to steel other people's designs and their R&D.

I better stop before I get too worked up.

Dennis

[68Formula]

I like this quote from the other forum:

"Let the tests happen and let the comsumers decide. If they are junk then people will stop buying them and the guy will quite making or importing them. That simple."

No it's not that simple. It takes a very long time for the poor reputation to develop, but only a short time to effect the original company financially. By the time it catches up to him the damage is done. Secondly, the reputation of the copy can damage that of the original. For example, one guy said he hated "Holleys" because of his latest carb problem. Much farther down in the posts, we find out it was a Demon carb. His response when basically they are the same thing. That attitude can really damage a company not responsible for that product.